[WeAreStarStuff]

Pretty surprised at the variety of rankings here.

I'd rank them,

SOS > COK > DWD > GOT > AFFC.

I started reading the books when season one started on HBO, and have read all of the books twice if that makes any difference.

[Dresden]

SOS at the top, COK second, the other books follow with DWD being the worst.

[pr0cs]

SOS at the top, COK second, the other books follow with DWD being the worst.

Wow that's pretty surprising. The Theon chapters alone made ADWD awesome for me.

[Angry Grimace]

Fuck he kind of sets a target date there, and he never ever meets those. We're in for 10 years.

I sort of wonder why it takes so much longer to write the later books than the earlier ones. I can't really imagine its just because he doesn't want to write them.

[shintoki]

I sort of wonder why it takes so much longer to write the later books than the earlier ones. I can't really imagine its just because he doesn't want to write them.

Its easy to create a world. Its fucking hard to actually have to explain. Same as most other fantasy series.

[Iksenpets]

SoS > GoT > CoK > AFFC > DwD

DwD is really the odd man out for me. Feast suffers for its slowness, but is otherwise great. Theon is great in DwD, but the book is just an editing nightmare. The fact that the ending was cut when there's so much obvious fluff is near criminal.

And lol if GRRM thinks 5 years is an good time frame for Winds. I'd say hes got 3 before the show starts to lap him. Two to cover SoS and one for the first half of Feast/Dance, and then at that point the writers will probably want to start peeking at those unreleased Winds chapters so they can end season six on a proper climax.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

I would probably say:
Storm>Dance>Clash>Feast>Game

I love all the books, though. But Game is easily the slowest book; the first half is a really slow burn (far slower than even Brienne's chapters in Feast), and I feel like it's the weakest of the books overall. I still do love it, though.

Storm is easily the best. Right now I would say Dance is second, but my opinions may change as I read through the books again.

[gdt]

Storm>Clash>Dance>Game>Feast

Okay, some random thoughts about the series (on my third read through)





How do we take the Hound...as a man? Probably the grayest character around. Defends Loras from The Mountain...but kills the butcher boy with nary a sweat. I'm assuming he'll join/has joined The Brotherhood as well.



How come neither Jorah nor Barriston sat down Dany and told her what her father was really like. Like boil people for no reason crazy. Also, Barriston is a wealth of info for Dany, we never got him giving her some nice talks in DWD.

"Tell me of my brother/The Usurper/The Starks"

"I will soon"

Bah, frustrating! For whatever fanboy reason, it also annoys me that Dany thinks Ned Stark was some huge asshole, when Barriston could've told her he was a true man of honor. Such a random annoyance, but there it is.

[Jibbajabbawockky]

ASoS>AGoT>ACoK>ADwD>AFfC

I actually really like A Game of Thrones alot as its probably the leanest book in terms of editing and having very little wasted material. But Storm is just so good because so much stuff hits the fan and you have multiple narrative payoffs. Clash is good but I was a little disappointed with when first reading it, up until probably Renly got killed. I recall thinking it was a bit of a slow burn, with all the Tyrion chapters with Shae and Dany's story slowing down in Qarth. Its really a setup book for ASoS.

Dance I'd rank above Feast if only because the chapters in the North in Dance is some of the better material GRRM has written in any of his books. It more than makes up for the totally lackluster Dany and to some extent Tyrion chapters. Feast isn't bad by any stretch but it suffers for having to introduce so many new characters in it and lacking so many familiar faces like Jon or Tyrion. Ultimately, I'd love to see somebody try to edit Feast and Dance together in one big volume.

How do we take the Hound...as a man? Probably the grayest character around. Defends Loras from The Mountain...but kills the butcher boy with nary a sweat. I'm assuming he'll join/has joined The Brotherhood as well.

Wait, didn't the Hound die? Didn't Arya leave him to die beneath a tree somewhere after they killed the Tickler? I remember somebody stealing his helmet and sort of impersonating him in Feast, but his fate was sort of left unclear or likely that he died, as I recall.

[hemtae]

Wait, didn't the Hound die? Didn't Arya leave him to die beneath a tree somewhere after they killed the Tickler? I remember somebody stealing his helmet and sort of impersonating him in Feast, but his fate was sort of left unclear or likely that he died, as I recall.

Brienne sees a gravedigger that would match Sandor's description. The person that Brienne meets says that The Hound is dead likely meaning that part of Sandor is dead.

[PhoenixPause]

ASOS>ACOK>AGOT>ADWD>AFFC

I need to re-read ADWD actually

[KuwabaraTheMan]

How do we take the Hound...as a man? Probably the grayest character around. Defends Loras from The Mountain...but kills the butcher boy with nary a sweat. I'm assuming he'll join/has joined The Brotherhood as well.

He's one of the more compelling non-POV characters. I've always loved his interactions since Sansa dating back to the first book, and I think it is very interesting to see the contrast of emotions and actions he takes.

I'm not really sure where his story goes from here, but I imagine that unGregor gives him a chance to finish his life's ambition.

How come neither Jorah nor Barriston sat down Dany and told her what her father was really like. Like boil people for no reason crazy. Also, Barriston is a wealth of info for Dany, we never got him giving her some nice talks in DWD.

Barristan does try and drop in some info about Aerys at various points, but Dany seems a bit unwilling to fully believe them (I remember the bit where he was talking about Jahaerys saying that genius and madness were two sides of a coin and such). A lot of it probably comes from Viserys being her only source of information on her family up until this point.

[Lax Mike]

Brienne sees a gravedigger that would match Sandor's description. The person that Brienne meets says that The Hound is dead likely meaning that part of Sandor is dead.

And I'm pretty sure that Brienne claims to Jaime that he is holding Sansa captive in ADWD. Is there any chance that there is actually some truth to that statement, in that Sandor did actually reappear between AFFC and that chapter?

And on a related note, is it possible that Brienne actually did die in AFFC, and she was revived once Cat realized what she had become, and became overwhelmed with guilt, and so gave Brienne the life that Beric had given to her?

[PhoenixPause]

And I'm pretty sure that Brienne claims to Jaime that he is holding Sansa captive in ADWD. Is there any chance that there is actually some truth to that statement, in that Sandor did actually reappear between AFFC and that chapter? And on a related note, is it possible that Brienne actually did die in AFFC, and she was revived once Cat realized what she had become, and became overwhelmed with guilt, and so gave Brienne the life that Beric had given to her?

I thought she was clearly tricking him in order for him to follow her.

[rando14]

Yeah that was obviously a trick.

[Tuck]

And I'm pretty sure that Brienne claims to Jaime that he is holding Sansa captive in ADWD. Is there any chance that there is actually some truth to that statement, in that Sandor did actually reappear between AFFC and that chapter? And on a related note, is it possible that Brienne actually did die in AFFC, and she was revived once Cat realized what she had become, and became overwhelmed with guilt, and so gave Brienne the life that Beric had given to her?

Not a chance, I think. She may have that realization at some point however - possibly after finding out that Rickon and Bran are still alive*.

Either way, by series end, shes dead (again).

*More likely, some one kills her to force her into rest.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

I sort of wonder why it takes so much longer to write the later books than the earlier ones. I can't really imagine its just because he doesn't want to write them.

Well, keep in mind that Martin originally planned the series as a trilogy with the first book covering roughly what the first three did. It was while he was writing A Game of Thrones that he realized eventually that he had written too much to fit in one book and wasn't even halfway done with the plot he had planned for it. So, while writing both Clash and Storm he had a large amount of leftover material, and he was still essentially writing the plot he had planned out for a single book. He obviously would have had the first book planned out the most clearly when he started; that just wound up turning into the first three books. I think this is the biggest reason that he was able to turn around Clash and Storm so quickly, and why the later books have taken much longer. He's gotten into the point in the story where his initial plans were likely much less specific.

Coupled with that, the aborted five year gap screwed up a lot of things, and the story in general has gotten more complicated. Each book winds up more complex than the last, and it's tough to keep piling things on. A Clash of Kings had 9 POVs centered around about five main locations, while Dance has sixteen POVs spread all across the globe. It's no great surprise that the latter was a more complicated book to write.

[Steelyuhas]

"Tell me of my brother/The Usurper/The Starks" "I will soon" Bah, frustrating! For whatever fanboy reason, it also annoys me that Dany thinks Ned Stark was some huge asshole, when Barriston could've told her he was a true man of honor. Such a random annoyance, but there it is.

Honestly, when I was reading ACOK for the first time, I fully expected Barristan to track down Robb and join his cause after seeing Ned so clearly wronged and then having the same thing happen to him as a part of that fallout.

[bengraven]

Did Joffrey die before or after the Red Wedding? It was before, right? Sansa was still a captive when Robb died?


Also:

Storm>Game>Clash>Dance>Feast

[Nlroh]

Joffrey died after the Red Wedding.

[Steelyuhas]

Did Joffrey die before or after the Red Wedding? It was before, right? Sansa was still a captive when Robb died? Also: Storm>Game>Clash>Dance>Feast

Joffrey's wedding is after the Red wedding. Sansa was still in King's Landing during Joffrey's wedding (married to Tyrion), and in the chaos of Joffrey's death she escapes.

[Lax Mike]

I thought she was clearly tricking him in order for him to follow her.

Obviously since we're aware of Sansa's current situation, but I just found it odd that she would single out the Hound as threatening Sansa, rather than just saying bandits had taken her or something along those lines. I mean if she really wanted him to come, couldn't she have said she found Tyrion? That would seem like something much more likely to convince Jaime to come with her than anything.

I just have a feeling that the Hound still has a part to play, and this is a great place for him to re-enter the story.

[bengraven]

Joffrey died after the Red Wedding.

Joffrey's wedding is after the Red wedding. Sansa was still in King's Landing during Joffrey's wedding (married to Tyrion), and in the chaos of Joffrey's death she escapes.

Okay, I suddenly realized that if Joffrey doesn't die until Season 4 likely, then that means Jaime will be traveling with Brienne until at least midway through Season 4. Since he arrives during Joff's wake.

[-Pyromaniac-]

I still think they end next season with Joffrey's death, the episode after the Red Wedding. Or 2 episodes after. I know it doesn't make 100% sense logistically but they'll figure it out.

[iamblades]

Okay, I suddenly realized that if Joffrey doesn't die until Season 4 likely, then that means Jaime will be traveling with Brienne until at least midway through Season 4. Since he arrives during Joff's wake.

I think they have to squeeze that into season 3. If they don't, the season will be super dark, and turn a whole bunch of people off.

Also a climactic event like that would make no sense to happen in the first couple of episodes of a season.

Plus not much really happens in between those events(certainly nothing major that needs to be in between in order to fit the timeline). Plus season 4 will have plenty of it's own climactic events. The viper/mountain duel, tyrion's escape, the climax of the arya/hound storyline.

Im worried they might push it to season 4 though, I hope they don't.

[apana]

As you guys know by now Shireen has been cast and they got quite an accomplished young actress, Kerry Ingram to play her. What role do you guys think Shireen will play? It seems like they need to cast Patchface as well.





I hope I don't need to tell you which one will be playing Shireen. Photoshops plz

[ZeroRay]

I think they have to squeeze that into season 3. If they don't, the season will be super dark, and turn a whole bunch of people off. Also a climactic event like that would make no sense to happen in the first couple of episodes of a season. Plus not much really happens in between those events(certainly nothing major that needs to be in between in order to fit the timeline). Plus season 4 will have plenty of it's own climactic events. The viper/mountain duel, tyrion's escape, the climax of the arya/hound storyline. Im worried they might push it to season 4 though, I hope they don't.

They could have a Blackwater type episode for episode 10, simply focusing on the events in King's Landing and Joffrey's wedding to end the season, and have everything that happens to the other characters in between during the start of season 4.

They don't have to follow the story in the order it was presented in the books as this season has shown.

[endre]

I have been meaning to ask. Whats with the dialog between Jaqen and Arya at the end of the S02E10 promo clip? Are they hinting another tv show plot change?

[ZeroRay]

http://tindeck.com/listen/vkxz

[Pkaz01]

I have been meaning to ask. Whats with the dialog between Jaqen and Arya at the end of the S02E10 promo clip? Are they hinting another tv show plot change?

nah he is probably going to tell her to come along and she is going to say no. I don't know what the will do with the face change

[M.D]

Just wanted to ask a question - English is not my native language, but I can understand most TV shows and films just fine. Do you think it will be possible for me to read the books in English?

[pr0cs]

Just wanted to ask a question - English is not my native language, but I can understand most TV shows and films just fine. Do you think it will be possible for me to read the books in English?

it would be easier to read the books than follow a show, if you get stuck on a word or phrase just look it up.

[Kapsama]

Just wanted to ask a question - English is not my native language, but I can understand most TV shows and films just fine. Do you think it will be possible for me to read the books in English?

I think so. The language in the books is very simple outside of a few old words he uses.

[neoemonk]

I definitely have Dance as my number two, but i should reread the series again. I read the Dark Tower series as they came out, and they had a drop in quality after the fourth book, and there was also a long wait in between books. I was terrified that Dance would be awful, and was elated that it wasn't. Perhaps with a reread that will change.

[28 Posts Later]

As you guys know by now Shireen has been cast and they got quite an accomplished young actress, Kerry Ingram to play her. What role do you guys think Shireen will play? It seems like they need to cast Patchface as well.

All this says is that Shireen will be a somewhat important character in future novels. Her role so far is so minute and her characterization so lacking she's exactly the kind of character I'd have expected the show to cut.

And since we're making lists:

ASoS > ACoK > AGoT > AFfC > ADwD

Upon reflection I thought Dance ended up pretty terrible; it's the only novel in the series I've had to force myself to finish. AFFC was pretty weak too, but I put that down to being the novel after ASOS and the fact it has a slower pace given the events that occur. Unlike ADwD however, I rarely felt [with the exception of the Brienne chapters] that AFFC was deliberately wasting my time.

[ZeroRay]

If they don't cast Patchface, they can combine the two characters.

The creepy, prophetic little girl trope is due for a spin.

[Rei_Toei]

Rereading a Feast for Crows, 21% in. Something that now strikes me as odd/sorta annoys me, is Sansa's ambivalent, confused stance towards Littlefinger. If she had put a little more thought in it, she'd make sure to somehow force some meeting with Royce after her aunt's death, try and convince him of her true identity. Royce and the other houses seemed totally ready to go ballsdeep for the Starks (close to revolt against Lysa before Littlefinger even arrived, if I remember correctly), unhappy with both Lysa and even more pissed of when Littlefinger comes out of leftfield. And I might be mistaken but I'm under the assumption Sansa knew this at this point. No use dwelling on what could've happened, but I still hope she backstabs Petyr at some point in the future (maybe Martin wants more timing setting up a 'pupil outdoes the master' scenario or something) so the Vale can finally start kick ass and take names.

[Steelyuhas]

Thought this was funny:

[CygnusXS]

Thought this was funny:

Someone posted this in the NO SPOILERS thread, and I cringed inside. I swear, too many of the non-readers are going to see the RW coming a mile away at this rate.

[KingGondo]

Someone posted this in the NO SPOILERS thread, and I cringed inside. I swear, too many of the non-readers are going to see the RW coming a mile away at this rate.

I honestly doubt it.

That's what makes the Red Wedding so damn shocking--in one fell swoop, GRRM snuffs out several of the "good guys," the primary rooting interest in the war, and the main members left of the Stark family. It's unspeakably brutal and unfair.

I didn't see it coming at all on the first read-through, and I got a genuine sense of dread on the second read-through when I picked up on the hints GRRM was dropping. It's STILL shocking even if you know what's gonna happen, much like Ned's death.

[Maffis]

RW was intense, and utterly shocking. I swear I had to put down the book for a couple of days just to recover (ok I lied I didn't, just too good). But the fact that no such events like the RW and beheading of Ned Stark happens again is kind of... I don't know... sad? I know that I would rage hard to see a major character go again, but the sudden deaths of people I love is what makes the books so amazing to me.

I guess Jon's "death" is pretty surprising, but I knew from the prologue that he will not die "really" so the shock is not there.

As quoted, Quentyn was a pretty lame character :P

[Emerson]

RW was intense, and utterly shocking. I swear I had to put down the book for a couple of days just to recover (ok I lied I didn't, just too good). But the fact that no such events like the RW and beheading of Ned Stark happens again is kind of... I don't know... sad? I know that I would rage hard to see a major character go again, but the sudden deaths of people I love is what makes the books so amazing to me. I guess Jon's "death" is pretty surprising, but I knew from the prologue that he will not die so the shock is not there.

I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM still had a major shock or two in him. I'm pretty sure he's always had a basic idea of the broad story strokes. While the whole 5 year gap/AFFC&ADWD thing got out of control, for the last couple books I would imagine he at least knows what he wants to happen from here out.

[CygnusXS]

I know that I would rage hard to see a major character go again, but the sudden deaths...

Quentyn Martell, baby!

...of people I love

oh

[LegendofJoe]

I'm pretty sure something terrible is going to happen to either Arya or Dany before the end of the series, both of them won't survive. It's going to be brutal reading it.

[CygnusXS]

On a different note, I really hope Rickon is somehow the real Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promised.

[Sielys]

So, how does Gaf feel about the "Jon as royalty theory"?

I've seen this being discussed a lot lately, the basic gist is this:

Jon Snow is not a bastard, nor Ned's son. Jon Snow is in fact the child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, who was conceived during the time Lyanna was kidnapped. Ned has been raising Jon as his own son, keeping him protected. This might explain Lyanna's last words to Ned, "Promise me".

I can certainly see it being a possibility, but I'm not sure.

Edit: Sorry if this has already been discussed, first time I've heard of it.

[Altazor]

So, how does Gaf feel about the "Jon as royalty theory"? I've seen this being discussed a lot lately, the basic gist is this: Jon Snow is not a bastard, nor Ned's son. Jon Snow is in fact the child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, who was conceived during the time Lyanna was kidnapped. Ned has been raising Jon as his own son, keeping him protected. This might explain Lyanna's last words to Ned, "Promise me". I can certainly see it being a possibility, but I'm not sure. Edit: Sorry if this has already been discussed, first time I've heard of it.

this

[Jibbajabbawockky]

Brienne sees a gravedigger that would match Sandor's description. The person that Brienne meets says that The Hound is dead likely meaning that part of Sandor is dead.

Well, no shit.

I must have either totally forgotten that or missed that completely when reading AFfC.

I'm pretty sure something terrible is going to happen to either Arya or Dany before the end of the series, both of them won't survive. It's going to be brutal reading it.

Oh I pray so much that something terrible happen to Dany. If GRRM actually killed her off though I would be very surprised. She seemingly has the thickest plot armor of any character in the series. Maybe she'll die at the every end in some kind of bittersweet ending, but a Dornish Red Wedding scenario for Dany would be fantastic.

[tokkun]

Rereading a Feast for Crows, 21% in. Something that now strikes me as odd/sorta annoys me, is Sansa's ambivalent, confused stance towards Littlefinger. If she had put a little more thought in it, she'd make sure to somehow force some meeting with Royce after her aunt's death, try and convince him of her true identity. Royce and the other houses seemed totally ready to go ballsdeep for the Starks (close to revolt against Lysa before Littlefinger even arrived, if I remember correctly), unhappy with both Lysa and even more pissed of when Littlefinger comes out of leftfield. And I might be mistaken but I'm under the assumption Sansa knew this at this point. No use dwelling on what could've happened, but I still hope she backstabs Petyr at some point in the future (maybe Martin wants more timing setting up a 'pupil outdoes the master' scenario or something) so the Vale can finally start kick ass and take names.

The last time she tried getting the help of another great house she ended up married to Tyrion. Not surprising that she would not want to put herself out there again.

[LuchaShaq]

I'm pretty sure something terrible is going to happen to either Arya or Dany before the end of the series, both of them won't survive. It's going to be brutal reading it.

Honestly after the way Dany acted in the last two books specifically how she treated Quentyn and the idea of a Dornish alliance in general I'm rooting for a death as bad/worse than Red Wedding.

Jorah or someone from Dorne killing her would be great.

The only thing about her dying that would bum me out would be the fact that Tyrion would most likely die/get super fucked in this situation unless he caught back up with Aegon.

Rereading a Feast for Crows, 21% in. Something that now strikes me as odd/sorta annoys me, is Sansa's ambivalent, confused stance towards Littlefinger. If she had put a little more thought in it, she'd make sure to somehow force some meeting with Royce after her aunt's death, try and convince him of her true identity. Royce and the other houses seemed totally ready to go ballsdeep for the Starks (close to revolt against Lysa before Littlefinger even arrived, if I remember correctly), unhappy with both Lysa and even more pissed of when Littlefinger comes out of leftfield. And I might be mistaken but I'm under the assumption Sansa knew this at this point. No use dwelling on what could've happened, but I still hope she backstabs Petyr at some point in the future (maybe Martin wants more timing setting up a 'pupil outdoes the master' scenario or something) so the Vale can finally start kick ass and take names.

What would/could Royce do? Kill LF and then plot to marry her to Robert as well? It's not as if the North isn't in fucking shambles in terms of # of dead soldiers.

My bigger problem was her being such a dick to Tyrion. He was the only person in all of King's landing who ever seemed to care what happened to her (Tyrells a teeny tiny bit but only in the context of keeping her claim to the north away from the Lannisters). If it wasn't for Tyrion Joffrey probably would have commanded some lannister men to rape her and then beat her within an inch of her life.