[otake]

START EXTREMELY OBVIOUS POINT The lack of a centralised spot for a bunch of the main characters to interact (like, say, Kings Landing from the first three books), really sucked a lot of the energy out of AFFC and ADWD. END EXTREMELY OBVIOUS POINT

Indeed. The last two books both drag because of it, all the plot threads are sort of random with barely a theme connecting them. At least that what it seems like. I'm nearly done with my second read of A Feast For Crows, after that I'm headed to Dance.

The Vicatarrion chapters are very good. The cersei chapters are excellent if you read them trying to figure out what everyone around her is trying to do and contrast it with what she thinks they are doing. The only chapters that suck are Brienne. It's just too fucking aimless. So many chapters all exploring the same theme with no possible plot development. These chapters while well written, they are at times redundant and poorly placed. Has to be an editing problem. But they do provide backstory to the world of westeros.

[Rez]

It's like, I get it, you're establishing Sam's dad as someone important, next plot point please.

[otake]

It's like, I get it, you're establishing Sam's dad as someone important, next plot point please.

He does it, and does it again in a Cersei chapter, Does it again in a grayjoy chapter and again in a Jaime chapter. Over and over.

[Blastoise]

I'm happy people are ranking AFFC last. That book (audiobook for me) was a chor to get through.

[Jokergrin]

book 1-3 = awesome, cant stop reading! Book 4-5 = terrible... what happened?!

ditto

[i_am_ben]

To be honest, I don't think Martin ended the first three books well either.

[Maffis]

book 1-3 = awesome, cant stop reading! Book 4-5 = terrible... what happened?!

4 and 5 wasn't as good as 3, but terrible? Nope. Not even close.

I rank 4 and 5 together with 1 and 2. 3 is still the best.

[Steelyuhas]

3>1>2>5>4

[CassSept]

List wars? List wars!
3>1>5>2>4

I'm not unsure about ACOK/ADWD, but I'd put ADWD just a smidgen above ACOK. If only it hadn't been cut early it could have easily been the second best book in the series.

[pr0cs]

I only found AFFC dull but still worth a read. I'll agree with the sentiment about the Brienne chapters, they just felt so aimless and dull/depressing.
I mean, we did potentially find out about Sandor's 'final resting place' but what a round-about way to introduce that.

[ezrarh]

If Dance had actually resolved the major plotlines that it set up it would've been a significantly better book.

This. Times a million. Have another chapter for Jon, let the Stannis/Bolton battle happen, and have the Meereen showdown happen and it'd be one of the bests. Would have been able to fit it in with less Dany and Tyrion chapters.

[John Dunbar]

Random question about ADWD: Where did Osha actually take Rickon? The whole cannibal thing with Davos and him being a sailor makes it sound like Skagos, but that doesn't really make sense. Didn't they go south, and Bran and co. went north? At first I thought maybe they were going to the Neck, and when Davos was sent there I thought there would finally be a POV with Howland, but I don't think the cannibal thing fits. And how did that mute kid manage to follow them long enough to find out they went to Skagos, all the way from Winterfell? Then there's the whole problem of them getting a boat. Did Osha build them one, or did they board one? A lady, a kid and a direwolf asking for a ride to Skagos might have raised some eyebrows.

But really, the mute kid following them for any long period of time to anywhere is just strange. Even if Osha could be fooled, how could he follow Shaggydog without being found out?

[AngryMoth]

Feast has the best extende passage in the series in Septon Meribalds broken men speech, which automatically raises it in my estimations. Its the best written of all the books. Plus I like the Brienne chapters

[Sotha Sil]

Feast has the best extende passage in the series in Septon Meribalds broken men speech, which automatically raises it in my estimations. Its the best written if all the books. Plus I like the Brienne chapters

Amen. Really loved re-reading Feast. The broken men monologue is amazing.

[Duane Cunningham]

Man, thinking about how Stannis is at war with the Boltons' skeleton crew inside Winterfell right after seeing him on screen almost taking King's Landing really drives home how far he's fallen.

[Tuck]

ADWD isn't as... focused as the first three, but thats because the story expanded itself so much. I didn't mind that. Besides, so many of the plot lines were converging of Meereen.

ezrarh: LESS Tyrion chapters? What? You crazy. More Barristan chapters would have been good though.

[dead souls]

This. Times a million. Have another chapter for Jon, let the Stannis/Bolton battle happen, and have the Meereen showdown happen and it'd be one of the bests. Would have been able to fit it in with less Dany and Tyrion chapters.

Martin could have included the various battles in the novel and ADWD still could have been cut down by 30-50% if he would just get an appropriately critical editor. There was just so much padding even by epic fantasy's ridiculously bloated page counts. I used to love Tyrion but by the midpoint of ADWD I dreaded seeing his fucking name as a chapter heading and don't even get me started about Dany.

[Sotha Sil]

ADWD isn't as... focused as the first three, but thats because the story expanded itself so much. I didn't mind that. Besides, so many of the plot lines were converging of Meereen. ezrarh: LESS Tyrion chapters? What? You crazy. More Barristan chapters would have been good though.

Focus and pace issues aside, I think my biggest problem with ADWD is Essos. I believe Martin has no emotional connection to this side of his world, and it's basically a place where bad stuff happen; where everything and everyone is out to kill/enslave/slice you. Westeros is no kind land either, but you can tell it's a fairly decent place in times of peace by medieval standards. Essos is pure evil, and it's no wonder most of the likable Essos-centered characters come from Westeros.

Well, that's how I see it, anyway.

[CassSept]

Focus and pace issues aside, I think my biggest problem with ADWD is Essos. I believe Martin has no emotional connection to this side of his world, and it's basically a place where bad stuff happen; where everything and everyone is out to kill/enslave/slice you. Westeros is no kind land either, but you can tell it's a fairly decent place in times of peace by medieval standards. Essos is pure evil, and it's no wonder most of the likable Essos-centered characters come from Westeros. Well, that's how I see it, anyway.

It's mostly Slaver's Bay though, Braavos seems pretty cool.

[iamblades]

It's mostly Slaver's Bay though, Braavos seems pretty cool.

^^ Braavos seems awesome in the books, and basically everything that happens there is exciting.

I can't wait to see how the show handles Braavos. I wonder where they will shoot it, Venice is of course the closest comparison, but I can't imagine shooting in Venice on a TV show budget. Venice is also probably too well known to work.

[ezrarh]

ADWD isn't as... focused as the first three, but thats because the story expanded itself so much. I didn't mind that. Besides, so many of the plot lines were converging of Meereen. ezrarh: LESS Tyrion chapters? What? You crazy. More Barristan chapters would have been good though.

I'm sorry, there's only so much emo Tyrion and Penny I can take! More Barristan chapters however, that I agree with.

And yes, Braavos seems very cool but it's just going to be Arya there right? I'm wondering how they're going to handle her because it's just going to be training scenes for a while and we still don't have a clue how she's going to affect the main story. I don't know if they're going to make a new set for that even if she is a fan favorite.

[Sotha Sil]

Braavos is definitely cool but it's essentially Venice, so I kind of think of it as a Westerosi city. Good point, though.

[iamblades]

I'm sorry, there's only so much emo Tyrion and Penny I can take! More Barristan chapters however, that I agree with. And yes, Braavos seems very cool but it's just going to be Arya there right? I'm wondering how they're going to handle her because it's just going to be training scenes for a while and we still don't have a clue how she's going to affect the main story. I don't know if they're going to make a new set for that even if she is a fan favorite.

Mostly just Arya, but Sam and co stop there on the way to oldtown.

I imagine they will rely on a couple CGI establishing shots of the city and shoot a lot of the interiors on repurposed sets they've already built or cobbled together out of stuff they've already built. The only new interior set they really need to build is the House of Black and White. Exteriors could be tricky though. A lot of stuff takes place on busy docks and canals, which means a lot of budget for extras and probably some cgi to make the scenes fit into the city.

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Yeah Essos bores me outside of Braavos. Reading Danys chapters in ADWD was painful, tyrions being only slightly better.

[Steelyuhas]

Random question about ADWD: Where did Osha actually take Rickon? The whole cannibal thing with Davos and him being a sailor makes it sound like Skagos, but that doesn't really make sense. Didn't they go south, and Bran and co. went north? At first I thought maybe they were going to the Neck, and when Davos was sent there I thought there would finally be a POV with Howland, but I don't think the cannibal thing fits. And how did that mute kid manage to follow them long enough to find out they went to Skagos, all the way from Winterfell? Then there's the whole problem of them getting a boat. Did Osha build them one, or did they board one? A lady, a kid and a direwolf asking for a ride to Skagos might have raised some eyebrows. But really, the mute kid following them for any long period of time to anywhere is just strange. Even if Osha could be fooled, how could he follow Shaggydog without being found out?

I think Skagos is the general assumption, but no one knows for sure.

[arglebargle]

I read all the books back to back on my kindle so the whole thing read like one giant book to me, so it's hard in retrospect to name which book I prefer. Immediately afterwards I could have, but I can't even remember what events happened in which novels anymore.

i read them the same way and feel similarly. by the end there were characters i would groan when i saw there names to start a chapter, but thats more a testament to how badly i wanted to know what some other character was doing.

[Tuck]

i read them the same way and feel similarly. by the end there were characters i would groan when i saw there names to start a chapter, but thats more a testament to how badly i wanted to know what some other character was doing.

This post reminds me:

GRRM really needs to stop naming chapters anything other than the name of the character.

I know what you are thinking. "Tuck, isn't that a really stupid thing to complain about?"

Probably. But I usually base whether or not I will read another chapter or not based on the POV. So for example, if I had already been reading for a while and I see a line up of Tyrion > Arya > Jon > Sansa, I'd push forward. But if I see Cersei > Jamie > Aeron > Cersei, I'd say screw it and call it a night.

Very annoying not being able to tell with a glance.

/Minor nitpick no one else probably gives a damn about.

[theignoramus]

sweet jesus, I'm glad I didnt jump into AFFC back in 2005. I really like that book (which is funny, since so many people list it as their least favourite) I loved getting inside Cersei's head while the bitch ran herself into the ground, I loved discovering more about Dorne, the Iron islands, and Braavos. it's incomplete, but it's a more compelling read than the second book, CoK. Unlike CoK, AFFC has very little set up. It's about fallout from the Red Wedding and Joff,Tywin and Balon Greyjoy's deaths, so it has WAY more immediacy to it.


But fuck me, that ending is a troll. I would have been mad salty if I had to wait 6 years for the second half of a book the author told me was coming in a year or so. lol. the benefits of being late to the party.

[wackojackosnose]

Man, thinking about how Stannis is at war with the Boltons' skeleton crew inside Winterfell right after seeing him on screen almost taking King's Landing really drives home how far he's fallen.

I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.

Stannis is such a badass motherfucker.

[RaginRoss]

Finished Dance with Dragons last night(poor Kevan) - glad to finally be able to read through this thread and see some of the theories people are coming up with!

Edit - Also i've just realised that the singer 'Abel' at Winterfell was actually Mance. Dunno how I missed that one...

[Roland Deschain]

But fuck me, that ending is a troll. I would have been mad salty if I had to wait 6 years for the second half of a book the author told me was coming in a year or so. lol. the benefits of being late to the party.

Well, now you're in the same boat as the rest of us. Hope you like waiting... ;-)

[Orlandu84]

book 1-3 = awesome, cant stop reading! Book 4-5 = terrible... what happened?!

To overly simplify things a lot, Martin had two ideas that would not work. Firstly, he wanted a five year gap between ASOS and ADWD so that younger characters could mature. Unfortunately, he could not make the five year gap work so he invented AFFC to bridge the evens between ASOS and ADWD. The second idea was to split AFFC and ADWD geographically in order to focus on sets of characters and thus parts of the whole story - one group for each book. Accordingly, Martin soon found himself in a logistics mess of sorts - which plot points and developments to go where and when.

You can read in more detail at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Song_...ishing_history

IMHO that AFFC and ADWD developed as well as they did demonstrates how good of a writer Martin can be even when he handicaps himself. I look at AFFC as the equivalent of Frodo and Sam's journey to Mordor - a very long and grueling read that makes you appreciate the rest of the story more.

[Basileus777]

The latter ASOIAF books are a testament to the dangers of discovery writing an epic fantasy series. GRRM didn't outline or detail things out in advance, so he ran into severe structural problems that set back his writing a decade. He had a vague plan for a 5 year gap, started writing and realized that it was unfeasible, and the entire structure of the story fell apart. If he had known the gap was unworkable, he would have written the end of ASOS differently, and the following books would have been in a much better shape as a result.

[theignoramus]

If Dany comes back to Westeros with an army and subdues the Others, is a there a chance Stannis acquiesces to her claim to the throne?

[Chococat]

Doing a reread of the series right now. After finishing ADwD and going right to AGoT, I found a funny Sansa thought while she is attending King Joffery in court.

"Sansa stared hard at his ugly face (Lord Slynt), ...wishing that some hero would throw him down and chop off his head. There are no heroes, and she remembered what Lord Petyr had said to her.... "Life is not a song, sweetling,"....

I got a chuckle that Sansa's hero she wishes for is her bastard brother, Jon Snow, who she thinks is a lesser man. And that Little Finger is wrong, their lives are a part of the bitter sweet song of Ice and Fire.

Far as ranking the books, I'm going to have to wait till I am completely the reread. I didn't find Dance to be bad- it was a bit long winded. Many events could have been summarized. Dany's chapters suffered.

I like Feast except for the Brennie's chapters because they slowed the story down after the breakneck pace of Swords. I think I'll appreciate them more the second time around for the world building aspect.

I'm starting Clash now and I am finding it hard to remember any of Dany's story. Dany herself is interesting and I did enjoy her story in AGoT- but after that the whole Essos story is just so unconnected to Westros, I find them hard to read or care about.

[John Dunbar]

By the way, what do people think about the theory that Euron used to sexually molest Aeron as a kid? At first it sounded kinda far-fetched, but upon reading the clues, it seems like the most logical conclusion to me.

[Sir Fragula]

By the way, what do people think about the theory that Euron used to sexually molest Aeron as a kid? At first it sounded kinda far-fetched, but upon reading the clues, it seems like the most logical conclusion to me.

What clues? Do list!

[ZeroRay]

The "rusty iron hinge" opening when Aeron was in bed always came to his mind whenever he's thinking about Euron or in his presence, and how he always quickly tries to bury the thought.

It honestly flew over the first time.

[John Dunbar]

What clues? Do list!

Aeron, who doesn't seem easily rattled, seems to be absolutely terrified of Euron, and his thoughts about him, back before he was born again, involve "a rusty hinge" opening.

Stuff like this (From Feast):

"That man is dead. Aeron had drowned and been reborn from the sea, the god's own prophet. No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could... nor memories the bones of the soul. The sound of a door being opened, the scream of a rusty hinge. Euron Crow's Eye has come again. It did not matter. He was the Damphair priest, beloved of the god."

"The sound came softly, the scream of a rusty hinge. "Urri," he muttered, and woke fearful. There is no hinge here, no door, no Urri."

"He had run before the Crow's Eye as if he were still the weak thing he had been, but when the waves broke over his head they reminded once more that man was dead. I was reborn from the sea, a harder man and stronger. No mortal could frighten him, no more than darkness could, nor the bones of his soul, the grey and grisly bones of his soul. The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hinge."

"Even a can priest doubt. Even a prophet may know terror. Aeron Damphair reached within himself for his god and discovered only silence. As a thousand voices chanted his brother's name, all he could hear was the scream of a rusty hinge."

I also recall himself thinking himself feminine or a girl back then, (don't remember exact words, but in Victarion chapters men being raped are "used as women"). Basically it sounds like Euron would come to Aeron's and Urri's room and do something to them when they were young. Sexual abuse would fit, but it could of course have something to do with the death of Urri, or perhaps Euron dabbled in magic even back then, which I reckon would unsettle Aeron. But considering Finger Dancing is common with the Ironborn, I don't think simple violence could explain Aeron's attitude towards Euron. I'm going with rape until proven otherwise.

[otake]

It is very interesting how Euron scares the shit out of everybody ironborn and yet, when we see him he seems harmless. Victarrion is nervous as fuck in his presence.

[PhoenixPause]

If Dany comes back to Westeros with an army and subdues the Others, is a there a chance Stannis acquiesces to her claim to the throne?

Why should he? Stannis is the true heir to the throne. If Dany can take the throne sure, it's hers. But is not owed to her considering her father lost the crown in a rebellion.

I could see him decided to cede the throne and focus on defeating the Others, but then again ADWD sets him up for quite a political and military resurrection (support from the Iron Bank, potential consolidation of the Northern armies/houses, hiring 20k sell swords, etc). If he routes the Boltons as seems likely (somewhere Martin is laughing...), he'll be in quite a good position.

[Gruco]

Feast for Crows has many of my favorite moments in the series.

Princess in the Tower is a fantastic payoff to the Dorne chapters, simply because of the emotional tension between Doran and Arianne, who both clearly love and are completely disappointed by one another.

Brienne's entire sequence is awesome because of the "war makes monsters of us all" motif - Seption Meribald's speech was great, but beyond that there was the Brotherhood living the story, with Lem taking the hound helm.

And Jaime's chapters were also great, as he had to figure out how to handle duty with his greatest strength gone and an expectation on no honor despite his intentions. And his aunt's comment about how Tyrion is Tywin's son was perfect.

Also Braavos.

I get that it was disappointing for so many people because it lacks the dramatic twists of Storm, and cut off so many storylines. But what it lacks in twists it more than makes up for in great lines and a more personal level of drama.

I am a little different though - Tyrion's scenes in Dance were my favorite because he became the eyes of the little guy in Essos, much as Brienne and Arya were for the Riverlands. I tend to really like the breaks from the twists of the major families that go into how all of the decisions being made by the big guys effect everyone else.

[CassSept]

Brienne's entire sequence is awesome because of the "war makes monsters of us all" motif - Seption Meribald's speech was great, but beyond that there was the Brotherhood living the story, with Lem taking the hound helm.

Yeah, but her preceding chapters are a chore. Especially ummm, I believe Brienne's second chapter. Or maybe it was the third. Anyways, I've only managed to get through it on my third-fourth try, quite probably the worst chapter in the whole series. Until she meets Septon Meribald her story is easily by far the worst and most boring out of all the books.

It is kind of reminiscent of Arya's ASOS chapters, only with everything that made them interesting ripped out, burned alive, dismembered and then buried somewhere between dinosaur skeletons.

[JerkShep]

I always loved the idea of a 5 year gap. I think a lot of storylines are going to feel "rushed" without it. Sam becoming a Maester, Arya becoming an assassin, Bran learning Bloodraven's secrets. Can they really do it in months-a year (considering there are two..maybe three more books)? Do we really need another book (the third one..) with three chapters of Arya learning something in Bravoos? Maybe GRRM is going to do something entirely different and it will work, I don't know...

[ZeroRay]

It is very interesting how Euron scares the shit out of everybody ironborn and yet, when we see him he seems harmless. Victarrion is nervous as fuck in his presence.

Martin actually offered to read Aeron's cut DwD chapter last year at WorldCon (the crowd chose Arianne).

Martin responded with something along the lines of, "are you sure, Aeron's has a lot of messed up stuff in it?" So basically we'll have to wait till WoW to find out more about Euron (or GRRM may just do a reading/give us a sample).

[Cornballer]

- Sports Illustrated Q&A: George R.R. Martin

Some amusing sports/ASoIaF content in here and also this tidbit:

MARTIN: I do get invitations all of the time to play actual fantasy football, by the way, but I get the feeling that I'd like it too much. I have enough demands on my time. My fans would kill me. SI: Yes, your fans are known to be very... anxious. If you had to bet, which will happen first: Your next book is published? Or your Jets win a Super Bowl? MARTIN: Probably my next book. SI: You sound defeated. MARTIN: I have to have the next book out in less than five years. And I think the Jets have taken a step back.

[cubicle47b]

Feast for Crows has many of my favorite moments in the series. Princess in the Tower is a fantastic payoff to the Dorne chapters, simply because of the emotional tension between Doran and Arianne, who both clearly love and are completely disappointed by one another. Brienne's entire sequence is awesome because of the "war makes monsters of us all" motif - Seption Meribald's speech was great, but beyond that there was the Brotherhood living the story, with Lem taking the hound helm. And Jaime's chapters were also great, as he had to figure out how to handle duty with his greatest strength gone and an expectation on no honor despite his intentions. And his aunt's comment about how Tyrion is Tywin's son was perfect. Also Braavos. I get that it was disappointing for so many people because it lacks the dramatic twists of Storm, and cut off so many storylines. But what it lacks in twists it more than makes up for in great lines and a more personal level of drama. I am a little different though - Tyrion's scenes in Dance were my favorite because he became the eyes of the little guy in Essos, much as Brienne and Arya were for the Riverlands. I tend to really like the breaks from the twists of the major families that go into how all of the decisions being made by the big guys effect everyone else.

I just finished re-reading A Feast For Crows and loved it this (second) time whereas I'd found it disappointing and frustrating the first time. Looking back, here are the reasons why I had a tough time with it in 2005:

- The book had three or four new settings, new PoVs in old storylines, new storylines, multiple new PoVs per new storyline, etc. It was disorienting.

- It wasn't clear how the Iron Islands and Dorne were important to the main storyline until the end of the book (and maybe ADwD, really) and Brienne's quest felt pointless because you knew she wouldn't find Arya or Sansa. Plus I just flat out hated Cersei.

- It didn't advance the storylines of a lot of my favorite characters since they weren't in the book and I'd already waited 4-5 years to see what happened to them.

- I devour new books (in a series) when they come out to see what happens. I start reading and don't stop (aside from going to work / sleeping) until I'm done. Everything gets jumbled together, I forget a lot of important details, I miss connections, etc. The second time I read a book I'm more relaxed and more willing to take a break and think about or re-read sections so I pick up on a lot more.

On this re-read, these reasons were just no longer applicable. There were a few slow parts like the start of Brienne's story and I still hate Cersei but for the most part the book was a joy to read. The second half of Brienne's journey, starting with the introduction of Septon Maribald, really stands out and the ending chapters for each character are fantastic.

edit: One thing I found really amusing was Littlefinger talking about how Cersei had self-destructed a lot faster than he'd thought and he'd initially figured he had 4-5 years to plan but was lucky he thrived on chaos. Perfect.

He did not hold her kiss against her. “You would not believe half of what is happening in King’s Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast. It is quite vexing. I had hoped to have four or five quiet years to plant some seeds and allow some fruits to ripen, but now . . . it is a good thing that I thrive on chaos. What little peace and order the five kings left us will not long survive the three queens, I fear.”

[cubicle47b]

Why should he? Stannis is the true heir to the throne. If Dany can take the throne sure, it's hers. But is not owed to her considering her father lost the crown in a rebellion. I could see him decided to cede the throne and focus on defeating the Others, but then again ADWD sets him up for quite a political and military resurrection (support from the Iron Bank, potential consolidation of the Northern armies/houses, hiring 20k sell swords, etc). If he routes the Boltons as seems likely (somewhere Martin is laughing...), he'll be in quite a good position.

I think Stannis will win the north and consolidate power but be swept over by the Others by the time Dany gets to Westeros. She'll meet them at the Trident.

[shintoki]

Gonna say Feast is the second best book. Only behind Storm of Swords with Dance of Dragons being last, and not a very good book at all.

For me, I loved Feast. Getting to see how full of shit Cersei, Jamie trying to finally be the made he wanted to be in a way, the Ironborn getting some much needed life, and Brienna's closer look at the world. It has a few problems, but it packed a lot into it.

Compared to Dance which packed very little, felt aimless and afraid to really resolve any plot points.

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

- Sports Illustrated Q&A: George R.R. Martin Some amusing sports/ASoIaF content in here and also this tidbit:

Fuck he kind of sets a target date there, and he never ever meets those. We're in for 10 years.