[EatChildren]

That depends in part I suppose on how much credibility you give to the hexcore/dual GPU rumor, or if you are just assuming the PS4/NextBox will be a certain level of tech.

Assumption, among other things.

And there's been no 'downgrading' of my own expectations, given I've long held the belief the Wii U would be of notably less power than the next Xbox and PlayStation. I chose to read between the lines, ignoring the hyperbole and projected opinions of the people sprouting these rumours. It's easy for a developer/publisher/source to say "The Wii U sucks its terrible its underpowered". I don't care if that's how they feel. That isn't the interesting point. The interesting point is that they imply it is underpowered, by comparison. By how much, I do not know, but it's still there.

Point me to the reliable sources, rumours and leaks implying the Wii U isn't underpowered and I'll change my song. Until then there is a very real case to lean towards an underpowered system versus a comparatively powered system. Not necessarily Wii level, but still underpowered. It's not a matter of having irrefutable evidence, or even an abundance of leaks or sources. It's simply, from where I'm standing, the most logical position with the given information.

When we learn more that may change. Until then I don't see any reason to.

[DCKing]

Couldn't Nintendo most easily achieve BC by taking Hollywood, Flipper and the 1T-SRAM, slap it all together onto a single 45 nm chip and call it a day? It would mean 100% BC and no compatibility restricions ftor the rest of the design. They could even use it to run networking stuff or Upad programs and communication.

[BurntPork]

Huh? I really don't see how you come to that conclusion based on what's out there. I've seen nothing that suggests that the next Xbox will be more than more than double as powerful as the WiiU. That not even close to what Wii situation is. It seems that the rumors about the next Xbox came in so much lower than what was expected that people are now retroactively downgrading everything we heard about WiiU to match their own expectations.

Delusion. Everything suggests that it'll be 5-6x more powerful than Wii U. MS is going for a full next gen leap of 10-12x the current gen, and Nintendo's sticking to 1.5-2x, just like they did with Wii and 3DS. The Nintendo that made the SNES, the N64, and the GCN is dead and never coming back. The Microsoft that made the XBox and the XBox 360 isn't going anywhere. The fact that they're using 2 GPUs in the target specs means that the GPU will be more powerful than the GTX 580, which crushes Wii U's RV730.

The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking of not buying it, since I'm no longer the target audience. If E3 doesn't impress me, it's over.

[wsippel]

Sorry, I should've been less verbose and more to-the-point. The gist of the technology is some ultra low-latency dependent texture reads. If WiiU's gpu could somehow achieve this rate of this kind of op (and Wii's TEV could do 8 of those in a single pass; for reference, there are PS2.0b parts unable to do more than that), regardless how (via fat caches, or via duplicating the same ol 1MB 1t-sram pool), TEV is trivially emulatable. In essence, TEV is emulatable view the right amount of very fast memory in the right place of a contemporary GPU ; )

That's still not answering my question. ;)

BC is one aspect. My question is whether to throw the whole TEV architecture out of the window, or improve and combine it with current GPU technology instead?

[bgassassin]

Couldn't Nintendo most easily achieve BC by taking Hollywood, Flipper and the 1T-SRAM, slap it all together onto a single 45 nm chip and call it a day? It would mean 100% BC and no compatibility restricions ftor the rest of the design. They could even use it to run networking stuff or Upad programs and communication.

Unnecessary cost.

[Relix]

Damn this thread is informative. Just subscribing haha

[Gaborn]

Assumption, among other things. And there's been no 'downgrading' of my own expectations, given I've long held the belief the Wii U would be of notably less power than the next Xbox and PlayStation. I chose to read between the lines, ignoring the hyperbole and projected opinions of the people sprouting these rumours. It's easy for a developer/publisher/source to say "The Wii U sucks its terrible its underpowered". I don't care if that's how they feel. That isn't the interesting point. The interesting point is that they imply it is underpowered, by comparison. By how much, I do not know, but it's still there. Point me to the reliable sources, rumours and leaks implying the Wii U isn't underpowered and I'll change my song. Until then there is a very real case to lean towards an underpowered system versus a comparatively powered system. Not necessarily Wii level, but still underpowered. It's not a matter of having irrefutable evidence, or even an abundance of leaks or sources. It's simply, from where I'm standing, the most logical position with the given information. When we learn more that may change. Until then I don't see any reason to.

I guess this is my problem: Under powered compared to WHAT? Before the few days we really had no particular rumors about the PS4 or nextbox's power.

I assumed the Wii U might be under powered - because I expected a year or more gap between the Wii U and it's next competing console, same as most people. If we take the latest rumors about 2012 for the NextBox as more or less true or at least close to me that changes the equation.

I see the consoles as all being launched at a competitive price point, no more than $350. I also think MS and Sony are going to listen to the concerns that were ALL OVER the industry about the development costs not being able to go up as high as they did this generation again, as it was it drove a lot of developers out of business or to the brink and it COMPLETELY destroyed a lot of companies profits.

Even if there IS a gap assuming it will be anywhere NEAR substantial seems like a leap to me. I think a lot of people are going to be bitterly disappointing if they expect the same sort of difference we saw between say, the 360 and the Wii.

[wsippel]

I guess this is my problem: Under powered compared to WHAT? Before the few days we really had no particular rumors about the PS4 or nextbox's power.

And now that we do, it looks like the next Xbox will be twice as powerful as Wii U. That's not even PS2 vs. Xbox, let along Wii vs. PS360. At the first glance, it would put Wii U and Microsoft's next system in the same ballpark.

[EatChildren]

A really simple example of what I'm getting at is what Chopper and lherre have said. I know Chopper well enough to know he is telling the truth. I know that if that is what his source told him, then that is what his source believes. If this is what the source believes, that the Wii U is underpowered in comparison to the other next generation systems, then either they made an error (for unexplainable reasons), or they're accurate. I have no reason to believe in anything other than the latter. This person's personal frustration with the specs? Their business. But the statement itself? It's either underpowered or it isn't. There's no inbetween.

lherre has been implying just as much with his (her?) posts, and I have no reason to doubt their information either. Again, no hyperbolic "THE WII U FUCKEN SUX" nonsense. No projected opinions clouding the raw data. Just the implied relativity of the specs compared to other systems, which also hints towards an underpowered (compartively) system.

Throw in a few snippets of comments people such as Pitchford "Wii U is a 'stop-gap' between this gen and the next", the Battlefield 3 developer's blog comments (yes, I'm aware there were inaccuracies in some of what he said), and the graphical quality of the garden and Zelda tech demoes at E3 2011 (yes, they were pretty, but that isn't the point), and I have no reason what so ever to believe the Wii U is a huge generation gap over the current generation Microsoft/Sony systems.

It's easy to pick apart small aspects of individual statements, or overly focus on projected opinions of the people stating them, but that's missing the point of what is being said, and that is the sources implying that the Wii U is underpowered compared to the next Xbox and PlayStation platforms. No, the specs of these are not known. Yes, rumours are pointing every which way. But we don't need concrete information on the latter to side with the 'Wii U underpowered' argument based on the current information.

And yeah Gaborn, it does come down that. Underpowered compared to WHAT exactly? No idea man, no idea. None of us (except the special, lucky few :P) do. Hopefully we know sooner rather than later so we can have a basis for comparison. But until then all I we can go off is the known knowns, as few and vague as they might be.

Ultimately the policy I adopt is this; though we know not the specs of any of the three next generation systems, if the Wii U is not underpowered compared to Sony and Microsoft's offerings, why are reliable people implying that it is?

[sonitii]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Wii U name. Hope they change it before release. Even Wii 2 sounds better to me.

[Gaborn]

And now that we do, it looks like the next Xbox will be twice as powerful as Wii U. That's not even PS2 vs. Xbox, let along Wii vs. PS360. At the first glance, it would put Wii U and Microsoft's next system in the same ballpark.

Which is why I'm guessing the rumored hexcore and dual gpu is complete bullshit. I'll believe that when I see it. Hell, 6 core isn't even PC STANDARD yet and you think that's going to be in a game system?

[wsippel]

A really simple example of what I'm getting at is what Chopper and lherre have said. I know Chopper well enough to know he is telling the truth. I know that if that is what his source told him, then that is what his source believes. If this is what the source believes, that the Wii U is underpowered in comparison to the other next generation systems, then either they made an error (for unexplainable reasons), or they're accurate. I have no reason to believe in anything other than the latter. This person's personal frustration with the specs? Their business. But the statement itself? It's either underpowered or it isn't. There's no inbetween.

I don't disagree, but has Chopper or his source seen an Xbox 3 or PS 4 devkit yet? That's the $100 question. I wouldn't be surprised if developers massively overestimated what Sony and MS can and will do.

[blu]

It's hard to say how much RAM will be there, but it won't make a huge difference. Taking lherre and Chopper's comments into account, along with the bits and pieces devs have slipped and yes, it is far more probable than not (if not set in stone) that the Wii U will be notably underpowered compared to the next Xbox and PlayStation.

Notable by whom? Unprepared observers have serious trouble telling apart meshes of difference in complexities as large as 2x to 3x, and well below the saturation threshold of a few pixels per polygon (No, I did not just make that up). You do realize that all it takes for a 60fps game which does twice as much pixel shading work as WiiU's hard limits is to run at 30fps and voila - the WiiU can do it! And this is before using 'dirty tricks' as render targets downscaling and shit. And before the fabled effect of diminishing returns. Unless WiiU is entirely devoid of any tessellation capabilities (I don't see that happening, but let's assume for the sake of argument), I can guarantee you that there will be WiiU games screenshots that an observer will have no way in hell of telling which of the three HD platforms produced that, without receiving extra tips. More often then not, the times when things will be noticeable will be in side-by-side comparisons, and often not without the 'pixel counting' ordinary gamers are far from practicing.

Here's an honest question to you: given the huge chasm in power between todays upper-end gaming PC and the current passing gen of consoles, how often do you see a game screenshot of not-immediately-telling resolution, and not look for the caption to see what platform that comes from?

How underpowered? How close to a Wii situation? Impossible to say. But noticeably underpowered by comparison, enough for people to comment on the matter.

Actually, in terms of the Wii situation, it's quite possible to say, an it's 'nowhere near the Wii situation; not even in the same ballpark'.

I figure anybody at this point who believes the gap wont be all that large is either misinformed or optimistic almost to the point of delusion.

Come on now. I've seen you more level-headed before.

[BurntPork]

I'm hoping for 1.25GB of RAM. For a current-gen system, that would be fantastic.

EDIT: I'm hoping for/expecting

2.0GHz custom PowerPC tri-core CPU closely related to POWER7 @45nm
600MHz Redwood LE w/ 10MB eDRAM @40nm
1.25GB GDDR3 (but clocked higher than the 360) @28nm
Up to 4xMSAA support

That should be good enough for great looking Nintendo games. The CPU and GPU migh be slightly optimistic, though...

[Zoramon089]

I'm hoping for 1.25GB of RAM. For a current-gen system, that would be fantastic.

Current gen consoles don't have replaceable RAM

[Forsaken82]

I figure anybody at this point who believes the gap wont be all that large is either misinformed or optimistic almost to the point of delusion.

I think the general consensus is that it won't be as large as the Wii to 360 gap was, not that it won't be all that large, which I whole heartedly agree with.

[EatChildren]

I don't disagree, but has Chopper or his source seen an Xbox 3 or PS 4 devkit yet? That's the $100 question. I wouldn't be surprised if developers massively overestimated what Sony and MS can and will do.

Why would they specifically state the Wii U as 'underpowered' comparatively unless they had something to compare it to? They'd have to be literally making things up, or making brash assumptions. I have no reason to believe they're doing this.

Remember that the Wii U's specs won't be the only ones out there. Just because there hasn't been an official announcement doesn't mean developers and publishers don't have early information on the next Sony/Microsoft systems. Even if they don't have devkits, the target (or preliminary) specs will be out there. At this point at least the major publishers will have a fairly good idea on the hardware direction of all three systems.

Here's an honest question to you: given the huge chasm in power between todays upper-end gaming PC and the current passing gen of consoles, how often do you see a game screenshot of not-immediately-telling resolution, and not look for the caption to see what platform that comes from?

Frequently. But this is an unknown I'm not applying to next generation because I don't know the concrete specs of any of the three systems. I might have an opinion on how things are heading, but I'm not going to make wild assumptions on an unknown future.

Actually, in terms of the Wii situation, it's quite possible to say, an it's 'nowhere near the Wii situation; not even in the same ballpark'.

And I feel this way too, personally, but I don't have the info to make a truly objective statement one way or the other.

Come on now. I've seen you more level-headed before.

I regret nothing.

[BurntPork]

Current gen consoles don't have replaceable RAM

What does that have to do with anything?

Okay, next Nintendo-gen. Better? Nintendo's no longer part of the standard console market.

... The worst part is that I'm reminded of Apple, a company I HATE.

[wsippel]

One thing people tend to forget, and something I have to bring up again and again like a broken record, is that PC hardware manufacturers cheated. When the last generation started, I had an insanely powerful and expensive workstation: Dual Opteron, 2GB registered low latency DDR with ECC, U160 SCSI subsystem with three harddisks, SCSI DVD-ROM, SCSI DVD recorder, Analog Devices Sharc DSP card, Quadro 3000G. Now that was bleeding edge at the time. Thing is: To build something comparable these days, you're looking at two to three times the power consumption. And while the case was a big tower back then and would still be a big tower today, that old ultra high end system ran perfectly cool and stable using three 8cm case fans.

Why would they specifically state the Wii U as 'underpowered' comparatively unless they had something to compare it to? They'd have to be literally making things up, or making brash assumptions. I have no reason to believe they're doing this.

I believe it, though, and I have little reason not to. I believe developers think it's underpowered compared to some baseless expectations. At least until someone who's in the know states otherwise.

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Why would they specifically state the Wii U as 'underpowered' comparatively unless they had something to compare it to? They'd have to be literally making things up, or making brash assumptions. I have no reason to believe they're doing this.

They are likely making assumptions, but not 'brash' ones. I mean, let's play hypotheticals for a second. You just get a devkit from Nintendo for their new console. It's a tri-core processor like the 360, although each core is a bit beefier. It has twice the total memory, but a 2x increase is not even close to what you normally get for a new generation. The GPU is more powerful, but as with the other components not really amazingly so.

That's basically the picture painted by a lot of the early WiiU rumors (not sure if there were updated rumors since then, there may be). If this was roughly true, based on the assumption that MS and Sony weren't going to pull a Wii and release a console only 50% more powerful than their current one, calling it underpowered is probably extremely justified. Even without this assumption, they may call it that simply to express their disappointment in next generation consoles.

[EatChildren]

In order for that to be true we'd have to assume these statements were made while the sources were unaware of the specs of the next Microsoft/Sony systems. Given Chopper's were only from the last few weeks, I find that very hard to believe. Pubs/devs will know, at the very least, early specs for the PS4/XboxWhatever.

[Log4Girlz]

I think the Wii U is similar to the Wii in the sense that it is at its heart, just a beefed up last generation system. The difference now being that the Wii-U should have modern GPU features and a decent amount of RAM. So this is like an Xbox 360 on steroids as opposed to a "OMG NEW GEN YAY" system. I am ok with this.

[blu]

That's still not answering my question. ;) BC is one aspect. My question is whether to throw the whole TEV architecture out of the window, or improve and combine it with current GPU technology instead?

Ah, ok, gotcha now ; )

Well, I consider myself a guy with a taste for retro and obscure architectures (heck, i've written graphics code for things 99% of gaf has not even heard of ; ), but putting on my 'pragmatic hat', even I don't see much of a point in keeping the TEV, if it's properly emulatable. Why keep it around if the same effects can be carried not slower in shaders? There's the notion of maximizing the use of your transistors, and in by this metrics, TEV would be a waste of die space today. I mean, TEV was arguably the swan song of an entire gpu era, but that is gone now ; )

[Nuclear Muffin]

In order for that to be true we'd have to assume these statements were made while the sources were unaware of the specs of the next Microsoft/Sony systems. Given Chopper's were only from the last few weeks, I find that very hard to believe. Pubs/devs will know, at the very least, early specs for the PS4/XboxWhatever.

Well, apparently, Microsoft haven't even sent out the first iteration of the dev kit yet...

http://www.next-gen.biz/news/next-ge...on-arrive-2012

[TheNatural]

So all the rumors of the next XBox now coming in late 2012, it's why I was questioning why Nintendo showed such an unready Wii U presence at E3. It basically put the competitors on alert that they're coming out, and now they sped up their process to get out on time.

So now, Wii U could come out at the same time as the next XBox, possibly with a lot less power. The element of surprise is now gone. They should have waited until there was something substantial to show off and then do it, not just push something out to meet an E3 deadline.

[EatChildren]

Well, apparently, Microsoft haven't even sent out the first iteration of the dev kit yet... http://www.next-gen.biz/news/next-ge...on-arrive-2012

Which is fine, hence working with target specs on custom kits, which is usually how these things start. It's not like a devkit shows up and that's the first word you hear of what kind of specs you'll be looking at.

[lwilliams3]

They are likely making assumptions, but not 'brash' ones. I mean, let's play hypotheticals for a second. You just get a devkit from Nintendo for their new console. It's a tri-core processor like the 360, although each core is a bit beefier. It has twice the total memory, but a 2x increase is not even close to what you normally get for a new generation. The GPU is more powerful, but as with the other components not really amazingly so. That's basically the picture painted by a lot of the early WiiU rumors (not sure if there were updated rumors since then, there may be). If this was roughly true, based on the assumption that MS and Sony weren't going to pull a Wii and release a console only 50% more powerful than their current one, calling it underpowered is probably extremely justified. Even without this assumption, they may call it that simply to express their disappointment in next generation consoles.

Good post, and I agree that could be a possibility. There may be alot of dissappointed developers when the nextbox and PS4 also does not match their expectations.

[Luckyman]

Well, apparently, Microsoft haven't even sent out the first iteration of the dev kit yet... http://www.next-gen.biz/news/next-ge...on-arrive-2012

While Nintendo's new console is significantly more powerful than its predecessor, it boasts little improvement over the current generation of HD consoles in terms of raw processing power. Wii U has been positioned to developers as a suitable home for Xbox 360 and PS3 ports

There you have it.

[BurntPork]

God, it's Wii all over again! Guys, it's over. Wii U will be the Wii of next-gen, not the PS2. It'll get slightly better multiplat support than Wii, but not much. You'll still be forced to buy another console, and only 1-2 good games will release for it every year. It'll get even less exclusives than Wii due to higher development costs and the fact that it'll probably sell 50-75% of what Wii did. You're just setting yourselves up for disappointment by staying in denial. Expect a console ~50% more powerful than the current gen to avoid disappointment, and be happy that Nintendo's even going that far instead of just making a Wii with HD output. If it turns out to be more than that, you'll be excited if you keep your expectations low. Keeping them low will be good no matter what. You can either risk being disappointed, or ensure that you'll be happy. What sounds better?

[snesfreak]

There you have it.

No, you don't have it.

[King_Moc]

Wii U has been positioned to developers as a suitable home for Xbox 360 and PS3 ports

Why would Nintendo sell a console on the basis that it can run games from consoles that are literally about to become obsolete?

It makes no sense.

[bgassassin]

Well, apparently, Microsoft haven't even sent out the first iteration of the dev kit yet... http://www.next-gen.biz/news/next-ge...on-arrive-2012

Sounded more like Ubisoft is working with an Alpha kit and are waiting for the next version that better represents what will be in the final console.

There you have it.

Have what? A comment based on what was originally thought of about Wii U? Says nothing about how it will compare to the other new consoles.

[BurntPork]

lol Luckyman confused blind assumptions by the article's author with comments from the leaker. Despite my recent posts, that's just too funny! Now he's going to quote that article every time Wii U power is brought up and look like an idiot, whether it's right or not.

[daCuk]

Why would Nintendo sell a console on the basis that it can run games from consoles that are literally about to become obsolete? It makes no sense.

Maybe because costs for newer-gen consoles will skyrocket, leaving on its trail broken developers and insane budgets.

[bgassassin]

Maybe because costs for newer-gen consoles will skyrocket, leaving on its trail broken developers and insane budgets.

And games possibly selling at $70 (at least) to make up for that.

[snesfreak]

Damn, you know you're spewing bullshit when BP calls you out.

[Log4Girlz]

There you have it.

If rumors are true about the Wii-U, yes it can be a friendly home for up-ports of current HD gen games, or an equally friendly home for downports of the new HD twins. There shouldn't be any reason to recreate a game from the ground up like what is necessary if you really want the next Assassin's Creed on the Wii.

[TwilightPrincess]

In order for that to be true we'd have to assume these statements were made while the sources were unaware of the specs of the next Microsoft/Sony systems. Given Chopper's were only from the last few weeks, I find that very hard to believe. Pubs/devs will know, at the very least, early specs for the PS4/XboxWhatever.

Only if you assume that everyone (every team) is allready involved in PS4Loop development. Don´t think it is naturally given, that everyone has these insights, like with wiiu.... Leaving Chopper out of this, i highly doubt, that early wiiU comments and comparings were based on facts from Loop Specsheets... some developers you mentioned even said, that it are assumptions, like the "gap-step" one. ID believed in 10 times+ faster for next gen, because thats where pcs are/were. Perhaps Chopper can chat with his friend about this issue and clear things up a little bit.

WiiU could be 3 to 4 times stronger and more modern, you could deny it is next gen. But what happens if Loop is only twice as strong? Someone from Epic (?) meant, that WiiU isn´t late, he said it is to early.... Why would you say this? You would if you thought, Next Gen MS System is years away......

[blu]

There you have it.

Wanna bet WiiU will have plenty of ps4/loop downports too?

[King_Moc]

Maybe because costs for newer-gen consoles will skyrocket, leaving on its trail broken developers and insane budgets.

Right, but that doesn't equate to just wanting loads of 360/PS3 ports? Surely they would be looking to follow the Wii's current path of predominantly having content that the others are unable to emulate, but just having it with HD graphics? I'd have thought most ports would come from the next gen consoles, rather than the current ones.

And yes, if every game is going to have a budget of tens of millions of dollars a heck of a lot of companies are gonna go under. Possibly more so than in this gen.

[Zoramon089]

Damn, you know you're spewing bullshit when BP calls you out.

Lol, yeah at that point you might want to reevaluate yourself and your posts

[TheNatural]

God, it's Wii all over again! Guys, it's over. Wii U will be the Wii of next-gen, not the PS2. It'll get slightly better multiplat support than Wii, but not much. You'll still be forced to buy another console, and only 1-2 good games will release for it every year. It'll get even less exclusives than Wii due to higher development costs and the fact that it'll probably sell 50-75% of what Wii did. You're just setting yourselves up for disappointment by staying in denial. Expect a console ~50% more powerful than the current gen to avoid disappointment, and be happy that Nintendo's even going that far instead of just making a Wii with HD output. If it turns out to be more than that, you'll be excited if you keep your expectations low. Keeping them low will be good no matter what. You can either risk being disappointed, or ensure that you'll be happy. What sounds better?

I think the difference is there is going to be more games available for Wii U if it's just midway between 360 and PS3, because the 360 and PS3 have huge user bases and those consoles aren't going to be completely abandoned right off the start like last gen. Wii got a little PS2 level release porting, but the PS2 was basically dead for new releases and XBox and Gamecube WERE dead. Sony may not have a PS4 until late 2013 or later, PS3 will be supported and 360 still sells great and will be supported.

[Javier]

We need actual info from Nintendo ASAP. I'm not sure how long will this thread be able to hold itself.

And I'm surprised BurntPork doesn't have a tag yet.

[daCuk]

Right, but that doesn't equate to just wanting loads of 360/PS3 ports? Surely they would be looking to follow the Wii's current path of predominantly having content that the others are unable to emulate, but just having it with HD graphics? I'd have thought most ports would come from the next gen consoles, rather than the current ones. And yes, if every game is going to have a budget of tens of millions of dollars a heck of a lot of companies are gonna go under. Possibly more so than in this gen.

Ports are cheaper, less-risk options to get more revenue, and re-using assets from other platforms to create other versions could guarantee that, at least, WiiU will not be as third-party-support starved as its predecessor.

For me, next gen will be again a game of 2 consoles: either PS4 or next Xbox for third party games, and WiiU for Nintendo games and the ocassional 3rd party gem or upgraded downport.

[-Pyromaniac-]

We need actual info from Nintendo ASAP. I'm not sure how long will this thread be able to hold itself. And I'm surprised BurntPork doesn't have a tag yet.

considering iwata is on the hot seat they better hook some shit up knamean

[TunaLover]

Japan is still playing catch-up with technology, I´d prefer an enviorement in which development costs are stabilised, in which more studios can compete in each other with more or less the same technological access.

[King_Moc]

For me, next gen will be again a game of 2 consoles: either PS4 or next Xbox for third party games, and WiiU for Nintendo games and the ocassional 3rd party gem or upgraded downport.

Most definately. And as long as the WiiU games don't look like crap on a 40" screen, for me, it'll be amazing.

Remember, lack of HD aside, Mario Galaxy is honestly one of the best looking games this gen.

[BurntPork]

I think the difference is there is going to be more games available for Wii U if it's just midway between 360 and PS3, because the 360 and PS3 have huge user bases and those consoles aren't going to be completely abandoned right off the start like last gen. Wii got a little PS2 level release porting, but the PS2 was basically dead for new releases and XBox and Gamecube WERE dead. Sony may not have a PS4 until late 2013 or later, PS3 will be supported and 360 still sells great and will be supported.

Yeah, but no one will buy Wii U for ports of games on consoles they already have. Nintendo really had the potential to be the cheap next-gen console. Choosing to be an expensive current-gen console could backfire.

We need actual info from Nintendo ASAP. I'm not sure how long will this thread be able to hold itself. And I'm surprised BurntPork doesn't have a tag yet.

They think I'm trying to get a tag.

[Zoramon089]

Yeah, but no one will buy Wii U for ports of games on consoles they already have. Nintendo really had the potential to be the cheap next-gen console. Choosing to be an expensive current-gen console could backfire.

Which we don't know is the case...

[bgassassin]

I always forgot the internal devkits only for nintendo studios :P (the first ones or "Version 0"), this is why is difficult to count sometimes XD.

Revisiting this discussion, which version was reportedly underclocked?