[Puddles]

If GRRM had cut out half of the dwarf jousting and 3/4ths of the Daario lusting, that would have freed up a few hundred pages to finish the events in Mereen.

[yacobod]

Dany will end up killing Khal Jhaqo in the first chapter of TWOW and taking over his khalasar. She will return to Mereen with 20,000 Dothraki to lay waste. Maybe then hook up with Euron/Victarion and get on over to Westeros.

[Basileus777]

Dany will end up killing Khal Jhaqo in the first chapter of TWOW and taking over his khalasar. She will return to Mereen with 20,000 Dothraki to lay waste. Maybe then hook up with Euron/Victarion and get on over to Westeros.

GRRM has said that Maggo, the dude who got his throat ripped out by Drogo in the TV show, will be a recurring character in Winds, so I'm sure we'll get plenty of Dothraki stuff.

[sharbhund]

Yeah, Dany vowed revenge on Mago in Book 1, so I'm guessing her storyline in The Winds of Winter will revolve around her reuniting the khalasars before returning to Mereen and kicking ass. I'm starting to doubt that she's even going to make it over to Westeros before the 2nd half of A Dream of Spring. She'll probably also invade Volantis at some point.

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Dany. I hate you and your storyline. You're bringing Tyrion down with you :(

But yeah, more Dothraki ahead for us. Double :(

But everything else should be awesome, yay WINTER!

[ZephyrFate]

The reveal of Drogon at the end of Dany's storyline saved her whole plot in the book for me. Though I enjoyed her struggle as being both a person who can burn whole cities to the ground vs. being a not-tyrannical ruler.

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

So what are the odds that Bran wargs into Hodor and gives Meera the giant dick?

[Basileus777]

So what are the odds that Bran wargs into Hodor and gives Meera the giant dick?

I don't think Meera would be into that. Bran's going to get his heart broken.

I thought it was interesting how Varamyr in the prologue talked about how warging into other humans and eating human flesh while warged were some kind of abominations...and Bran is doing both.

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

I don't think Meera would be into that. Bran's going to get his heart broken. I thought it was interesting how Varamyr in the prologue talked about how warging into other humans and eating human flesh while warged were some kind of abominations...and Bran is doing both.

Yeah, I thought of that too. Arya is also eating people when she's the Night Wolf. Wonder what, if anything, will come of it.

There are a lot of little things I missed. Wish I had read the book a bit slower (except the Essos parts, no shame there). I figured out who Aegon was really quick and that the bard at Winterfell was Manse. I didn't quite call it but I know there was something weird about Rattleshirt when he mentioned tasting the Dornishmen's wife. In hindsight that should have been obvious.

I missed Manderly serving Frey's for dinner (really loving that guy, I liked him since ACOK, but now he's awesome). The significance of some of Mel's visions and the whole Jon/Azor Ahai bit when Jon "dies"

[ZephyrFate]

I don't think Meera would be into that. Bran's going to get his heart broken. I thought it was interesting how Varamyr in the prologue talked about how warging into other humans and eating human flesh while warged were some kind of abominations...and Bran is doing both.

The chapters where he's with the children of the forest were so incredibly bizarre. For how magical it all was, I was enthralled.

[bengraven]

Back from my ban, posted my final review in the OT.

I don't know, I need to read it again, but I'm not sure if it was better than Storm anymore. First half, YES, second half, FEAST.

The chapters where he's with the children of the forest were so incredibly bizarre. For how magical it all was, I was enthralled.

Yeah, that killed my theory that the children ARE the others.

That said, I think there's something between them we're missing.

[ZephyrFate]

Back from my ban, posted my final review in the OT. I don't know, I need to read it again, but I'm not sure if it was better than Storm anymore. First half, YES, second half, FEAST. Yeah, that killed my theory that the children ARE the others. That said, I think there's something between them we're missing.

You act as if FEAST is a bad thing.

(and thus start an epic argument over the merit of A Feast for Crows)

[bengraven]

You act as if FEAST is a bad thing. (and thus start an epic argument over the merit of A Feast for Crows)

I said earlier, I actually liked Feast in my re-read.

I think it's Storm>Game>Dance>Clash/Feast>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>every other fantasy novel I've read in the last 5 years.

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Back from my ban, posted my final review in the OT. I don't know, I need to read it again, but I'm not sure if it was better than Storm anymore. First half, YES, second half, FEAST.

I've changed my opinion on the book a lot. Late last night when I finished reading it I was sure that it was easily the worst in the series. Today after thinking about it for awhile and reading other people's thoughts, I'd definitely put it above Feast. Maybe a Clash of Kings too. The stuff that takes place in the North is just too good. The Essos storylines are what drag it down for me. I just couldn't get into them. I had hopes for Tyrion's storyline but it just never did it for me. Still, I'm a lot more looking forward to the next book than I was last night.

[bengraven]

I've changed my opinion on the book a lot. Late last night when I finished reading it I was sure that it was easily the worst in the series. Today after thinking about it for awhile and reading other people's thoughts, I'd definitely put it above Feast. Maybe a Clash of Kings too. The stuff that takes place in the North is just too good. The Essos storylines are what drag it down for me. I just couldn't get into them. I had hopes for Tyrion's storyline but it just never did it for me. Still, I'm a lot more looking forward to the next book than I was last night.

Honestly, the gist I'm getting and the thing I felt myself, was that after 11 years, we just wanted to get to the next chapter so badly that we got bored. I have a feeling we're all going to go slower next read and enjoy it a LOT more. I think I was so interested in what was going to happen NEXT that I was less interested in what was happening now.

That said, less Essos and more Westeros would have been nice. I am really sick of Essos...I know he wants to take us away from his Anglo-stereo-typical medieval kingdom to try and do some world building in an exotic place, but frankly that just boils down to Arabic-stereotypical kingdoms. I finally realized he was doing his take on the crusades (Western knights fighting in eastern lands) but frankly I would have wanted less Eastern politics. I don't care that we see another city-state and have to read 3 pages of backstory on that city and it's political system. STFU.


Also, lol @ all the crying for the last 6 years that Arya was blind...and it only lasted a chapter.

[ZephyrFate]

I have a feeling a lot of these initial reactions will simmer or change after re-reads (just like with Feast).

I still dunno if I'd put this book over Feast. Feast had such brilliant writing.

[bengraven]

I have a feeling a lot of these initial reactions will simmer or change after re-reads (just like with Feast). I still dunno if I'd put this book over Feast. Feast had such brilliant writing.

I love Feast. Actually on my re-read and thinking it over I think Clash and Feast are tied in my opinion. Sure Tyrion in KL and Jon ranging were the highlights of Clash but Brienne's quest and Dorne and the Iron Islands grew on me after the second reading.

[Basileus777]

That said, I think there's something between them we're missing.

There has to be something up with the Children, I doubt they are just midget elves. Maybe the Children created the Others.

[bengraven]

There has to be something up with the Children, I doubt they are just midget elves. Maybe the Children created the Others.

Yeah, that's possible. A kind of Cylon thing.

Damn being away for three days.

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Also, lol @ all the crying for the last 6 years that Arya was blind...and it only lasted a chapter.

That may have been my favorite part of the book. When AFFC came out so many people were pissed "Oh my God Arya's blind!!! Fuck you George to punish her that way!!" I always figured it was standard part of the training or if not she'd do some Zatoichi shit and it would still be awesome. But then it's all over in one chapter. So awesome. I loved her chapters.

[elrechazado]

I was always and still am baffled that anyone didn't realize that the blindness was part of her training. The first day she gets there there are blind acolytes in there. It was really obviously a part of the progression of the training....

[Basileus777]

Yeah, the AFFC cliffhangers were pretty obviously fake. Davos and Brienne weren't going to die, and Arya wasn't blind.

Though I've seen people that think Jon Snow is really dead, so there are always people who fall for them.

[ZephyrFate]

The only actual negative thing I can levy against ADWD is the repetitive phrases. How in the world did everyone, in both Westeros and Essos, learn the phrase "Words are wind"?

EVERY character uses it. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

[elrechazado]

The only actual negative thing I can levy against ADWD is the repetitive phrases. How in the world did everyone, in both Westeros and Essos, learn the phrase "Words are wind"? EVERY character uses it. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

Where do whores go?

[Basileus777]

Was the whole hour of the X thing used before? I think Cersei might have used it in AFFC, but it was really popular in this book.

[ZephyrFate]

Where do whores go?

Now see the individual phrases are fine. I liked "Where do whores go?", "I am just a young girl and not...", "You know nothing", and "Reek, reek, it rhymes with ____"

but the fact that everyone ubiquitously knows that words are wind and knows no other way to express such a fact smacks of a bit of laziness on GRRM's part.

[elrechazado]

There was individual phrase repetition before, like jaime constantly doing "fucking lancel and osmund kettleblack, and moon boy", but not half as much as tyrion asking where whores go 16 times per chapter. I thought GRRM overused the whole catchphrase in this book in a way he didn't in the others. Less is more george.

[shintoki]

If I had to rank em right now.

Storm > Clash > Game > Feast > Dance.

For what's its worth, I basically think Clash, Game, and Feast are all tied with Storm the only one that splits ahead. Dance is the only one I've had a negative reaction to after reading.

[Basileus777]

Now see the individual phrases are fine. I liked "Where do whores go?", "I am just a young girl and not...", "You know nothing", and "Reek, reek, it rhymes with ____" but the fact that everyone ubiquitously knows that words are wind and knows no other way to express such a fact smacks of a bit of laziness on GRRM's part.

I get the feeling that this book was rushed out a bit in terms of the editing. The whole process from completion to publication was so quick that you wonder if they would have caught some of these things if they had extra time.

[ZephyrFate]

I get the feeling that this book was rushed out a bit in terms of the editing. The whole process from completion to publication was so quick that you wonder if they would have caught some of these things if they had extra time.

This is probably true. It only soured my appreciation of the book a tad, and it's more of a nitpick than a real problem, but man...

I guess I can also see it as a plot device, though. Each of the characters who do repeat these phrases are either faced with constant conflict (Jon, Dany), or are going insane (Tyrion, Theon).

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Was the whole hour of the X thing used before? I think Cersei might have used it in AFFC, but it was really popular in this book.

Yeah, it was rarely if ever used in the previous books but was all over the place here. Cryvasse also was first mentioned in the last book in the Dorne, but it seems like everyone plays it in ADWD.

[Patriots7]

Anybody get into reading the books after watching the TV show? I'm debating doing it, but I've pretty much wikipedia'd all of the books and have found out the major twists, so I feel like a lot of the magic would be lost. That and nearly all of my favorite characters have unfortunate endings which would anger me to read.

[elrechazado]

Anybody get into reading the books after watching the TV show? I'm debating doing it, but I've pretty much wikipedia'd all of the books and have found out the major twists, so I feel like a lot of the magic would be lost. That and nearly all of my favorite characters have unfortunate endings which would anger me to read.

Uhh, pretty much everyone in this thread would be in favor of reading the books. If you think reading wikis and knowing the plot gives you the same experience as reading the series, then you are probably in a bad thread.

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Been re-reading the books before I plow into Dragons.

All I have to say is, Catelyn is the biggest fool in the entire series. Dumber than Patchface.

[elrechazado]

Been re-reading the books before I plow into Dragons. All I have to say is, Catelyn is the biggest fool in the entire series. Dumber than Patchface.

Patchface knows all. I'd say cersei and catelyn are dumb, but cersei is the dumbest of all.

[darkwing]

where is Rickon? or did he die somewhere

[elrechazado]

where is Rickon? or did he die somewhere

Rickon is with osha the wildling woman. It's implied that they are hiding on the isle of skagos.

[Hasphat'sAnts]

Patchface knows all. I'd say cersei and catelyn are dumb, but cersei is the dumbest of all.

Whatever did Cersei do that was dumber than releasing Jaime Lannister?

Note: Still haven't gotten around to AFfC. Read it two years ago, can't remember shit except that Asha and the Dornish girl were annoying as hell.

[elrechazado]

Whatever did Cersei do that was dumber than releasing Jaime Lannister? Note: Still haven't gotten around to AFfC. Read it two years ago, can't remember shit except that Asha and the Dornish girl were annoying as hell.

What did cersei do? Everything in affc for a start, but all of the stupid shit she does herself, and add in the failures to reign in joffrey, and I'd say she does 10 "release jaime lannister" level things. She's so bad that varys kills kevan lannister just to put her back in power so that the kingdom will fall under her terrible leadership, and littlefinger's plans to let cersei destroy herself happened in a matter of months rather than the years he was planning on.... that bitch is duuuuuuuuuumb.

[Hasphat'sAnts]

What did cersei do? Everything in affc for a start, but all of the stupid shit she does herself, and add in the failures to reign in joffrey, and I'd say she does 10 "release jaime lannister" level things. She's so bad that varys kills kevan lannister just to put her back in power so that the kingdom will fall under her terrible leadership, and littlefinger's plans to let cersei destroy herself happened in a matter of months rather than the years he was planning on.... that bitch is duuuuuuuuuumb.

She hasn't gotten herself killed yet, so she's marginally smarter than Catelyn Stark by technicality.

But bitch be crazy.

[ZephyrFate]

Anybody get into reading the books after watching the TV show? I'm debating doing it, but I've pretty much wikipedia'd all of the books and have found out the major twists, so I feel like a lot of the magic would be lost. That and nearly all of my favorite characters have unfortunate endings which would anger me to read.

That's precisely the reason why we read the books -- to understand why the world of Westeros is so unrelentingly harsh to all who dwell within it.

[Famassu]

Okay, FUCK Martin. Fuck him in all the seven hells.

(*Just read the last Jon chapter and slammed the book shut*)

>_<

[Basileus777]

Okay, FUCK Martin. Fuck him in all the seven hells. (*Just read the last Jon chapter and slammed the book shut*) >_<

Don't worry, Jon will be back. He'll be reborn under a flaming Dallas Cowboys star.

[elrechazado]

On the topic of jon, I'm really disappointed in the ending, but not because of the fake death. I'm pissed that after all jon went through and held back from, all of the temptations to leave the watch, betray his oath, whether it was leaving to support robb, or taking the offering of winterfell from stannis, and he goes and betrays that entire ethos because of a stupid letter from ramsay. The whole "who is gonna join me" was like some shit out of a bad action movie, and exactly wrong for the character and all he'd gone through up to that point.

I was actually on bowen marsh's side at that point. Jon was an oathbreaking commander of the watch, and he deserved the same that he gave to janos.

[Basileus777]

On the topic of jon, I'm really disappointed in the ending, but not because of the fake death. I'm pissed that after all jon went through and held back from, all of the temptations to leave the watch, betray his oath, whether it was leaving to support robb, or taking the offering of winterfell from stannis, and he goes and betrays that entire ethos because of a stupid letter from ramsay. The whole "who is gonna join me" was like some shit out of a bad action movie, and exactly wrong for the character and all he'd gone through up to that point. I was actually on bowen marsh's side at that point. Jon was an oathbreaking commander of the watch, and he deserved the same that he gave to janos.

What bothered me about that chapter was how casual Jon was about essentially deserting the Watch. I know he's doing it to protect the Watch from the Boltons, but this is a guy who has been agonizing about his oaths for 4 books, to just get a letter and say ok I'm leaving was so sudden for such an important character moment. I would expect a ton of introspection and pathos to accompany that decision...instead it just kind of happened.

I can't defend Marsh though. All he did was incite the Wildlings to revolt. He'd have been smarter to let Jon leave and then call him a deserter.

[Famassu]

I'm pretty sure he didn't die, or even if he did get mortal wounds, Melisandre will probably do something to him to save him (not without a cost, I reckon). And then his Valyrian steel will start glowing AND be warm to the touch and he'll be reckoned the Azor Ahai reborn, now that Stannis is dead(?). Or was Ramsay Snow just lying about that part? I guess it would be weird to reunite Theon & Asha and then just kill them all "off-screen"... Though, wouldn't Ramsay have had "Arya" back then?

Gah, so many questions that will not be answered until in 2014, at best.

[shintoki]

Ramsey is lying. Mance is caught and the girls are most likely dead, but Stannis isn't defeated. He was asking for Theon and Jen back still, who went to Stannis camp. And I highly doubt they could survive on their own.

[ZephyrFate]

Okay, FUCK Martin. Fuck him in all the seven hells. (*Just read the last Jon chapter and slammed the book shut*) >_<

This is a sign of a fantastic author. :)

[elrechazado]

I'm pretty sure he didn't die, or even if he did get mortal wounds, Melisandre will probably do something to him to save him (not without a cost, I reckon). And then his Valyrian steel will start glowing AND be warm to the touch and he'll be reckoned the Azor Ahai reborn, now that Stannis is dead(?). Or was Ramsay Snow just lying about that part? I guess it would be weird to reunite Theon & Asha and then just kill them all "off-screen"... Though, wouldn't Ramsay have had "Arya" back then? Gah, so many questions that will not be answered until in 2014, at best.

If stannis were really dead with his army, they'd have theon and fake arya too imo. Letter is part bullshit part true, and jon's reaction to it is all stupid.

also 2014 lawl

[Ichor]

I really hope it won't be another 6 years before Winds is released. I don't want to be in my mid 30s by the time I read the ending of this series.

Just fuck, if I have to wait 6 years to find out what happens with Jon Snow I might... I dunno, do something stupid.

I don't even know if I'll be able to bring myself to watch the new seasons of tv series.

Does anyone have some good long fantasy/sci-fi series to read to tide me over? I'd tell you which I've read already, but... I've read so many that I get them mixed up and can't remember names.