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Sweden just got a new 5 star jail

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SeanR1221

Member
Shanadeus said:
It gets you freedom though.
Many in this thread are underestimating the importance and value of freedom.

People have theory of mind issues.

They look at the pictures and think, "Wow, what a luxury!" After a week I'd be sick of it. Sick of the people around me, I'd want to get out. I love my apartment, but if I couldn't even walk down the street to the coffee shop, it be terrible. Not being able to escape an aversive control is the very definition of lacking freedom.
 
Stabbie said:
How does that rehabilitate the prisoners? Once they're out they can return to their dump (or they don't have a home at all) with no job, and even if they find a job, they'll never be able to afford something as nice as those cells.
You're right. I'm sure they've wasted all that money because they didn't think of something so obvious.
 

womfalcs3

Banned
Getting 3 meals a day + nice living space + entertainment + recreational facilities all for free and guaranteed > freedom.

If I were struggling financially and homeless in Sweden, I'd be trying to find ways to get into that 5-star hotel.
 

AAequal

Banned
astroturfing said:
Sweden is an awesome country, i once had to spend a saturday night out on the streets of Stockholm with no place to go, and i did not see any criminals or even visibly drunk people. no fights or anything, no police sirens in the distance, nothing the whole night. every single person i saw acted civil. never felt so safe in a city at night.

so they must be doing something right. although this is a bit much, if even violent criminals can live in better conditions than most students... not cool.

we here in Finland have pretty nice prisons too apparently, there was a guy who slit his little brother's throat just to get back into he comfy prison he had just been released from... completely fucked up. ohh and we let even murderers go on "vacation" from jail. not joking.
Happens in Sweden too and actually they have more vacation days there. Idea behind these vacations are to keep prisoners social link intact with family and other close relatives.
 

Shanadeus

Banned
SeanR1221 said:
People have theory of mind issues.

They look at the pictures and think, "Wow, what a luxury!" After a week I'd be sick of it. Sick of the people around me, I'd want to get out. I love my apartment, but if I couldn't even walk down the street to the coffee shop, it be terrible. Not being able to escape an aversive control is the very definition of lacking freedom.
And there are many things that we take for granted that I doubt they have unfettered access too.

You wouldn't be able to play COD 24/7 here. You'd be on rehabilitation program after rehabilitation program, therapy and doing some actual work and maybe even get a degree to prepare you for your release so that you'll be able to get a job rather than returning to crime again.

SeanR1221 said:
Please tell me I've found another hard determinist like myself here.
You'll find a lot of us over here:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=23779147
 

Kapsama

Member
the sad part is that even with such nice prisons, sweden probably isn't spending $40k a year per inmate like the US does. Private slave prisons ftw.
 

FStop7

Banned
Xyphie said:
No joke that room is nicer than my student flat. :(

What's wrong with this country, srsly.

How do Sweden's violent crime stats compare to other countries in the region or the rest of the world?
 
SeanR1221 said:
People have theory of mind issues.

They look at the pictures and think, "Wow, what a luxury!" After a week I'd be sick of it. Sick of the people around me, I'd want to get out. I love my apartment, but if I couldn't even walk down the street to the coffee shop, it be terrible. Not being able to escape an aversive control is the very definition of lacking freedom.
Walk down to the coffee shop?! What do I look like, the butler?!
 
The punishment for criminal acts is supposed to be deprivation of liberty, i.e., of the freedom of movement. It is not supposed to be to live miserably in germ-infested squalor. If you doubt the severity of the former, try an experiment in which you do not leave your house for a two-week period. Even with all its amenities, you will be close to driven mad.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
I propose a tiered system in prisons.

If you're a dick you get moved to a shittier section. If you are an awesome prisoner you are 'promoted' to an awesome-r section.

Inmates can win freedom or very reduced sentences should they do something amazing to help humanity (in combination with very critical psycho analysis and only for the right types of inmates)
 

Boozeroony

Member
empty vessel said:
The punishment for criminal acts is supposed to be deprivation of liberty, i.e., of the freedom of movement. It is not supposed to be to live miserably in germ-infested squalor. If you doubt the severity of the former, try an experiment in which you do not leave your house for a two-week period. Even with all its amenities, you will be close to driven mad.

I think rehabilitation for relative small crimes goes better when the environment is good. I want to see the relapse statistics of this jail compared to other swedish/european jails.

I mean, they are still people and being locked up sucks, even if you have nice furniture.
 

Shanadeus

Banned
catfish said:
I propose a tiered system in prisons.

If you're a dick you get moved to a shittier section. If you are an awesome prisoner you are 'promoted' to an awesome-r section.

Inmates can win freedom or very reduced sentences should they do something amazing to help humanity (in combination with very critical psycho analysis and only for the right types of inmates)
Kinda like the karmic reincarnation cycle?
Problem is that the prisoners moved to the shittier section will be released eventually (unless you make all sentences life-sentences) which will probably come with less than pleasant results.
 

Boozeroony

Member
catfish said:
I propose a tiered system in prisons.

If you're a dick you get moved to a shittier section. If you are an awesome prisoner you are 'promoted' to an awesome-r section.

Inmates can win freedom or very reduced sentences should they do something amazing to help humanity (in combination with very critical psycho analysis and only for the right types of inmates)

Yeah, rewarding helps. It works just like society: if you do your best and behave, you move up the ladder. Many criminals just don't know how to behave in a socially accepted way.

Give them some rewarding tasks and personal coaching will help these people (not all of course...).
 

-viper-

Banned
fuck that shit.

all prisoners should be killed.

what a fucking joke sweden are.

lets give these murders and rapists complete luxury and entertainment. fucking great.
 
-viper- said:
fuck that shit.

all prisoners should be killed.

what a fucking joke sweden are.

lets give these murders and rapists complete luxury and entertainment. fucking great.
It's better in Somalia! No annoying due process to get in the way of your righteous slaughter.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
Shanadeus said:
Problem is that the prisoners moved to the shittier section will be released eventually (unless you make all sentences life-sentences) which will probably come with less than pleasant results.


well the ones in the shittier section (shitness scale is that of regular prisons, including max security) are basically the 'no hopers' the ones society will have to pay for forever to keep them out of our hair.

The top is is basically where the 'I screwed up and I'm real sorry about it' people will end up. It would work better than the current systems, where otherwise redeemable people learn horrible things by mixing with people that are worse than they are.
 

Articate

Banned
Shanadeus said:
Norway is great!
That's what you get when you have a tax of 50%+

Actually, we have a tax of 0-50%. I'm fairly certain no one pays more than 50% here. Me as a poor student pay something like 10-15%. We've got low crime-rates and incredible stories of reintegrating ex-prisoners back into society. I'm somewhat certain that there are very few circumstances that someone looking to hire you has the right to know if you've been in prison or not. We even have volunteer-programs where people help those that just got out of prison to not feel alone and be social in a good way.

And while we have a tax of 0-50%, the average citizen still has more buying power than anywhere else in the world. The only threat to our economy is that it's too stable.
 

faridmon

Member
Shanadeus said:
That's what you get when you have a tax of 50%+
No wonder my Mum works in Birmingham. That is just too much...
Articate said:
Actually, we have a tax of 0-50%. I'm fairly certain no one pays more than 50% here. Me as a poor student pay something like 10-15%. We've got low crime-rates and incredible stories of reintegrating ex-prisoners back into society. I'm somewhat certain that there are very few circumstances that someone looking to hire you has the right to know if you've been in prison or not. We even have volunteer-programs where people help those that just got out of prison to not feel alone and be social in a good way.

And while we have a tax of 0-50%, the average citizen still has more buying power than anywhere else in the world. The only threat to our economy is that it's too stable.
The problem is that, it is quite flexible and the Tax, could hurt you if you live under certain circumstances. My father is a school tecnician and pay 45% just becuase he lives in Norway by himself while the family live outside it. He doesn't earn a great deal of money so, It is quite hard especially since the rent in Oslo is fairly high.
 

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
Anyone citing Sweden's lack of violent crime juxtaposed to let's say the US is completely missing the point. Stuff like that is due to other factors such as better education at the elementary and high school levels, less poverty, strict gun control, a culture less accepting towards violent media, and a more homogenous population. You don't treat a fucking murderer like a hotel guest, even a one-star, that's fundamentally wrong. If you kill someone, it doesn't matter who you are, the primary goal shouldn't be to get you back into the gears of society, the goal should be to punish you for what you've done.

Now if we're talking other types of crime like theft, drug abuse, and whatnot, then yea, I suppose this type of system is a step up from what we have in the states.
 

Prisen

Member
If you have ever been to a "luxury hotel" that looked anything like those pictures, you have been RIPPED OFF!

Sub_Level said:
Anyone citing Sweden's lack of violent crime juxtaposed to let's say the US is completely missing the point. Stuff like that is due to other factors such as better education at the elementary and high school levels, less poverty, strict gun control, a culture less accepting towards violent media, and a more homogenous population. You don't treat a fucking murderer like a hotel guest, even a one-star, that's fundamentally wrong. If you kill someone, it doesn't matter who you are, the primary goal shouldn't be to get you back into the gears of society, the goal should be to punish you for what you've done.

Now if we're talking other types of crime like theft, drug abuse, and whatnot, then yea, I suppose this type of system is a step up from what we have in the states.

Murderers are like <1% of criminals right? So what you're saying is that Sweden is doing a better job in your opinion in >99% of the cases.
 
Sub_Level said:
Anyone citing Sweden's lack of violent crime juxtaposed to let's say the US is completely missing the point. Stuff like that is due to other factors such as better education at the elementary and high school levels, less poverty, strict gun control, a culture less accepting towards violent media, and a more homogenous population. You don't treat a fucking murderer like a hotel guest, even a one-star, that's fundamentally wrong. If you kill someone, it doesn't matter who you are, the primary goal shouldn't be to get you back into the gears of society, the goal should be to punish you for what you've done.

Why? Your authority alone is insufficient support for this proposition. Especially since you've essentially described murder as a product, at least in part, of factors outside an individual's control.

Punishment can satisfy emotions in the person doling it out, but it doesn't actually solve any real problems.
 

owlbeak

Member
Landning_highres.jpg
 
-viper- said:
fuck that shit.

all prisoners should be killed.

what a fucking joke sweden are.

lets give these murders and rapists complete luxury and entertainment. fucking great.

Why do people feel the need to say everything in hyperbole on the internet.

Unless you actually think all prisoners should be killed... in which case you're nuts.
 

Rapstah

Member
Dipindots said:
Damn, looks nicer than my apartment, that's for sure.
topphakten.jpg


This is one of the cells. Do you live in an apartment that's worse than this? All the other spaces are shared by everyone. This is the only area you can be alone in, and even then there are surveillance cameras watching you everywhere except on the bathroom.
 

KJTB

Member
Rapstah said:
This is one of the cells. Do you live in an apartment that's worse than this? All the other spaces are shared by everyone. This is the only area you can be alone in, and even then there are surveillance cameras watching you everywhere except on the bathroom.

I was talking about the other rooms, but yeah my room is a little better than that one. I live in a cheap apartment with 3 of my friends for college so the living room is never empty. I wasn't talking about the living conditions, in regards to the security surveillance, just noting that the overall aesthetics of the place seem more up to date than my apartment.
 

FStop7

Banned
catfish said:
I propose a tiered system in prisons.

If you're a dick you get moved to a shittier section. If you are an awesome prisoner you are 'promoted' to an awesome-r section.

Inmates can win freedom or very reduced sentences should they do something amazing to help humanity (in combination with very critical psycho analysis and only for the right types of inmates)

Things like this exist in varying degrees.
 
Sub_Level said:
Anyone citing Sweden's lack of violent crime juxtaposed to let's say the US is completely missing the point. Stuff like that is due to other factors such as better education at the elementary and high school levels, less poverty, strict gun control, a culture less accepting towards violent media, and a more homogenous population. You don't treat a fucking murderer like a hotel guest, even a one-star, that's fundamentally wrong. If you kill someone, it doesn't matter who you are, the primary goal shouldn't be to get you back into the gears of society, the goal should be to punish you for what you've done.
Yeah, no. It's the opposite. In civilized countries, justice and prisons are precisely to rehabilitate the criminal and convert him into a valuable asset for society. If it were for punishment, then we would have death penalty everyday in front of an audience, like in the Middle Ages.
 

Septy

Member
Not to mention this is a jail where nobody has been convicted of the crime they are being accused of. People like that are thrown into "tent-city" with convicted criminals in Arizona.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
FStop7 said:
Things like this exist in varying degrees.
yes but it should be promoted within the prisons more. Make that shit something prisoners are competing against each other to get. Person that bangs out the most license plates average over a year, guy who gets the most schooling done while inside etc etc.

People saying things like 'oh man it's better than being a student' are just being silly. with students, you have a future. these people are already cons and most will be severely limited in their potential from here on out.

A lot of people seem to view all criminals in the same light. this simply isn't true. You need to offer the good ones some hope and an out. otherwise, they'll just become worse criminals. I know this, because it's what I would do if I ended up in this situation.
 

Shanadeus

Banned
trineo_feo said:
Yeah, no. It's the opposite. In civilized countries, justice and prisons are precisely to rehabilitate the criminal and convert him into a valuable asset for society. If it were for punishment, then we would have death penalty everyday in front of an audience, like in the Middle Ages.
Or we'd be like Saudi Arabia.

Which I'd like to think we're better than.

catfish said:
yes but it should be promoted within the prisons more. Make that shit something prisoners are competing against each other to get. Person that bangs out the most license plates average over a year, guy who gets the most schooling done while inside etc etc.
I dunno, is competitiveness when it comes to someone's freedom really the sort of thing we want to encourage?
Sound like it might turn out pretty nasty.

If a karmic system is used it should be focused entirely on the individual and the self-improvement he or she does.
 
ZombieFred said:
I got to feel sorry how the homeles are treat in compared to the luxery prisoners are getting today. It's insane.

Yes, but if the suggestion is that prisoners should have worse accommodation as a result, that's kind of wrong. It's the government's responsibility to, believe it or not, keep these people safe and healthy.
 
LQX said:
Its suppose to be a determent, not a luxury away from your shitty life like this prison is.

If prison is a luxury away from a shitty life, then maybe the society is in need of a significant overhaul? Having said that, I don't think having one's liberty restricted can ever be characterized as a "luxury."
 

Shanadeus

Banned
empty vessel said:
If prison is a luxury away from a shitty life, then maybe the society is in need of a significant overhaul? Having said that, I don't think having one's liberty restricted can ever be characterized as a "luxury."
Not just liberty but privacy as well.

Isn't that the things we are supposed to fight and die for?

Can't believe people gloss over the loss of them so easy...
 

SolKane

Member
ConfusingJazz said:
Yup.

Small, ethnically homogeneous population centrally located around 1 or 2 major population centers.

Well, with the immigration rate it won't be ethnically homogenous for long.
 

LQX

Member
empty vessel said:
If prison is a luxury away from a shitty life, then maybe the society is in need of a significant overhaul? Having said that, I don't think having one's liberty restricted can ever be characterized as a "luxury."


When you get a setup like this for committing a crime it is luxury compared to many other prisons around the world. Prison should not be something you want to go back to if you fall on hard times.
haktessido1.jpg


haktessido2.jpg


haktessido3.jpg
 

Simplet

Member
empty vessel said:
The punishment for criminal acts is supposed to be deprivation of liberty, i.e., of the freedom of movement. It is not supposed to be to live miserably in germ-infested squalor. If you doubt the severity of the former, try an experiment in which you do not leave your house for a two-week period. Even with all its amenities, you will be close to driven mad.

I'm pretty sure I've done that and more before...
 
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