[Jeff-DSA]

The thing is: if Jesus was really God or the son of God, you'd expect him to go to every continent in the world to teach people what God's will was. You wouldn't just expect him to go to the middle east, you'd expect him to go to the America's, China, Africa, etc. (Not that he'd only go to the Americas, or that the Book of Mormon is real of course.)

We believe Christ visited more civilizations than the Americas too. We just don't have those scriptural records yet, but we believe that they will one day emerge

Also, when we say Christ came to America, it was most likely central America...and that was probably what is present day Guatemala or near there. The story of the Book or Mormon, I believe, took place in a small area in Central America.

[Fusebox]

The thing is: if Jesus was really God or the son of God, you'd expect him to go to every continent in the world to teach people what God's will was. You wouldn't just expect him to go to the middle east, you'd expect him to go to the America's, China, Africa, etc. (Not that he'd only go to the Americas, or that the Book of Mormon is real of course.)

Very good point, but one that Smith obviously failed to consider as the other continents seem conspicuous by their absence in his retconning of the bible.

The idea is more along the lines of: He loves everyone. Jesus, as portrayed doesn't think in terms of nations, he tends to treat everyone as equals. So why would it not seem consistent that'd he'd stop by over there after he was resurrected and hug and teach everyone other there?

It does, but what isn't consistent is the way that this new knowledge came about, being revealed 3500 years later by an American named Joseph Smith. Trust me, from a non-Americans perspective this is a very hard coincidence to accept.

[perfectchaos007]

If I get into Celestial heaven, will I get the opportunity to populate my very own planet!?

[Jeff-DSA]

Why are Mormons so insistent on trying to get other people to join their church? I've had them come knock on my front door several times and there's always pairs of them walking around my university campus stopping people to try to get them to sign up. I was approached by two of them once and had to politely tell them I wasn't interested about a half dozen times before they stopped asking me questions.

Because we believe that the church is the only true church that has priesthood authority. We also believe that saving ordinances (baptism, confirmation, sacrament, etc.) are only valid if performed by a priesthood holder with the proper authority. It's important to us for all people to have the opportunity to receive saving ordinances by one with authority.

It's aggressive and it can be somewhat overbearing, I'm sure. However I was never pushy as a missionary and accepted it when people told me they weren't interested. Christ never forced his message on anybody. If they didn't accept my invitation to listen, that was fine and I went on my way.

If I get into Celestial heaven, will I get the opportunity to populate my very own planet!?

Joseph Smith said that man can one day be like God is...so yeah.

[bishoptl]

I don't feel comfortable with Mormonism because: - lighter skin = less sin previously, darker skin, more sin. Sounds pretty racist. Not exactly seeing a lot of black preists around.

Really? Hito, this true?

[Shalashaska]

I've lived around Mormons most of my life (Salt Lake City). I still can't really explain them if you asked me. I'm agnostic and don't pretend to know or care much about religion... But they range from totally normal people to mega fucking weird. Definitely some of the most sheltered people I've had the chance living around.

Throwing this out there but in general there's a pretty big difference between Utah Mormons and non-Utah Mormons. The non-Utah Mormons are generally more laid back and less uptight about the church. You can almost always tell the difference between missionaries from Utah and ones that aren't.

[ClassyPenguin]

There was a book on the history of Mormonism
that was highly recommended by gaf, anyone know the name of it


Frontline did an episode on the history, interesting stuff
http://www.pbs.org/mormons/view/

[ronito]

True, but that's a little simple, I think a lot of the focus on that issue is because of the timeframe in which it occurred: "Heal the sick? Ok Cause the blind to see? Sure Walk on water? no problem Raise the dead and was resurrected? Why not?!" 3500 years later an American adds... "Hey guys, he also went to America!" It just seems such a blatantly obviously retcon.

No less silly than what happened with the bible. "Yeah all this stuff happened...oh and he was divine too."

Why are Mormons so insistent on trying to get other people to join their church? I've had them come knock on my front door several times and there's always pairs of them walking around my university campus stopping people to try to get them to sign up. I was approached by two of them once and had to politely tell them I wasn't interested about a half dozen times before they stopped asking me questions.

I'd look to a TBM to answer this one. I always thought that missions were more for the missionaries than anyone else.

As someone not from the USA, I think the rest of the world sees it as an example of stereotypical 'American arrogance'. The USA not mentioned in The Bible?! Fuck that, we'll start our own religion where America was Jesus's holiday home! I'm not trying to be ignorant, I just don't think Europeans in general know a lot about Mormonism and that's the general consensus. That and polygamy. Speaking of Mormons and polygamy, is Big Love good?

Oh you're not the only one. Growing up Latino and mormon was an excercise in in a lot of self hating. I'm right there with you though. This was one of the many straws that broke the proverbial camel's back for me.

- lighter skin = less sin previously, darker skin, more sin. Sounds pretty racist. Not exactly seeing a lot of black preists around. - polygamy is something 'north America isn't currently ready for', but was an important aspect in the early days of it's founding. So...what...it's basically just temporarily removed for now? - more children = better afterlife or whatever. Sounds like just a bullshit thing made up to grow your religion exponentially. "hey, you'll be a god if you have tons of children and teach them Mormonism" - Mormons in my experience tend to refer people to other Mormon businesses. Fair enough. I've had bad experiences with Mormon dentists recommending unneeded dental procedures to me and friends that were wholly unnecessary (after getting second and third opinions) So, real talk, how far off the mark are these precepts?

Lighter skin = more holy Unfortunately very true. They don't like to talk about it now but as late as the late eighties/early nineties there were church leaders talking about how wonderful it was to see latino and native american complexions get lighter as they became more righteous. I'm sure some current mormons would disagree. But it really is all over the doctrine.

Polygamy depends on who you talk to. Some believe it will be practiced and we're just not ready for it yet. Some don't know. Some find polygamy repulsive. However the church still does teach that if a man is widowed and marries again he'll have two wives in the after life. So in a sense polygamy never really left.

More kids = higher place in heaven Sorta a misnomer. Until about the early nineties the belief was that it was a husband and wife's duty to bring as many children they could to the world. The mormon belief is that there was a pre-life and as such there were children in heaven waiting to be born. So it was a mormon parent's duty to bring as many of those to mormon homes as they could. So it wasn't that the more kids you had the higher you'd get in heaven. But pre-80s it wouldn't be that strange to see a well off family with only like 3 kids get questions as to why they weren't bring more children into the world.

Referring people to other mormon businesses Yeah. And? You'd go to a gaffer's store if someone told you about it and you'd tell other gaffers about it to. Totally natural.

R-Rated movies Hell, some of the leadership wont watch anything other than G movies. The thought is that R rate movies have violence and, much more importantly, nudity. Which could lead members to pornography or swearing and such.

Can you please explain the in-jokes in the subject line?

3 hour block refers to the 3 hours of meetings Mormons go to every sunday.

The salvation flow charts? Every mormon's had a lesson about the afterlife where someone's pulled out a flow chart like this:

[Devolution]

Throwing this out there but in general there's a pretty big difference between Utah Mormons and non-Utah Mormons. The non-Utah Mormons are generally more laid back and less uptight about the church. You can almost always tell the difference between missionaries from Utah and ones that aren't.

Even my Mormon pals make fun of Utah Mormons.

[Hitokage]

Really? Hito, this true?

The Book of Mormon narrative is inherently racist and the Mormon church was really late to the civil rights bandwagon, although from the late 70s on they've gradually put it behind them.

Referring people to other mormon businesses Yeah. And? You'd go to a gaffer's store if someone told you about it and you'd tell other gaffers about it to. Totally natural.

What's classic is a mormon walking into a mormon-run establishment demanding the "mormon discount".

[Jeff-DSA]

Really? Hito, this true?

No.

It stems from the Book of Mormon when it was believed that God marked the Lamanites (rebellious people) with darker skin to distinguish them from the Nephites (chosen people) after they arrived in the Americas. However, many times the Lamanites were more righteous than the Nephites at certain points in history.

Also, it's widely believed that it's church doctrine that black skin comes from the mark of Cain, but it has nothing to do with righteousness in their own lifetimes, but rather an ancestral mark. This has been refuted, even during the era of segregation by church leaders.

In 1954, Church President David O. McKay taught: “There is not now, and there never has been a doctrine in this church that the negroes are under a divine curse. There is no doctrine in the church of any kind pertaining to the negro. ‘We believe’ that we have a scriptural precedent for withholding the priesthood from the negro. It is a practice, not a doctrine, and the practice someday will be changed. And that’s all there is to it.

Classic is a mormon walking into a mormon-run establishment demanding the "mormon discount".

Again, something I've never heard of.

[Toby]

Never mind, answered above.

[ronito]

Very good point, but one that Smith obviously failed to consider as the other continents seem conspicuous by their absence in his retconning of the bible. It does, but what isn't consistent is the way that this new knowledge came about, being revealed 3500 years later by an American named Joseph Smith. Trust me, from a non-Americans perspective this is a very hard coincidence to accept.

As a non-American I'm totally there with you. BUT (<- big but) to be entirely fair Joseph Smith did prophesy that Christ had gone to the other continents and that at some point their histories would be brought to light just like the american one had.

[Trurl]

Is "outer darkness" as harsh as the fire and brimstone found in some other parts of Christianity?

Edit: Thanks for the responses to my first question. To be honest I didn't realize that there was a functional difference between "church" and "temple" in LDS other than maybe something like size and primacy.

[Fusebox]

No less silly than what happened with the bible. "Yeah all this stuff happened...oh and he was divine too."

Well yeah, but is it too much to expect a little progress since then? I mean, the Book of Mormon was written less than 200 years ago.

As a non-American I'm totally there with you. BUT (<- big but) to be entirely fair Joseph Smith did prophesy that Christ had gone to the other continents and that at some point their histories would be brought to light just like the american one had.

Damn it, he saw my argument coming from a long way off! :P

[Hitokage]

No. It stems from the Book of Mormon when it was believed that God marked the Lamanites (rebellious people) with darker skin to distinguish them from the Nephites (chosen people) after they arrived in the Americas. However, many times the Lamanites were more righteous than the Nephites at certain points in history.

When Jesus came everyone was made white again, only for the wicked people to fall to dark skin again later on. However, as certain editions of the Book of Mormon tell it, if they return to righteousness they will be made "white and delightsome".

[bluemax]

Any of you guys read Under the Banner of Heaven?

I checked it out from the library recently and read through most of it. It was really eye opening for me as someone who was raised LDS. It made me feel a bit sick to think about how I had defended certain things as a kid and how ignorant of what a lot of the church's beliefs and history really were.

Why are Mormons so insistent on trying to get other people to join their church? I've had them come knock on my front door several times and there's always pairs of them walking around my university campus stopping people to try to get them to sign up. I was approached by two of them once and had to politely tell them I wasn't interested about a half dozen times before they stopped asking me questions.

They believe theirs to be the one true religion and that its their job to spread it to as many people as possible. Same deal with baptisms for the dead, you want to bring everyone you can into the LDS religion.

[Jeff-DSA]

Any of you guys read Under the Banner of Heaven? I checked it out from the library recently and read through most of it. It was really eye opening for me as someone who was raised LDS. It made me feel a bit sick to think about how I had defended certain things as a kid and how ignorant of what a lot of the church's beliefs and history really were.

Doesn't this mostly deal with fundamentalist groups and the FLDS? Also the Mountain Meadows Massacre is nothing that the church shies away from these days. It was fueled by paranoia and bad judgment. The cover up was bad, but that was the fault of individuals making poor decisions and then fearing the law of man. They can't escape God's judgment when it's all said and done.

[Jeramii]

checking in as well. ex mormon.

i'll probably add my two cents later.

[bluemax]

Doesn't this mostly deal with fundamentalist groups and the FLDS? Also the Mountain Meadows Massacre is nothing that the church shies away from these days. It was fueled by paranoia and bad judgment. The cover up was bad, but that was the fault of individuals making poor decisions and then fearing the law of man. They can't escape God's judgment when it's all said and done.

Its a three way narrative between modern FLDS groups, the history of the LDS church (particularly as it relates to polygamy but it covers everything), and the Lafferty brothers.

[besada]

Not a Mormon, but I'm married to an ex-Mormon and have a huge (and growing) Mormon extended family.

[ronito]

No. It stems from the Book of Mormon when it was believed that God marked the Lamanites (rebellious people) with darker skin to distinguish them from the Nephites (chosen people) after they arrived in the Americas. However, many times the Lamanites were more righteous than the Nephites at certain points in history. Also, it's widely believed that it's church doctrine that black skin comes from the mark of Cain, but it has nothing to do with righteousness in their own lifetimes, but rather an ancestral mark. This has been refuted, even during the era of segregation by church leaders. Again, something I've never heard of.

On this I think the best the church can say is "Not anymore. We don't teach that anymore." You do point out that lamanites were more righteous at times than the white nephites but it was also taught that the more righteous they became the more white they became.

This is held up until pretty recently

"The day of the Lamanites in nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation...There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. Spencer W. Kimball; The Improvement Era, Dec. 1960, p. 923)

It's really everywhere in the church's history:
Less valiant people were black (later removed)

"Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes." LDS "Apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition

Curse of dark skin in scripture

"For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised amongst all people." LDS Pearl of Great Price, Moses 7:8,

Again curse of dark skin in scripture

ALMA 3:6. And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men. ALMA 3:7. And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a mark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women. ALMA 3:8. And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction.

White and delightsome. Later changed to be Pure and delightsome in later editions.

"And the Gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, ...their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and delightsome people." Book of Mormon (1830 edition)

Mark of kain

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disgreeable, and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race -- that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree." LDS "Prophet" Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 290, 1859

I'd say that even saying "we don't teach that anymore" is pretty darn generous. I mean there are the cursings of dark skin right in scripture.

[doomed1]

Here's a serious theological question from an Eastern Rite Catholic who knows his early church history/theology:

Theologically, what separates Mormonism from Arian Gnosticism? The combination of special revelation (golden tablets that only one man can read/see, when they're translated, disappear, all of which making unsubstantiated claims, i.e., Jesus in America, all added to a very limited modern group that gets to "talk" to God), along with salvation exclusivity (only Morons get into real-heaven) make the theology very questionable to me in the greater context of its roots. Y'see, I have difficulty seeing a connected line of theology from originating scripture to the Book of Mormon, especially with pesky things like claims that fly in the face of reason (Native Americans somehow white Israelites with their skin turned red).

Yeah, I'm kind of a theology snob, but I'd like to hear the difference anyway, if there is one. Mormonism could be classified as a post-Arian Gnosticism by all technical definition anyway if I REALLY wanted to.

[Sutton Dagger]

From the outside it just seems like there have been more erroneous stories piled on top of the previous scriptures.

Is there any evidence for the claims of the Latter day Saints?

[ronito]

Here's a serious theological question from an Eastern Rite Catholic who knows his early church history/theology: Theologically, what separates Mormonism from Arian Gnosticism? The combination of special revelation (golden tablets that only one man can read/see, when they're translated, disappear, all of which making unsubstantiated claims, i.e., Jesus in America, all added to a very limited modern group that gets to "talk" to God), along with salvation exclusivity (only Morons get into real-heaven) make the theology very questionable to me in the greater context of its roots. Y'see, I have difficulty seeing a connected line of theology from originating scripture to the Book of Mormon, especially with pesky things like claims that fly in the face of reason (Native Americans somehow white Israelites with their skin turned red). Yeah, I'm kind of a theology snob, but I'd like to hear the difference anyway, if there is one. Mormonism could be classified as a post-Arian Gnosticism by all technical definition anyway if I REALLY wanted to.

You're missing the masonic element. but otherwise you're pretty close.

[Lkr]

What is so bad about coffee?
Is it normal that Mormon kids have sheltered lives? When I grew up in socal, I had a mormon friend who's parents didn't let him sleep over at my house on my birthday one year. We hung out at each other's houses daily, so I don't think they were uncomfortable with my family. My friend had never had a sleepover before either.

[Mickey Avalon]

Here's a serious theological question from an Eastern Rite Catholic who knows his early church history/theology: Theologically, what separates Mormonism from Arian Gnosticism? The combination of special revelation (golden tablets that only one man can read/see, when they're translated, disappear, all of which making unsubstantiated claims, i.e., Jesus in America, all added to a very limited modern group that gets to "talk" to God), along with salvation exclusivity (only Morons get into real-heaven) make the theology very questionable to me in the greater context of its roots. Y'see, I have difficulty seeing a connected line of theology from originating scripture to the Book of Mormon, especially with pesky things like claims that fly in the face of reason (Native Americans somehow white Israelites with their skin turned red). Yeah, I'm kind of a theology snob, but I'd like to hear the difference anyway, if there is one. Mormonism could be classified as a post-Arian Gnosticism by all technical definition anyway if I REALLY wanted to.

Freudian slip?

[Jeramii]

[IMG]http://i53.************/23qxc1l.jpg[/IMG]

anyone else find lds jesus pics to be borderline comical.

i remember when i was a kid. all pictures you see of jesus were sad, showing his suffering. but then in the late 90's they started adding a smile. then this pic came and gave him a big smile WITH TEETH.

also.

there is two artists, i can't remember the name of them. but you go into an active LDS family's house and there is always at least 3 or more paintings hung up by them... the one artist does nothing but little cottages near creeks. the other one does weird collages of things. like noah's ark with dinosaurs, unicorns, and a million other types of animals.. i can't think of the names right now. i'll edit my post if i remember.

people also have words printed on blocks of wood that are painted a dark blue, or a dark red. they usually say things in papyrus such as "family" "eternity" "love".

just thought i'd get that out of the way.

edit:

thomas kinkade. and eric dowdle. GAHHH.





my mom, and all my aunts eat this shit up.

[Lkr]

What do Mormons thinknabout those mormon commercials? The one where they show a normal family that loves their kids and then they're like btw we're Mormon?

[Hitokage]

Here's a serious theological question from an Eastern Rite Catholic who knows his early church history/theology: Theologically, what separates Mormonism from Arian Gnosticism? The combination of special revelation (golden tablets that only one man can read/see, when they're translated, disappear, all of which making unsubstantiated claims, i.e., Jesus in America, all added to a very limited modern group that gets to "talk" to God), along with salvation exclusivity (only Morons get into real-heaven) make the theology very questionable to me in the greater context of its roots. Y'see, I have difficulty seeing a connected line of theology from originating scripture to the Book of Mormon, especially with pesky things like claims that fly in the face of reason (Native Americans somehow white Israelites with their skin turned red). Yeah, I'm kind of a theology snob, but I'd like to hear the difference anyway, if there is one. Mormonism could be classified as a post-Arian Gnosticism by all technical definition anyway if I REALLY wanted to.

Much of early Mormon thought is contemporary to Early 19th Century New England, including Native Americans being lost tribes of Israel. Where they diverge is in the book Doctrine and Covenants, which is also a more primary source of theology than the Book of Mormon in modern Mormonism. For example, the Book of Mormon operates with the idea of the Trinity, but D&C and other works do not.

[Jeramii]

What do Mormons thinknabout those mormon commercials? The one where they show a normal family that loves their kids and then they're like btw we're Mormon?

family..... isn't it about, time?

(those are the only mormon commercials i know of).

HOLY SHIT, they got high budget since the last time i saw one of these commercials.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h1V0oJRyCc

[doomed1]

Freudian slip?

Oops! On some level yes, though I could technically fit that into my own theology as a sort of tongue in cheek way of saying "I am not worthy of the Kingdom of God because I am chief amongst sinners" or something like that. :P

You're missing the masonic element. but otherwise you're pretty close.

I'm actually not that familiar with Masonic practices. Care to elaborate? :3

[Dead Man]

Good luck with this thread, seems GAF has been on a bit of a roll lately with civil religion discussions. I know nothing about Mormonism except what a few door knockers told me once, so excuse me if I ask some stupid questions along the way.

[ronito]

I'm actually not that familiar with Masonic practices. Care to elaborate? :3

So essentially you have the stuff that's taught in scripture and in "conference" by the prophets/leaders. As Hito pointed out this can vary from being very close to Arian in basis to not. But I'd argue it never really goes too far from the Arian bits. Well it depends. Certainly it picks and chooses from Arian thought but I don't think it's intentional

Then there's all the stuff that happens in the temple, all of which is highly secret and highly masonic. I don't want to get into it here. Mormons hold the temple stuff to be very sacred and secret. But there's plenty of stuff about the temple endowment out there on the web a quick search should return what you want to know.

[Dresden]

Good luck with this thread, seems GAF has been on a bit of a roll lately with civil religion discussions. I know nothing about Mormonism except what a few door knockers told me once, so excuse me if I ask some stupid questions along the way.

I read Under the Banner of Heaven once, that's about all I know regarding Mormons. Interesting thread, didn't know there was a flowchart for salvation.

[bluemax]

What is so bad about coffee? Is it normal that Mormon kids have sheltered lives? When I grew up in socal, I had a mormon friend who's parents didn't let him sleep over at my house on my birthday one year. We hung out at each other's houses daily, so I don't think they were uncomfortable with my family. My friend had never had a sleepover before either.

It really depends on the parents. I slept over at other kids houses and what not. I knew other kids who were a lot more sheltered than me though at church.

[speculawyer]

The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation...There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.

LOL. Hard to deny that hardcore inherent racism. But the book of Mormon was written by a white guy in the early 1800s, so it was just a product of its time. It is nice that they've moved away from it.

I guess that is a nice thing about the religion is that unlike other religions that are more set in stone, the LDS church can evolve over time with new revelations.

[Slavik81]

http://www.vcaa.com/epistles/charts/PS-GE1.jpg

Wait. Does this mean I can convert to mormonism after death, then do a bunch of temple work to get to the lower rungs of awesome heaven?

[doomed1]

So essentially you have the stuff that's taught in scripture and in "conference" by the prophets/leaders. As Hito pointed out this can vary from being very close to Arian in basis to not. But I'd argue it never really goes too far from the Arian bits. Then there's all the stuff that happens in the temple, all of which is highly secret and highly masonic. I don't want to get into it here. Mormons hold the temple stuff to be very sacred and secret. But there's plenty of stuff about the temple endowment out there on the web a quick search should return what you want to know.

Eh, well that's not really my interest, my interest is the theological level. A related question: how does the Book of Mormon and related works get so much in terms of flexibility with wording and such? It's one thing with translations of millennial old literature in ancient language that's suffered thousands of years of oral tradition and miscopying, but with the Book of Mormon, it was written in the early 19th century with a God-mandated translation straight into the printing press. What doctrinal justification do they use to change the text of the editions?

[jamesinclair]

Here's my opinion on why mormons get a bad rep:

1) They're not diverse.

That is, take my neighbors. Parents, 7 kids, all blonde. I havent asked, but I'd bet large sums of money on them being mormons.

The black people down the street? I'd bet large sums of money that theyre not mormons.

What Im saying is, you can't pick out a muslim or catholic or anglican or jew at the store. A mormon family? Yup.


2) They preach.

Catholics (for example) no longer travel the world converting. Mormons? Well, let's put it like this, I lived in brazil, and every mormon I knew was a missionary. Not cool. Obviously, this goes for other evangelical groups as well.


3) Early kids.

It seems like because premarital sex is banned, mormoms rush to get married so they can have sex before they're 20 anyway. And with that, come the kids. Not cool. Obviously, not exclusive to mormons either.

4) The whole polygamy thing.


I have no problem with mormons, I'm just saying these are some reasons I think the religion gets such a bad rep. I enjoy reading threads like this to clarify stuff I didnt know about. I hadnt heard about the whole garden of eden in missouri thing for example. Also, mormon girls are hot, we should have a picture thread about them.

[speculawyer]

Wait. Does this mean I can convert to mormonism after death, then do a bunch of temple work to get to the lower rungs of awesome heaven?

I'm no expert on the religion . . . but yes, there is some process wherein people can have dead relatives 'baptized' into the church. It was a clever invention of the church and something needed by modern religions because how else can you deal with the injustice dealt to those who died before the religion even existed?

[speculawyer]

Here's my opinion on why mormons get a bad rep:

And here is the good rep from my outsider perspective:
1) Good work ethic.
2) Very moral.
3) Clean
4) Have that year of food stocked up.

[CF_Fighter]

To start off I'm Christian, more specific Episcopalian.

My questions are on two fronts.

What is the belief exactly around one becoming a god?

What is the purpose of baptizing those after they die who aren't even Christian to begin with? I know a number of LDS churches got in trouble because they were baptizing Jewish holocaust survivors who had passed and those who died during the holocaust.

[empty vessel]

The Book of Mormon narrative is inherently racist and the Mormon church was really late to the civil rights bandwagon, although from the late 70s on they've gradually put it behind them.

Which goes a long way to explaining this:



Although it may be a little unfair to blame that strictly on racism, because Mormons are the most conservative group in America right now, even more conservative than Southern evangelical Christians. So these numbers wouldn't be entirely unexpected (although they really do pretty plainly demonstrate just how much of an outlier Mormons really are.)

[Javaman]

my mom, and all my aunts eat this shit up.

Looks cozy until the spring time when the entire place is going to get washed away.

[dallow_bg]

Very nice civil thread going on here!

A lot of my extended family is Mormon though I am not.
I used to go the the Church as a child though.

Nicest people ever?

[Hitokage]

Although it may be a little unfair to blame that strictly on racism, because Mormons are the most conservative group in America right now, even more conservative than Southern evangelical Christians. So these numbers wouldn't be entirely unexpected (although they really do pretty plainly demonstrate just how much of an outlier Mormons really are.)

Yeah, a much better explanation includes things like Ezra Taft Benson being a John Birch Society supporter and the resulting politicization of the church.

[CF_Fighter]

Nicest people ever?

Quite possibly and they have some of the nicest teeth I've ever seen.

[Jeff-DSA]

What is the belief exactly around one becoming a god?

That's pretty complicated, but I'll try to sum it up.

Basically we believe that we're literal offspring of God. We're his spirit children and we lived together in a pre-existence. Without a body, we only could experience and learn so much, so God created a plan in which we could gain a body, experience mortality, be tempted, and prove our righteousness. After death we'd resurrect with a perfect body, having increased spiritual and physical knowledge. Upon being judged we receive a certain degree of glory based on our faithfulness during our mortal lives. Those that achieve the highest level of glory essentially become Gods and can continue to have spirit children of their own for eternity with our spouses.

There's scriptural references to back this all up, but basically it comes down to the belief that that we're heirs of God (Romans 8:17).

Those that aren't faithful enough receive a lower degree of glory, but our overall concept of heaven and hell is wildly different than most religions. See 1 Corinthians 15:40-41 and Matthew 13:43 for some references to that. We consider damnation to just be a ceasing of progress, not necessarily fire and brimstone. Even liars, thieves, and murderers will be in a place better off than this life, but it will be damnation in the fact that they have no eternal progression and they are cut off from the presence of God.

Wiki entry on the degrees of glory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrees_of_glory

[jamesinclair]

And here is the good rep from my outsider perspective: 1) Good work ethic. 2) Very moral. 3) Clean 4) Have that year of food stocked up.

I agree with that.

I think generally the perception is that mormon people = good, mormon religion = not so good. Mormon church and their efforts to destroy california = very bad.