[JGS]

Ottoman, I'm not interested at all in a Muslim vs. Christianity discussion so I've largely stayed out of it. I was just going to say that you are very good at explaining your beliefs and it's very appreciated. A large part of the problem in debating Christians is the certainty at which some (& I'll include myself) are in their beliefs even if they don't believe in one another's individual beliefs.

You asked some pretty decent questions so I was going to for my take on them since they are pretty different and some on the answers are not necessarily universal in thought..

So he was suprised when it happened?

Surprised would not be the apt word since he knew it was in the realm of possibility. This is not the same thing as destiny though. It was just the beginning of choice for man.

I don't believe that God can be harmed in any way. There is no way that God can be in a state of loss. Therefore the idea that God could 'lay down his life' is as bizarre as it is anthropomorphic.

This is definitely true in the physical sense. He can be at a loss emotionally &/or strategically. The fact that things are not as he wants them to be now is indication of that. Being at a loss isn't the same as losing though since the losing he has faced is regarding the choices of his creation (Whether human or angelic)

Love is a strange word, certainly love is one of the words that describes him, however 'Merciful' is much more apt. Love can too easily imply some equality.

Love encompasses everything else including mercy. Love for his followers explains the adverse judgement of his & their enemies. Love for justice explains why imperfections prevent eternal life without an equivalent sacrifice. Principled love drive a lot of what God does. Mercy is just an extention of it .

That doesn't sound very clear. Is this the orthodox position? That as God was the cause of the fall, he had the solution on hand, a somehow pre-crucified son?

That verse is translated differently across Bibles. Even the quoted verse acknowledes an alternate view which appears far more correct.

b.Revelation 13:8 Or written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain

As mentioned, God didn't cause the fall, but he did have a solution in place from the get go that punished the wicked (The context of that scripture) that never altered.

Basically from the founding of the world, God had a standard in place that prevented the wicked to survive. This included Adam, but does not include those written in the slain lamb's (Jesus) book of life

[Game Analyst]

Introduction to Revelation Chapter 2

Chapter 2 We come now to the second section of the Book of Revelation, which deals with “the things which are” (Revelation 1:19). As he addresses the seven churches of which he was an overseer, John paints a portrait of church history in its entirety. The seven messages that follow have a four-fold application.… First, they are to be applied locally. The cities of the seven churches are given in the order of an ancient Roman postal circuit. Thus, they could be easily circulated among the churches addressed. Second, they apply ecclesiastically. Anyone who cares about the church or is involved with the church needs to study these letters because every problem, difficulty, and challenge facing the church is addressed in these seven letters. Third, they apply personally. These letters apply to us individually. How do I know? Because each letter ends with “Let he that hath an ear, hear what the Spirit saith.” Thus, this applies to anyone who has an ear. If you have two ears, it’s a double directive! Fourth, the letters apply prophetically. For us today, most of the events are history because we’re approaching the end of the church age. But for John, at the beginning of the church age, the events of which he wrote had not yet transpired. In addition to a four-fold application, there is also a four-element pattern seen in each letter.… First, there is positive affirmation, where Jesus finds something to affirm in the churches. Second, there is corrective exhortation. Third, there is an eternal motivation. And finally, there is partial revelation—as each of the churches reveals something of the nature of Christ. You see, the only way we’re going to see the complete picture is to embrace the church in totality. That’s what is so important about the body of Christ. As I look at the body, each person exhibits a unique aspect of Jesus Christ. It takes the whole body to truly magnify the Lord. That’s why the psalmist said, “O magnify the Lord with me” (see Psalm 34:3). May we be those who embrace other believers and other churches because they each reveal something of Him.

Taken from Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1670). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

[Emwitus]

God is omnipresent. He sees the end from the beginning and he created a man with free will. I believe he foresaw what man would do but since he had free will, it was his choice and not predestined. I'm of the opinion that no man would want to spend an eternity with a God he despises. God gave us that choice to make, whether we want to live an eternity with him of our own free will. But in doing so provided a means to lessen our burden to achieve it.

[AgentP]

God is omnipresent. He sees the end from the beginning and he created a man with free will. I believe he foresaw what man would do but since he had free will, it was his choice and not predestined. I'm of the opinion that no man would want to spend an eternity with a God he despises. God gave us that choice to make, whether we want to live an eternity with him of our own free will. But in doing so provided a means to lessen our burden to achieve it.

Nonsense. Apologist nonsense. Free will is an illusion, just like your god.

[Emwitus]

Actually, i'll bite. My God is a living God. Merciful and just. The alpha and omega, beginning and end. No matter what man thinks of him he still loves man whom he created and gives everyone an opportunity to seek him and find him.

[JGS]

Nonsense. Apologist nonsense. Free will is an illusion, just like your god.

Meh, God made you say that...

[Dude Abides]

A talking snake is not mentioned in the Qur'an. The eating of the fruit was not the cause of the fall, nor was it what imparted knowledge of good and evil to humanity. They already knew of both. The two are not a dichotomy, even in evolutionary theory we all share two common ancestors. There is a scholarly discussion currently occurring amongst Muslim scholars in relation to evolution. The position of some is that it is impermissable to believe in any form. The position of others is that it is permissable to believe that it occurred in all cases save that of humanity (as long as one believes that Allah is the source of all cause and effect relationships). The position of others is that it is permissable to believe in all cases, again with the caveat that God is the source of all perceptions of cause and effect. I am of the last group, though as there is no consensus I cannot claim that any above is the orthodox position, it is still very much an undecided position amongst the Ulema (scholars).

Interesting. Thanks for your answers.

[mrbagdt]

Meh, God made you say that...

haha

[likedamaster]

Actually, i'll bite. My God is a living God. Merciful and just. The alpha and omega, beginning and end. No matter what man thinks of him he still loves man whom he created and gives everyone an opportunity to seek him and find him.

I'm sold. Didn't know you were a believer(are you?), and you had this knowledge.

[archnemesis]

The two are not a dichotomy, even in evolutionary theory we all share two common ancestors.

This is false. We never went through a such a narrow evolutionary bottleneck. You can learn more about it here and here.

[Fedos]

That doesn't sound very clear. Is this the orthodox position? That as God was the cause of the fall, he had the solution on hand, a somehow pre-crucified son?

Perhaps this passage in 1 Peter 1: 19-20 is more clear:

'But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,'

So God foreknew that man would fall in the garden and he appointed the Son to die in the place of fallen humanity.

[Orayn]

This is false. We never went through a such a narrow evolutionary bottleneck. You can learn more about it here and here.

It's a bit of a stretch, but we do have Mitochonrdrial Eve.

[archnemesis]

That's true, but the name is a bit misleading since "One of the misconceptions of mitochondrial Eve is that since all women alive today descended in a direct unbroken female line from her that she was the only woman alive at the time. Nuclear DNA studies indicate that the size of the ancient human population never dropped below tens of thousands."

[OttomanScribe]

Ottoman, I'm not interested at all in a Muslim vs. Christianity discussion so I've largely stayed out of it. I was just going to say that you are very good at explaining your beliefs and it's very appreciated. A large part of the problem in debating Christians is the certainty at which some (& I'll include myself) are in their beliefs even if they don't believe in one another's individual beliefs.

Thankyou :)

Surprised would not be the apt word since he knew it was in the realm of possibility. This is not the same thing as destiny though. It was just the beginning of choice for man.

What was said was 'God's intent was that humanity remain without sin'. I feel like it is impossible for God's intent to be disrupted in any way. What God intends, is what occurs, and what God does not intend, does not occur.

This is definitely true in the physical sense. He can be at a loss emotionally &/or strategically. The fact that things are not as he wants them to be now is indication of that. Being at a loss isn't the same as losing though since the losing he has faced is regarding the choices of his creation (Whether human or angelic)

He can? How does God be at a loss emotionally or strategically? It sounds like so much anthropomorphism to me.

Love encompasses everything else including mercy. Love for his followers explains the adverse judgement of his & their enemies. Love for justice explains why imperfections prevent eternal life without an equivalent sacrifice. Principled love drive a lot of what God does. Mercy is just an extension of it .

I think that defining God almost exclusively by the attribute of God is dangerous. God is not some fluffy toy we can put in our puppet and call our friend. This is the God of mass extinction events, we say 'take refuge in God, from God, take refuge in the eye of the storm'.

That verse is translated differently across Bibles. Even the quoted verse acknowledes an alternate view which appears far more correct. As mentioned, God didn't cause the fall, but he did have a solution in place from the get go that punished the wicked (The context of that scripture) that never altered. Basically from the founding of the world, God had a standard in place that prevented the wicked to survive. This included Adam, but does not include those written in the slain lamb's (Jesus) book of life

Could you explain this further. I'm not sure that I understand.

This is false. We never went through a such a narrow evolutionary bottleneck. You can learn more about it here and here.

Sharing common ancestors =/= all being descendant from the same two ancestors.

Perhaps this passage in 1 Peter 1: 19-20 is more clear: 'But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,' So God foreknew that man would fall in the garden and he appointed the Son to die in the place of fallen humanity.

Being foreordained does not mean 'pre-existing'. Also that makes it sound as though Christ and God are separate.

[Pollux]

Being foreordained does not mean 'pre-existing'. Also that makes it sound as though Christ and God are separate.

They are separate. But they are not. They're like water, ice, and gas. All are H2O, but all are different forms. Jesus is the Word of God. The Word was with God in the beginning, along with God's Spirit and God himself. Thus, the Trinity. The Word is what took human form in Jesus Christ, thus the Son. The Holy Spirit is there as well. Not get best analogy but I'm on my phone, so others will have to take over from here.

[Fedos]

Being foreordained does not mean 'pre-existing'. Also that makes it sound as though Christ and God are separate.

The beginning of St. John says that Jesus was preexistent before the incarnation though. As to Christ and God being separate, the passage is not intimating a separateness in terms of divinity, it just denotes that God is a God of order. As the man in the family is the head of the wife, so too is the Father the head of the Son.

[Herpes Reasons]

Being foreordained does not mean 'pre-existing'. Also that makes it sound as though Christ and God are separate.

they are separate.
genesis 1:1

in the beginning was the word. and the word was with god. and the word was god.

key word here is 'with'. so clearly two separate beings.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father

Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

this passage refers to the "Holy One." in this chapter, also what ancient hebrew refer to as the messiah of israel. This passage states the Father will bear a son.

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

this is a prophecy about Israel having a son, and he will be called Everlasting father.
Everlasting father in this verse in hebrew is "'ab". which is the same word used to refer to the God of israel and the Word. and the word "mighty God" refers to well, you get it.
this passage clearly shows the mighty god and the father will become flesh.

[OttomanScribe]

I think that God does not change. I think that God is not divisible. There appears to be little elaboration of the concepts that you all describe in the Bible itself. Why does the Jewish tradition not have the idea of the trinity central to its understanding if God was unchanging? Why does the monotheism (flawed as it was) of Judaism, suddenly give way to the tripartite God of Christianity, if we assume that the Jews were once God's people?

Why is there not a clearer elaboration of the trinity within the Bible? Surely it would be something clearly stated in both Old and New testament if it was something so important, lest ambiguity occur... yet within the Christian community there seems to be a lot of discussion around this point.

It seems to me that the most logical explanation is that Jesus (alayhis salaam) was not a part of God, or his Son, or possessed by the spirit (as some early Christians believed) I think the most logical explanation for the lack of elaboration is that the creation of the divinity of Jesus (alayhis salaam) is a later thing. Hence all the hoop jumping needed. At the core of sound theology is simplicity. Christianity requires believers to concept complex and often contradictory theological points when it comes to monotheism. I think the clear explanation is the answer I gave before.

'Say: He is One!'.

I post this merely as a response to the earnest requests from Chrstians to see things their way. I think the way I see it is the way Christ saw it. It certainly doesn't require so much bashing around of the texts.

[JGS]

Thankyou :) What was said was 'God's intent was that humanity remain without sin'. I feel like it is impossible for God's intent to be disrupted in any way. What God intends, is what occurs, and what God does not intend, does not occur.

God's intent can be changed or else his enemies wouldn't even bother. God's overall plan (The one in place since the founding of the world) will not change, but the path to get there changed quite a bit.

He can? How does God be at a loss emotionally or strategically? It sounds like so much anthropomorphism to me.

Because God is emotional. He feels regret (Not in a mistake way), anger, he changes his mind, he feels the pain of his followers, he loves, he hates, & he does all this while reacting to his creation.

Because he allows his human & angelic creation to do as they wish unless he actually steps in (Something he rarely does except to accomplish his main goal), it is impossible for him to be strategically at a gain all the time. After all, Satan rules the world which would not be if God's will was carried out with certainty.

None of this has anything to do with his knowledge or power. No one can grasp that. In fact, we can't even grasp how God works in ways similar to us on that emotional level.

However, you may be correct in it being anthropomorphism, but I see it the opposite in that we are simply imperfect images of our creator.

I think that defining God almost exclusively by the attribute of God is dangerous. God is not some fluffy toy we can put in our puppet and call our friend. This is the God of mass extinction events, we say 'take refuge in God, from God, take refuge in the eye of the storm'.

That depends on how we view the attribute. True principled love (Agape), from a Biblical standpoint, is not so much an attribute as it is a skill to hone which is why it allows us to use other attributes in the best way possible &, in God's case, use them perfectly.

Could you explain this further. I'm not sure that I understand.

From the beginning God had in place a set of rules or standards that delineated between righteous actions and unrighteous ones. The simple rule of not eating from the tree is an example.

Once someone chooses to directly disobey God, what defines them as not worthy of his righteous standards for salvation does not change. You can't be perfect and imperfect. God will never change his mind in regarding what that standard is nor should he. As an aside, this has nothing to do with repentance which automatically works in the framework of being less than perfect.

The only way to fix things is by being perfect again, something that can only be accomplished by essentially buying the flaw- something Christians obviously believe the Lamb (Jesus) did.

[OttomanScribe]

God's intent can be changed or else his enemies wouldn't even bother. God's overall plan (The one in place since the founding of the world) will not change, but the path to get there changed quite a bit.

How does one go about being an enemy of God? How does a pre and post eternal creator change plans when He exists simultaneously, unchanging, at all points in time?

Because God is emotional. He feels regret (Not in a mistake way), anger, he changes his mind, he feels the pain of his followers, he loves, he hates, & he does all this while reacting to his creation.

Ugh. Waaaaay too anthropomorphic for me.

Because he allows his human & angelic creation to do as they wish unless he actually steps in (Something he rarely does except to accomplish his main goal), it is impossible for him to be strategically at a gain all the time. After all, Satan rules the world which would not be if God's will was carried out with certainty.

So Satan has some power outside the will of God? Things act outside the will of God at all?

None of this has anything to do with his knowledge or power. No one can grasp that. In fact, we can't even grasp how God works in ways similar to us on that emotional level.

Yet in asserting that it is the case, we create Michelangelo's image of God. We imagine some old man in the clouds, getting all frustrated and angry and sad and hurt etc. This is an image completely unfitting the majesty of God.

However, you may be correct in it being anthropomorphism, but I see it the opposite in that we are simply imperfect images of our creator.

We are uncomparable to the Creator. He is everything we are not. We are dependant, He is not.

From the beginning God had in place a set of rules or standards that delineated between righteous actions and unrighteous ones. The simple rule of not eating from the tree is an example. Once someone chooses to directly disobey God, what defines them as not worthy of his righteous standards for salvation does not change. You can't be perfect and imperfect. God will never change his mind in regarding what that standard is nor should he. As an aside, this has nothing to do with repentance which automatically works in the framework of being less than perfect. The only way to fix things is by being perfect again, something that can only be accomplished by essentially buying the flaw- something Christians obviously believe the Lamb (Jesus) did.

How can one 'buy the flaw'? What does that mean? If what is required is perfection, how can one have a 'proxy perfection'? If God is Just, why does he ask of us something that is completely unacheivable?

[Game Analyst]

The Church in Ephesus (A.D. 33 to A.D. 100)

Angel means messenger.

Revelation 2:1 (a) To the angel… Meaning “messenger,” it is most likely that the word angelous used here speaks of a pastor, or leader.

"The church of Ephesus speaks of the period of church history from A.D. 33 to A.D. 100."

Revelation 2:1 (b) …of the church of Ephesus… By A.D. 97—the year John recorded this book—the church was already a mess. The Book of Acts presents the model of the way the church was supposed to function. But Acts only covers a span of thirty years. By the time John penned Revelation a mere sixty years later, the purity of the church had been compromised to such a degree that they were in a position to hear the Lord say, “Unless you repent, I’ll not stay in your midst” (see verse 5). Those caught up in some of the so-called revivals of today say, “We can’t explain from the Bible what is happening in our church, but in earlier days, we read of people barking or shaking…” as they turn not to the Scriptures but to church history for justification of aberrant behavior. Let it be noted, precious people, that we can’t appeal to church history for practices of doctrine because the church has had problems from the very outset. I don’t ever defend church history. But I do defend the church as seen in the Book of Acts. Appeal only to the Bible, gang, because that’s where you find safety and sanity. You’re always on solid ground if you stick with Scripture.

Jesus describes Himself to the church at Ephesus.

Revelation 2:1 (c) …write, These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand… Who are the seven stars? The leaders of the seven churches. Revelation 2:1 (d) …who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands. Where is Jesus walking? In the midst of the church. You will meet Christians who say, “Well, I’m not into church.” That’s too bad, because Jesus is. “Yeah, but the churches around here are really hurting,” they’ll say. So were these. And yet Jesus was in their midst.

Jesus gives His affirmation to the church of Ephesus.

Revelation 2:2, 3 I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. Here, Jesus gives His affirmation. He says, “First of all, I affirm you for staying with the task. That is, you’ve worked hard. You haven’t fainted. Secondly, you’ve stood with the truth. You’ve rooted out the deceivers who have come into your midst.” On occasion, people will say to us as Christians, “Don’t judge me. Didn’t Jesus say to judge not lest ye be judged?” And I tell them He did. But I also remind them that fifteen verses later, He said, “Beware of false prophets who will come into your midst as wolves in sheep’s clothing. By their fruit you shall know them” (see Matthew 7:15-16). So what is Jesus saying? In Matthew 7:1, He says we’re not to judge for condemnation. In verse 15, however, we are instructed to judge for identification. If we only teach the Word, but don’t warn the flock about liars and deceivers, then we simply fatten people up for the kill. Part of the job of parenting and pastoring, part of the responsibility of any believer is to warn of false doctrine and false teachers.

Jesus, giving His corrective exhortation, tells the church of Ephesus that they had left their first love.

Revelation 2:4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. The corrective exhortation concerns the fact that, although they labored faithfully and showed discernment theologically, they had left their first love. Notice He doesn’t say they lost their first love. He says they left it.… While chopping trees for the expansion of their facility, the axe head of one of Elisha’s students flew into the Jordan River. Ever feel like the cutting edge is gone from your ministry, like the power is absent from your life? Since wood is biblically symbolic of the flesh, this guy with the wooden handle still in his grasp could have said, I can still make noise banging trees with the handle. Maybe no one will notice that nothing’s happening in the way of effective ministry.” But he didn’t. Instead, he did what Jesus tells you and me and those at Ephesus to do: he cried, “Master, it’s not there anymore. The cutting edge is gone.” “Take me to the place you had it last,” said Elisha. And the young man took Elisha to the edge of the river where he had last seen the axe head. Elisha ripped off a limb from a nearby tree, put it in the river, and miraculously, the axe head floated to the top. “There it is, son,” said Elisha. “Now reach in and grab it” (see 2 Kings 6:1-7). It’s a perfect picture of what Jesus is about to say to those at Ephesus and to those of us who have left our first love.…

What Jesus wants the church at Ephesus to do and how it applies to all believers who are not in love with the Lord anymore.

Revelation 2:5 (a) Remember therefore from where you have fallen… Remember how it felt to have the cutting edge, when you were passionate, when your walk was vibrant. Remember how it used to be when you had it last. Revelation 2:5 (b) …and repent… “Repent” simply means “change direction.” Revelation 2:5 (c) …and do the first works.… What were you doing when you were on fire for the Lord? “I was going to church.” Go again! “I was getting up early for morning devotions.” Do it again! “I sang praise to the Lord as I drove down the street.” Sing again! Remember how it used to be when you were amazed by the Lord’s goodness—do again what you were doing then, and you will see the cutting edge return. The injunction of Jesus is simple: Remember, repent, and return.

Jesus gives the church of Ephesus a warning about not repenting.

Revelation 2:5 (d) …or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. You may have lots of programs and lots of activities. You may even have doctrinal purity. But Jesus will not stay in a church where there is not true love because without love, nothing else matters (1 Corinthians 13:2).

Jesus hated the deeds/works of the Nicolaitans. What did the Nicolaitans teach?

Revelation 2:6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. “Nicos” meaning “conquest” and “laity” meaning “people of the church,” the Nicolaitans were evidently those who came on the scene, saying, “I will tell you who to marry, where to live, and what to do because I am your spiritual leader.” But what did Paul say? He said, “We do not seek to have dominion over you, but we are helpers of your joy” (see 2 Corinthians 1:24). Sometimes people say, “Pastor, I want you to know I’m submitted to you.” While I hear their heart, I say, “Don’t submit to me. I’ve got a tough enough time trying to figure out what I should do! I’d love to share with you from the Word and pray for you each day. But it’s Jesus alone to whom you must submit.”

Each of these letters to the seven churches were meant to speak to us individually, if we will only listen to what the Spirit says to us.

Revelation 2:7 Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. To everyone who is victorious I will give fruit from the tree of life in the paradise of God. What did the Ephesians lack? Love. What would they get if they changed their ways? The fruit of the tree of life, the fruit of the Spirit: love. Thus, the eternal motivation for the Ephesian church perfectly answered their greatest need.

The Church in Smyrna (A.D. 100 to A.D. 312)

The church in Smyrna represents the period in church history from A.D. 100 to A.D. 312.

Revelation 2:8, 9 (a) And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich)… The word “smyrna” comes from myrrh—a fragrance released only when crushed. At His birth, Jesus was presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Gold was for kings, frankincense for priests. But myrrh was a burial spice. Jesus is a King, yes. He is a Priest, indeed. But He’s also the Prophet who said, “Destroy this body and in three days, I will rise again” (see John 2:19). On the Cross, Jesus was presented with myrrh when a soldier offered it to Him to deaden His pain. Let Jesus’ refusal of the myrrh offered to Him on the Cross be an example to us in a culture that says, “Depressed? Take an antidepressant. Feel pain? Try this drug.” May we be those who, when the process of crushing takes place, let the Cross do its job. Myrrh was offered to Jesus a third time—when the women came Easter Sunday to put burial spices on His body. But He wasn’t there. He had risen. So, too, when Jesus returns in His Second Coming, Isaiah writes “all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the Lord” (see 60:6). The people of Sheba will bring gold for the King; frankincense for the Priest. But they won’t bring myrrh because when Jesus comes back, He’s not coming to die. He’s coming to rule and reign.

Jesus says to the church of Smyrna, "I know the blasphemy of those opposing you. They say they are Jews, but they are not, because their synagogue belongs to Satan." What does this mean?

Revelation 2:9 (b) …and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. In Smyrna, as in other places, Jews would sometimes take the heat of persecution off themselves by inciting the Romans against the Christians. They would present Communion in a wrong light by accusing believers of drinking blood and eating broken bodies. Thus, in God’s economy they were no more His people in reality than were the Christians who, in the Name of Christ, slaughtered Jews by hundreds of thousands during the Crusades. The pastor of the church at Smyrna was a man named Polycarp, the last man personally discipled by John. At eighty-six years of age, amidst one of the numerous waves of persecution, Polycarp was ordered to burn incense at the altar of Caesar. “How can I deny Him who has been faithful to me these six and eighty years?” he asked. Consequently, he was sentenced to burn at the stake. When the fire failed to come near him, however, a frustrated guard pierced Polycarp’s shoulder with his sword—inadvertently drawing blood, which put out the flame. At times, the only substance powerful enough to extinguish the fire of persecution was the blood of the saints.

Jesus says Satan is the one behind the attacks on the Christians of Smyrna.

Revelation 2:10 (a) Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. In the years A.D. 100 through A.D. 313, there were ten Roman emperors who correspond to the ten days spoken of here. They launched such massive attacks against the believers that between five and seven million Christians were killed during their rule.

What did enduring persecution do for the Christians of Smyrna?

Revelation 2:10 (b) Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. Notice that for this group, Jesus doesn’t have a corrective exhortation. Perhaps this is because by enduring persecution, they remained pure. But notice also that Jesus makes no promise to lighten their affliction. On the contrary, He says, “Go through the pain and crushing. Be faithful unto death.”

What is the second death?

Revelation 2:11 Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. Whoever is victorious will not be harmed by the second death. At the end of the Millennium, the unbeliever will be resurrected to stand before the Lord at the Great White Throne Judgment. There, his failure to believe on the Lord and his refusal to accept God’s payment for his sins will condemn him to outer darkness (Revelation 20:6). But for those who, like the church at Smyrna, stay true, the second death will have no effect.

Taken from Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1672). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

[JGS]

How does one go about being an enemy of God? How does a pre and post eternal creator change plans when He exists simultaneously, unchanging, at all points in time?

By going against his wishes or actually trying to fight against him.

Ugh. Waaaaay too anthropomorphic for me.

It's not really something for you to determine though. If the Koran describes God as an object than that's how it views him. However, Scripturally, there is no question that God is viewed an individual and interested in creating something in his image. So it shouldn't be too great of a shock when when can actually associate feelings and notions with our Creator.

So Satan has some power outside the will of God? Things act outside the will of God at all?

Of course.

Yet in asserting that it is the case, we create Michelangelo's image of God. We imagine some old man in the clouds, getting all frustrated and angry and sad and hurt etc. This is an image completely unfitting the majesty of God.

We don't have to picture God at all in that capacity. It doesn't affect his majesty unless, again, it is inanimate to begin with- like a mountain or a galaxy. If God is sentient at all and wiser and smarter than us at all, then he would reflect the emotions that we display. He would just do so perfectly. There is nothing wrong with god getting angry or sad and loving. Those aren't weaknesses to shun.

All we have to realize that God has specific wants and demands of his creation. They choose whether to honor that and either contemplate, ignore, or try to revolt against the potential consequences.

We are uncomparable to the Creator. He is everything we are not. We are dependant, He is not.

This is true I guess. We are uncomparable to a frog too, but we still share much of the same DNA. No one is suggesting that we become God just because he creates us in his image.

How can one 'buy the flaw'? What does that mean? If what is required is perfection, how can one have a 'proxy perfection'? If God is Just, why does he ask of us something that is completely unacheivable?

By the Ransom. There was no proxy perfection because Jesus wasn't really a substitute or a representative in relation to the sacrifice. He was the sacrifice- the price paid to buy back perfection.

Atonement costs are nothing new. Islam has atonement costs for sin. Secular governments have it too. Jesus' sacrifice is no different. It's merely a form of justice. God is Just by requiring it. Injustice would be to make rules up as you go along. For him not to require a replacing of the perfection lost would prove him to be the soft, weak old man that you think Michelangelo's picture conveys.

In terms of righteous standards, God cannot let bygones be bygones especially when they require salvation for people that want nothing to do with him and at the possible expense of persecuting the ones that do want to follow him.

[Herpes Reasons]

I think that God does not change. I think that God is not divisible. There appears to be little elaboration of the concepts that you all describe in the Bible itself. Why does the Jewish tradition not have the idea of the trinity central to its understanding if God was unchanging? Why does the monotheism (flawed as it was) of Judaism, suddenly give way to the tripartite God of Christianity, if we assume that the Jews were once God's people? Why is there not a clearer elaboration of the trinity within the Bible? Surely it would be something clearly stated in both Old and New testament if it was something so important, lest ambiguity occur... yet within the Christian community there seems to be a lot of discussion around this point. It seems to me that the most logical explanation is that Jesus (alayhis salaam) was not a part of God, or his Son, or possessed by the spirit (as some early Christians believed) I think the most logical explanation for the lack of elaboration is that the creation of the divinity of Jesus (alayhis salaam) is a later thing. Hence all the hoop jumping needed. At the core of sound theology is simplicity. Christianity requires believers to concept complex and often contradictory theological points when it comes to monotheism. I think the clear explanation is the answer I gave before. 'Say: He is One!'. I post this merely as a response to the earnest requests from Chrstians to see things their way. I think the way I see it is the way Christ saw it. It certainly doesn't require so much bashing around of the texts.

you sure think otherwise at the torah and new testament without giving an inkling of sound justification, just your obvious muslim take on jesus.
Give me an example of gross errors in the New testament of Jesus divinity?
Jesus said he is the Word, He said HE and the FAther are one. HE said no one goes to the father without him.

i gave you a snapshot of verses of the old testament of God becoming man. God having a son. there are over IIRC, 400 verses in the OT of a prophesied Messiah, God becoming man. God having a son. The word becoming flesh.

Better yet, site me anywhere of the 45,000 scroll manuscripts of the New testament where it says Jesus is not anyone but the son of god?

as for the whole trinity thing, that's very greek/western mindset.
although all 3 are spoken of in the old testament, the hebrews never called all 3 with one name. i tend not to even consider giving all 3 a name. trying to put God in a box is futile.
Heck, Genesis 1:1 is perplexing.

btw, the image below is Proverbs 30:4. referring to the Holy One, which is another name for God. its in hebrew and also in its original form and layout. The verse is asking the name of the son of God. And its actually answered within "His Name" with the name Yeshua. Yeshua is jesus in hebrew. and interestingly enough, it forms a cross.

Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and the name of his son? Tell me if you know!

[Game Analyst]

The Church in Pergamos (A.D. 313 to A.D. 600)

What does Pergamos mean? Objectionable marriage. The objectionable marriage of what? The objectionable marriage of Christianity and paganism.

Revelation 2:12 (a) And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write: The Greek prefix per, seen in words like “pervert,” means opposition. The suffix gamos, seen in words like “monogamy” or “bigamy,” means “marriage.” Pergamos, then, means “objectionable marriage”—a fitting description of the next phase of church history.… The year was A.D. 312. The last of the ten Roman emperors who had persecuted the church was dead, ushering in a power play for the reins of the empire. To this end, one young hopeful prepared to engage in a huge battle. According to legend, he saw a cross in the heavens and heard a voice saying, “In this sign conquer.” And as a result, young Constantine fell to his knees and became a born-again believer. According to history, however, what really happened was that, substantially outnumbered, Constantine noticed that Christians were not enlisting in anyone’s army. Realizing that if he converted to Christianity, he would have access to a potential infusion of new troops, he became a Christian. And the Christians responded by siding with him. But it would turn out to be an unmitigated disaster. As a result of Constantine’s Edict of Toleration, which forbade persecution of Christians, Christianity became the official religion of Rome. In fact, soon all Roman babies would be legally required to be baptized into the Christian faith. Yes, the Christians were in power, but, understanding the political expediency of concession, Constantine compromised with the pagan priests and traditions that permeated Rome. “I feel your pain,” he said. “Let’s find common ground. Let’s meet halfway.” So a marriage took place that was perhaps most clearly illustrated by the coin issued shortly thereafter. Christian symbols were stamped on one side of the coin and pagan symbols on the other. From A.D. 313 to A.D. 600, church and state worked together as a political power—and as a result the church began a downward spiral from which she has yet to recover, as we shall see.

What is Jesus talking about when he mentions "Satan’s thrown/seat"?

Revelation 2:12 (b), 13 (a) These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is… According to Greek mythology, Pergamos was the birthplace of Zeus. “Satan’s thrown” is in reference to the one hundred-fifty-foot-high structure dedicated to Zeus in the middle of the city of Pergamos.

Are we willing to die for Jesus?

Revelation 2:13 (b) …and you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. The historian Tertullian tells us that, because Antipas, a physician in the city of Pergamos, wouldn’t renounce his faith, he was fried to death.

Jesus tells the church of Pergamos that they had fallen into idolatry and immorality.

Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. You remember the story of Balaam. Asked by Moabite King Balak to pronounce a curse on the people of Israel, God forbade the prophet Balaam to go. But Balaam went anyway, and after a short discussion with a donkey, he wound up on a mountain overlooking the encamped Israelites upon whom he was to issue a curse. After three failed attempts, realizing he couldn’t curse them, Balaam resorted to an alternate plan. “If your women seduce the Israelite men,” he said to Balak, “they can introduce idol worship to them through which Israel will thereby bring a curse upon herself” (see Numbers 22). What, then, is the doctrine of Balaam? It is Pergamos: objectionable marriage with the world.

"What is the doctrine of the Nicolaitans? The title Nico-laitans has the idea of a proud authority, and a hierarchical separatism. The name Nikao-laos literally means “to conquer the people.” According to ancient commentators, the Nicolaitans also approved of immorality." - David Guzik

Revelation 2:15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Not only had the church in Pergamos embraced the marriage of church and state, but they embraced the Nicolaitans—the priests, pontiffs, and people who think they are infallible.

What is Jesus' solution for those caught in idolatry and immorality?

Revelation 2:16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth. How do you know who’s who or what’s what in a world so prone to the Pergamos tendency? Stick with the Word—with that which divides sin’s mind-set from that which is right eternally (Hebrews 4:12).

Jesus promises three things to those who overcome, by his strength, idolatry and immorality.

Revelation 2:17 (a) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes… Since the Pergamos mind-set was a mixture of political power and religious mystery, it is interesting to note the three things the Lord promised to those who overcome this tendency.… Revelation 2:17 (b) …I will give some of the hidden manna to eat… A young man in a hotel on the corner of Chicago’s 5th and Broadway prayed, “Lord, I’m not going to leave this room until you empower me.” Four days later, the Holy Spirit came upon him and D. L. Moody was empowered in such a way that he said, “Lord, if You don’t back off, I’m going to die of ecstasy.” Revelation 2:17 (c) …and I will give him a white stone… The secret ballot of John’s day was a stone. A black stone was “no”; a white stone “yes.” We still refer to this practice when we say someone was “blackballed.” Thus, Jesus was saying, “If you turn away from paganism, compromise, and the Pergamos mentality, I’ll give you a white stone, which means you’re not guilty; you’re righteous; you’re free.” Revelation 2:17 (d) …and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it. “If you’re looking for mystery,” says the Lord, “don’t look to worldly traditions. Look to Me, and I will give you hidden manna, a white stone, and a secret, pet name.” Watch out for the Pergamos mentality, gang. It’s tempting to seek political change—to make our voice heard, to get our candidates in, to make our agenda happen. But history proves that strange things happen when church and politics get in bed together. If we think the key is to engage ourselves in political activism in the Name of Jesus Christ, we are in danger of committing the same historic error. Watch out. Keep your focus on the kingdom. Keep your passion for Jesus. Keep true to the Word, and God will bless you with the manna of salvation, the white stone of acquittal and approval, a new name of special affection. On the island of Patmos, the Lord told John to write seven letters that were to be delivered to seven churches in Asia Minor. But evidently these churches did not receive or respond to the messages, for if you look at Asia Minor, or present-day Turkey, you see one of the most spiritually dark regions in the world. May the Lord help us and be merciful to us that we don’t simply take in these messages without personally embracing them. We now come to the fourth period—a period of time that begins in A.D. 600 and goes to the present. The following four churches—Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea—all represent churches on the earth today. How do we know this? Because it is to these churches that Jesus talks about His coming and about the Tribulation.

Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1674). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

[Game Analyst]

The Church in Thyatira (A.D. 600 - A.D. 1500)

The history of Thyatira.

Revelation 2:18 (a) And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: In Thyatira, we see a church emerge in the year A.D. 600, which will exert major influence on Martin Luther and the Reformers through A.D. 1500. This church still exists presently.

"Jesus first describes Himself with a title that emphasizes His deity"

Revelation 2:18 (b) These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass. This is the only time in the entire Book of Revelation that Jesus identifies Himself as the Son of God rather than as the Son of Man. He chooses this reference because fire and brass speak of judgment.

Jesus commends the Church of Thyatira.

Revelation 2:19 I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. Although Jesus is about to give a heavy word of judgment to the church at Thyatira, He first finds six areas in which to commend them.

Jesus calls out the woman Jezebel.

Revelation 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. Based on the account in Acts 16, wherein we read that Paul encountered a group of women worshiping by a riverside, it is very possible that the church at Thyatira was founded by a woman. However, in addition to being founded by a woman, the church at Thyatira was floundering because of a woman. A woman who called herself a prophetess had persuaded people to eat food sacrificed to idols. Her influence upon the church was reminiscent of one of the most ungodly women in Israel’s history.… Jezebel, daughter of Ethbaal, king of the Zidonians, was given to King Ahab of Israel, in marriage. Since Ethbaal was the high priest of Ashtaroth—goddess of sensuality and fertility—Jezebel’s background adversely influenced God’s people. For example, finding Ahab weeping one day, Jezebel asked the reason. “Our power is growing and our influence is increasing,” answered Ahab. “But a man named Naboth won’t sell me his property.” “If you’re the king, you should have it,” answered Jezebel. “Leave it to me.” So saying, she hired some men to falsely accuse Naboth of cursing God. And, following an inquisition and mock trial, Naboth was put to death (1 Kings 21). Thus, Ahab and Jezebel inherited the land in a power play and an inquisition—a microcosm of the grander scale we will see as the story of church history unfolds. “She was one of the most evil characters of the Old Testament, who attempted to combine the worship of Israel with the worship of the idol Baal... Jezebel herself had a most unenviable record of evil.” - Walvoord

Jesus says Jezebel essentially rejects the work of the Holy Spirit in her heart, calling her to repentance, by not repenting.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her time to repent of her fornication, and she did not repent. Keep in mind that fornication does not refer exclusively to physical relationships. It can refer, as it often does in the Old Testament, to a spiritual relationship with idolatry. This New Testament woman, following in the footsteps of her predecessor of old, was encouraging idolatry in the church at Thyatira.

Jesus warns the Church of Thyatira of the consequences of not repenting.

Revelation 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. If the Jezebel spirit, prone to idolatry, is not rejected and turned from, this church—representing not only a local congregation but an epoch in church history—will go into the Tribulation period. Revelation 2:23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. Not only Thyatira, but her offspring will also go through judgment and death as well.

What is the "depths of Satan"?

Revelation 2:24 Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. The “depths of Satan” speaks of the esoteric mystery of the false, cultic Babylonian religion. “We alone know the mysteries, the deep things,” said the Babylonian priests. But those who didn’t buy their line were exempt from God’s judgment. Background on the term "the depths of Satan": "In the days of the New Testament, many non-Christian religions (such as the Ophites and various Gnostic groups) said they knew the “deep things of Satan.” The ancient Christian writer Tertullian says that if you asked a Gnostic about their cosmic mysteries, they would furrow their brow and say, “it is deep.” It may be deep - but deep into a dangerous hole." - David Guzik

How do we know this is one of the churches of the end times or last days?

Revelation 2:25 But hold fast what you have till I come. “Till I come” is the first promise of Jesus’ return found in these letters to the seven churches. That’s how we know this church goes on to Jesus’ Second Coming.

“Those in Thyatira,” says Jesus, “who have not bought into the seductive teachings of Jezebel will be given nations to rule.”

Revelation 2:26, 27 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—as I also have received from My Father. What was Jezebel’s goal? Ahab and Jezebel united in marriage to increase their power by merging countries and joining religions. The result? As seen in the story of Naboth’s vineyard, they wielded power and gobbled up land. “If you’re not a part of the Jezebel mentality, you will rule and reign with Me,” Jesus says. “But if you try to do it in the spirit of Jezebel—through inquisition and manipulation—you’ll be cast into a bed with other harlots in the great Tribulation.” “The word for ‘rule’ (Gr. poimanei) means literally ‘to shepherd.’ Their rule will not be simply that of executing judgment, but also that of administering mercy and direction.” - Walvoord

The Old & New Testament image of Jesus.

Revelation 2:28 And I will give him the morning star. The Old Testament image of Jesus is as the Sun of Righteousness (Malachi 4:2). Here in the New Testament, He’s seen as the Morning Star (Revelation 22:16).

Does the church of Thyatira refer to the Catholic Church and can we still fall for the error of Thyatira today?

Revelation 2:29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Thyatira” speaks of “continual sacrifice.” You see, the Catholic Church traditionally, historically, and presently embraces the idea that in Communion, the elements are transformed into the literal, physical body of Christ in a process called transubstantiation. Thus, Catholic priests ensure that during the Mass, all of the wine is drunk and all of the bread eaten because they believe the elements are the actual body of Christ and, therefore, cannot be poured down the drain or thrown out. They think that the continual sacrifice of Christ is what really brings grace, or salvation—which is in direct contrast to what Jesus declared from the Cross when He cried, “It is finished” (John 19:30). The price is paid. The work is done (Hebrews 9:28). During the Inquisition Period from A.D. 600–A.D. 1500, the Catholic Church amassed great amounts of wealth through political power plays. Consequently, the Catholic Church is extremely wealthy due to their land holdings and banking system. Please hear my heart, folks, I’m not Catholic-bashing. This is history. For nine hundred years, vast amounts of money, property, and treasures were accumulated by keeping people in spiritual darkness.… For example, if you were going to a party on Saturday evening, you could buy an indulgence from a priest, and thus be “pre-forgiven” of any ensuing sin. During this time, the “doctrine of purgatory” was also developed, which stated one could speed up the process of the purging of a deceased loved one’s soul by buying candles and lighting them on his behalf. And even as Naboth was killed, so were tens of millions of believers—including Hugh Latimer and John Hus, followers of John Wycliffe. What did Wycliffe want to do? He said it wasn’t right that one had to go through a priest to get his sins forgiven. He said purgatory and the selling of indulgences were an abomination. He said the Mass being held in Latin—a language people couldn’t understand—was nothing of what Jesus was about. As the fire that would burn them at the stake was lit, John Hus turned to Hugh Latimer and said, “Today they are igniting a candle that will never go out.” Presently there are excellent Catholic churches and wonderful Catholic pastors. There are those who have not bought into the deception of Jezebel. There are substantial segments of the Catholic Church who love Jesus Christ and are not into the hocus-pocus imagery and idolatry that keep people away from knowing the Lord personally. On the other hand, much of the Catholic Church still has the Thyatira mentality—just as much of the Protestant Church is deader than a doornail, as we’ll see in the next chapter. What does this have to do with us? I think a whole lot because the error of Thyatira is possible today. We can also have idols. We can look to a church, a person, a program and say, “I’m going to put all my hope in that structure, or those guys”—no longer just loving the Lord, staying close to the Lord, getting our cues and directions from the Lord, but leaning on idols and structures and people. Likewise, there can be those who imply that the common people can’t understand the Bible because they have not attended seminary and therefore cannot grasp the intricacies of theology. Not true. While Greek and Hebrew can, indeed, help give illumination, the Book we hold in our hands was written for you and me, for the man and woman on the street. Don’t let anyone tell you that you can’t know God’s will or His heart, His ways or His Word. We must make sure we say no to idolatry, to systems of religion, to spiritual hierarchies. May God give us wisdom. May God help us to keep the focus on Jesus. May God give us the grace to keep it simple.

Taken from Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1676). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

[Tabris]

Will get back to you later, but could you answer this...

You've made some additional comments which I found interesting, but I'll have to address them later (this went way longer than I anticipated!). You're asking some great questions, and I encourage you to continue looking for the answers. Contrary to what some may say, we are not called to blind faith, but to put our

I would love to hear both of you answer the rest when you have a moment.

[Emwitus]

I think that God does not change. I think that God is not divisible. There appears to be little elaboration of the concepts that you all describe in the Bible itself. Why does the Jewish tradition not have the idea of the trinity central to its understanding if God was unchanging? Why does the monotheism (flawed as it was) of Judaism, suddenly give way to the tripartite God of Christianity, if we assume that the Jews were once God's people? Why is there not a clearer elaboration of the trinity within the Bible? Surely it would be something clearly stated in both Old and New testament if it was something so important, lest ambiguity occur... yet within the Christian community there seems to be a lot of discussion around this point. It seems to me that the most logical explanation is that Jesus (alayhis salaam) was not a part of God, or his Son, or possessed by the spirit (as some early Christians believed) I think the most logical explanation for the lack of elaboration is that the creation of the divinity of Jesus (alayhis salaam) is a later thing. Hence all the hoop jumping needed. At the core of sound theology is simplicity. Christianity requires believers to concept complex and often contradictory theological points when it comes to monotheism. I think the clear explanation is the answer I gave before. 'Say: He is One!'. I post this merely as a response to the earnest requests from Chrstians to see things their way. I think the way I see it is the way Christ saw it. It certainly doesn't require so much bashing around of the texts.

I guess i should add, contrary to what many people believe, not every christian agrees with the trinity. I for one do not. I grew up catholic then left to a pentecostal church in high school and even seventh-day adventist for a while. I try to read the bible for myself and though i also listen to teachers of the word too. Firmly believe in Jesus being the messiah and son of God who was sent to die for our sins.

[Gileadxv]

I would love to hear both of you answer the rest when you have a moment.

I'm going to be out of town for the entirety of this week, but I'll try to get to it when I get back.

[OttomanScribe]

By going against his wishes or actually trying to fight against him.

You seem to imply that such an act can change God's mind, or alter him in some way. Is that the case?

It's not really something for you to determine though. If the Koran describes God as an object than that's how it views him. However, Scripturally, there is no question that God is viewed an individual and interested in creating something in his image. So it shouldn't be too great of a shock when when can actually associate feelings and notions with our Creator.

I think that an antrhopomorphic creator is a rebellion against logic, not to mention the Jewish tradition from which Christianity stems. It is fine if you don't feel that way.

Islam does not describe God as an 'object', He is 'unlike created things', anthropomorphism is a Pharonic thing.

Of course.

This says that God is not all powerful.

We don't have to picture God at all in that capacity. It doesn't affect his majesty unless, again, it is inanimate to begin with- like a mountain or a galaxy. If God is sentient at all and wiser and smarter than us at all, then he would reflect the emotions that we display. He would just do so perfectly. There is nothing wrong with god getting angry or sad and loving. Those aren't weaknesses to shun.

A God of limited power, that looks like humans and acts like humans, isn't worthy of worship. You might as well worship Zeus or Thor. If God is comperable to us, then we are all merely different layers of Godliness, we are all God. God is nothing like us, His nature is Majesty and perfection. How can you combine such a base idea of human nature with a God that you believe is anything like us?

All we have to realize that God has specific wants and demands of his creation. They choose whether to honor that and either contemplate, ignore, or try to revolt against the potential consequences.

Yet all those things occur within the bounds of God's will, people can act with the assumption that they are in rebellion against God, but the reality is that they are not.

This is true I guess. We are uncomparable to a frog too, but we still share much of the same DNA. No one is suggesting that we become God just because he creates us in his image.

Ugh. The thought makes me shudder.

Saying that we share the same DNA is a point of comparison. It draws out similarities. Any attributes that we share with God are only those that indicate our contingent nature. We exist, and that is close to the end of the comparison.

By the Ransom. There was no proxy perfection because Jesus wasn't really a substitute or a representative in relation to the sacrifice. He was the sacrifice- the price paid to buy back perfection.

Explain further, I'm still not with you.

Atonement costs are nothing new. Islam has atonement costs for sin. Secular governments have it too. Jesus' sacrifice is no different. It's merely a form of justice. God is Just by requiring it. Injustice would be to make rules up as you go along. For him not to require a replacing of the perfection lost would prove him to be the soft, weak old man that you think Michelangelo's picture conveys.

Injustice is bringing humans into the world already lost, where the whole game depends entirely on the acceptance of some arbitrary and often unatainable statement of belief, based in theology that appears deliberately obtuse.

In terms of righteous standards, God cannot let bygones be bygones especially when they require salvation for people that want nothing to do with him and at the possible expense of persecuting the ones that do want to follow him.

Justice is not helding one man hostage for the crime of another.

[OttomanScribe]

you sure think otherwise at the torah and new testament without giving an inkling of sound justification, just your obvious muslim take on jesus. Give me an example of gross errors in the New testament of Jesus divinity? Jesus said he is the Word, He said HE and the FAther are one. HE said no one goes to the father without him.

What I asked for was a clear explanation of the trinity elaborated on in the Bible. I understand the idea of Jesus (alayhis salaam) as the Word, that does not make him God, just as none being able to access God unless through the Word is a sound idea that doesn't require an anthropomorphic God or a trinity either. The middle one you are going to need to elaborate a bit further.

i gave you a snapshot of verses of the old testament of God becoming man. God having a son. there are over IIRC, 400 verses in the OT of a prophesied Messiah, God becoming man. God having a son. The word becoming flesh.

Where?

Better yet, site me anywhere of the 45,000 scroll manuscripts of the New testament where it says Jesus is not anyone but the son of god?

Give me anywhere in the 45 000 scroll manuscripts where it says he is not a duck.

as for the whole trinity thing, that's very greek/western mindset. although all 3 are spoken of in the old testament, the hebrews never called all 3 with one name. i tend not to even consider giving all 3 a name. trying to put God in a box is futile. Heck, Genesis 1:1 is perplexing.

What?

btw, the image below is Proverbs 30:4. referring to the Holy One, which is another name for God. its in hebrew and also in its original form and layout. The verse is asking the name of the son of God. And its actually answered within "His Name" with the name Yeshua. Yeshua is jesus in hebrew. and interestingly enough, it forms a cross.

I've seen similar tricks done with the discography of Vanilla Ice. lol.

[Thorndyke]

Got baptised this Sunday : >

[Pollux]

Got baptised this Sunday : >

Congrats! Welcome to the family, so to speak!

[JGS]

You seem to imply that such an act can change God's mind, or alter him in some way. Is that the case?

That's not the implication at all- quite the opposite actually. Since God is unchanging in ability, all changes come to us. Since God's love is unchanging, there is always the opportunity for it to manifest his justice/judgement in myriad ways. God changing his mind is a part of his perfect love, jusice, & mercy. No one should ever be scared of God unless they are against him.

I think that an antrhopomorphic creator is a rebellion against logic, not to mention the Jewish tradition from which Christianity stems. It is fine if you don't feel that way.

I'm not sure where you get that. From the very first verses of the Bible, God has been desribed in ways for humans to understand while at the same time making it clear that we can never surpass him.

Islam does not describe God as an 'object', He is 'unlike created things', anthropomorphism is a Pharonic thing.

This is fine since conversion to Islam is ot the goal in this discussion. Therefore, this is just one of the reasons why Islam is not for me if it doesn't have the ability to describe God as anything other than something we can't understand anyway. You can't have a relationship with something you can't know.

This says that God is not all powerful.

If your definition of God mandates that he sets up the wickedness in the world and has Satan as a slave to do his bidding even when it's against his wishes, then I agree your view of what all powerful is is not what God is.

A God of limited power, that looks like humans and acts like humans, isn't worthy of worship. You might as well worship Zeus or Thor. If God is comperable to us, then we are all merely different layers of Godliness, we are all God. God is nothing like us, His nature is Majesty and perfection. How can you combine such a base idea of human nature with a God that you believe is anything like us?

The difference is that Thor & Zeus are mythical. As atheists can attest, no one can worship a myth. God, on the other hand is real. So we take how God is described in reality and accept it as the truth. Again, if the Koran has a difficult time explaining God, that's not really a problem with Jews or Christians. It's just a religious difference. In the end, it wouldn't matter under Islam since God being all powerful is deciding for me to be Christian anyway correct?

Explain further, I'm still not with you.

I can't really explain any further than that. Justice requires payback by that standard of that justice. The only part that is difficult to understand regarding that is the concept of perfection since no one other than a couple of people has experienced it. One lost it, one kept it and the one who kept it was able to redeem mankind.

Injustice is bringing humans into the world already lost, where the whole game depends entirely on the acceptance of some arbitrary and often unatainable statement of belief, based in theology that appears deliberately obtuse.

There's nothing arbitrary about God's Laws and requirements. The fact that Christians don't have a million of them to follow is a good thing.

I'm not quite following the unattainable statement of belief so I'll leave that alone.

Justice is not helding one man hostage for the crime of another.

I'm not sure who was being held hostage. Assuming you are discussing Jesus, this would be incorrect. Everything he did was as voluntary as everything Adam did. God & Jesus coud have been fine with us just living and dying for all eternity. After all, our deaths did not affect their lives one iota.

In fact, I agree with you regarding what should have been done if I were running things. I would not have sacrificed my life for the benefit of people who were trying to kill me either. Then again, I'm not perfect or the Only Begotten Son of God.

[ChiTownBuffalo]

So Christian-GAF.

How do you reconcile your political views, if they do not jive with your faith?

This has been an issue for me for quite a long time now.

Have any of your acheived resolution to this? Or is this just something I am going to have to struggle with for the rest of my life?

[JGS]

So Christian-GAF. How do you reconcile your political views, if they do not jive with your faith? This has been an issue for me for quite a long time now. Have any of your acheived resolution to this? Or is this just something I am going to have to struggle with for the rest of my life?

One thing I do is consider not voting as a very viable option. It's always voluntary. With that said, no particular issue is at the forefront so much that it hinders me with the out of left field exception of mandatory brth control beng paid by religious employers (Actually employers in general- religious or not). I thought the Obama admin. was insane for introducing it, but the solution was great (Insurance paying for it), imo, although I have no issues with BC.

I prefer my leaders to be as non-religious and all-inclusive as possible because that means, by default, my religious rights are protected.

So if some non-religious person tries to hinder my religious beliefs, I would vote against him even if it means jumpng to the other side and that is the sole reason. Ditto for someone who is very religious and trying to make the country into his version of Christianity since that could hurt me just as much.

[Kad5]

In reference to evolution I will mention that the word Adam in its semitic roots refers to "Man" both singular and plural.

When I study abrahamic texts I know some of it may be misinterpreted by other people or corrupted so I try to look for the original intended meaning/s by looking at the root.

I believe Adam may have actually been a group of men. Not just one.

[Game Analyst]

Intro to Revelation Chapter 3

Looking at church history, we now come to the Reformation. The age of Medieval Catholicism became so dark that when Sergius III became Pope (A.D. 904–A.D. 967), he ushered in what history calls the Rule of Harlots, during which time his mistress publicly accompanied him to the papal palace. Sergius’ grandson, John X, continued this legacy until he was actually killed in his bedroom while committing adultery. Next came Benedict IX, who assumed the position of pope at twelve years of age through the practice of simony—selling positions within the church to the highest bidder. Benedict IX was so corrupt that the citizens of Rome drove him out of the city, replacing him with Clement III, who was appointed by Henry III. Clement III was not a Roman because, in the words of Henry III: “I appoint no one from Rome because no priest can be found in this city who is free from the pollution of fornication and simony.” Times were dark, diabolical, and depressing—which caused some stirring to take place in the hearts of good Catholic people. In 1330, a giant of the faith named John Wycliffe was born in England. An Oxford scholar and Catholic priest, he began to write about the need to get away from papal edicts and back to the Bible. He began to publicly question doctrines such as transubstantiation and continual sacrifice so much so that he was excommunicated by the powers in Rome. Although he himself was safe at Oxford, his disciples—men like John Hus and Hugh Latimer—were burned at the stake. But their deaths caused a spark of Reformation that would burn throughout England. A glorious move took place, culminating in the year 1483 in Eiselben, Saxon Germany, when a coal miner and his wife gave birth to a baby boy they named Martin. “This boy is not to follow me into the mineshafts,” said Martin’s father. So Martin enrolled in the university to study law. While walking on campus one day, a thunderstorm arose unlike anything he had ever seen. Petrified, Martin cried out to St. Anne, the patron saint of coal miners, “If you save me from this lightning, I will become a monk.” Spared, and true to his word, Martin Luther enrolled in seminary. After two years, he earned his Doctorate, but the more he studied theology, the more he knew he could never be righteous enough to earn God’s favor. To this end, he regularly beat himself, slept outside in freezing temperatures, and fasted for long periods. Still not experiencing the reality of God in his life, he decided to journey to Rome for an audience with the pope. On his way to Rome, however, he contracted a dangerous fever. While recovering in an Alpine monastery, one of the monks, sensing Luther’s struggle, told him to read the Book of Habakkuk. Why Habakkuk? Habakkuk was also one who wrestled with issues. Luther took his advice and when he came to the fourth verse of the second chapter, “The just shall live by faith”—he finally understood. “That’s it!” he cried. “If I’m going to be just, it’s not because of what I do or who I am, but by faith in what God’s done and who He is.” However, upon arriving in Rome, with his heart full of excitement, Luther was shocked by the abuses and hypocrisy he found there. Returning to Germany, he realized he had to take a stand. So in 1517, he nailed a parchment containing ninety-five theses challenging the pope to the university door in Wittenburg. Three and a half years later, Rome answered, “Retract or die.” After burning this response, Luther was summoned to Rome. In 1521, the Diet of Worms was convened, at which the Church realized, that due to his popularity, they had a problem in Luther. “We’re giving you a second opportunity to recant,” they said—to which Martin Luther gave his classic reply: “Here I stand. I can do no other, so help me God.” Luther’s stand gave rise to the birth of the Jesuits—an order dedicated to enforcing papal power no matter the cost. Meanwhile, the Reformation swept across Europe. Luther in Germany, Zwingli in Switzerland, Knox in Scotland all called for a return to the Bible—which strengthened the determination of the Jesuits to stand by the pope and stem the tide of what they perceived to be heresy.… Of the four million people living in Bohemia in 1600, 80 percent were “Protest-ants”—sympathizers of the Reformation. Two years later, the population of Bohemia numbered a mere eight hundred thousand. Austria and Hungary were also early hotbeds of the Reformation. Today, when we think of these countries, we think Catholic. Why? Because the worst bloodshed in history took place in the wake of the Reformation—even worse than the persecution of Christians under the Roman emperors and the holocaust of Nazi Germany under Hitler. This upheaval and bloodshed was so far-reaching that the seeds of the events in Bosnia and Northern Ireland today have their roots in those terrible, brutal times. And understanding this context of the Reformation is vital to understanding the meaning of the text before us.…

The Church in Sardis (A.D. 1500 until Jesus' kingdom comes)

“It is of interest to note that the first coinage ever to be minted in Asia Minor was minted in Sardis in the days of Croesus. These roughly formed electrum staters were the beginning of money in the modern sense of the term. Sardis was the place where modern money was born.” - Barclay

Revelation 3:1 (a) And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: Meaning “remnant,” Sardis is a fitting name. Built on a one thousand-foot bluff, Sardis was an extremely wealthy city that seemed invincible—until the year 549 B.C. when Cyrus, conqueror of the city of Babylon, also conquered Sardis. Sardis was conquered again three hundred years later, a fact to which Jesus will allude.…

The seven stars represent the seven churches (Revelation 1:20).

Revelation 3:1 (b) These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars… As you read this section, you will notice that all of the references about Christ in chapter 1 are repeated again in chapters 2 and 3. We saw in verse 4 of chapter 1 that the “seven Spirits of God” refers to the seven-fold nature of the Holy Spirit as seen in Isaiah 11:2. Why would this description be repeated in conjunction with Sardis? Because, while most traditional mainline Protestants like Lutherans, Presbyterians, Wesleyans, Methodists, and Congregationalists champion everything from homosexuality to environmental issues—they are wary of the ministry of the Spirit.

“We are not to get the impression that Sardis was a defunct affair with the building a wreck, the members scattered, the pastor ready to resign. It was a busy church with meetings every night, committees galore, wheels within wheels, promotion and publicity, something going on all the time. It had a reputation of being a live, wide-awake, going concern.” - Havner

Revelation 3:1 (c) …I know your works, that you have a name… The word translated “name” is onoma in Greek, from which we get our word “denomination.” You can go out tonight and behold the beauty of the North Star. In reality, however, you don’t know if it’s there. Thirty-three light years away, it could have blown up thirty-two years ago, and we wouldn’t know it until next year. So, too, there are those who proudly say, “Look at this group, or that denomination.” And the Lord says, “You’re depending on reputation, on history, on what it used to be. You’re resting in tradition, not relationship.”

Jesus says that a good reputation is no guarantee of true relationship with Him.

Revelation 3:1 (d) …that you are alive, but you are dead. Although Jesus had much to correct in Thyatira, He commended them in verse 19 for their works and charity, service, faith, and patience. But here at Sardis, He simply says, “You’re dead.”

Jesus had not given up on the Church in Sardis.

Revelation 3:2 (a) Be watchful… Why should Sardis be watchful? Because their city fell when they weren’t watching. So, too, spiritually, they were saying, “We’re on solid ground. No one’s going to knock us down.” “You guys in Sardis should know better than that,” Jesus says. “Your own history should tell you the results of being haughty and arrogant, of resting in a false sense of security.”

"What they (the Church in Sardis) must do is remember how they first received and heard the word of God. The, they must hold fast to those things, and to repent by turning and restoring the gospel and apostolic doctrine to authority over their lives." - David Guzik

Revelation 3:2 (b), 3 (a) …and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. What was received initially? The Bible—from Wycliffe, Calvin, Knox, Luther. “Remember how it was received initially,” Jesus is pleading. “And repent for how far you’ve come from that foundation.” Tragically, the Jesus Project—the group of theologians who concluded that “It is more blessed to give than to receive” is the only verifiable phrase uttered by Jesus—is comprised of mainline Protestants. And their sin is greater in God’s economy than the abuses of the Roman Church with her bloodshed and immorality because they have bought into liberal theology. What’s worse, they are undermining people’s beliefs by muddying even the clearest statements of Christ.

Where does mainline denominationalism increasingly find itself?

Revelation 3:3 (b) Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. Jesus says, “If you don’t get back to basics, I’m going to come to you as a thief.” This is where mainline denominationalism increasingly finds itself. Proponents of such do not believe in a Rapture, or even a Millennium. They teach that the promises of the kingdom, the sayings of Isaiah, the teachings of Revelation are simply allegorical. “Don’t look for the Rapture,” they say, “and don’t look for a real kingdom established on earth.” Thus, they will be totally caught off guard by Jesus’ return.

"As sin is expressed under the notion of nakedness, so holiness is expressed under the notion of a garment.” - Poole

Revelation 3:4, 5 (a) You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments… In other words, those in Sardis—or in this epoch of church history that began in A.D. 1500 and goes on until the kingdom comes—who have stayed true to the Word will be overcomers.

“In ancient times cities kept a register of their citizens; and when a man died, his name was removed from the register. The risen Christ is saying that, if we wish to remain on the roll of the citizens of God, we must keep our faith flamingly alive.” - Barclay

Revelation 3:5 (b) …and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. When someone comes to me broken-hearted about his sin, I take him to John 10:28, wherein Jesus says we are eternally secure in His hand, to Romans 8:38-39 where we read that nothing can separate us from the love of God, and to 2 Timothy 1:12, where we are reminded that He is able to keep that which is committed to Him. But when someone comes to me and says, “I don’t care what you think. I’m going to do this anyway. It’s none of your business,” I take him to a different set of Scriptures—to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 5:3-5; and here to Revelation 3:5—because if there’s no repentance month after year after decade, his salvation is not on very solid ground.

We must all hear what the Holy Spirit says to the church at Sardis.

Revelation 3:6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Every generation needs its own Reformation, its own renewal, its own revival. It’s not enough for a generation to hear about how it was in their parents’ day. The Jesus Movement of the ’60s was wonderful—but the days to come are going to be grander still because God’s heart is to go from glory to greater glory whenever we get out of the way and don’t fall prey to the Sardis Syndrome.

Taken from Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1679). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

[Game Analyst]

The Apostle John wrote...

"He required everyone—small and great, rich and poor, free and slave—to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead. And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name. Wisdom is needed here. Let the one with understanding solve the meaning of the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666."

I think all signs are pointing to what John wrote about. Here is an example that we are getting closer to the fulfillment of this prophecy:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2012...ryone-at-birth ‘Barcode everyone at birth’ 22 May 2012 This week science fiction writer Elizabeth Moon argues that everyone should be given a barcode at birth. “If I were empress of the Universe I would insist on every individual having a unique ID permanently attached - a barcode if you will; an implanted chip to provide an easy, fast inexpensive way to identify individuals. It would be imprinted on everyone at birth. Point the scanner at someone and there it is. Having such a unique barcode would have many advantages. In war soldiers could easily differentiate legitimate targets in a population from non combatants. This could prevent mistakes in identity, mistakes that result in the deaths of innocent bystanders. Weapons systems would record the code of the use, identifying how fired which shot and leading to more accountability in the field. Anonymity would be impossible as would mistaken identity making it easier to place responsibility accurately, not only in war but also in non-combat situations far from the war.”

[Game Analyst]

The church in Philadelphia (church history beginning in the 1800's)

Background on the church of Philadelphia.

Revelation 3:7 (a) And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: In this next phase of church history, we see a stirring in the dead denominationalism that had strayed from the simplicity of the gospel. Two books sat in the London shop of a young cobbler: a well-worn Bible and Captain Cook’s journal. As the days went by, the cobbler found himself losing interest in working on the soles of shoes, and caring more about the souls of people in far regions. So deep was the passion that stirred within him that on May 31, 1793, he walked into the little Protestant church he attended and said, “Could I please share?” Allowed to speak a word, he read Isaiah 54:2-3. “We must lengthen the cords; we must strengthen the stakes,” he preached passionately. “We must include others who have never heard. I want to go. Send me to India.” His request stunned his congregation. After all, it had been one thousand years since anyone had launched a foreign missionary endeavor. But their surprise didn’t stop Carey’s congregation from sending him to India. In his first ten years, he became fluent in twelve languages. One of his works, the Bible he translated in Sanskrit, is still used to this day. William Carey goes down in history as the father of the modern missionary movement—as suddenly the church awoke from her lethargy. Carey set the example that one doesn’t have to be skilled, gifted, or special to be used in the kingdom. God is simply looking for men who are willing to go. The church at Philadelphia speaks of this age of church history beginning in the 1800s, for it was through men like Carey in India and Hudson Taylor in China, D. L. Moody in America and C. H. Spurgeon in London that evangelism was taking place and missionaries were being sent out. The letter to Philadelphia is one of only two letters of the seven in which Jesus has nothing critical to say. Why? Perhaps it is because the Philadelphians were involved in evangelism. They were loving the lost—and love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8). There are three Greek words for love. Eros is erotic or sensual love. Phileo is brotherly love. Agape is God’s love. The city of Philadelphia was founded in 189 B.C. by a man named Eumanes II. When he died, he was succeeded by his younger brother, Attalus II, who named buildings after his older brother, minted coins bearing his brother’s image, and talked about his brother constantly. Consequently, the people of the town began to call this place Philo-delphia, or the city of brotherly love. Nothing is coincidental in the Scriptures. I believe it is true that every book of the Bible is inspired. And every chapter of every book is inspired. And every verse of every chapter is inspired. And every word of every verse is inspired. And every letter of every word is inspired. In fact, I agree with the Rabbis that every space between every word is inspired! Thus, it is no surprise that Philadelphia, the city of brotherly love is the center of evangelism.

Jesus shows that He is the keeper of the keys and doors.

Revelation 3:7 (b) These things says He who is holy, He who is true, He who has the key of David… In chapter 1, we read that Jesus holds the keys of hell and death (1:18). To this missionary church, He says He holds an additional key: the key of David—which takes one back to the key of David spoken of in Isaiah 22, wherein we read of a man named Shebna, who was the treasurer in the kingdom of Judah during the reign of Hezekiah. After Shebna used temple money to purchase a sepulcher and chariots for himself, Isaiah came on the scene and said, “What are you doing? You had opportunity, but you abused it.” So the key to the treasury was taken from off Shebna’s shoulder, where the key was traditionally worn, and given to a godly man who wore it wisely. Isaiah went on to speak of this one who used the keys properly as being “fastened like a nail,” or steadfast and dependable. Of course, we think of another who was fastened—not like a nail, but with a nail. We think of another who perfectly carried the key of the government upon His shoulder (Isaiah 9:6). We think of Jesus.

“David could shut or open the kingdom of Israel to whom he pleased. He was not bound to leave the kingdom even to his eldest son. He could choose whom he pleased to succeed him. The kingdom of the Gospel, and the kingdom of heaven, are at the disposal of Christ.” - Clarke

Revelation 3:7 (c)–8 (a) …He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it… Jesus is the One who opened the doors for William Carey in India, Hudson Taylor in China, for us in the United States, in Mexico, in Honduras, in Vanuatu. But He also shuts doors that can’t be opened. If a man continually says, “No,” to the Lord, there will come a time when he will be unable to say, “Yes”—at which point he’s locked in to his eternal decision and destruction.

“It is not a matter of great strength, not great ability but great dependability. Samson had great ability but poor dependability. A little strength faithfully used means more than much strength flashily and fitfully used.” - Havner

Revelation 3:8 (b) …for you have a little strength… There are those who teach that in the last days there will be a major manifestation of the sons of God; that miracles will happen, wherein every sick person is healed and glorious things will occur. But I believe that’s hype and hyperbole. Yes, there are some good things happening. But it’s the time of little strength. Jesus does not say this condemningly. He merely says that’s the way it is during the age of Philadelphia. Thus, it’s not an indictment, but rather an honest assessment of the “last days” church at Philadelphia.

The church in Philadelphia obeyed God's Word.

Revelation 3:8 (c) …have kept My word… Besides having little strength, the “last days” church at Philadelphia is a church that has returned to the Word, has a desire for the Word and studies the Scriptures constantly.

“The church of Philadelphia is commended for keeping the Word of the Lord and not denying His Name. Success in Christian work is not to be measured by any other standard of achievement. It is not rise in ecclesiastical position. It is not the number of new buildings which have been built through a man’s ministry. It is not the crowds that flock to listen to any human voice. All of these things are frequently used as yardsticks of success, but they are earthly and not heavenly measures.” - Barnhouse

Revelation 3:8 (d) …and have not denied My name. The idea here is “You have not denied My deity. You recognize I am who I claim to be—not just an interesting teacher, not just a model of how to live successfully, of how to have prosperity, or of how to be happy. I am the Christ.”

Who are the people of the synagogue of Satan that Jesus mentions?

Revelation 3:9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. In this end-times church there is a synagogue of Satan—those who say they are Jews but aren’t. Who are these people? In John’s day, the reference would have been to the Jews who persecuted believers. Jesus said previously and reiterates here, “They’re not true Jews, any more than Christians who persecute Jews are true Christians.” In our day, I believe the reference is to the growing number of people in the Christian community who say, “Because God is through with the Jew, we are Israel.” In The Road to the Holocaust, Hal Lindsey proves that the deaths of six million Jews did not begin with the Third Reich. They began one hundred years earlier, when Bible teachers began to teach that God is through with the Jew. Anti-Semitism is always the mark of a people who fail to read their Bibles, for in Romans 9-11 God declares He is not through with Israel. There are three categories of people in the Bible: Jews, Gentiles, and the church. Who makes up the church? Former Jews and former Gentiles. This is important to understand because we need to realize that the reason for the Tribulation is the fact that God is not through with Israel. The Rapture is when Jesus comes to get us—but the Second Coming is when Jesus comes back to rescue Israel. May God help us to never lose our understanding of Israel’s importance.

What is the word of His patience or perseverance?

Revelation 3:10 (a) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience… In 2 Thessalonians 3:5, we are told that God is establishing us in the patience of waiting for Jesus Christ. I point this out because the church at Philadelphia is the church interested in Bible prophecy. Although in the first two centuries, the topics of Jesus’ Second Coming and the Rapture of the church were central themes of preaching and writing, Bible prophecy was lost as an interest in the church until the 1800s because people said, “It’s impossible for a nation to come back from the dead. “It’s unthinkable that the Jewish people could have a national identity again. It’s gotta be an allegory. Why would the Middle East be the focal point of a battle? Who cares about the Middle East?” We now understand why that region of the world is so strategic: oil. Economically, militarily, politically, the attention of the whole world is constantly focused on the Middle East.

"Most Bible scholars see this hour of trial as a prophetic reference to the Messianic woes, the Great Tribulation, which precede Jesus’ earthly kingdom." - David Guzik

Revelation 3:10 (b) …I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation… The Greek word translated “from” is ek, which means “out of.” In other words, Jesus says, “You at Philadelphia, you of little strength, you’ve kept My Word and you haven’t denied My Name. You’ve gone through the open door, and you’ve been patiently awaiting My coming. Because of this, I will take you out of the time period of temptation yet to come.”

"The test is directed against those who dwell on the earth. This phrase is used nine times in the Book of Revelation, and it speaks of those who are not saved in Jesus." - David Guzik

Revelation 3:10 (c) …which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. I believe the church is the group of people who will be taken out of the hour of temptation that shall come upon all the world. This is not simply local persecution in Philadelphia, but a time of difficulty that encompasses the entire globe. And there’s only one event that fits this description: the Tribulation. Does this promise to keep you from the hour of trial imply an escape before the Great Tribulation? Or does it promise protection in it? Each side believes this passage easily supports their position. 1. Those who believe the church will be here on earth during this time of Great Tribulation focus on Jesus’ command to persevere, and say the context demands seeing this as protection that enables the faithful to persevere in the period. 2. Those who believe that Jesus will come for His church before this time of Great Tribulation note that protection is promised from the very hour of trial, not just the trial itself. They also point to the worldwide, inescapable cataclysm predicted in the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24:21 and Revelation chapters 6, 8-9, 16). 3. However, persevere is in the past tense, showing it is something that the Christians had already done before the hour of trial, which has not yet come upon the world. The promise is a reward for past perseverance, not the equipping to persevere in the future. “As far as the Philadelphian church was concerned, the rapture of the church was presented to them as an imminent hope.” (Walvoord) 4. In addition, the ones tested by this hour of trial are not primarily believers, but those who dwell on the earth - whose home is this earth, who are not citizens of heaven (Philippians 3:20).

“The expression ‘quickly’ is to be understood as something which is sudden and unexpected, not necessarily immediate.” - Walvoord

Revelation 3:11 (a) Behold, I am coming quickly!… Tachu, the Greek word translated “quickly,” actually means “suddenly.” Thus, the Lord could come at any moment. Only we who believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture can say, “It could be today.” Mid- and post-Tribulationists, on the other hand, have no recourse but to say, “The Lord can’t come back today because the Tribulation hasn’t begun yet.” But we say, “It could be today.” And such is the throbbing heartbeat of Bible prophecy.

"This is not a crown of royalty, given because of royal birth. This is a crown of victory. Jesus encourages His saints to finish their course with victory, to “play the second half” just as strongly as they “played the first half." David Guzik

Revelation 3:11 (b) …hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. This is intriguing. “I’m coming suddenly,” Jesus says, “so hold fast in order that you don’t lose your crown.” “Crown?” you say. “I don’t have one yet. What does this mean?” I believe the answer is found in 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20, where Paul identifies the crown as people—people with whom we’ve shared, people for whom you’ve prayed. “Stay with them,” says Jesus. “Keep praying for them. Don’t give up on them.”

“Philadelphia honored its illustrious sons by putting their names on the pillars of its temples, so that all who came to worship might see and remember.” - Barclay

Revelation 3:12 (a) He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. “Hold fast to your crown, look for My coming, and you will be planted firmly as a pillar in My kingdom,” says Jesus. Revelation 3:12 (b) …and I will write upon him the name of my God… The best part about making the team was that I got to wear the jacket. You see, the Hornets were the #1 Pop Warner football team in the nation five years out of six. So the word “Hornets” emblazoned across the jacket I wore every day to fifth grade made me feel like I had arrived—regardless of the fact that the year I played as third-string quarterback our record was two wins, seven losses. Even though I was terrible and our team stunk, I still got to wear the jacket. So, too, the Lord says, “I’m going to put the name of My Father on your jacket. His will be the Name you wear for eternity.” Revelation 3:12 (c) …I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God.… You’re not only going to have the glory of God emblazoned upon you, but you’re going to have the government of God given to you. The New Jerusalem is going to make any city on this planet look insignificant. And we will be residents therein. Revelation 3:12 (d) …and I will write on him My new name. Proverbs 25:2 says it is the glory of God to conceal or to hide His name, but the honor of kings to search it out. Because we are a nation of kings and priests (Revelation 1:6), we will be those who search out His name. It’s as if the Lord is saying, “There are aspects of who I am of which you have no idea on this earth, for it will take eternity for you to perceive and enjoy the aspects of My being. It’s My glory to conceal a thing. It’s your privilege to search it out.” When we get to heaven, we’re truly going to be the bride of Christ. I pity our poor brides, guys, because as time goes on, it must be disappointing, disheartening, disillusioning, and depressing to them to see our flaws become ever more evident. Not so with God. Unlike any relationship on earth, this one will only produce greater and greater ecstasy, greater and greater delight as we explore the nooks and crannies of His nature for all eternity.

"We all want to hear the praise and encouragement Jesus gives to the church at Philadelphia. If we would be like this church, we must stay on their foundation, which was Jesus’ name and Jesus’ word. We must also depend on their source of strength which was Jesus, not themselves." - David Guzik

Revelation 3:13 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Brotherly love, evangelism, holding fast are all characteristics of this church at Philadelphia—which is perhaps best typified by Francis of Assisi when he said, “Witness wherever you go, and if absolutely necessary, use words.” Truly, evangelism is directly connected to love.

Taken from Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1682). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
Taken from David Guzik's Bible Commentary.

[Evlar]

Does anyone actually read these daily dissertations by Game Analyst? Shouldn't he just take it to his blog?

[Gileadxv]

Does anyone actually read these daily dissertations by Game Analyst? Shouldn't he just take it to his blog?

I read them :)

[frequency]

I don't know if this is the right place for this, but...

I was thinking recently about the camel - needle story. I think Jesus told the rich man to sell everything and give it away and follow him? And the man couldn't do it so Jesus said it's basically impossible for rich people to go to heaven.

Aren't most of us pretty rich compared to the majority of the world? And we continue to be rich in that sense. How do we justify our lifestyles? Aren't we pretty much like the rich man in the story?

[JGS]

I don't know if this is the right place for this, but... I was thinking recently about the camel - needle story. I think Jesus told the rich man to sell everything and give it away and follow him? And the man couldn't do it so Jesus said it's basically impossible for rich people to go to heaven. Aren't most of us pretty rich compared to the majority of the world? And we continue to be rich in that sense. How do we justify our lifestyles? Aren't we pretty much like the rich man in the story?

You're only like the rich man if you can't give up your material possessions to do the God's works.

The man in the story was even worse because he asked what he need to do showing how powerful a draw money was. The guy knew and believed in Jesus but still could not give it up.

Israel at the time had plenty of rich, middle class, and poor people, but like all societies, the wealthy were the ones admired more than the pious. Jesus regularly used illustrations and hyperbole to pinpoint how particular problems could hinder our salvation.

[frequency]

You're only like the rich man if you can't give up your material possessions to do the God's works. The man in the story was even worse because he asked what he need to do showing how powerful a draw money was. The guy knew and believed in Jesus but still could not give it up. Israel at the time had plenty of rich, middle class, and poor people, but like all societies, the wealthy were the ones admired more than the pious. Jesus regularly used illustrations and hyperbole to pinpoint how particular problems could hinder our salvation.

Thank you, but I'm not sure I understand. Can't we technically give away all we have to some Christian-based charities? But instead we choose to play the fancy new video game console on that shiny new TV?

Or are we supposed to take that story as hyperbole and it doesn't really apply to us?

[JGS]

Thank you, but I'm not sure I understand. Can't we technically give away all we have to some Christian-based charities? But instead we choose to play the fancy new video game console on that shiny new TV? Or are we supposed to take that story as hyperbole and it doesn't really apply to us?

The story wasn't really about sacrifice as much as it was about what would we do to follow Jesus.

If you have stuff but willing to give it up at the drop of a hat (Like Jesus' apostles for example) at the request of Jesus, then you're a winner. If you have nothing, but instead of following jesus you try to get as much stuff as possible, then you're a loser. It's all about heart condition & Jesus saw that this guy had a love for material possessions - to the pint that he was called a prince.

Jesus was pointing out a very common story. Rich people do not like giving up their money as much as poor people are willing to forego being rich. In short, poor people are better suited for spiritual things because they have little else. In contrast wealth makes you happy in short term ways but you can't take it with you.

I don't think it would hurt you to give away your possessions in pursuit of a missionary way of life, but one can accomplish a lot living a relatively good life. In Jesus time, he accepted hospitality from numerous wealthy people and the NT is full of them, but they also weren't really cut out for the missionary work that was needed while Jesus was on Earth.

[Emwitus]

I don't know if this is the right place for this, but... I was thinking recently about the camel - needle story. I think Jesus told the rich man to sell everything and give it away and follow him? And the man couldn't do it so Jesus said it's basically impossible for rich people to go to heaven. Aren't most of us pretty rich compared to the majority of the world? And we continue to be rich in that sense. How do we justify our lifestyles? Aren't we pretty much like the rich man in the story?

I think you'll find, no offense to anyone here, that christianity is booming in third world countries and even here among the poor.(US) It's really like J said, that it's more of a "what you would give up for me" rather than what you are expected to do. It's been so for thousands of years and i would say the parable is not so off its mark.

[frequency]

Thank you both for the answers.

It's just been bothering me that I could be living a completely unjust life. I mean, if I was ever asked "why didn't you give everything away and devote your life?" I don't know how I would answer. "I'm selfish and like being comfortable." I'm afraid I'm just doing it wrong. But then I see everyone else, many significantly more wealthy than me, at peace with it. So I just wanted to know what I'm missing and how I can justify it for myself. Maybe I can't...

As for giving it all up and pursuing a missionary life, I would say I'm too weak and afraid of strangers - and that would be true. But so were many of the other people in the bible. So I always just question what I'm doing with my life. There are just so many things I feel like I'm doing wrong.

I know it's the heart that matters but... How strong are my convictions really if I can't actually take action? I guess this is a thing I have to deal with myself.

Sorry, I'm a little slow and don't really understand much of anything about anything.

[Gileadxv]

Thank you both for the answers. It's just been bothering me that I could be living a completely unjust life. I mean, if I was ever asked "why didn't you give everything away and devote your life?" I don't know how I would answer. "I'm selfish and like being comfortable." I'm afraid I'm just doing it wrong. But then I see everyone else, many significantly more wealthy than me, at peace with it. So I just wanted to know what I'm missing and how I can justify it for myself. Maybe I can't... As for giving it all up and pursuing a missionary life, I would say I'm too weak and afraid of strangers - and that would be true. But so were many of the other people in the bible. So I always just question what I'm doing with my life. There are just so many things I feel like I'm doing wrong. I know it's the heart that matters but... How strong are my convictions really if I can't actually take action? I guess this is a thing I have to deal with myself. Sorry, I'm a little slow and don't really understand much of anything about anything.

The very fact that you are considering these questions is a great step in the right direction. Understand, that our culture is not aligned with God's desire for us. 70+% of Americans identify themselves as Christians, but do you see it in the people around you? This, in my opinion is the most frightening verse in the Bible:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ -- Mathew 7:21-23

Notice the double emphasis on, "Lord, Lord". Jesus is talking about self-professed believers. Where we declare Jesus with our lips, but betray him with our lives. I truly believe American Christianity, by-and-large, has become the church of Laodicea (this is painting with a broad stroke, but I believe represents a large majority of believers within our nation).

“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’” -- Revelation 3:14-22

I mention of all of this so as to stress that we can not look to our culture and society for godly, Biblical living. As for the the Rich Man's encounter with Jesus, it's not money itself that is the problem, but when it becomes your master. The truth is, when we begin to evaluation Biblical stewardship, we quickly learn that it's not about developing a saving's account, or planning for retirement. It's about giving extravagantly, because that is God's nature and what He does with us. One of the hardest things I've personally had to come to grips with over the last six months is what a terrible steward I've been. It was horrifying to realize that I was the bad steward (Luke 16:1-13). I spent my money selfishly, accrued debt with credit cards, and was wasting the resources in which God had entrusted me. I'm still working on this as I try to change my habits and instill new disciplines; but I still have a long way to go.

I love video games. However, the reality is, what am I investing in when I purchase them? What kind of treasure am I storing for myself? Now, there's nothing wrong with buying things for yourself, but, your spending habits will reflect the nature of your heart, and what you truly find value in. Mortgages, credit card payments, car payments, student loans...all of these things wrap a collar around your neck in order to ensure you bow before a new master, mammon. Only, today we call it "responsible living". Yet when it comes time to answer God's call, how often will we find ourselves tied up in the very same "responsibility" that prevents us from responding like Isaiah, "Here I am. Send me!".

Everyone serves something, and it's that master's voice to whom we will answer.

“Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” -- Joshua 24:14-15

[Game Analyst]

I was thinking recently about the camel - needle story. I think Jesus told the rich man to sell everything and give it away and follow him? And the man couldn't do it so Jesus said it's basically impossible for rich people to go to heaven.

Jesus was making the point that the salvation of rich, poor, or middle-class is impossible by any human. Salvation of any person requires a miracle by God.

I think it is important to remember that the disciples were baffled by Jesus' statement (that society taught that if you had money God was blessing you - much like today's false prosperity teachers) and they also wondered how any person could be saved:

The disciples were astounded. “Then who in the world can be saved?” they asked. Jesus looked at them intently and said, “Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But not with God. Everything is possible with God.”

Aren't most of us pretty rich compared to the majority of the world? And we continue to be rich in that sense. How do we justify our lifestyles? Aren't we pretty much like the rich man in the story?

Money was the rich mans god. Jesus was clear that God cannot be our God if we have god as our money:

“No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other; you will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

The moralist in the story thought that he had it all together, Jesus even commended him about keeping the other commandments, but when it came to money, Jesus called him out on it and he went away sad because money was his god.

It's just been bothering me that I could be living a completely unjust life. I mean, if I was ever asked "why didn't you give everything away and devote your life?" I don't know how I would answer. "I'm selfish and like being comfortable." I'm afraid I'm just doing it wrong. But then I see everyone else, many significantly more wealthy than me, at peace with it. So I just wanted to know what I'm missing and how I can justify it for myself. Maybe I can't...

You need to remember that Jesus calls each of us to give up different things. You need to ask the Lord what He wants you to do. Ask the Lord if god is your money. Ask him to search you heart and let him have control of your life.

I think what Paul wrote applies to all of us who have brought up the questions you have been bring up:

"Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect."

As for giving it all up and pursuing a missionary life, I would say I'm too weak and afraid of strangers - and that would be true. But so were many of the other people in the bible. So I always just question what I'm doing with my life. There are just so many things I feel like I'm doing wrong.

A few things...

1. God calls everyone to be a missionary. We are missionaries at school, work, with our families, friends, in our neighborhoods, etc. We each have missionary fields that God has called us to. Home is the starting work for the missionary life. Start by living for God, be an example to the people God has placed in your life currently, and he will let you know, in due season, what his plan for you is.

2. About being weak. The reason your weak is because God wants to give you the strength to be strong. I think Paul's example will help you out:

Each time he said, “My grace is all you need. My power works best in weakness.” So now I am glad to boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ can work through me. That’s why I take pleasure in my weaknesses, and in the insults, hardships, persecutions, and troubles that I suffer for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

3. Doing things that are wrong. Pray when you read the Bible. Ask God as your reading if what you are reading applies to you. Ask him to speak to you and talk with him as you read. The Word of God will come alive and God will begin to show you the things that he has been wanting to change in your life.

I know it's the heart that matters but... How strong are my convictions really if I can't actually take action? I guess this is a thing I have to deal with myself.

You do not have to deal with it by yourself. God said, "Come now, and let us reason together," and in another place He said, "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart."

God is waiting to help you, take away the confusion and to just bless your life. Seek Him, talk to Him, and let Him do what He has been wanting to do in your life since the creation of the world.

[frequency]

Thank you both for the responses. I can't really think of anything to say in response, but I just wanted you to know that it's been helpful and I really appreciate you taking the time for me. Thank you. :)