[Jarmel]

That's what i liked about it though. When the battle seemed done, everything just took a horrible turn. "I put my life into the viper's hands, and he dropped it" Sad that we had to lose Oberyn though, i quite liked that character for the brief period in which we came to know him.

He was too bad-ass. That's why he had to die.

[LaserBuddha]

Wait I thought Littlefinger was responsible for Joffrey? One of my favorite scenes in the series. I can't wait to see the fucker on the ground chocking to death.

The Queen of Thornes or someone put poison in Sansa's hair thing, then the Queen of Thornes came over and "adjusted" her hair thing, and somehow got the poison into Joffrey's cup.

[Jarmel]

The Queen of Thornes or someone put poison in Sansa's hair thing, then the Queen of Thornes came over and "adjusted" her hair thing, and somehow got the poison into Joffrey's cup.

Sigh, I'll re-read this later between DwD and WoW. I'll have plenty of time.

[Pikelet]

The Queen of Thornes or someone put poison in Sansa's hair thing, then the Queen of Thornes came over and "adjusted" her hair thing, and somehow got the poison into Joffrey's cup.

Littlefinger did take some credit for it though. The framing of Tyrion was all his doing, and the hairnet did come from Dontos, a man clearly in Littlefinger's pocket.

[thy_]

Also would like to see some discussion of the isle of faces....it seems clear there are children of the forest there. Yet nobody talks about them, the maesters all say there are no children anymore, yet at other times everyone seems to accept that there are children on the island. It's not like they're in some super inaccessible place, like beyond the wall or something, so why have they been ignored this long by westeros in general? What gives? Someone's got to go hit up the isle of faces at some point in this story, right?

There are supposed to be Green Man on the isle, not necessarily Children of the Forest. The Green Man are a human order that was founded to protect the Isle of Faces after the singing of the pact between the Children and the First Men.

The Green Man could possibly have abilities or knowledge, that they learned from the Greenseers, but GRRM hasn't said anything about that so far.

If magic is indeed getting stronger in the world, and the order has at on time received training by the Greenseers, then they could possibly play a big role in the fight against the Others.

[BeeDog]

Still reading AFfC slowly, and just passed the FAT PINK MAST chapter. Good god, GRRM seriously must get off writing the sex scenes.

[Sotha Sil]

Subscribed with the fury of a three-headed dragon.

[yacobod]

the craggomen could be descendants of the children of the forest. howland reed and his kids could be children of the forest for a nice twist heading north to the wall with bran.

[bengraven]

the craggomen could be descendants of the children of the forest. howland reed and his kids could be children of the forest for a nice twist heading north to the wall with bran.

Some theories are that Jojen IS Howland Reed and/or that Jojen is really a Children of the Forest and hundreds of years old. Both would explain why he seems so wise beyond his years.

[Sir Garbageman]

That's what i liked about it though. When the battle seemed done, everything just took a horrible turn. "I put my life into the viper's hands, and he dropped it" Sad that we had to lose Oberyn though, i quite liked that character for the brief period in which we came to know him.

My favorite fight scene too. So fucking intense.

"I am Oberyn Martell, a prince of Dorne," he said, as the Mountain turned keeping him in sight. "Princess Elia was my sister." "Who?" asked Gregor Clegane. Oberyn's long spear jabbed, but Ser Gregor took the point on his shield, shoved it aside, and bulled back at the prince, his great sword flashing. The Dornishman spun away untouched. The spear darted foward. Clegane slashed at it, Martell snapped it back, then thrusted again. Metal screamed on metal as the spearhead slid off the Mountain's chest, slicing through the surcoat and leaving a long bright scratch on the steel beneath. "Elia Martell, Princess of Dorne," The Red Viper hissed. "You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children." Ser Gregor grunted. He made a ponderous charge to hack at the Dornishman's head. Prince Oberyn avoided him easily. "Elia Martell, Princess of Dorne," The Red Viper hissed. "You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children." "Did you come to talk or fight?" "I came to hear you confess."

And Tyrion laughing hysterically at the end when he loses. Something along the lines of, "I put my life in the hands of the Viper, but Viper's don't have hands..."

[Puddles]

I'm interested to see where Rickon's story will take us. I got a feeling he could end up being a villain. From the beginning he was kind of a wild child, then he lost both of his parents and is now travelling the country with a wildling woman from north of the wall. I don't see how he could not turn into someone who is all kinds of fucked up.

Lol, Rickon won't have a story.

[The Albatross]

The Hound isn't actually dead, right? Right? I hope not =(

Well... that's dicey. Sandor Clegane is probably alive. But, as is stated a few times in AFFC, the Hound is dead.

[yacobod]

Well... that's dicey. Sandor Clegane is probably alive. But, as is stated a few times in AFFC, the Hound is dead.

pretty sure the Hound is the large guy at the monastery

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

pretty sure the Hound is the large guy at the monastery

Yeah, Martin through us some bones (ha) there, such as the dog going over to the digger and the digger petting him.

But yeah, the Hound is dead. Now Sandor will become Good Doggy and hunt down his evil undead brother.

[Manics]

It feels so fresh and clear in this thread! Ned has no head, Robb is dead and Catelyn is sort of a zombie. Ahh, the no spoiler.

[bengraven]

Y'know, I'm the last person to condone sexual assualt, really, based on my past and the past of my friends and loved ones who suffered through those kind of assaults in the last few years.

But I really hope Cersei gets raped and beaten and left in a gutter.

[thy_]

Some theories are that Jojen IS Howland Reed and/or that Jojen is really a Children of the Forest and hundreds of years old. Both would explain why he seems so wise beyond his years.

Meera's frog spear isn't made out of dragonglass,or is it?
The Children would have picked up metalworking in expense of the Other-killing dragon glass at some point in time and their culture would have to be at least heavily influenced by "human"-civilization.

I think it is more likely that Crannogmen/Reeds are descendants of the First Men who retained more of the Children of the Forest culture (and possibly their blood if cross-breeding is possible), than the rest of Westeros.

But I don't think that Jojen is a straight up Child who has lived for hundreds of years and fought alongside Ned in Robert's rebellion.

[Emerson]

Here's a question. Was I the only one who knew Robb and Grey Wind would end up dead? I can't remember where but somebody has a prophecy dream that involves the two of them walking in somewhere covered in a thousand cuts or something similar. As soon as I read that I knew they'd die, but not how obviously.

[The Albatross]

Here's a question. Was I the only one who knew Robb and Grey Wind would end up dead? I can't remember where but somebody has a prophecy dream that involves the two of them walking in somewhere covered in a thousand cuts or something similar. As soon as I read that I knew they'd die, but not how obviously.

Dany does at the House of Black & White on whatever island/area that is in Essos. She has a vision of a red wedding with a completely bloody wolf & man w/ wolves' head with a cup n his hand.

Though to say I necessarily saw it coming ... I really didn't. GRRM is a master of mixing his styles, which really separates him from other authors, especially in this sort of narrative. I enjoyed The Pillars of the Earth but by the final 300 pages I was bored to death by it, and had to stop reading the sequel, because the author's writing style was so predictable. In Pillars (and a lot of other fiction narratives), basically, if the character is happy, cheerful, and thinks good things will happen, THE WORST happens... And vise versa, if all is lost, nothing is going right, everything turned out better than expect. It was so formulaic.

GRRM mixes it so well that you can never quite tell what is going to happen, even with prophesy. For instance, Game of Thrones spends most of the first book prophesizing that Dany & Drogo's unborn baby is going to mount the world and conquer Westeros & Essos... BUt... that obviously doesn't happen. Now, some might think, "well, maybe the crone Khaleesi is really talking about Dany's dragons..." but even then, the prediction just doesn't necessarily flow.

Similarly, in the chapter of the Red Wedding, we get it from Catelyn's perspective. And Catelyn is SO filled with absolute dread the whole time... She's completely convinced that Fat Walder Frey is going to sell them out and do them harm, everything she does tries to prevent that, and at every moment she's completely suspicious. It's a reverse psychology on the reader: So many other authors set it up this way with these overbearing suspicions, and "everything turns out better than expected." But, with the Red Wedding, the whole scene is staged with dread, it keeps getting worse and worse, and as a reader you're expecting a twist, but then, nope, total betrayal and murder and it just keeps getting worse and worse.

[Mattdaddy]

LOL this series has like 4 or 5 threads for a variety of reading & watching scenarios. Haha I love it! Behold the power of GRRM!

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Y'know, I'm the last person to condone sexual assualt, really, based on my past and the past of my friends and loved ones who suffered through those kind of assaults in the last few years. But I really hope Cersei gets raped and beaten and left in a gutter.

She will be given to Mord who has relocated to King's Landing to once more fuck a Lannister.

Here's a question. Was I the only one who knew Robb and Grey Wind would end up dead? I can't remember where but somebody has a prophecy dream that involves the two of them walking in somewhere covered in a thousand cuts or something similar. As soon as I read that I knew they'd die, but not how obviously.

I didn't exactly know he was going to die then and there, but I had a feeling because he was the only major Stark not to receive POV chapters. I thought he would last longer though. The Red Wedding Chapter was just brilliantly written.

I did know for sure Ned was going to die early on. He just screamed Duke Leto Atreides to me.

[Emerson]

Maybe you're right, but are you sure there isn't another one? I feel like I remember a dream that specifically mentions Robb and Grey Wind by name walking into a room covered in a thousand cuts.

[Ignatz Mouse]

Here's a question. Was I the only one who knew Robb and Grey Wind would end up dead? I can't remember where but somebody has a prophecy dream that involves the two of them walking in somewhere covered in a thousand cuts or something similar. As soon as I read that I knew they'd die, but not how obviously.

It may have occurred to me, but ever since I predicted the early demise of Sansa I stopped giving my own speculation any weight. I'm usually wrong.

[Sansa was suppose to die first because Lady died, and would be there to protect her/was a forshadowing. So wrong.]

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Maybe you're right, but are you sure there isn't another one? I feel like I remember a dream that specifically mentions Robb and Grey Wind by name walking into a room covered in a thousand cuts.

Don't remember anything like that, but there are a couple other characters that prohpesize the Red Wedding. Patchface does it and so does that weird old lady Arya sees. Maybe you're thinking of one of them, more likely the old lady. Or maybe there's one I've forgotten.

It may have occurred to me, but ever since I predicted the early demise of Sansa I stopped giving my own speculation any weight. I'm usually wrong. [Sansa was suppose to die first because Lady died, and would be there to protect her/was a forshadowing. So wrong.]

I thought the same thing, and that the kids would die in the orders there wolves died. Way off on that one.

[The Albatross]

Still reading AFfC slowly, and just passed the FAT PINK MAST chapter. Good god, GRRM seriously must get off writing the sex scenes.

I realized while reading GoT that GRRM must be into some weird stuff. He was also writing that book, basically, before widespread internet... So that guy must have been renting some odd films. Let's be honest, as great as .. Paris (?) his wife or gf or lover or whoever she is .. may be, he knows a little too much for his looks.

[heliosRAzi]

I realized while reading GoT that GRRM must be into some weird stuff. He was also writing that book, basically, before widespread internet... So that guy must have been renting some odd films. Let's be honest, as great as .. Paris (?) his wife or gf or lover or whoever she is .. may be, he knows a little too much for his looks.

They're the ones who are the freakiest.

[NewLib]

Don't remember anything like that, but there are a couple other characters that prohpesize the Red Wedding. Patchface does it and so does that weird old lady Arya sees. Maybe you're thinking of one of them, more likely the old lady. Or maybe there's one I've forgotten.

When Dany is going through the House of the Undying, she sees an image of a King with a Wolf Head at a Wedding. That is how I knew once Robb was going to be involved in a Wedding in weird circumstances that he was going to die.

[Griffith]

Maybe you're right, but are you sure there isn't another one? I feel like I remember a dream that specifically mentions Robb and Grey Wind by name walking into a room covered in a thousand cuts.

Yeah, that was Theon. He has a dream of the feast when Robert came to Winterfell but soon realizes everyone attending this feast is dead, then the doors burst open and Robb and Grey Wind walk in covered in wounds. It was a really creepy scene.

[Count of Monte Sawed-Off]

Yeah, that was Theon. He has a dream of the feast when Robert came to Winterfell but soon realizes everyone attending this feast is dead, then the doors burst open and Robb and Grey Wind walk in covered in wounds. It was a really creepy scene.

That's it! I completely forgot about that.

[Mattdaddy]

Zombie Caitlin vexes me. I hate her because I didn't like living Cat and she robbed us of The Lightning Lord. BUT, she is killing the shit out of the Freys and I would like some more of that. Hmmmm, not sure where I stand.

[sazabirules]

Zombie Caitlin vexes me. I hate her because I didn't like living Cat and she robbed us of The Lightning Lord. BUT, she is killing the shit out of the Freys and I would like some more of that. Hmmmm, not sure where I stand.

Taking out Freys is nice but I'll be angry if Brienne really did die. I didn't even like her chapters that much but I felt sorry for her. Poor Podrick got caught up in it as well.

[Emerson]

Yeah, that was Theon. He has a dream of the feast when Robert came to Winterfell but soon realizes everyone attending this feast is dead, then the doors burst open and Robb and Grey Wind walk in covered in wounds. It was a really creepy scene.

Thanks, I knew there was something like that.

[Pokielhl]

The Queen of Thornes or someone put poison in Sansa's hair thing, then the Queen of Thornes came over and "adjusted" her hair thing, and somehow got the poison into Joffrey's cup.

Yeah the Olenna took the poison from Sansa's hair, but the actual poisoner had to be Margaery or her brother Garland. The Queen of Thorns is too short.

[Pokielhl]

Zombie Caitlin vexes me. I hate her because I didn't like living Cat and she robbed us of The Lightning Lord. BUT, she is killing the shit out of the Freys and I would like some more of that. Hmmmm, not sure where I stand.

My pet theory is that she becomes so hateful of whats happened to her family that she loses all of the humanity left to her and begins to despise all humans. They she works with the Others to bring destruction, essentially giving them a somewhat human face. That would be a crazy way for her character to turn out.

[heliosRAzi]

Zombie Cat is as dumb as regular Cat.

[FStop7]

The single greatest moment is Strong Belwas defeating Oznak zo Pahl

Strong Belwas anything. STRONG BELWAS IS HUNGRY!

[FStop7]

Here's a question. Was I the only one who knew Robb and Grey Wind would end up dead? I can't remember where but somebody has a prophecy dream that involves the two of them walking in somewhere covered in a thousand cuts or something similar. As soon as I read that I knew they'd die, but not how obviously.

It became obvious to me because he was winning all of his battles. And then his idiot move of marrying the Westerling, and the obviously fake (so obvious even Grey Wind, a fucking wolf, tried to warn Robb about it) allegiance of the Westerlings to Robb. And the final stroke of idiocy was strolling into the Frey camp and seriously believe that being a "guest" meant he'd get any kind of protection when the kingdom was on the line. Chump.

[bengraven]

Re-reading the books, I can say that the dreams should have been more obvious to us.

I mean, they basically talk about Robb's death two or three times throught CoK just in dreams.

[Cornballer]

Nice to see this thread up and running. Lots of interesting discussion in here.


If you're looking for some reading material, there's a series of articles about The War of the Five Kings over on Tower of the Hand:

As A Dance with Dragons approaches, Tower of the Hand will recall and review the central conflict that dominates the first four books: the War of the Five Kings. In this series, Stefan will recap all the game of thrones players and the power moves that led to their rise and others' (and sometimes their own) falls. Special thanks to theDudeabides for helping us out with these articles.

It's a useful recap of where things stand after the first four books in the series.

- Part 1: Overview
- Part 2: The Starks
- Part 3: The Lannisters
- Part 4: The Baratheons
- Part 5: The Tyrells
- Part 6: The Tullys
- Part 7: The Arryns
- Part 8: The Greyjoys
- Part 9: The Martells
- Part 10: Daenerys

[bengraven]

So I'm at the part where Dany banishes Jorah. So where will he turn up next?

1) he never leaves Dany (2:1 odds) - he will show up later on and she may forgive him, even if it's on his deathbed. He will follow her.

2) The Night's Watch (10:1) - he will show up as his father had requested on his deathbed to Sam, though he will likely not know the Old Bear is dead. He may take the black, maybe.

3) pull a Hound (200:1) and just find some quiet part of the world to retire.

4) show up in King's Landing (300:1) Maybe he decides to turn himself in and finds intrigue there. He will seek out the Spider (maybe to get revenge?)

5) Pentos (400:1) - returns to Pentos, though Illyrio isn't there anymore I believe.







Edit: Yes, Cornballer, great links!



Also check out Westeros.org's Citadel's FAQ page. Bullet points 3 through 6 are fascinating and having a lot of information straight from Martin that isn't in the books even.

[Fjordson]

^Ooh, that will definitely be useful. Thanks! Haven't really had time to re-read all four books, so I've been scouring Tower of the Hand and a few other sites trying to recollect all of the major details.

So I'm at the part where Dany banishes Jorah. So where will he turn up next?

He's earned a pardon in Westeros, right? If he doesn't try to reenter into Dany's service maybe he tries to go back home.

I think he'll still be involved in some way with Dany's situation, though. Even though she sent him away, I don't see him as wanting to get revenge on her for some reason. I see him wanting to get back on her good side.

[bengraven]

^Ooh, that will definitely be useful. Thanks! Haven't really had time to re-read all four books, so I've been scouring Tower of the Hand and a few other sites trying to recollect all of the major details. He's earned a pardon in Westeros, right? If he doesn't try to reenter into Dany's service maybe he tries to go back home. I think he'll still be involved in some way with Dany's situation, though. Even though she sent him away, I don't see him as wanting to get revenge on her for some reason. I see him wanting to get back on her good side.

I'm still not sure if he actually earned a pardon in the books: he does in the TV show. I think with everything that's going on and his major accusers (Ned and later Robert) dead, no one will care one way or the other.

That said, he's the heir to Bear Island so it might make some people interested. His aunt is currently the likely heir at the moment, though she's off fighting Iron men and if I remember correctly, she's not too fond of her nephew.

[PhoenixPause]

I think Jorah will either head for the Wall or wind up finding out the Golden Company plot to kidnap/murder/whatever Dany, and attempt to warn her.

[bengraven]

I think Jorah will either head for the Wall or wind up finding out the Golden Company plot to kidnap/murder/whatever Dany, and attempt to warn her.

I could see him try and go covert to protect her from afar. She seems to want to forgive him.

[Fjordson]

I'm still not sure if he actually earned a pardon in the books: he does in the TV show. I think with everything that's going on and his major accusers (Ned and later Robert) dead, no one will care one way or the other. That said, he's the heir to Bear Island so it might make some people interested. His aunt is currently the likely heir at the moment, though she's off fighting Iron men and if I remember correctly, she's not too fond of her nephew.

Ah yeah, you're right. They made it so explicit in the show, but thinking on it I can't really remember anything like that from the books. I like Jorah, so will definitely be interested in seeing where he ends up.

And about the revenge thing, I forgot that Jorah's shown that he's in love with Dany (or at least really into her). The revenge angle could play if he manages to see Dany with another man or something.

[Aegus]

Nice to see this thread up and running. Lots of interesting discussion in here. If you're looking for some reading material, there's a series of articles about The War of the Five Kings over on Tower of the Hand:It's a useful recap of where things stand after the first four books in the series. - Part 1: Overview - Part 2: The Starks - Part 3: The Lannisters - Part 4: The Baratheons - Part 5: The Tyrells - Part 6: The Tullys - Part 7: The Arryns - Part 8: The Greyjoys - Part 9: The Martells - Part 10: Daenerys

I can't wait to see more of the Martells. I mean their story in AFFC wasn't that interesting till the end, but they contain some of my favourite characters. I hope they take the throne with Dany again somehow.

[Mattdaddy]

I could see him try and go covert to protect her from afar. She seems to want to forgive him.

My first thought was that he would mope off and drink himself into an apathetic stupor, but then some white knight moment would present itself and he would pounce on it to get back in Dany's good graces, and possibly be killed in the process.

But then my gut told me that is pretty cliche and GRRM is going to surprise us with something totally different.

[Palmer_v1]

I recently read something that indicated Littlefinger was the one that poisoned Arryn. Was that stated outright in the books at some point?

[luxarific]

And then his idiot move of marrying the Westerling, and the obviously fake (so obvious even Grey Wind, a fucking wolf, tried to warn Robb about it) allegiance of the Westerlings to Robb. And the final stroke of idiocy was strolling into the Frey camp and seriously believe that being a "guest" meant he'd get any kind of protection when the kingdom was on the line. Chump.

Well, you definitely can say he's his father's son. :)

I still felt bad for him after reading the Red Wedding chapter. Really bad way to go.

[ultron87]

I recently read something that indicated Littlefinger was the one that poisoned Arryn. Was that stated outright in the books at some point?

When Lysa is going crazy right before Petyr gives her the boot she says that he convinced her to poison him.

It's in the last Sansa chapter in SoS.