[JGS]

From your post what comes out is basically this: Tyson says it's not fined-tuned, because it's a giant mess and there's so much stuff potentially eradicating life in a heart beat, therefore the fact that life actually happened is a miracle! Yes or no?

Wait, is that my part?

Then no I didn't say that nor did I say Tyson said that. If anything I'm agreeing with him without being an atheist. Life is pretty easy to explain without miracles (After all, it wasn't like I was the one talking about us getting here by abiogenesis...).

Anyway, why didn't you just quote what I said rather than paraphrase? The flaw has nothing to do with my beliefs about God, it's Tyson's belief about the religious.

LOL at you Finetuning and Intelligent Designing my response. You MUST prove me to be the dishonest so and so you know that I am don't ya?

You little obsessive compulsive you!

Pointing out that the world be a better place if volcanoes released some cute kittens once in a while instead of ultra-dangerous lava doesn't sound like the same thing as wishing to be controlled by God to me...

You wouldn't have to spay and neuter them. I'll take the lava...

Nature > God?

They aren't competing.
Nature > People, but that's not a real competition either

[krioto]

If only this god chap would speak up, it could clear up so much confusion.

And not through some weirdo (talk about a history of bad choices regarding conduits for a message).

Maybe a nice interview with that guy from 60 mins,.... no even better - Oprah. The studio audience present could be forgiveness of sins, or some virgins....

It's hard to take this stuff seriously.

[Erigu]

In fact, it sounds like a claim that someone dishonest or disingenuous would make. Hmm..

I hope you're not talking about me! Besides, they would be really cute kittens!

They aren't competing.

Didn't say anything about "competition", but if God created everything, universe, laws of physics and all, how does the "tectonic plates are necessary" argument stand?

[Lothar]

I hope you're not talking about me! Besides, they would be really cute kittens!

You didn't make that claim. You shouldn't think I was talking about you. I'm talking about the guy that made that claim. A volcano that made kittens would be nice. That would actually be the work of a loving God.

[Erigu]

Guess either God just isn't that nice, or plate tectonics transcend him, as JGS seems to be arguing (what a letdown!).

[Kinitari]

I think JGS fundamentally doesn't understand the core idea we try to communicate with this.

God designed nature, the laws of physics everything from scratch no? He could write the laws any way he damn well pleases, he could make it so the only thing needed for the earth to be functional is for it to be filled with marshmallows.

The fact that he created such a hostile world, where life has to struggle to inhabit so much of it - yet inherently WANTS to inhabit as much as possible - it kind of makes you think. It's not a clear cut sign that there is no God, but it is a clear cut sign that if he is around, he's either not omnipotent, not omniscient or just doesn't give THAT much of a shit about drowning us and burning us alive every once in a while. Or worse.

Odds are? He's not around.

[Kreunt]

this thread seems like it should be titled 'Atheism vs Christianity'.

also, am i the only non religious person that has a strong dislike for dawkins?. he's as much a fundamentalist loon as all the people he attacks.

[Kinitari]

this thread seems like it should be titled 'Atheism vs Christianity'. also, am i the only non religious person that has a strong dislike for dawkins?. he's as much a fundamentalist loon as all the people he attacks.

Give me an example of his fundamental lunacy?

[krioto]

also, am i the only non religious person that has a strong dislike for dawkins?. he's as much a fundamentalist loon as all the people he attacks.

Explain - to me, he sounds like someone who knows what he's talking about, and gets sick of answering the same moronic questions every time he does a debate.

Or is 'dawkins is a fundmentalist loon' a meme that has just gained traction through over-use by those who either don't understand/disagree with his POV?

[ZealousD]

this thread seems like it should be titled 'Atheism vs Christianity'. also, am i the only non religious person that has a strong dislike for dawkins?. he's as much a fundamentalist loon as all the people he attacks.

I wouldn't go that far, but I do believe that the harshness of tone by folks like Dawkins is ultimately counterproductive.

[Ledsen]

Very interesting thread. Living in Sweden (and not in out very own "bible belt") I haven't met that many openly religious people in my life (mostly muslims). It's interesting to me how it's such a natural part of life in other countries, like it was here in times past. For example, in the US, the president invokes God's name in speeches etc. No politician would even dream of doing that over here. We do have the Christan Democratic party in the parliament, but I don't think I've heard them refer to God very often (or ever). They play it down to appeal to normal voters, and instead they emphasize traditional family values etc.

[Log4Girlz]

I think JGS fundamentally doesn't understand the core idea we try to communicate with this. God designed nature, the laws of physics everything from scratch no? He could write the laws any way he damn well pleases, he could make it so the only thing needed for the earth to be functional is for it to be filled with marshmallows. The fact that he created such a hostile world, where life has to struggle to inhabit so much of it - yet inherently WANTS to inhabit as much as possible - it kind of makes you think. It's not a clear cut sign that there is no God, but it is a clear cut sign that if he is around, he's either not omnipotent, not omniscient or just doesn't give THAT much of a shit about drowning us and burning us alive every once in a while. Or worse. Odds are? He's not around.

There is no argument, no evidence, no hypothetical scenarios, no experiments which can be created that will sway a religious ideologue. Everything will be bent and twisted to fall in line with their beliefs.

[JGS]

I hope you're not talking about me! Besides, they would be really cute kittens!

Likely talking about me. It's getting to be a fairly common trope.

Didn't say anything about "competition", but if God created everything, universe, laws of physics and all, how does the "tectonic plates are necessary" argument stand?

Because it's scientific. God existing has nothing to do with science not being needed. Why would anyone make something that would require their constant attention for all eternity. Assuming nothing's perfect,a periodic maintenance schedule would suffice. Assuming God created the universe, there's no particular reason to think that this is the best way for it to function on it's own. Creations and inventions happen like this all the time. You would want them to be self-sufficient.

I think JGS fundamentally doesn't understand the core idea we try to communicate with this. God designed nature, the laws of physics everything from scratch no? He could write the laws any way he damn well pleases, he could make it so the only thing needed for the earth to be functional is for it to be filled with marshmallows. The fact that he created such a hostile world, where life has to struggle to inhabit so much of it - yet inherently WANTS to inhabit as much as possible - it kind of makes you think. It's not a clear cut sign that there is no God, but it is a clear cut sign that if he is around, he's either not omnipotent, not omniscient or just doesn't give THAT much of a shit about drowning us and burning us alive every once in a while. Or worse. Odds are? He's not around.

I understand what you're communicating, I just don't agree to the degree you are making it. The world isn't particularly hostile. It's largely a peaceful place. Unfortunately If you play the odds, then the overwhelming majority of humans out there will be born, live, & die in relative peace if not for the the issues mankind places on themselves.

Just as you said in your post, we inhabit the earth as much as we possibly can, so the process is working pretty well.

We are not under any obligation to fill the earth now. It's what we do because we like sex so much. We are not under any protections from God and so we run a very slight risk of the planet ripping us apart rather than the far more probable other way around. Absolute protections come with salvation and since there is no guarantee of that for people who don't want it, then they run a very small risk of dying before they croak naturally.

As I've said WAY too many times in this very thread, if God is required to know all things at all times, he's Scripturally not omniscient so not sure why that part of the argument keeps popping up. We agree on that one.

We disagree on the whacky notion that just because God is omnipotent, he is somehow required to protect things he created as free standing, individual things. That's not something that anyone should have expected so it shouldn't be used as an indication of non-existence. It's not even a human expectation to consider in real life except to condemn God on.

So I get what you're communicating- it's a wrong notion of what God is supposed to do for you.

Very interesting thread. Living in Sweden (and not in out very own "bible belt") I haven't met that many openly religious people in my life (mostly muslims). It's interesting to me how it's such a natural part of life in other countries, like it was here in times past. For example, in the US, the president invokes God's name in speeches etc. No politician would even dream of doing that over here. We do have the Christan Democratic party in the parliament, but I don't think I've heard them refer to God very often (or ever). They play it down to appeal to normal voters, and instead they emphasize traditional family values etc.

That's similar to here except the God part is meant to appeal to voters too. Most politicians commit to God during the campaigns since they think that what people want to here. Once in office, they do as they please according to the needs of the nation - in theory since they more or less suck.

Otherwise, no one talks too much about religion outside of their own groups which is as it should be. There was a silly thread about meeting Young Earth Creationists and I honestly can't remember the last time I spoke to one that held any weight - not because they aren't out there, but because people have better things to talk about than their religious beliefs.

[soul creator]

I wouldn't go that far, but I do believe that the harshness of tone by folks like Dawkins is ultimately counterproductive.

I wonder, is there any actual evidence of this? It's not like everyone was totally awesome and accepting of atheism until Dawkins came along. If anything, it was easier to ignore and pretend like it didn't exist. I would say at most, his "harshness of tone" is just making people think about/question things they didn't have to worry about before. And yes, sometimes that will make others angry, but that happens when any sort of dominant paradigm is challenged.

Somewhat anecdotal I guess, but yeah see, atheists want converts! just another religion!

[V_Arnold]

Once one accepts that God is the creator of the laws and the kickstarter of the current incarnation of our existence, I do not get how one can still manage to make the concept of burning in "Hell" for "eternity" a valid concept. It makes exactly zero sense.

And "the Bible says so" repeated an infinite times would not change that, for me at least.

[Log4Girlz]

Once one accepts that God is the creator of the laws and the kickstarter of the current incarnation of our existence, I do not get how one can still manage to make the concept of burning in "Hell" for "eternity" a valid concept. It makes exactly zero sense. And "the Bible says so" repeated an infinite times would not change that, for me at least.

One of the major roles of Religion is to give an excuse to fucking slaughter people. Oh, so you don't agree with me and my beliefs? Well, how convenient, this dusty book over here tells me I can kill you.

[BruiserBear]

I don't necessarily disagree with the bold. However, I personally think life is more interesting an aspect of the universe than the...universe. I don't think I'm alone in that. Further, since this is the only place that life exists that we are aware of, it may be very well be the most interesting. Assuming life exists elsewhere, we may very well be the most interesting species out of all hypothetically life sustaining planets out there.It's hard to tell since our imaginations have a hard time contemplating cultures much different than ours and we're likely never to meet them anyway to compare/contrast.

So if life exists on those other planets, do you think Jesus died on earth for their sins, or do you think God sent another son to those other planets to die for the sins of that planet?

I do not believe evolution was the start of life on this planet. Thanks to many helpful Youtube videos brought to my attention, I understand to a limited extent how some think that. What's wrong with volcanoes? I'm pretty sure we need them for something...but I'm not the science guy so what do I know?

It's quite apparent you're not a science guy. That's ultimately the problem for almost all religious people on this planet. The more people understand science, the less religious they tend to be. That's an interesting statistic, isn't it?

Evolution is not a debated topic amongst scientists on this planet. That's because there is so much evidence to support it, it's not even worth talking about anymore. Sort of like how at some point someone came up with the theory the earth was round, when everyone previously believed it was flat. But at some point the evidence became so overwhelmingly clear, that the earth was in fact round, no one ever talks about "oh, that theory about the earth being round". It's just an accepted fact.

The only people who still suggest evolution is "just a theory" are religious people with a desire to hope it's not true.

I'm sure if you had a brain tumor you'd be very happy if some very intelligent doctors could remove it for you, but would you even realize that science made that happen? That's what leads us to curing any disease or problem. Smart people test, and learn, and study, and eventually they find a way to fix things. An MRI machine was not created by a pastor, or even the pope. It was created by a scientifically minded human being. Think about that the next time you or someone you know is receiving medical care.

No one said he created the world for man. There's way more to the planet than people living on it. I haven't seen a verse yet that indicates God's only concern is people. That said, we are definitely compatible with this planet of ours and are the primary ruiners of it.And yet during all this time in far more primitive conditions, we remain and do as we please within the realms of possibility and tend to die of old age no less rather than the ravages of this hostile planet that doesn't like us. I don't think it's a valid point to complain about not being able to swim in lava when there's some nice solid ground next to it that causes no harm to us.

So you really do just give god a pass for anything, don't you? He's supposedly the creator of EVERYTHING. Even the devil excuse doesn't cut it. God created an angel, who turned on him? God is so powerless that a single angel can completely screw up god's plans? Do you know how absurd that sounds? The most powerful being in the universe, the being who created the entire universe, has "problems". Wouldn't the most powerful being EVER be beyond such things?

I think JGS fundamentally doesn't understand the core idea we try to communicate with this. God designed nature, the laws of physics everything from scratch no? He could write the laws any way he damn well pleases, he could make it so the only thing needed for the earth to be functional is for it to be filled with marshmallows. The fact that he created such a hostile world, where life has to struggle to inhabit so much of it - yet inherently WANTS to inhabit as much as possible - it kind of makes you think. It's not a clear cut sign that there is no God, but it is a clear cut sign that if he is around, he's either not omnipotent, not omniscient or just doesn't give THAT much of a shit about drowning us and burning us alive every once in a while. Or worse. Odds are? He's not around.

*golf clap*

[Game Analyst]

The fact that he created such a hostile world, where life has to struggle to inhabit so much of it - yet inherently WANTS to inhabit as much as possible - it kind of makes you think.

This is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that death and decay were brought in to the world when Adam and Eve sinned (Romans 5, Romans 8).

The world that God originally created was free of hostility, death, or anything else that we currently see on Earth.

[Lothar]

This is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that death and decay were brought in to the world when Adam and Eve sinned (Romans 5, Romans 8). The world that God originally created was free of hostility, death, or anything else that we currently see on Earth.

If such a being exists that wants there to be tsunamis to kill hundreds of thousands of people because two of their ancestors sinned, then that being is a monster not worth worshipping. If you had any morals at all, you should want to spit in his face rather than worship him.

[BruiserBear]

This is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that death and decay were brought in to the world when Adam and Eve sinned (Romans 5, Romans 8). The world that God originally created was free of hostility, death, or anything else that we currently see on Earth.

But how could the most powerful being in the universe let two humans on earth screw everything up like that?


Think about this for a second. This is supposedly the most powerful being in the universe! It's like the world's greatest architect building a 50 story building, and then a 25 mph wind blows it over. Would he still be considered the greatest architect in the world after that happened? I would think not. So why is god still so amazing when two random people eating some fruit fucks everything up royally? It's an absurd story.

[ivedoneyourmom]

This is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that death and decay were brought in to the world when Adam and Eve sinned (Romans 5, Romans 8). The world that God originally created was free of hostility, death, or anything else that we currently see on Earth.

I have a few simple questions for you that you should be able to answer if Adam and Eve existed. - I am assuming that you are talking about them existing 6000 years ago, right?

Where was Eden? When they left, where did they go? What 'race' was Adam and Eve? What language did they speak? I know they named all the animals, did they make like an encyclopedia to give to their kids, or had they yet to develop a written language, did God give them written language? How did they get along with other tribes of humans? Did God give Eve a cookbook, or did he and Adam just expect her to whip something up? Did they practice any sort of rituals, where did they get knowledge of rituals did God tell them how they liked them to do stuff, or did they make it up on their own? What known culture has rituals derived from theirs? What kind of snake was it in the story? How can a snake, one of the few animals without the hyoid speak? Was he a mutant, did he have one? Did he also have a language producing brain, or was the voice of a demon channeled into the snake? Why would they take advice from a snake? How can a snake give a good recommendation of foods they do not eat?

I've got a billion more questions for you, hopefully you can help me understand Adam and Eve as people, and why they chose to make decisions on my behalf for the immortal soul I am said to have but no one has proven exists.

[JGS]

So if life exists on those other planets, do you think Jesus died on earth for their sins, or do you think God sent another son to those other planets to die for the sins of that planet?

I don't think there is [intelligent] life on other planets, but that's purely opinion.

The only reason that God would need to send his son to another planet is if:
1. They are under the same conditions/expectation as we are
2. They messed that up

Otherwise, there's not much point for a perpetual sacrifice wheel.

It's quite apparent you're not a science guy. That's ultimately the problem for almost all religious people on this planet. The more people understand science, the less religious they tend to be. That's an interesting statistic, isn't it?

Honestly you don't seem like one either. however, I would venture to say that most people that fully rely on science to explain all aren't scientists. there would be a problem if the only ones that did believe scientists were scientists actually.

Evolution is not a debated topic amongst scientists on this planet. That's because there is so much evidence to support it, it's not even worth talking about anymore. Sort of like how at some point someone came up with the theory the earth was round, when everyone previously believed it was flat. But at some point the evidence became so overwhelmingly clear, that the earth was in fact round, no one ever talks about "oh, that theory about the earth being round". It's just an accepted fact.

I'm not debating evolution except by answering the question of whether it started life. I don't think science has the ability to show that no matter the number of Youtube videos that reflect it's possibility. If it does have the ability, it hasn't done so yet so I'm in a wait and see pattern. What a scentist believes when they don't have the data to back it up is a moot point for me.

I also never have indicated at all that I'm anti-science so I'm perfectly fine with someone using medicine to remove whatever ails me whether they're atheist or not. In fact, they better do their job right. When we get to the point that how life got here is as solid as the Earth being round, I'll be on board for that too. Rght now, I'll suffice with trusting the brain tumor being removed

So you really do just give god a pass for anything, don't you? He's supposedly the creator of EVERYTHING. Even the devil excuse doesn't cut it. God created an angel, who turned on him? God is so powerless that a single angel can completely screw up god's plans? Do you know how absurd that sounds? The most powerful being in the universe, the being who created the entire universe, has "problems". Wouldn't the most powerful being EVER be beyond such things?

Saying God doesn't do handholding or that we are not his sole concern is not giving a pass to him.

If such a being exists that wants there to be tsunamis to kill hundreds of thousands of people because two of their ancestors sinned, then that being is a monster not worth worshipping. If you had any morals at all, you should want to spit in his face rather than worship him.

The view is wrong, what stood out was apparently only people who hate God have morals now. Interesting.

Spitting in the face of God would just mean the spit would fall back on you.

[Kinitari]

I understand what you're communicating, I just don't agree to the degree you are making it. The world isn't particularly hostile. It's largely a peaceful place. Unfortunately If you play the odds, then the overwhelming majority of humans out there will be born, live, & die in relative peace if not for the the issues mankind places on themselves.

The world is plenty hostile enough! We got tsunamis, volcanos, earthquakes, tornadoes etc etc etc. That and animals that will kill and eat us given the opportunity - all these things speak of hostility toward life, specifically, human life. This makes sense in a world where we are nothing special, it makes a lot less sense in a world where God created us as important creatures and loves us/wants us to be happy.

Just as you said in your post, we inhabit the earth as much as we possibly can, so the process is working pretty well.

We also fight tooth and nail over the land that is liveable, and many people live in arid barely hospitable climates that can't support life because they have pretty much no choice. And the majority of the earth - like 85% of it, is not hospitable. I think it's even higher than that. We are doing our best, and we are 'going forth and multiplying' but we're going to run out of room at this rate. Give us more room to multiply in bro.

We are not under any obligation to fill the earth now. It's what we do because we like sex so much. We are not under any protections from God and so we run a very slight risk of the planet ripping us apart rather than the far more probable other way around. Absolute protections come with salvation and since there is no guarantee of that for people who don't want it, then they run a very small risk of dying before they croak naturally.

Bible versus aside that countradict this, we are hard wired to have sex and reproduce, like every other animal on this planet (except like, Pandas) - of course we want to fill the earth - we're 'made' that way.

As I've said WAY too many times in this very thread, if God is required to know all things at all times, he's Scripturally not omniscient so not sure why that part of the argument keeps popping up. We agree on that one.

Well, that immediately brings some of us into a 'level 2' argument, where we discuss the repercussions of a non-omniscient/omnipresent God. He can fuck up now, and maybe he has fucked up a lot in the past. And it introduces the possibility for more flaws, and eventually makes him less out as someone worth worship, and more like a really powerful jerk who insists we bend the knee no matter how much he accidentally (or intentionally) burns us to the ground.

We disagree on the whacky notion that just because God is omnipotent, he is somehow required to protect things he created as free standing, individual things. That's not something that anyone should have expected so it shouldn't be used as an indication of non-existence. It's not even a human expectation to consider in real life except to condemn God on. So I get what you're communicating- it's a wrong notion of what God is supposed to do for you.

If God -can- protect us all with his omnipotence, but decides he doesn't want to - he becomes less of a being worth my worship - the point of arguments like that is to remove the idea that some people paint of him as a loving, caring, thoughtful God. He is more of a jealous, easily angered God with a violent streak. Rarely does he go on about how much he loves people, mostly it's about how much we suck and disappoint him. Fuck you bro, I'm doing all right.

[Buckethead]

JGS serious question -- How do you rectify the supposed divine truth of the Bible with the influence by other sources (Zoroastrianism, Gilgamesh, polytheism) and more importantly other mythical figures (Appolonius, Horus, Mithra, etc.) to Jesus?

[BruiserBear]

I don't think there is [intelligent] life on other planets, but that's purely opinion.

I really hope you one day dig into cosmology, and what it can tell us right now about the universe.

Thousands of years ago we were certain the earth was flat. Now we know that was completely wrong.

Hundreds of years ago we thought the sun revolved around us, and we were the center of the universe. Now we know that was completely wrong.

20 years ago we weren't sure if there were planets circling other stars. Now we know for certain they do.

But you're still convinced there is no other intelligent life out there. If you truly learn how evolution works, and you apply that knowledge to what we know about the universe, it becomes nearly a certainty there is lots of life in the universe. When you have trillions of planets circling trillions of stars, the chances that there aren't literally thousands of other earths out there is almost nil, and it's nearly a certainty some of the planets have evolved long enough, like us, that people are typing on devices like us right now in various places throughout the universe.

If you're truly in search of the truth, and not just the "truth" you hope to find in the bible, learn exactly how evolution works, and all the evidence that we have to prove it's a factual account of how life began on this planet. It's almost like that scene from the Matrix. Do you want to know the truth, or would you just rather stay insulted from it forever? Because if you really want the truth, I can assure you it's there to be found, and it's not in the bible. It's in the knowledge of science. Just 5 years ago I was right where you are now, and I thought I had it all figured it out. Now I realize just how ignorant I was. I swear to you, from the bottom of my heart, that I don't say that to be cruel or put you down. I say that as someone who knows exactly where you're coming from. I do not have an ounce of dislike for you. I just see someone closed off to information that is readily available in this information age we live in.

You seem convinced evolution hasn't been proven, but that only tells me you really haven't learned enough about it. Because once you learn what we know about it, there isn't any doubt left.

[Buckethead]

Bruiser I get your point but to JGS's point morality and "the meaning of life" aren't immediately found in science.

Those are more philosophic questions.

I don't believe in God anymore but many of Jesus' teachings (whether they originated with him or not remains to be seen) are a part of my core philosophy. "A man's gotta have a code".

That being said validating one part of religion is true or valid or insightful that doesn't mean the whole thing is, something a lot of religious people can't seem to realize.

[JGS]

The world is plenty hostile enough! We got tsunamis, volcanos, earthquakes, tornadoes etc etc etc. That and animals that will kill and eat us given the opportunity - all these things speak of hostility toward life, specifically, human life. This makes sense in a world where we are nothing special, it makes a lot less sense in a world where God created us as important creatures and loves us/wants us to be happy.

Lions, tigers, & bears oh my!

There are dangers, for most those dangers of being attacked by the planet are remote.

I'm sorry you're not happy due to the paranoia of all the things you listed. I'm a pretty happy camper even with the knowedge that I could blow up in a horrible pile up on I-75 although highly unlikely.

We also fight tooth and nail over the land that is liveable, and many people live in arid barely hospitable climates that can't support life because they have pretty much no choice. And the majority of the earth - like 85% of it, is not hospitable. I think it's even higher than that. We are doing our best, and we are 'going forth and multiplying' but we're going to run out of room at this rate. Give us more room to multiply in bro Bible versus aside that countradict this, we are hard wired to have sex and reproduce, like every other animal on this planet (except like, Pandas) - of course we want to fill the earth - we're 'made' that way.

"It's in our genes to have uncontrollable unprotected sex!"

This is funny, because in the abortion threads, there is a distinct disconnect between sex and procreation. Like in those threads, the perceived extreme danger of an overwhelming perfectly natural occurrences (like living on on the planet Earth or having a kid) is kind of funny. People have been girding their loins and/or taking care of their brood for eons and irresponsibility is not a character trait.

We have plenty of liveable space right now and the reason there is a population problem at all is because of the issues we place on ourselves, not a limitation on the planet. When we run out of resources or space then that card can be played.

The planet allows for pretty basic and easy mobility. People migrate to better places all the time and others stay right where they are content with their location. The famine, poverty, poor living conditions, and lack of family planning are all a result of people not getting it right.

I know this argument doesn't count when you want God to do everything for you and he's so easy to blame, but making your own choices was always a part of the package and I have no reason to see it your way other than to simply agree with you- which would be dishonest. The only one time we are assured complete protection by God, but that a discussion for another day and thread.

Well, that immediately brings some of us into a 'level 2' argument, where we discuss the repercussions of a non-omniscient/omnipresent God. He can fuck up now, and maybe he has fucked up a lot in the past. And it introduces the possibility for more flaws, and eventually makes him less out as someone worth worship, and more like a really powerful jerk who insists we bend the knee no matter how much he accidentally (or intentionally) burns us to the ground.

This isn't really a level 2 argument. Our flaws have no reason to reflect poorly on God at all whether he is omnipotent/omniscient or not. It is a weakness to be enslaved by power or knowedge which seems to be the go to complaint about God. Case in point:

If God -can- protect us all with his omnipotence, but decides he doesn't want to - he becomes less of a being worth my worship - the point of arguments like that is to remove the idea that some people paint of him as a loving, caring, thoughtful God. He is more of a jealous, easily angered God with a violent streak. Rarely does he go on about how much he loves people, mostly it's about how much we suck and disappoint him. Fuck you bro, I'm doing all right.

This isn't about choice on God's side but ours. If God said do what you like and then reneged on that and did everything for us just because it makes us feel better (Until it doesn't), then how could God be considered honest, or trustworthy. Some may lie that better since it has a benefit toward the non-worshipper, but it would still be phony.

The argument seems to be that if God can do it, then he should do it. That argument is lame and smacks of being spoiled or more accurately wanting to be spoiled.

If your interest is in being babysat and then resenting the care provided, then it would not be surprising that God would definitely be a disappointment for you.

You seem convinced evolution hasn't been proven, but that only tells me you really haven't learned enough about it. Because once you learn what we know about it, there isn't any doubt left.

I'll try to address the rest but until you can stop accusing me of this, I'm not sure what the point of continuing the conversation would be. At what point did I say this?

Bruiser I get your point but to JGS's point morality and "the meaning of life" aren't immediately found in science.

I'm actually being more basic than that. I personally think life is pretty well defined scientifically and the meaning of it is self-defined unless we accept a larger philosophical view as I do with Christianity or even as defined by the State. I'm saying that for all the awe and wonder of the universe, life on the planet is pretty impressive too analytically. It takes no moral compass to realize that, but we may take it for granted.

If life is discovered on other planets (Since I could easily be wrong on that. Religion doesn't really address it at all), that wouldn't lessen the value of life on that planet or this one.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

The view is wrong, what stood out was apparently only people who hate God have morals now. Interesting.

"It's in our genes to have uncontrollable unprotected sex!"

You must be the King of Strawmen.

[Game Analyst]

If such a being exists that wants there to be tsunamis to kill hundreds of thousands of people because two of their ancestors sinned, then that being is a monster not worth worshipping. If you had any morals at all, you should want to spit in his face rather than worship him.

1. That monster, using your own words not mine, paid for all of your sins when his Son died on the cross. He paid your fine and offers you a pardon.
2. Everyone who dies continues to live on. This life is not all there is.
3. Satan is the god of this world (2 Cor 4:4). He is the one behind many of the things you are complaining about. Adam and Eve were the owners of the planet until they forfeited ownership of the planet to Satan.

But how could the most powerful being in the universe let two humans on earth screw everything up like that?

God gave them the planet. He warned them in advance that death would be the result of them eating from the tree. Adam and Eve decided that they wanted to live life apart from God by eating from the tree. They broke the relationship, that is what sin always does, and allowed evil/death to infect this world.

Where was Eden?

The Bible doesn't say.

When they left, where did they go?

The Bible doesn't say.

What 'race' was Adam and Eve?

They were sons and daughters of God.

What language did they speak?

I assume Hebrew, but I am not sure.

I know they named all the animals, did they make like an encyclopedia to give to their kids, or had they yet to develop a written language, did God give them written language?

The Bible doesn't say.

How did they get along with other tribes of humans?

The Bible doesn't say.

Did God give Eve a cookbook, or did he and Adam just expect her to whip something up?

The Bible doesn't say.

Did they practice any sort of rituals, where did they get knowledge of rituals did God tell them how they liked them to do stuff, or did they make it up on their own?

The Bible doesn't say.

What known culture has rituals derived from theirs?

From Adam and Eve?

What kind of snake was it in the story?

The Bible doesn't say.

How can a snake, one of the few animals without the hyoid speak?

The Bible doesn't say how Satan possessed the snake or what he did to it to make it speak.

Was he a mutant, did he have one?

The Bible doesn't say.

Did he also have a language producing brain, or was the voice of a demon channeled into the snake?

The Bible doesn't say.

Why would they take advice from a snake? How can a snake give a good recommendation of foods they do not eat?

I think it would help you to reread the story.

The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?” “Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. “It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’” “You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.” The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too. At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves.

I've got a billion more questions for you, hopefully you can help me understand Adam and Eve as people, and why they chose to make decisions on my behalf for the immortal soul I am said to have but no one has proven exists.

Each of us has inherited the virus of sin. No one is judged for what Adam and Eve did. Each of us is judged for the sins we commit in each of our lives.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

3. Satan is the god of this world (2 Cor 4:4). He is the one behind many of the things you are complaining about. Adam and Eve were the owners of the planet until they forfeited ownership of the planet to Satan.

So what do you think of the Christians that do think Tsunamis are God's Plan?

The Bible doesn't say.

That this is the answer to the majority of his questions, and you seem perfectly fine with that, is frightening.

[Game Analyst]

So what do you think of the Christians that do think Tsunamis are God's Plan?

A lot of our problems with blaming God come from not knowing God's Word very well.

That this is the answer to the majority of his questions, and you seem perfectly fine with that, is frightening.

God never says we are going to understand everything in this life.

Why focus on what we don't know, when what we do know can transform people and free them from the slavery that sin brings?

[HP_Wuvcraft]

A lot of our problems with blaming God come from not knowing God's Word very well.

But a lot of Christians don't blame God. They think Tsunamis are his plan.

Why focus on what we don't know, when what we do know can transform people and free them from the slavery that sin brings?

Ignorance is never a good thing.

Being willfully ignorant just because a book told you to be is even worse.

So, by your logic, all of my Christian friends that still question things, learn, and "believe in" science - even though they go to church - are invalid?

[Narcosis]

"Satan is the god of this world"

Now I don't believe that any of these characters are real, but looking at it from my standpoint, Satan/Lucifer is the hero of the Biblical story. Yahweh wanted a 1984 style society, where Adam and Eve were to not think, not question, not have a single shred of independent thought. Their whole existance was to be the subjected mind slaves of their creator, and the serpent (funny that Lucifer/Satan gets credited as being the serpent when the Bible itself never does explicitly say that and even some Jewish sects held that it was Lilith, but I'll go along with the modern mainstream Christian interpretation that the serpent was Lucifer) offered them the ability to think for themselves, to have a basic knowledge of morals. Somehow this is so objectionable to Yahweh that he deems it worthy of death. Somehow, having a creation that can manage to think for itself and not just follow in a slave fashion is so awful that he'd not only deem these two people as guilty of a capital crime, but that crime extends to every one of their offspring, who themselves have no choice or say in the matter. Just a "You're guilty because you exist, repent or burn" and sent into the mess.


We then get the rest of the Bible story filled with Yahweh commiting mass genocide, ordering murder, slavery and rape, and his death toll either directly or through his followers is at least a few million. Meanwhile you can count the number of atrocious acts Lucifer commits on one hand and have fingers left over, yet all he's ever accused of is the same thing Adam and Eve are: independent thought and an ability to convince others that there may be flaws with the admittedly proud and vengeful jealous dictator who throws temper tantrums over a little anal sex or a tower being contructed.

Then we get the New Testament, where apparently Yahweh has had some time to chill out and decides to funnel his rage into a split personality complex where 3 is one and 1 is 3, but there is no clear message as to whether it's actually 1 or actually 3 and he decides to sacrifice a human avatar of himself to his other personality, thus making thought crime the prime determination for the future as to whether you burn for eternity or get to live in the Eden 2.0 world as a slave designed solely for his praise and worship.

If any of these characters were real I'd rather have Lucifer over Yahweh/Jesus/Holy Ghost, because at least I have freedom of thought. At least I have an actual will of my own. To live as the much despised icon of the goat or the much praised icon of the obedient sheep. I say live as the goat FTW.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

If any of these characters were real I'd rather have Lucifer over Yahweh/Jesus/Holy Ghost, because at least I have freedom of thought. At least I have an actual will of my own. To live as the much despised icon of the goat or the much praised icon of the obedient sheep. I say live as the goat FTW.

I think you just gave him a heart attack.

[Buckethead]

Why focus on what we don't know... ?

I agree. Let's focus on what we know.

We know that most of the claims in the Bible never happened or never happened as reported. It is unreliable if not blatantly dishonest. It is not the truth.
We know that the Bible is a heavily edited volume, edited by different authors and interests looking to further their own political interests. It is not divinely inspired.
We know that The Bible was heavily influenced by other mythologies. It cannot be the one true way.
We know that religion has been the justification for some of the most egregious evils ever committed. Why cannot we judge a tree by its fruit as Jesus said?
We know that God commands genocide and infanticide and favors immoral people (Jacob for example). He is not good nor moral.

And if Satan (and God) were real and God were a good father, he would have removed the snake from the garden immediately.
Parents teach their children right from wrong and leave them to make their own decisions, not leave them in ignorance amidst temptation and deception.
Also the Bible tells us that "the road is narrow" meaning that a majority of his children will see eternal suffering.

At the end of the day, from the viewpoint of Christianity our entire purpose of existing is a means to an end. We're all merely players in God's game.
A game that he's rigged. The poison is more powerful than the cure and more abundant.

If that's your thing, have at it. Believe your enslavery and drain out your soul.

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.

[Dice]

1. That monster, using your own words not mine, paid for all of your sins when his Son died on the cross. He paid your fine and offers you a pardon.

Extortionists offer you this "protection" as well.

2. Everyone who dies continues to live on. This life is not all there is.

This is a poor counterpoint to the atrocity of killing. If all this were insignificant due to the presence of an afterlife, then there wouldn't be punishments for it.

3. Satan is the god of this world (2 Cor 4:4). He is the one behind many of the things you are complaining about. Adam and Eve were the owners of the planet until they forfeited ownership of the planet to Satan.

Isaiah 45:7 "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things."

Yet even if you want to say it's all Satan, you have to look at Job and see he gains clearance from God before doing anything. This puts God in the ethical dynamics of a mob boss.

God gave them the planet. He warned them in advance that death would be the result of them eating from the tree. Adam and Eve decided that they wanted to live life apart from God by eating from the tree. They broke the relationship, that is what sin always does, and allowed evil/death to infect this world.

Simply knowing disobedience creates a physical transformation of the very mechanics of the planet. Why did God set things up like that?

I assume Hebrew, but I am not sure.

Scripture says before the tower of babel fell all of mankind spoke one language. Hebrew is just the language used to describe the pre-babel events.

Each of us has inherited the virus of sin. No one is judged for what Adam and Eve did. Each of us is judged for the sins we commit in each of our lives.

Why did God make things in such a way that sin is passed down to the children?

[Erigu]

Because it's scientific.

But I thought God was all transcendental and shit? Is he just the latter, then?

Creations and inventions happen like this all the time.

Then again, human creators and inventors are... well, human. As a wise man once said: humans are just human.
God being transcendental, the origin/designer of everything, the dude who actually willed the universe into existence, that kinda puts him in a different league. What is it that is binding transcendental God?

We disagree on the whacky notion that just because God is omnipotent, he is somehow required to protect things he created as free standing, individual things.

Again, it's not even about "constantly protecting" the things he created (because doing so constantly would undoubtedly be tiresome to... an... all-powerful entity? yeah, well, let's say it would be!). Just about creating a nicer world in the first place. Wouldn't you expect a loving god to do that? And what was there to prevent him from doing that? What is there to prevent an omnipotent god from doing anything? Science, really? Science transcends God?

[ivedoneyourmom]

1. That monster, using your own words not mine, paid for all of your sins when his Son died on the cross. He paid your fine and offers you a pardon. 2. Everyone who dies continues to live on. This life is not all there is. 3. Satan is the god of this world (2 Cor 4:4). He is the one behind many of the things you are complaining about. Adam and Eve were the owners of the planet until they forfeited ownership of the planet to Satan. God gave them the planet. He warned them in advance that death would be the result of them eating from the tree. Adam and Eve decided that they wanted to live life apart from God by eating from the tree. They broke the relationship, that is what sin always does, and allowed evil/death to infect this world. The Bible doesn't say. The Bible doesn't say. x 10 They were sons and daughters of God. I assume Hebrew, but I am not sure. I think it would help you to reread the story. The serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did God really say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?” “Of course we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,” the woman replied. “It’s only the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God said, ‘You must not eat it or even touch it; if you do, you will die.’” “You won’t die!” the serpent replied to the woman. “God knows that your eyes will be opened as soon as you eat it, and you will be like God, knowing both good and evil.” The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too. At that moment their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they sewed fig leaves together to cover themselves. Each of us has inherited the virus of sin. No one is judged for what Adam and Eve did. Each of us is judged for the sins we commit in each of our lives.

Thank you for your answers. I guess my point kind of goes like this: If we can know things about this world, specifically the past, it should be possible to find most all those answers, or at least a relative understanding of the habitual life of Adam and Eve/tribe they formed.

We have good reason to believe that by 6000BP many of the materials they would use in their daily lives if located in the Near East would be made of durable materials such as copper or at least stone and clay. Locations for the most part just don't disappear either, we should be able to get close to the general area. We could also look at migration paths from Adam and Eves location either Eden or exile, and trace back the language like scientists have done with Proto-Indoeuropean.

I think if we start asking questions about Adam and Eve's life, and try to look for the answers, but are unable to find any, perhaps they, their tribe and their culture may have never existed, but instead be simply a creation story passed around the Levant and Near East. If it is only a creation story and Adam and Eve never existed, then what do we have to say for Original Sin?

[Matthew Gallant]

I think with the Avengers coming out today, and just for the sake of putting this thread back on track with evidence-based arguments, it's time to resurrect the Abrahamic religions were created by Loki thread.

[Lothar]

1. That monster, using your own words not mine, paid for all of your sins when his Son died on the cross. He paid your fine and offers you a pardon. 2. Everyone who dies continues to live on. This life is not all there is. 3. Satan is the god of this world (2 Cor 4:4). He is the one behind many of the things you are complaining about. Adam and Eve were the owners of the planet until they forfeited ownership of the planet to Satan.

Let me begin by saying that if all of those three points were valid, it wouldn't have an impact on the argument you were responding to whatsoever. If I save 20 people from a burning building and then I murder 20 people, I am a murderer. Nothing else I do in my life will erase that fact. Regardless of whatever good deeds I've done, I would deserve to be jailed for life.

But your points are horrible.

1. God is omnipotent. He doesn't have to do something negative in order to achieve a particular result that he wants. He doesn't have to sacrifice his son in order to forgive sins. He could have forgiven them without a sacrifice. But he WANTED to do it with a sacrifice. How sick is that? It's God's own rules that we need a pardon... for something he created us all with. It's like if I came up with the rule that you deserve death for having the screen name Game Analyst. Then I decided to kill my son to pardon you for that sin. Your logic is to go "Wow, you did that for me? You must be merciful. Let me worship you." which is just completely batshit insane.

2. In the past two major tsunamis, a very small percentage of those people were christian. For them, if the Christian God exists, it's a VERY bad thing that life continues on. Because their life now is eternal torture, thanks to this God you worship.

3. If Satan is God of the world, it's because God allows him to be. If God didn't make up the rule that Adam and Eve eating an apple would allow Satan to rule over their descendants, who the hell did?

Please think harder before making points. After you write something, ask yourself "Can my argument be destroyed by a mere mention of God's omnipotence?" That will save us both a lot of time. Thanks.

[Buckethead]

Had a talk with a Christian friend tonight.

It was sad seeing his passion as he was trying to "save me" and me just sitting there unaffected.
Then again poor arguments are unaffecting.

It was nice to know that he cares about me though.

[Log4Girlz]

A lot of our problems with blaming God come from not knowing God's Word very well.

Do you suggest I read the Quran?

[Feep]

Are you guys seriously trying to argue with Game Analyst? Dude was defending the "marry your daughter to her rapist" law awhile back.

Gotta let that one go.

[Log4Girlz]

Are you guys seriously trying to argue with Game Analyst? Dude was defending the "marry your daughter to her rapist" law awhile back. Gotta let that one go.

I wonder why his god didn't put undeniable evidence for his existence in the Quran, why not put like the trillionth digit of pi in there to prove its the one true religion.

[Feep]

I wonder why his god didn't put undeniable evidence for his existence in the Quran, why not put like the trillionth digit of pi in there to prove its the one true religion.

One in ten chance our religion is correct!

[Log4Girlz]

One in ten chance our religion is correct!

I just love the strange, twisted reasons why one's religion is the true one, god loves you, wants to see you in paradise...oh but doesn't give any religion any ACTUAL information proving it to be 100% true and if you pick the wrong one...oopes to hell you go...cuz HE LOVES YOU, that's why you must suffer hell.

[makingmusic476]

I've noticed JGS often claims that the god he believes in is omnipotent yet not omniscient.

Wouldn't omnipotence include omniscience? Are you omnipotent if you can't be omniscient? If you can choose to know anything, how could that not come into play when taking on the role of creator and coming up with a grand, elaborate plan?

JGS, in your view of reality, is god simply choosing to remain ignorant, thus allowing himself to create beings that fail to live up to his own standard and suffer needlessly on Earth, and often continue to suffering for an eternity after death? How does that remove his culpability for the end result of these actions?

[krioto]

Do you suggest I read the Quran?

I wouldn't try talking wit this games analyst guy - just reading the above - bat-shit insane...

[Game Analyst]

For those that are searching for truth, please take a look at the following site and go through the steps that the author offers.

Link to Site

You have likely heard that it is impossible to prove that God exists. You have heard wrong. Not only can the existence of God be proven, denying the proof undermines rational thought. No one needs proof that God exists, I simply offer these 8 steps to the logical proof of God's existence in addition to what you already know (and may be suppressing). If you are honest with what you truly believe, this website will lead you to the proof that God exists. This website offers logical proof, not persuasion.

Let me know what you think when you are done.

I will get to the other responses later today.

[The Technomancer]

For those that are searching for truth, please take a look at the following site and go through the steps that the author offers. Link to Site Let me know what you think when you are done. I will get to the other responses later today.

The author breaks down when I insist that absolute moral laws do not exist, even when he tries to get me by saying that molesting children is absolutely morally wrong. But its not. Its always absolutely always socially wrong, but there is nothing intrinsic in the fabric of the universe that makes it "wrong". The author acknowledges this but then still goes on to try and make the point that I do believe in absolute law anyway because he correctly assumes that I'm not a strict cultural relativist. But he doesn't seem to be able to grasp that I'm fully capable of saying that an action is socially right or wrong based on the amount of harm or benefit it creates for the largest number of people, which isn't specific to any culture while also still not being universally intrinsic. There's still nothing deeper then biology going on.