[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

I think what he is saying is that in his opinion the workers at the plant should have been able to avoid the problem with the spent fuel pool at reactor no.4. I don't think I have sufficient information enough on what other problems they had at the time, how easily they could detect said problems at no.4 and how many workers were available, to comment on that. I will however say that in my opinion when the tsunami struck and they lost main and back-up power for their primary cooling devices, TEPCO and the government should have immediately worked together to get a whole bunch of equipment and people out there, in case they were needed.

How exactly? Unless things have changed the fires is what caused them to heat up and they have been trying to cool since then so?

[CTLance]

exactly what the NRC does in the US.

...for the US. Then there's the heap of other, highly localized national agencies. None of them really have any say in what goes on in other countries. Plus, no offense, but neither are those feared everywhere, nor do they have wideranging powers. They usually report to politicians, which in turn are free to fuck things up as much as they want.

As a bonus, I bet dollars to donuts that given a choice, e.g. a German nuclear watchdog would get into a heated fistfight with e.g. one of the NRC guys over everything starting from semantics to safety margins to what constitutes a safe number and design of automated failsafe devices. We need to get that shit unified so not a single country or company can just up and go "fuck you guys my way is cheaper".

As I said, European mindset. Huge bureaucracy, amazing theory, will probably fall apart in practice. But still.

[jakonovski]

Fun Fact: In Chernobyl, there was an explosion INSIDE the reactor core. Due to this fact, the conditions in and around the plant are nothing like they are in this scenario.

Indeed.

[FlashFlooder]

I think what he is saying is that in his opinion the workers at the plant should have been able to avoid the problem with the spent fuel pool at reactor no.4.

While I agree with that opinion, I can also see why the spent fuel was at the bottom of a long list of concerns.

That said, at about the time the first fire broke out at the pool, they should've addressed it.

[FlashFlooder]

How exactly? Unless things have changed the fires is what caused them to heat up and they have been trying to cool since then so?

No one really knows. More likely scenario, though, is that enough water evaporated and they themselves caused the fire.

[BudokaiMR2]

Seriously, watch this! It's the closest footage we've got I think. http://www.ustream.tv/channel/iwj7 I'm unsure whether it's live or not. They seem to show some footage, loop that a few times, show new footage, loop that a few times and they keep doing that. Probably they're going through the footage in sectioned loops.

This stream was insane. holy fuck that place got leveled.

according to the stream they are breaking the vid apart on NHK live right now. Turning on the tv.

[FlashFlooder]

...for the US. Then there's the heap of other, highly localized national agencies. None of them really have any say in what goes on in other countries. Plus, no offense, but neither are those feared everywhere, nor do they have wideranging powers. They usually report to politicians, which in turn are free to fuck things up as much as they want. As a bonus, I bet dollars to donuts that given a choice, e.g. a German nuclear watchdog would get into a heated fistfight with e.g. one of the NRC guys over everything starting from semantics to safety margins to what constitutes a safe number and design of automated failsafe devices. We need to get that shit unified so not a single country or company can just up and go "fuck you guys my way is cheaper". As I said, European mindset. Huge bureaucracy, amazing theory, will probably fall apart in practice. But still.

I agree with you 100%

Except the part about the NRC not being feared anywhere and not having any real power. They do not have to report to politicians and have the authority to shut you down on the spot if they find violations.

"We're from the NRC, we're here to help" is a long running joke in the industry. When they show up they generally fuck your world up.

[dgenx]

ok just woke up, any big news???
transformers?? cockroachers driving stuff, wtf???

[Giriath_89]

ok just woke up, any big news??? transformers?? cockroachers driving stuff, wtf???

Everything exploded. What you are seeing are the many alternate dimensions where cockroaches drive and giant transformer drills exist, as we go bye-bye.

Not really. They're still trying to cool the spent fuel pool at reactor no.4. Good news is a power line that will enable them to get the primary cooling running again is reported to be on the way.

[Kai Dracon]

Limbaugh's bizarre rant reminds me of a time years and years ago, on his early radio show, he suddenly burst out about how the environmentalist want us to sacrifice ourselves to "save the earth" because of the "so-called intelligent dolphin". Dolphins, really?, he said. Then went on to say that if the dolphin was so intelligent, why didn't it have civilization? We build hospitals, Limbaugh said. We are a little more important than dolphins.

And yes, it was in that manner which isn't actually sarcasm, but is a serious attempt at a logical rebuttal.

Secret: Rush Limbaugh is not actually human. He is a spiral cut honey ham wearing a power suit ala Earthworm Jim. Unfortunately, they were all out of slim, muscular suits and had to give the ham the bloated douchebag redneck suit.

[FlashFlooder]

Limbaugh's bizarre rant reminds me of a time years and years ago, on his early radio show, he suddenly burst out about how the environmentalist want us to sacrifice ourselves to "save the earth" because of the "so-called intelligent dolphin". Dolphins, really?, he said. Then went on to say that if the dolphin was so intelligent, why didn't it have civilization? We build hospitals, Limbaugh said. We are a little more important than dolphins. And yes, it was in that manner which isn't actually sarcasm, but is a serious attempt at a logical rebuttal. Secret: Rush Limbaugh is not actually human. He is a spiral cut honey ham wearing a power suit ala Earthworm Jim. Unfortunately, they were all out of slim, muscular suits and had to give the ham the bloated douchebag redneck suit.

A++ would read again.

[Yamauchi]

So, the helicopter crews were exposed to 60 mSv in the few short minutes they swooped overhead. Shite. Still safe for the crews, but it gives you an idea of how intense the radiation is coming out of the reactors.

And, as already noted, radiation levels are rising in the plant's admin building and the stand-by building for the plant's workers.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/79033.html

[mclaren777]

If the spent rods start to burn, huge amounts of radioactive material would be released into the atmosphere and would disperse across the Northern Hemisphere. Unlike the reactors, spent fuel pools are not—repeat not—housed in any sort of hardened or sealed containment structures. Rather, the fuel rods are packed tightly together in pools of water that are often several stories above ground. “With damaged [fuel rod] pools, we are talking about things that were never considered a credible threat,” said Alvarez. Aileen Mioko Smith, director of Green Action Kyoto, met Fukushima plant and government officials in August 2010. “At the plant they seemed to dismiss our concerns about spent fuel pools,” said Mioko Smith. “At the prefecture, they were very worried but had no plan for how to deal with it.” Remarkably, that is the norm—both in Japan and in the United States. Spent fuel pools at Fukushima are not equipped with backup water-circulation systems or backup generators for the water-circulation system they do have. The exact same design flaw is in place at Vermont Yankee, a nuclear plant of the same GE design as the Fukushima reactors. At Fukushima each reactor has between 60 and 83 tons of spent fuel rods stored next to them. Vermont Yankee has a staggering 690 tons of spent fuel rods on site.

Source

So clearly Operation Forklift wouldn't have worked given that the pool is above the reactor, but I still maintain that the concrete injector would be a brilliant solution to this problem, even now. The driver/operator would be several stories below the lip of the pool and would probably only need a permanent breathing apparatus (firefighter, SCUBA, etc) to maintain his safety.

[Giriath_89]

I agree with you 100% Except the part about the NRC not being feared anywhere and not having any real power. They do not have to report to politicians and have the authority to shut you down on the spot if they find violations. "We're from the NRC, we're here to help" is a long running joke in the industry. When they show up they generally fuck your world up.

Where does the NRC get its funding though? As most things in business go, I imagine they're only allowed to fuck the nuclear industry's world up when it's a good thing for those that created and maintain the agency.

[FlashFlooder]

Vermont Yankee has a staggering 690 tons of spent fuel rods on site.

most of which is harmless and in dry casks, but I guess that doesn't sound as scary.

The media has gone from irresponsible to just plain despicable in reporting this thing.

[FlashFlooder]

Where does the NRC get its funding though? As most things in business go, I imagine they're only allowed to fuck the nuclear industry's world up when it's a good thing for those that created and maintain the agency.

C'mon now. They're funded by the government. What incentive does the government have to let its nuclear power program slip into dangerous territory?

I'm as avid a fan of conspiracy theories as the next guy, but that doesn't even make any sense.

[jakonovski]

"Big business cuts corners - disaster ensues" seems to be the motivation wolf-ish theme of the '10s.

[E-phonk]

the helicopter video of fukushima that was released by tepco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBXqiw6EJUk

[Giriath_89]

most of which is harmless and in dry casks, but I guess that doesn't sound as scary. The media has gone from irresponsible to just plain despicable in reporting this thing.

I love it when you're online Flash. How dangerous are cooled spent fuel rods, really? What would it take for them to release significant amounts of radiation, and what would it take for that to travel far away?

IIRC you've said before that the alloy casing (Zincalloy?) on them can't burn and doesn't easily tear off. So is it fine if these dry casks are destroyed by fire or explosion and the cooled rods are exposed to open air and/or explosive pressures and fire?

[iamaustrian]

Source So clearly Operation Forklift wouldn't have worked given that the pool is above the reactor, but I still maintain that the concrete injector would be a brilliant solution to this problem, even now. The driver/operator would be several stories below the lip of the pool and would probably only need a permanent breathing apparatus (firefighter, SCUBA, etc) to maintain his safety. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/e3yqc.png[IMG]

I dunno.
if a helicopter gets 60 mSv by just flying over the plant.. those concrete injectors have a limited range.

my idea:
.)one end of the (long) fire hose attached to the helicopter.
.) heli flys over plant and lowers the hose with a cable winch directly over/into the pool.
.) firefighters/whoever pump the water directly into pool from a long and safe distance

[Alucrid]

C'mon now. They're funded by the government. What incentive does the government have to let its nuclear power program slip into dangerous territory? I'm as avid a fan of conspiracy theories as the next guy, but that doesn't even make any sense.

Hey maaaan, the government is like, always out to get you maaaan. They're like on the corporate leash maaaan.

[Norml]

the helicopter video of fukushima that was released by tepco http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBXqiw6EJUk

Some caps of 4.

[Raistlin]

ok just woke up, any big news??? transformers?? cockroachers driving stuff, wtf???

[Yamauchi]

Greenpeace notes the serious inconsistencies in the reported radiation levels.

Levels above reactors reported as 4.13 “mSv” at 1000 feet and 87.7 “mSv” at 300 feet. The statements by the government and the Tepco spokespeople seem to contradict the reported values. The helicopters are equipped with lead panels and crews wearing protective gear, but were unable to hover above the reactors to improve accuracy and had to pull back after only 15 minutes, yet the government-authorised emergency dose limit of 250 mSv/h would allow the crews to stay at 1000 feet for 48 hours, even without shielding.

http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...igh/blog/33792

[Graphics Horse]

"Big business cuts corners - disaster ensues" seems to be the motivation wolf-ish theme of the '10s.

Potential for human error in any private or public organisation should never be trivialised.

I mean, look what happened to the Mars Climate Orbiter.
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msp98/news/mco990930.html

[FlashFlooder]

I love it when you're online Flash. How dangerous are cooled spent fuel rods, really? What would it take for them to release significant amounts of radiation, and what would it take for that to travel far away? IIRC you've said before that the alloy casing (Zincalloy?) on them can't burn and doesn't easily tear off. So is it fine if these dry casks are destroyed by fire or explosion and the cooled rods are exposed to open air and/or explosive pressures and fire?

Depending on how long the rods have been in there, they may or may not contain enough residual energy to self-ignite. Worst case is they catch on fire, that fire burns and release radioactively charged particulates into the air. THIS is what most people are thinking is happening when they see these "radiological plumes" in the news. Right now, that is just steam from the explosions with slight TRACES of contaminants. Yes, it's radiological... but it will also disperse before it has the chance to cause any damage. A fire from the fuel rods would be a different story. I still HIGHLY doubt that it could travel all the way across the Pacific, but I could see it being a problem if the wind changes direction.

The dry casks will not be destroyed. Period. Search and you will find video of tests where they are hit with a freight train going FAST and they survive without a scratch. This is among other tests they performed.

Most people don't really understand radiation. You can be at a plant wearing a dosimeter and the thing is going full tilt, then you duck out of the way and it goes to 0.

[Dali]

Come on. The nuclear power fear mongering over this event has been in overdrive. Public support is dead, or at the very best pushed back for decades.

I had the feeling this is what was going to happen. I can't be sure but I think it was I that made the initial comment tat sparked the debate and ultimately lead to the nuclear spinoff thread. It was going to inevitably happen, but I think I get extra daliadamus cred regardles.

[Giriath_89]

C'mon now. They're funded by the government. What incentive does the government have to let its nuclear power program slip into dangerous territory? I'm as avid a fan of conspiracy theories as the next guy, but that doesn't even make any sense.

They don't, when things go wrong. But they have a very big interest in letting the nuclear power program continue, and at a cheap cost, and if that means taking risks they will.

I highly doubt safety is their number one priority, unless it's how safe the money is. If it was, not a single reactor design would be approved that hadn't undergone meticulous safety assessments by an organization like the NRC.

The Mark 1 design would not exist, and spent fuel pools would be very protected in the case of power failure and have numerous alternative coolants on-site and available to quickly be driven in from elsewhere in the case the on-site ones fail or are destroyed.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Greenpeace notes the serious inconsistencies in the reported radiation levels. http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...igh/blog/33792

Greenpeace is not a group I would consider useful or accurate to cite from anything in this matter. They're just trying to use this for their bullshit agenda.

[speculawyer]

Some caps of 4.

So how do you think this fuel pool in the above reactor complex is doing? No leaks, right? Sure.

U.S. officials, meanwhile, said Unit 4 also was seriously at risk. U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Chairman Gregory Jaczko said at a congressional hearing in Washington that all the water was gone from that unit's spent fuel pool. Jaczko said anyone who gets close to the plant could face potentially lethal doses of radiation. "We believe radiation levels are extremely high," he said. Tokyo Electric executives said Thursday that they believed the rods in that pool were covered with water, but an official with Japan's nuclear safety agency later expressed skepticism about that and moved closer to the U.S. position. "Considering the amount of radiation released in the area, the fuel rods are more likely to be exposed than to be covered," Yuichi Sato said. Emergency workers were forced to temporarily retreat from the plant Wednesday when radiation levels soared, losing precious time. While the levels later dropped, they were still too high to let workers get close. The storage pools need a constant source of cooling water. Even when removed from reactors, uranium rods are still extremely hot and must be cooled for months, possibly longer, to prevent them from heating up again and emitting radioactivity.

[KuroNeeko]

Honestly... I would risk my life in a radiation suit if I could hand deliver a piece of radioactive material up Limbaugh's ass. just give me the motherfucking chance. fucking douche bag.

Don't let us down, soldier!
We'll pour out a cold one if you fall!

[Fjolle]

Greenpeace notes the serious inconsistencies in the reported radiation levels. http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...igh/blog/33792

Greenpeace are retarded.

It's not 250 mSv/h. It's 250 mSv total.
The helicopters were much closer than 1000 ft, and i would guess that the radiation is higher straight up where it isn't obstructed by concrete etc.

[jcm]

Some caps of 4.

Doesn't that look too dark to be steam? It looks like something is on fire again.

Greenpeace is not a group I would consider useful or accurate to cite from anything in this matter. They're just trying to use this for their bullshit agenda.

They're no worse than bravenewclimate, just the opposite. Read them both, and assume the truth is in between them.

[mclaren777]

Some caps of 4.

Something isn't right. Either that video is labeled them backwards or this model is labeled backwards.

[hydragonwarrior]

Some insight into the fuel ponds: http://atomicinsights.blogspot.com/2...r-dr-greg.html

[Graphics Horse]

So how do you think this fuel pool in the above reactor complex is doing? No leaks, right? Sure.

This is what I've been asking for a few days, are the walls further inside than the diagram suggests? Is it stronger on one side than the other? Why has reactor 3 collapsed below the roof area? No answers yet.

[Alucrid]

This is what I've been asking for a few days, are the walls further inside than the diagram suggests? Is it stronger on one side than the other? Why has reactor 3 collapsed below the roof area? No answers yet.

Sorry, I'll get my contact at the plant on it.

[crazy monkey]

Source for above pick for once and all




can some one translate the photo is the date same?

[speculawyer]

Something isn't right. Either that video is labeled them backwards or this model is labeled backwards.

The picture is from the other side.

[ant1532]

Source for above pick for once and all can some one translate the photo is the date same?

that second picture is taken about 200 feet back.

[Priz]

ok just woke up, any big news??? transformers?? cockroachers driving stuff, wtf???

From the VERY NSFW (article is fine, surrounding images aren't) Sankaku site, there's an article on Operation Tomodachi (Friend) and the comments by 2ch folks in regards to this.

Basically, you know how the people in the really affected areas are almost completely without food/water/etc. ? That's what this is.

“As expected of our friends!” “USA! USA!” “They’re so handsome. It’s like a movie, really.” “I could cry. We’re truly grateful, America!” “Sorry we were so hard-hearted. It seems America was our only friend after all.” “They are really used to this stuff, aren’t they?” “They really are too cool. What is this sense of security I feel…” “Please make Japan a state.” “Guys who have seen actual combat are in a different class.” “They are heroes, seriously.” “As expected of our master! Japan will remain by your side as your Pochi forever!” “Rather than seeing our government’s incomprehensible press conferences, seeing the US army on the ground is much more reassuring.” “The SDF isn’t bad, but seeing this you can really tell how badly Japanese lack decisiveness.” “I got wet when I saw this on the news. America can have me any time!” “They seriously look too cool! USA!! USA!! USA!! USA!!” “The USA is truly Japan’s ally!” “If God made the world into a feature film America would be the protagonist.” “Americans may be stupidly optimistic but they are certainly brave and believe in justice.” “It’s amusing that we can rely on another nation’s armed forces more than we can our own government…” “I cried!”

Full Flickr set of the pictures.

Video as well.

[Graphics Horse]

Sorry, I'll get my contact at the plant on it.

OK

[speculawyer]

Where are those robots?

TOKYO (Reuters) – Japan may build robots to play the violin, run marathons and preside over weddings, but it has not deployed any of the machines to help repair its crippled reactors. While robots are commonplace in the nuclear power industry, with EU engineers building one that can climb walls through radioactive fields, the electric power company running Japan's Fukushima Dai-ichi plant has not deployed any for the nuclear emergency. Instead, its skeleton team has been given the unenviable and perhaps deadly task of cooling reactors and spent nuclear fuel on their own, only taking breaks to avoid over-exposure.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_quake_japan_robots

[Giriath_89]

So how do you think this fuel pool in the above reactor complex is doing? No leaks, right? Sure.

I don't there's any information at all about the integrity of the fuel rods. If they are damaged, that's apparently when you will get the significant leaks.

If there is little water in the pool to keep the rods cool, then local radiation may make it difficult for the workers to approach, if I have understood things correctly.

If the smoke we have been seeing is steam, that would indicate that there is some water, but that it is boiling, and more water is desperately needed.

[DoctorWho]

[ can some one translate the photo is the date same?

Time is the same.

[crazy monkey]

Time is the same.

perfacto some people on my facebook got served,

[FlashFlooder]

They don't, when things go wrong. But they have a very big interest in letting the nuclear power program continue, and at a cheap cost, and if that means taking risks they will. I highly doubt safety is their number one priority, unless it's how safe the money is. If it was, not a single reactor design would be approved that hadn't undergone meticulous safety assessments by an organization like the NRC. The Mark 1 design would not exist, and spent fuel pools would be very protected in the case of power failure and have numerous alternative coolants on-site and available to quickly be driven in from elsewhere in the case the on-site ones fail or are destroyed.

One big disaster or even close-call at one of the plants they oversee in the US = no more money at all. Our program would screech to a complete halt, I have no doubt about it. If anything they have incentive to bust people's balls. Their personal paycheck depends on it. So, in a sense, it IS the safety of their money at stake.

I can't speak for the rest of the world, but in the US every single design is scrutinized for YEARS. I'm talking teams of hundreds of people, both on the designer side and the NRC side picking the thing apart in more detail than you can imagine. Only then is the design approved.

The Mark I is a piece of shit. There, I said it. The nuclear industry relies heavily on what we call "lessons learned". The lessons learned from TMI prevented the building of any more reactors that were susceptible to the kinds of problems we're seeing here AND forced the installation of additional systems to prevent similar scenarios.

[mclaren777]

Something isn't right. Either that video is labeled them backwards or this model is labeled backwards.

According to the model, this is what building 4 looks like...

[Fjolle]

Where are those robots? http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_quake_japan_robots

Electronics and radiation don't mix.

[Raistlin]

“As expected of our friends!” “USA! USA!” “They’re so handsome. It’s like a movie, really.” “I could cry. We’re truly grateful, America!” “Sorry we were so hard-hearted. It seems America was our only friend after all.” “They are really used to this stuff, aren’t they?” “They really are too cool. What is this sense of security I feel…” “Please make Japan a state.” “Guys who have seen actual combat are in a different class.” “They are heroes, seriously.” “As expected of our master! Japan will remain by your side as your Pochi forever!” “Rather than seeing our government’s incomprehensible press conferences, seeing the US army on the ground is much more reassuring.” “The SDF isn’t bad, but seeing this you can really tell how badly Japanese lack decisiveness.” “I got wet when I saw this on the news. America can have me any time!” “They seriously look too cool! USA!! USA!! USA!! USA!!” “The USA is truly Japan’s ally!” “If God made the world into a feature film America would be the protagonist.” “Americans may be stupidly optimistic but they are certainly brave and believe in justice.” “It’s amusing that we can rely on another nation’s armed forces more than we can our own government…” “I cried!”

Wait ... please explain the context of this to me. That's real, and not an attempt at sarcasm (or worse)?