[GTP_Daverytimes]

And by GTP_Daverytimes's logic you believe that cows are holy. OM. ॐ

Funniest thing to come out of here, i can't knock around their believes.

[teh_pwn]

I laughed so hard my sides hurt.

Make sense. Kind of like how only Christians say "God Dammit". But they can't because it's in vain....DOES NOT COMPUTE. SYSTEM FAILURE...

[wolfmat]

Alright, Big Bang:
Universe was in a condensed state (nontrivial)
Something happened (unclear what)
Universe expanded pretty fast as a result
Evidence for expansion is found in background radiation (Finding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discove...ound_radiation)
Lots of mysteries remain unsolved (extremely nontrivial magical stuff like dark matter and shit)

Start from there.

[Kapura]

I wanted to post this again now that the daveytown sillyness has died down again. Some of the people make good points about various aspects of what religion is.

[Pixel Pete]

So I would like to know what your cause was as an atheist if you are not a naturalist.

Just because I don't agree that god did it, doesn't mean I have an answer. I can't retain my intellectual integrity if I default to an uncaused cause just because there may not be a better answer.

There is nothing wrong with saying I dont know. It's intellectually honest.

I don't even see how we could define "good" or "evil" without some objective moral code. I don't see how that comes about naturally.

It's interesting to know, sure, but largely irrelevant. You do it anyway. Do you personally think homosexuals are inherently evil, an 'abomination', 'detestable', etc?

[Lesath]

Fuck is a popular saying yet there are people out there that avoid saying it because of their moral standing, why? Should they start uttering the word Fuck and forget about their moral standing just because its a popular saying? anyways the longer i stay here the more drowsy i get. i need some sleep i have been up since 5 in the morning.

It does not offend a reasonable atheist's morals to say "thank God," frankly, because the pragmatic amongst us do not see any sort of rational justification for its disuse. It is a vestige of the English language that had been sculpted by hundreds of years of Christianity, and the phrase works and will continue working because we don't have more efficient or popular alternative ways to express spoken relief.

I mean, both you and I are totally fine with Tiw's Day, Odin's Day, Thor's Day, and Frejya's Day. Do you blaspheme every time you recall a day of the week?

[Cyan]

Surely true believers wouldn't throw around "Jesus H Christ!" and "God damn it!" Or even "Thank God!" Thou shalt not take His name in vain, it's right there in the Ten Commandments.

Isn't "God damn it!" objectively immoral?

[wolfmat]

Isn't "God damn it!" objectively immoral?

Not when there is no God. It's like saying "Thor damn it!" or something. It doesn't mean anything. Even damnation itself is completely meaningless. It's a form of saying "I don't like this particular thing", basically.

[Pixel Pete]

I mean, both you and I are totally fine with Tiw's Day, Odin's Day, Thor's Day, and Frejya's Day. Do you blaspheme every time you recall a day of the week?

well, I certainly am not, pagan!

<3 paganism

:)

[les papillons sexuels]

well, I certainly am not, pagan! <3 paganism :)

wouldn't that be norse, not pagan?

[TaeOH]

It's interesting to know, sure, but largely irrelevant. You do it anyway. Do you personally think homosexuals are inherently evil, an 'abomination', 'detestable', etc?

I think we ALL have a sin nature as we are ALL in rebellion of God.

[teh_pwn]

I think we ALL have a sin nature as we are ALL in rebellion of God.

Those morals aren't up to my standards. All sexuality between consenting adults is moral.

I'm an agnostic daywalker in this argument, but the morality argument is a bit too much for me.

[Glasswork]

wouldn't that be norse, not pagan?

Isn't paganism just an umbrella term for non-Monotheistic (or maybe Abrahamic?) religions?
I've heard people calling Hindus/Buddhists pagan.

[2th]

Ill just throw in my 2 cents in this massive clusterfuck of a thread.

Im agnostic leaning more toward atheism. It isnt that i do not believe in a God. I just do not really care. I try to be a good person and no kill, steal, lie, etc. but do i need religion to tell me that? No. Do i see a usefulness in religion? Yes. People need to be taught morality and religions help with that. Is there a god? Dont know. Do i think there is some sort of higher being that maybe created life. Dont know but it would be kind of cool if there was just to meet them.

[wolfmat]

I think we ALL have a sin nature as we are ALL in rebellion of God.

I never understood the concept of sin. What's the point? Can someone clarify?

[salva]

Used to be catholic, then considered myself deist, now i think i'm an atheist.

God, people can be so fucking stupid. Yesterday at work, some of my coworkers and i were talking and one of them said something about atheists. I asked what was wrong with atheists and said that i was one. One of them just said, "you don't believe in God? What gets you up in the morning every day?" I could have gone with an explanation about the biological processes and circadial rhythm getting you up in the morning but talking sense with these retards wouldn't be helpful.

Now today, i asked one of them "hey *name*, how's life? (as a way to ask what was up)" and he just said "well, i feel very blessed! Did you know that there's more to life than life and death?" I simply rolled my eyes and said "i don't know man, i haven't seen anything yet."

Basically, i don't try and argue about religion because my coworkers are fucking retarded and so are lots of my friends; hence, why i don't put "atheist" in my FB profile.

[blame space]

there was this fruit and god said eve couldn't eat it but she ate it anyway and now we're all born with original sin and we go to hell if we aren't baptised..

the holy water washes away your original sin i think idk

why did he put the fruit there in the first place, to be an asshole? fuck that, the snake is right, eat the fucking fruit. hail satan.

[TaeOH]

I never understood the concept of sin. What's the point? Can someone clarify?

Well in the most simplistic terms it is the second half of my statement. Rebellion against God.

[Pixel Pete]

I think we ALL have a sin nature as we are ALL in rebellion of God.

That doesn't answer my question. Speak for yourself, not what your scripture tells you.

wouldn't that be norse, not pagan?

I'm using in the broad, 'heathen' definition of the word.

I never understood the concept of sin. What's the point? Can someone clarify?

control through guilt.

[Dai101]

there was this fruit and god said eve couldn't eat it but she ate it anyway and now we're all born with original sin and we go to hell if we aren't baptised.. the holy water washes away your original sin i think idk why did he put the fruit there in the first place, to be an asshole? fuck that, the snake is right, eat the fucking fruit. hail satan.

[wolfmat]

Sin's probably yet another ploy and that's it, right? To attach people to their church with some fucked up concept about how you're actually an asshole and staring at crosses makes you a tiny bit less of an asshole, and whoever's the least of an asshole wins at the end?

I mean, it's so dumb. I can't comprehend how people fell for this stuff back in the days. I'm sure they had to forcefeed this drivel into people right from the start.

And now it's gotten mythical proportions through the power of persistence. Great job, Romans. Goddammit.

[blame space]

god's threat is a punishment of eternal life in hell

i dunno if he heard, but the United States of America does not negotiate with terrorists.

[Kapura]

So do you think we should send SEAL Team Six to... Kill God?

[TaeOH]

That doesn't answer my question. Speak for yourself, not what your scripture tells you.

Ok. I am not attracted to other men and to be honest the whole thought of it kind of grosses me out. But I really don't care what you do in your bedroom. (a general you, since I do now know if you are gay).

[Cyan]

god's threat is a punishment of eternal life in hell i dunno if he heard, but the United States of America does not negotiate with terrorists. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/EQsWh.jpg[IMG]

Are we just trolling religious peeps at this point?

[blame space]

i dunno.. i'm just making posts from my heart.

wouldn't you say that's christianity's main incentive? not spending eternal life in perpetual pain?

[Sutton Dagger]

I am seriously not looking into the matter of the origin of life. And I am a believer, so if God's word says God created everything in seven days, I am ok with that answer as that is not my calling in life, to prove creation. Although I admit I find young earth creationists arguments fascinating because I appreciate the dedication.

This is where I (and many other Atheists) differ from you. You are essentially saying you don't care if it's true or not, you have built your worldview on the assumption that it is true and anything to the contrary is discarded. It all comes down to whether you care if your beliefs are 'true' or not (in a general sense), I would prefer to believe in as many true things and as few false things as possible. I can guarantee you that many of the Atheists here have reached the position of 'Atheist' through careful reflection and often painful abandonment of beliefs that don't have a rational/logical/evidence basis.

[Freezie KO]

This is where I (and many other Atheists) differ from you. You are essentially saying you don't care if it's true or not, you have built your worldview on the assumption that it is true and anything to the contrary is discarded. It all comes down to whether you care if your beliefs are 'true' or not (in a general sense), I would prefer to believe in as many true things and as few false things as possible. I can guarantee you that many of the Atheists here have reached the position of 'Atheist' through careful reflection and often painful abandonment of beliefs that don't have a rational/logical/evidence basis.

I wish I believed in an afterlife. Shit haunts me everyday. :(

[soul creator]

all these posts by GTP_Daverytimes is a pretty good display of how religious beliefs can cloud people's normal thinking processes.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's relatively rational and understanding when it comes to other aspects of life, but when religious beliefs are on the table (yes, even the "good" and "liberal" ones), those beliefs seem to be rather capable of short circuiting that normal process.

Or a better way to phrase it may be that religious beliefs tend to amplify the irrationality that's already inherent in our imperfect brains. And then it manifests itself in discussions by:

1) causing you to think that someone using a common figure speech means they secretly actually believe it literally. Thanks to GAF, I call this Argumentum ad "Tastes Like Shit"

y'all eat pieces of shit? what's the basis? (c) Kanye

2) causing you to ignore numerous links on a forum that answers the questions you keep asking over and over again. Links are even highlighted in a separate color, yet they're still ignored.

3) causing you to think that because a process doesn't answer every single question, it is therefore useless, and as much a religion as anything else. So even though he's obstensibly typing his posts on a computer that was created via scientific processes, probably has clean water that was maintained via scientific processes, and probably uses reason in plenty of other aspects of his life (I'm sure he opens a door first before exiting a room, rather than attempting to Nightcrawler his way through it), he chalks that up as being the same as believing there's an invisible dude that creates things with magic powers.

This is why some atheists "push" defend and discuss on internet forums, as opposed to what religions have historically done their beliefs. Because we don't like seeing our fellow human beings reduced to this. A miserable pile of really bad arguments.

edit: This article by Greta Christina probably applies to TaeOH

[Cyan]

wouldn't you say that's christianity's main incentive? not spending eternal life in perpetual pain?

Well, there's also a carrot. So you could look at it the other way.

Or there's the old maxim, "do unto others..."

[wolfmat]

Are we just trolling religious peeps at this point?

I'm not trolling. I expressed my genuine opinion so far. For example, I really think the Romans kind of fucked it all up when they had to deal with the upcoming Christian movement. They should've exercised a lot more control in hindsight, just as they did in a lot of other cases. Not that they could have predicted the outcome or would have had an easy time handling social affairs with a persistent Christian underground if they wouldn't have adopted the religion implicitly when they illegalized worship of other Gods, but regardless.

[CriginsMcJuggs]

there was this fruit and god said eve couldn't eat it but she ate it anyway and now we're all born with original sin and we go to hell if we aren't baptised.. the holy water washes away your original sin i think idk why did he put the fruit there in the first place, to be an asshole? fuck that, the snake is right, eat the fucking fruit. hail satan.

If satan gets me the fruit Im all for it

[TaeOH]

This is where I (and many other Atheists) differ from you. You are essentially saying you don't care if it's true or not, you have built your worldview on the assumption that it is true and anything to the contrary is discarded. It all comes down to whether you care if your beliefs are 'true' or not (in a general sense), I would prefer to believe in as many true things and as few false things as possible. I can guarantee you that many of the Atheists here have reached the position of 'Atheist' through careful reflection and often painful abandonment of beliefs that don't have a rational/logical/evidence basis.

Yet there have been many intelligent men over the course of history (and of course today) who have come to a very rational/logical/evidential belief in God. You seem do be disregarding all of that because you cannot seem to wrap your mind around the metaphysical.

I care very much whether what I believe and live my life by is true. What makes absolutely no difference in my day to day life is what happened ten thousand or 16 billion years ago as I don't think we can EVER know for certain since no man existed then. So if we ever get that answer, it will be God answering it to our face.

I do not disregard science, as I can and will ALWAYS be able to interpret facts in light of a creator. It is the most complete answer to life IMO.

[Aristion]

There is a God because of the impossibility of the contrary. For the atheist, the source of reality (i.e. the Universe) is either absolute chance or an absolute determinism. If it is the former (chance), we could never know of what this 'absolute' is, as the concept of randomness is an incoherent concept to a person who thinks in deterministic categories. The ancient philosopher Anaximander spoke of the 'arche' (source) of all reality an indeterminate being which created the Universe by absolute chance, and yet paradoxically, he said that he had intellectual knowledge of it. But if the source of all logic is unknowable, the logic that is entailed by it is unknowable, and we could never have any knowledge of anything at all. In other words, if we could only define something by what it is not (e.g. indeterminate, impersonal, unknowable etc.) then you cannot know anything about it at all, including it's existence! The other route the Atheist could take is to assert that the Universe is absolutely logically necessary (the Universe is eternal and was not brought into existence). This is similar to the deterministic position of Parmenides, who famously asserted that freedom or change is impossible. But this must be false, as one can conceive of oneself as existing under different circumstances or existing within a different Universe than the one we currently exist in (otherwise the 'I' that I can conceive of as existing in another universe is not really me at all). There is similarly the properly basic belief that humans have freedom in choice (and thus we have moral obligations due to our ability to choose otherwise). This is why the only logical position to hold (and the position that is assumed by everyone who reasons), is that the source of all reality is not absolute determinism or absolute indeterminism, but a libertarian (free) agent who freely brings the Universe into existence, and who can be defined as an agent who is spaceless, timeless, immaterial and MUST be personal in order to avoid the irrational implications of the erroneous positions that have been outlined.

Bumping my reasons for knowing God exists.

there was this fruit and god said eve couldn't eat it but she ate it anyway and now we're all born with original sin and we go to hell if we aren't baptised.. the holy water washes away your original sin i think idk why did he put the fruit there in the first place, to be an asshole? fuck that, the snake is right, eat the fucking fruit. hail satan.

Such a well-thought out theological treatise.

[blame space]

there's a reason the generation that grew up on the internet is the most godless.

i don't believe anything anyone says, too many people are just too deceptive (most of the time without even knowing it). why should i believe there's a magic man upstairs who has the power to smite? but when he smites, he's never obvious about it, it's always totally explainable. that's the worst part about christianity: you're told to believe something outright because someone told you to. there's even a word for it in catholicism, i think. god will never, ever be able to be proven: believe or go to hell.

[Pixel Pete]

Ok. I am not attracted to other men and to be honest the whole thought of it kind of grosses me out. But I really don't care what you do in your bedroom. (a general you, since I do now know if you are gay).

You seem to be avoiding the central point of my question, so I'll just plough ahead.
I can only assume that you not caring if someone is homosexual is as good an admission that you think homosexuality is not immoral as I'll get.
But to avoid putting words in your mouth, I'll work in hypotheticals instead.

It's a poignant example.

God's account and opinion on homosexuality in scripture is clear. He doesn't like it. It's an abomination, detestable. For all intents and purposes, it's immoral, working on the assumption that your morals come from how God feels about things.

Modern Moderate Christians around the world are guilty of this: they don't think homosexuality is immoral. If you were such a Christian, how would you make this decision?

You're an adult, you make your own decisions.
Sometimes scripture is outdated. Not everything written in it is taken literally. Heck, it's a revised document!
But when you decide to disagree with a moral standing in scripture, God's moral standing, how do you do it?

What criteria do you use? How do you pick those criteria? How do you decide what is and isn't literal, and whose criteria do you use?

Morals are constantly changing with society. Today, it is morally wrong to treat a woman as a lesser person. Today, it is morally wrong to enslave another human being. There was once a time where neither of these statements were true.

God has not retconned the bible.

How is it that either of these moral statements have changed without the guidance of God?
How is it that cultures and even religions around the world have distinctly different moral codes?

This is morality. It is distinct and separate from scripture. It is a necessary social construct. It is always changing.

Earnestly using God as an anchor for morality terrifies me, it really does.
God's moral code is dangerously stagnant.

[wolfmat]

Bumping my reasons for knowing God exists.

There is also a seeming determinism that 'flitters' in the details.

The source of all logic is embedded in its defining axioms and their application to verbal representations of situations.

Logic cannot be 'all there is' because that would go against Gödel's First Incompleteness Theorem.

None of these points have any bearing on the determination of whether or not there is a God, however.

[blame space]

anyone else secretly hope the rapture happens and you see all the religious people you know left behind just like you because they ate meat on friday or something?

[wolfmat]

Just to give you a starting point why that is: Assuming there is a source of reality without any concrete evidence is an extreme leap. At the moment, it does not seem there ever was no reality; currently, all we can guess is that reality distorts, up to an extreme in which time and space become meaningless even (a state for which we have evidence, see Big Bang).

[soul creator]

Yet there have been many intelligent men over the course of history (and of course today) who have come to a very rational/logical/evidential belief in God. You seem do be disregarding all of that because you cannot seem to wrap your mind around the metaphysical.

What are these rational/logical/evidential reasons for belief in God (assuming God is defined as a personal being that actually interacts with our universe in some way, and isn't just some vague and slippery "creator")

"I can't think of anything else to explain how this works, and science can't either, therefore God" isn't really a rational argument for God. It's a rational argument for saying "I don't know how this works".

I care very much whether what I believe and live my life by is true. What makes absolutely no difference in my day to day life is what happened ten thousand or 16 billion years ago as I don't think we can EVER know for certain since no man existed then. So if we ever get that answer, it will be God answering it to our face.

I do not disregard science, as I can and will ALWAYS be able to interpret facts in light of a creator. It is the most complete answer to life IMO.

Wait, I thought you were Christian? You don't believe in a generic "creator", but rather a specific being who does specific things and promises specific results. Those are two wildly different claims. One actually opens itself up to being tested (and is generally what atheists are referring to when they say "I don't believe in the existence of a god").

How exactly does "god made it" answer "life"? How did you find this out? What mechanisms did he use to accomplish this? I suspect the reason it's considered an "answer" is because of social convention, not because it actually explains anything in any meaningful way. Especially since people can't even seem to define what they actually mean when they say the phrase "God created life". Although if you do have a definition, I'd love to hear it!

Also, you do disregard science in some respect, as you apparently believe there is an invisible being that can make things die and come back alive, and this invisible being can telepathically communicate with human beings, and this invisible being also has special feelings for human beings and that even though we're one species out of millions, on one planet in a vast universe, this invisible being apparently has special feelings for us.

There's no evidence for any of that (besides ancient holy books and "personal revelation"), but you believe it anyway, which seems to be a textbook case of "disregarding science". Of course, you may be fine with science in every other aspect of life, but when it comes to this specific topic...

[Nocebo]

To start off, i believe in God. What about you?

I don't. The idea that there is any truth behind it seems absurd in light of what we know about history and animal (that includes humans of course) psychology.

[Seda]

I believe in God. I have my reasons.

[Slavik81]

My wording reflects my interest in the Kalam Cosmological argument, I think it is a strong logical argument for the existence of God. "Whatever begins to exist has a cause. The universe began to exist. Therefore, the universe has a cause. This cause is the God of Classical Theism, and is a personal being, because He chose to create the universe." But ultimately you cannot even approach "why" without a creator. So I would like to know what your cause was as an atheist if you are not a naturalist.

I don't quite understand how this argument shows that God must be the personal god of classical theism. It made some sense until that leap of logic.

Mainly, I don't see how this argument shows that no other sort of god or supernatural process could fill the role of being first cause.

[Korey]

I believe in God. I have my reasons.

Because you were indoctrinated since birth?

[partime]

I'm not sure what I believe. I really hope there is a god and heaven but the older I get and the more I think about it, the more doubtful I become.

If you think of it selfishly, from the 1% chance that their could be a God, or heaven, why wouldn't you sign up just in case? Don't burn bridges before crossing them!

[Glasswork]

If you think of it selfishly, from the 1% chance that their could be a God, or heaven, why wouldn't you sign up just in case? Don't burn bridges before crossing them!

What if you sign up for the wrong god?

[Noirulus]

Bumping my reasons for knowing God exists.

Too much philosophy and too little science.

[partime]

What if you sign up for the wrong god?

There are hundreds of religions out there, but we use such a small percentage of our brain to understand them. You have 60 years, good luck!

[Gr1mLock]

At some point this argument just unravels. I have yet to have a discussion with someone religious where it doesnt end with something along the lines of 'well I believe and its truth to me'. The concept of a personal god is too subjective for confines of logic.

[Atramental]

If you think of it selfishly, from the 1% chance that their could be a God, or heaven, why wouldn't you sign up just in case? Don't burn bridges before crossing them!

Pascal's Wager...

It doesn't matter if he did end up believing in some type of generic god because his belief in that god could be flat out wrong. If Allah happens to be the one true god of the universe he'd be going straight to hell for not believing that there no other god but Allah.