That's ok we all have crazy dreams that will never come true.
I really hope he finishes late this year or early next year 
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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That's ok we all have crazy dreams that will never come true.
Version 3.0
Member
Damp Hair read as Damn Fair? People are crazy. Reminds me of the Big Goron sword debacle in the mind-blowing facts thread.
Depending on price and your interest in illustrations you might be better off buying Dreamsongs 1 which has the Ice Dragon as well as several other shorts Martin wrote.
As for the story it's really nice and I enjoyed it a lot. It reads kind of like an H.C Andersen fairy tale mixing serious themes with innocence and fantasy.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
The Ibbenise,the giants and the Brindled Men from Sothoryos all appear to be analogues of extinct hominids.
What I'm confused about, having read World of Ice and Fire is what exactly a Lizard Lion is. I thought it was just a fanciful way of describing a crocodile, like how Skaagosi unicorns are obviously woolly rhinos, but crocodiles appear elsewhere without any poetic names.
Well, like you mentioned with the extinct hominids, the lizard lion is probably some kind of now extinct relative of the crocodile... or hell maybe even a dinosaur.
Syrio mentions some fun sounding animals:
"....such animals as you have never seen, striped horses, great spotted things with necks as long as stilts, hairy mouse-pigs as big as cows, stinging manticores, tigers that carry their cubs in a pouch, terrible walking lizards with scythes for claws."
That last one sounds suspiciously like a velociraptor.
"....such animals as you have never seen":
Striped horses: Zebras
Great spotted things with necks as long as stilts: Giraffes
Hairy mouse-pigs as big as cows: Capybaras?
Stinging manticores: ?
Tigers that carry their cubs in a pouch: Tasmanian tigers
Terrible walking lizards with scythes for claws: Dinosaurs?
Striped horses: Zebras
Great spotted things with necks as long as stilts: Giraffes
Hairy mouse-pigs as big as cows: Capybaras?
Stinging manticores: ?
Tigers that carry their cubs in a pouch: Tasmanian tigers
Terrible walking lizards with scythes for claws: Dinosaurs?
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
The hairy mouse pigs might be diprotodons - extinct wombats the size of rhinos. The lizards with sickle claws are definitely raptors in my mind. Keep in mind that GRRM wrote GoT before we definitely knew they had feathers.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
Interesting... An influx of show watchers who've decided to jump in now that the show is caught up to the books?
Basileus777
Member
It's nothing new, the sales have been skyrocketing since the show launched.
I just burned through the last tv season and now I have a serious SoIaF itch again. Also, totally not touching season six before the next book, I'll just get massively confused. Goodreads reviewers are pretty positive on a Ball of Beasts, so I'm thinking about trying that.
I really hope Winds of Winter will focus more on Westeros then Essos. So many awesome locations that haven't been fleshed out much yet. Or maybe I'm just tired of Meereen. Lys and Asshai, now that could be interesting.
I really hope Winds of Winter will focus more on Westeros then Essos. So many awesome locations that haven't been fleshed out much yet. Or maybe I'm just tired of Meereen. Lys and Asshai, now that could be interesting.
Incandenza
Banned
Dance was the first (and still the only) book I ever preordered. And I did it digitally so on the day of release I woke up, grabbed my kindle and was immediately reading the prologue, which was a pretty sweet experience.
I actually scheduled a vacation to Great Britain to coincide with AFFC's release, because it came out there a few weeks before the US. My wife and I each got copies at a Borders in Swansea, and we shipped a third copy to my brother.
Probably the dorkiest thing I've ever done, but I have to admit, it was cool to tour old Welsh castles during the day and read ASoIaF at night.
Probably the dorkiest thing I've ever done, but I have to admit, it was cool to tour old Welsh castles during the day and read ASoIaF at night.
Dance came out after season 1. I remember because they put stuff from it into season 2 (Tyrion being in charge of the toilets in Casterly Rock)
Dance came out before season 1 was done tho. I think it was May or June of 2011 and the show premiered in April.
I think his point was that even at season 1, the show was nowhere close to how popular it is today.
I've talked to people that would never in a million years read a fantasy book and learn they watch and love the show.
Basileus777
Member
No it didn't. It came out in July several months after season one was off the air.
But yes, the books are much more popular than they were in 2011 thanks to HBO. Most of ASOIAF's sales have come in the past few years. It's going to do crazy numbers.
I remember the hope and optimism that TWOW would have a quicker turn around. It's been over 4 years and we're still hoping that somehow he gets it out in 2016.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
At least with TWoW the gap isn't because of story problems, at least that we know of and more George spending a lot of time over the last four years doing a lot of things other than being at home writing.
Thats what its always been. The mereenese knot was just a big excuse. The fact that its almost taken as long for Winds to come out proves that.
PhoenixDark
Banned
That doesn't make sense. The Meereenese Knot delayed Martin for what, eleven years? He started writing ADWD in 2000, split it in 2005, and then finally released a revised/different ADWD in 2011. It, alongside with the five year gap, forced Martin to rewrite a thousand pages if not more. It's not an excuse, it's a reality.
By every account you can find online, Martin did not start writing TWOW until January 2012. He seems to believe he can finish it next year, which would mean it took a little over four years. Obviously he's been wrong before so his predictions don't mean much, but personally I believe it'll be out next year. He's also on record as saying TWOW has not required nearly as much rewriting as AFFC/ADWD.
As has been pointed out before, Martin changed his schedule this year so that he doesn't have any events in September, October, November, or December; his first 2016 event is in late February. I think his goal is to finish sometime in that window. Personally I don't think he'll finish before S6 starts, which is what he says his plan is.
Basileus777
Member
It's now three books in a row that have taken 5-6 years to write and each one has had its own blend of problems, though we know very little about TWOW's writing process. It's hardly outrageous to suggest that's just how long it takes him to write books now and that there are not one or two particular issues that caused the delays that will one day cease to exist.
TWOW probably only seems like a smoother ride because he's been radio silent on why it's taking so long.
TWOW probably only seems like a smoother ride because he's been radio silent on why it's taking so long.
If A Dream of Spring will also take 5-6 years, I just hope Martin makes it till (at least) his late 70s in good health. Otherwise we pretty fucked somewhere mid 2020s.
You're not disproving my point, just confirming that Martin used it as an excuse. The fact that his writing pace (whether he's actually working or not) has not changed much implies there is more to what takes him so long than just the knot.
I also don't think it's fair to say it slowed him down for 11 years since as far as I was aware it was only a real problem after he ditched the five year gap and got around to the logistics of having multiple plot points converge in Mereen. I'd welcome any evidence on the contrary though since I haven't delved that deeply into it.
I'm not saying the Mereneese knot was not a significant problem he had to take time to solve. But my problem is that I think many people throw that out to take the light off the fact that the slow pace is a deliberate decision by GRRM more than anything else. It's his right to go at whatever pace he wants, but let's be honest about what it is.
To be fair to Martin, his pace isn't just a matter of choice. These books get trickier as they go along because the more threads ("knotted" or otherwise, important or inconsequential) and characters and history he introduces, the more work he has to do to make sure that everything he writes from this point forward aligns with what he's written before -- and with what he'll write even further in the future.
Writing these books is a huge puzzle for him to both create and solve at the same time, particularly when you consider that he started the books as more of a self-proclaimed "gardener" than outliner.
It doesn't surprise me that it would take years to write these. The degree of difficulty is huge. And he knows these books are his legacy. He can't be writing just for audiences now. He wants to leave behind the best series he can for anyone who reads the books long after he's gone. Like any fan, I wish the books came out more quickly. But I'll appreciate what we get, whenever we get it.
The greatest strength of these books to me is that it feels like they are a fictionalized retelling of a real history. That's also part of what makes the wait tough. It feels like it shouldn't be this hard to write a history book, though the truth is that he's created this out of whole cloth.
(I do have a feeling -- based on, well, nothing really -- that he may at least be outlining the final book concurrently with his writing of the current one, to make sure everything fits together how he needs it to by the conclusion. Wouldn't surprise me if the wait for this one is longer than wait for the last one. It also wouldn't surprise me if I'm totally wrong!)
Writing these books is a huge puzzle for him to both create and solve at the same time, particularly when you consider that he started the books as more of a self-proclaimed "gardener" than outliner.
It doesn't surprise me that it would take years to write these. The degree of difficulty is huge. And he knows these books are his legacy. He can't be writing just for audiences now. He wants to leave behind the best series he can for anyone who reads the books long after he's gone. Like any fan, I wish the books came out more quickly. But I'll appreciate what we get, whenever we get it.
The greatest strength of these books to me is that it feels like they are a fictionalized retelling of a real history. That's also part of what makes the wait tough. It feels like it shouldn't be this hard to write a history book, though the truth is that he's created this out of whole cloth.
(I do have a feeling -- based on, well, nothing really -- that he may at least be outlining the final book concurrently with his writing of the current one, to make sure everything fits together how he needs it to by the conclusion. Wouldn't surprise me if the wait for this one is longer than wait for the last one. It also wouldn't surprise me if I'm totally wrong!)
I was bad. I read the first few leaked chapters in the days before launch.
Really hope that doesn't happen again since Jon's death was spoiled by someone on GAF.
how did someone spoil Jon's death if Jon doesn't die?
adamsappel
Member
Once again, readers profess great knowledge of how books are written.
Ah passive aggressive ad hominems, a staple of any good internet discussion.
PhoenixDark
Banned
It's not an excuse, it's an actual problem that delayed the book. That's a fact, which he has discussed before. You can even read his take on the writing process for AFFC/ADWD here:
http://grrm.livejournal.com/217066.html
The amount of rewriting done between both books baffles the mind.
Martin's comments on the 5 year gap can be found here: http://observationdeck.kinja.com/george-r-r-martin-the-complete-unedited-interview-886117845
A brief Knot explanation from Martin:
http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2012/07/
Cornballer
Member
Brief interview with GRRM from Sean T Collins. A few notes:
Purple Cheeto
Member
How can something that will never exist be huge?
It might not be a matter of choice but he has no one to blame but himself for his predicament. He had a trilogy's worth of ideas that he stretched out and now he has no idea where to go or how to get there and he seemingly has little to no desire to solve these issues. I mean I don't blame him, the guy wrote these books as his response to being ousted from Hollywood, now he's adored by people and the fire is gone.
Much love for Martin and his appreciation of Tolkien.I think I read LOTR when I was 9 or 10 and I had the exact same response initially with the Shire epilogue. Also, way too much fantasy writers trying to diss or dismiss Tolkien's work. Happy to see GRRM not being one of them.
Hes implying peoples opinions on this subject arent valid unless theyre writers and know personally what its like to write a book. A personal judgment thst is irrelevant to the argument being made.
Right of course, it cant be an excuse because Grrm said so guys!
"you are representing yourself as an expert but you aren't an expert" is a valid criticism. "that's not an argument that's just somewhat informed speculation" is a valid criticism.
flyover's post has lots of unsubstantiated claims:
But of course his pace is a matter of choice. He chose to embark on this project in the first place. After completing each book, he should have been able to see that he'd left open more and more threads. He's not bound to those threads, he could have made the choice to tie some of those off sooner
If you're not a person who writes books like this, how would you know how difficult it is? That GRR claims it's difficult isn't particularly sound evidence: if he thinks it's difficult that could just as easily be evidence that he's not good at writing. If I'm going to assess whether or not writing this books is particularly difficult, I'm going to have to rely on the opinion of experts who aren't GRR. If flyover isn't an expert and if flyover isn't relaying the opinions of non-GRR experts, then flyover's just speculating.
Is this true? How do we know? Certainly if I was writing these books I'd feel this way. But it isn't clear to me that GRR feels this way. This assertion is projecting or it's speculation.
Which is not to put flyover's post on blast or anything; the post even acknowledges that it's speculation: "(I do have a feeling -- based on, well, nothing really". I generally agree with the intuition behind pretty much everything in there. But it's not logically invalid to dismiss it out of hand.
It's only an ad hominem if the person is actually constructing an argument and someone's trying to redirect the conversation away from the argument. We could answer any of flyover's claims with "or not" and we'd be on the same evidentiary grounds as flyover is. It's not an ad hominem to say "I'm not interested in engaging in speculation".
flyover's post has lots of unsubstantiated claims:
But of course his pace is a matter of choice. He chose to embark on this project in the first place. After completing each book, he should have been able to see that he'd left open more and more threads. He's not bound to those threads, he could have made the choice to tie some of those off sooner
If you're not a person who writes books like this, how would you know how difficult it is? That GRR claims it's difficult isn't particularly sound evidence: if he thinks it's difficult that could just as easily be evidence that he's not good at writing. If I'm going to assess whether or not writing this books is particularly difficult, I'm going to have to rely on the opinion of experts who aren't GRR. If flyover isn't an expert and if flyover isn't relaying the opinions of non-GRR experts, then flyover's just speculating.
Is this true? How do we know? Certainly if I was writing these books I'd feel this way. But it isn't clear to me that GRR feels this way. This assertion is projecting or it's speculation.
Which is not to put flyover's post on blast or anything; the post even acknowledges that it's speculation: "(I do have a feeling -- based on, well, nothing really". I generally agree with the intuition behind pretty much everything in there. But it's not logically invalid to dismiss it out of hand.
It's only an ad hominem if the person is actually constructing an argument and someone's trying to redirect the conversation away from the argument. We could answer any of flyover's claims with "or not" and we'd be on the same evidentiary grounds as flyover is. It's not an ad hominem to say "I'm not interested in engaging in speculation".
That's not the definition of ad hominem though. An ad hominem argument is any argument that attacks the person making the argument rather than the argument itself. This applies to ANY statement that fits the definition, including the claim that one is pretending to be an expert when he's not. Now, because the person I quoted was drive-by posting, he didn't come out and actually make that claim, but the implication was quite clear. Not only is this an ad hominem argument, but it's not even a very good criticism of a person because if we were only able to talk about things we were experts on, we wouldn't be having much discussion at all.
Now you may buy his argument, but that's a leap in logic you're making. You're accepting his idea that since the person making the argument is not reliable, we don't have to take their opinion seriously. This is fine, and we all do it everyday in a ton of different situations. But it's not a logically valid criticism of the argument, and it's still an ad hominem.
And this is what happens in these threads when GRRM gives us nothing to talk about...
Correlation does not imply causation!And this is what happens in these threads when GRRM gives us nothing to talk about...
But in all seriousness, my biggest complaint about much of the "GRRM not writing fast enough" argument is that it overly simplifies the creative effort. I'm not claiming that the delays aren't on GRRM ... they absolutely are. I just think there's more going on and him dedicating more time to it isn't necessarily going to make things go faster.
I'm saying you're applying Laws Of Logical Argumentation to something that wasn't laid out as an argument. adamsappel identified that flyover was engaging in idle speculation and said he wasn't interested in playing that game. That's a fine and reasonable position to take. You do want to play that game. That's also a fine and reasonable position to take! I'm with you there. Playing speculation and projection games is pretty much all this thread has right now, as you've rightly identified. And they're fun! The way to snub off adamsappel is not to claim that he's illogical but to claim that he's a sourpuss.
I constantly go back and forth on how I feel about GRR and these books taking so damn long. I think he's totally over-scoped himself as especially exemplified in the Dorne and Martell plots. He's talked so much about the Meereenese Knot, too, and to some extent I sympathize with him but also I'm frustrated he didn't just Gordian Knot the thing and write a somewhat dissatisfying solution in the interest of moving things along. I always come back to his damn prophecies: dude keeps signing himself up for work and then even if he discovers it's not really up to snuff (the Sun's son...) he has to carry through with it anyway.
I particularly don't truck with "He wants to leave behind the best series he can for anyone who reads the books long after he's gone." It's not clear to me dude has any interest in delivering compelling / satisfying / dramatic literature any more, the latter books feel like he's working through them for himself.
I constantly go back and forth on how I feel about GRR and these books taking so damn long. I think he's totally over-scoped himself as especially exemplified in the Dorne and Martell plots. He's talked so much about the Meereenese Knot, too, and to some extent I sympathize with him but also I'm frustrated he didn't just Gordian Knot the thing and write a somewhat dissatisfying solution in the interest of moving things along. I always come back to his damn prophecies: dude keeps signing himself up for work and then even if he discovers it's not really up to snuff (the Sun's son...) he has to carry through with it anyway.
I particularly don't truck with "He wants to leave behind the best series he can for anyone who reads the books long after he's gone." It's not clear to me dude has any interest in delivering compelling / satisfying / dramatic literature any more, the latter books feel like he's working through them for himself.
Basileus777
Member
All this from some no effort, drive by post that contributed nothing.
I haven't read A Dance With Dragons yet (the only book I haven't read yet), but I'm almost finished season 5... I do plan on re-visiting/starting/finishing book 5 later but I wish we could re-wind time and undo the following changes the show runners made to the series:
1) Lack of focus on the full Kingsguard roster. Because of this we don't have Ser Arys Oakheart in Dorne as Myrcella's sworn shield. Because of this there's no opportunity to explore the Kettleblack plotline (re: a Kettleblack in the Kingsguard and the fact the Kettleblacks are in Littlefinger's pocket). Ditto with Cersei's villainous manipulation of the Kingsguard roster in book 4, such that Margeary, through Cersei's own maneuvering, would be forced to have an incompetent member of the Kingsguard fight in her name in a trial by combat...
2) No Lady Stoneheart.... I finished book 4 and Lady Stoneheart hangs both Brienne and Podrick and Brienne does not come close to finding either Arya or Sansa.
3) No Arianne Martell. It could be crude to say but I really wanted to see Arianne in her sex scenes. And there was a missed opportunity to show how proficient/savage of a fighter Hotah is... and I don't know if I'm being unreasonable but I always thought it would be cool to have all 7 Sand Snakes in the show (instead of just three), and to make a big deal about how all bastard daughters of Oberyn and how they are all 7 of them hot-headed and thirsty for revenge...
4) What is up with the lack of tolerance of gays in the universe these show runners have created? Is it just me or is that a complete misunderstanding of the climate in the Song Of Ice And Fire series? Would it be correct to say that it is completely unthinkable for anyone in the Song Of Ice And Fire series to actually give a shit that Ser Loras is gay? I think characters would in subtle fashion snicker at him or make fun of him, but to arrest him just for being gay? That annoyed me. I don't get the impression that anyone is intolerant of gays while reading the book. I loved the way they portrayed Loras in book 4 - he's a man that is widely known to be gay, and he always jumps at the opportunity to prove he's valiant, because he's self-conscious of his own sexuality and doesn't want anyone to question his valour. So Cersei uses that to her advantage, and to her great joy and surprise, that causes Loras to volunteer to be one of the first men over the walls in an attack against Dragonstone, and then Loras becomes gravely injured. I don't like how they threw away that plotline just to have him arrested in book 5.
5) Tommen being almost a teenager in the show... such a shame in my opinion. In the books I imagine Tommen as being a plump, cute, curly-haired, innocent 10-year-old. Someone who signs royal decrees in childish scrawl... someone who prefers to play with his cats than rule the seven kingdoms. In the show he's old enough to have sex with Margeary.
1) Lack of focus on the full Kingsguard roster. Because of this we don't have Ser Arys Oakheart in Dorne as Myrcella's sworn shield. Because of this there's no opportunity to explore the Kettleblack plotline (re: a Kettleblack in the Kingsguard and the fact the Kettleblacks are in Littlefinger's pocket). Ditto with Cersei's villainous manipulation of the Kingsguard roster in book 4, such that Margeary, through Cersei's own maneuvering, would be forced to have an incompetent member of the Kingsguard fight in her name in a trial by combat...
2) No Lady Stoneheart.... I finished book 4 and Lady Stoneheart hangs both Brienne and Podrick and Brienne does not come close to finding either Arya or Sansa.
3) No Arianne Martell. It could be crude to say but I really wanted to see Arianne in her sex scenes. And there was a missed opportunity to show how proficient/savage of a fighter Hotah is... and I don't know if I'm being unreasonable but I always thought it would be cool to have all 7 Sand Snakes in the show (instead of just three), and to make a big deal about how all bastard daughters of Oberyn and how they are all 7 of them hot-headed and thirsty for revenge...
4) What is up with the lack of tolerance of gays in the universe these show runners have created? Is it just me or is that a complete misunderstanding of the climate in the Song Of Ice And Fire series? Would it be correct to say that it is completely unthinkable for anyone in the Song Of Ice And Fire series to actually give a shit that Ser Loras is gay? I think characters would in subtle fashion snicker at him or make fun of him, but to arrest him just for being gay? That annoyed me. I don't get the impression that anyone is intolerant of gays while reading the book. I loved the way they portrayed Loras in book 4 - he's a man that is widely known to be gay, and he always jumps at the opportunity to prove he's valiant, because he's self-conscious of his own sexuality and doesn't want anyone to question his valour. So Cersei uses that to her advantage, and to her great joy and surprise, that causes Loras to volunteer to be one of the first men over the walls in an attack against Dragonstone, and then Loras becomes gravely injured. I don't like how they threw away that plotline just to have him arrested in book 5.
5) Tommen being almost a teenager in the show... such a shame in my opinion. In the books I imagine Tommen as being a plump, cute, curly-haired, innocent 10-year-old. Someone who signs royal decrees in childish scrawl... someone who prefers to play with his cats than rule the seven kingdoms. In the show he's old enough to have sex with Margeary.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
So has this been posted?
(Apparently the image has been confirmed as legit by Elio, though he did sort of downplay it a bit)
People on GAF have poo-pooed my obsession with Braavosi lemon trees before.
I always thought people obsessing over "no lemon trees in Braavos" were just nuts, but there it is.
Basileus777
Member
Preston Jacobs was right all along!
ahahaha
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