[LCGeek]

I know a few people who believe in god but no particular religion. I think it's a way for them to still partly believe in something they grew up with but do not follow. I had a former coworker tell me that he believes in god but no religion. He did this because he thought he had a better chance of getting into heaven.

Or it could be that those that study come to conclusion that our ancestors knew something great and that predators and psychopaths took over for their own advantage.

I do not believe in GOD except as enslavement tool. The creator is not god nor does it ever need religion.

[Gaborn]

I'm an agnostic leaning atheist but frankly I don't see the point to the discussion for the most part. There is only one issue where a person's spiritual beliefs could be relevant to the average person and that is with the curricula of the science classroom so let me state clearly that since creationism (AKA "intelligent design") is built on the premise of a non-scientific concept (that God exists) it's not a scientific endeavor and should not be taught in the science classroom.

As for the rest of it? God may or may not exist but until and unless an all powerful supernatural being comes down and makes it's presence known assuming that a religious tradition is superior merely because (in all likelihood) that's the culture you were raised in seems a bit arrogant.

[RegularCitizen]

If you don't believe in Jesus you're not looking hard enough at the questions.

[Sharp]

If you don't believe in Jesus you're not looking hard enough at the questions.

What does this mean exactly? What questions? What is this statement intended to prove?

FWIW I certainly believe that Jesus or a similar person existed. That he was the "son of God," though, seems rather unlikely.

[Marius_]

If you don't believe in Jesus you're not looking hard enough at the questions.

Do tell

[elrechazado]

If you don't believe in Jesus you're not looking hard enough at the questions.

These kinds of throwaways are why people get so frustrated and lash out at the theists. As a theist myself, I don't think you are being very helpful with this kind of random post with zero explanation.

[mt1200]

This thread has too much ban potential...

/leaves

[3N16MA]

If you don't believe in Jesus you're not looking hard enough at the questions.

How about you be a good Christian and point the people who want to know more in the right direction.

[GTP_Daverytimes]

Skimmed through it. People had far more patience than I would've, at least until you starting copy/pasting walls of text. That never goes over well here.

Don't skimme through it, if you want to make a reply on it Read through it. It will take you about 30 minutes but am sure it will be worthwhile.

[blame space]

that post is incredible.

the questions. look harder at them .. suddenly..

Jesus appears.

[HephalumpsAndWoozles]

Discussing the existence of God is one thing, but believers tend to follow religions, and those religions have so much bullshit baggage added on its ridiculous.

Don't skimme through it, if you want to make a reply on it Read through it. It will take you about 30 minutes but am sure it will be worthwhile.

Btw, want to read your own thread and answer my question (if you can)?

[Cyan]

that post is incredible. the questions. look harder at them .. suddenly.. Jesus appears.

[ConfusingJazz]

If you don't believe in Jesus you're not looking hard enough at the questions.

If you believe in Jesus, you're not looking hard enough for the answers.

JUDO-ED!

[KJTB]

Hitler was an atheist, Jesus was a theist. That tells you everything you need to know.

You are a goddamn moron.

[Pixel Pete]

If you don't believe in Jesus you're not looking hard enough at the questions.

I looked good and hard, and I found Atheism. So be careful with that particular piece of advice.

[Air]

And? Gods are a "thing." If someone says that there are powerful human-like entities beyond our perception, with fantastic powers we can't explain, that person is positing the existence of a metric buttload of things. That would normally put the burden of proof on them, no? The null hypothesis is fine and dandy, as far as science is concerned, as we currently don't have and "god-shaped holes" in any major fields of study.

I can link to wikipedia to: Russel's teapot. The burden of proof lies upon theists because they are the ones making the claim. Atheists, for the most part, simply lack a belief which is not a claim.

Fair enough, I had something to say, but I lost my thought. While I believe that it should be held on an argument-by-argument basis. Maybe generally speaking, in the way a lot of people view God, than the burden of proof would be on them.

Unfortunately for me, I'm left unsatisfied with where I left the argument (I had a counter, but it so easily slipped my mind).

Religion: The root of all fucked in the world

Land and Money

[Sharp]

I just checked out GTP_Daverytimes's thread. First quote:

The Bible was able to predict the rise of 7 world powers (and the fall of 6 world powers as of now) before gods kingdom arrives. The Anglo-american world power is the 7th and final world power the world will see (when it will come to an end no one knows). No other text contains the amount of predictions and their fulfillment as much as the bible do (bible said the world was round, scientist said it was flat. bible says that humans are created, scientist says humans evolved. Bible says that a being created the earth, scientist say we sprouted from nothing. the bible listed the signs of the last days, each of those signs is occurring)

...Forgive me if I don't read the rest of the thread after that. This is conspiracy theory level nonsense.

[HephalumpsAndWoozles]

I just checked out GTP_Daverytimes's thread. First quote: ...Forgive me if I don't read the rest of the thread after that. This is conspiracy theory level nonsense.

I came to the same conclusion...

He did ask someone to "Define trolling" later in the thread though, so...

[GTP_Daverytimes]

I just checked out GTP_Daverytimes's thread. First quote: ...Forgive me if I don't read the rest of the thread after that. This is conspiracy theory level nonsense.

Take my advice and read the thread before making any comment, that way i actually know that the person am arguing with can back up their statement with knowledge of my statements.

I came to the same conclusion... He did ask someone to "Define trolling" later in the thread though, so...

You my friend has made quite an effort so i will answer, I believe in God because i can. What about you?

[Sharp]

Take my advice and read the thread before making any comment, that way i actually know that the person am arguing with can back up their statement with knowledge of my statements.

Did you completely refute every substantial claim you made in the post I quoted? If you did not, there's no need to read further because you're not arguing from evidence.

[Pixel Pete]

Religion: The root of all fucked in the world

I actually think it's a bit baser than that. Blind faith is the real problem, and it's a blight on human progress.

[GTP_Daverytimes]

Did you completely refute every substantial claim you made in the post I quoted? If you did not, there's no need to read further because you're not arguing from evidence.

Absolutely not, and if that's the case drop it.

[QP3]

I believe in a higher spirit/power on the personal level. I do not believe that there is any single all mighty being, nor do I believe that you need to attend a church or similar place to contact or please a higher being.

[AMUSIX]

I just checked out GTP_Daverytimes's thread. First quote: ...Forgive me if I don't read the rest of the thread after that. This is conspiracy theory level nonsense.

I read through his full posts in that thread...and it's even worse than the bit you quoted. Honestly, even in those few sentences, there is so much wrong information and stretching to fulfill needs that any possibly valid arguments are immediately buried under nonsense.


The way I see it is this:

Everyone is welcome to believe whatever they want...but belief without proof (as in the case of spirituality and, by extension, religion) is very much a personal thing. I can ask someone why they believe in God, and get a valid answer. However, that person cannot then tell me why I should believe in God. This makes the whole concept of Religion as an evangelical tool absurd.

Take almost any story in the Bible, remove it from its source, and it becomes truly ridiculous. Heck, even getting past the absurdity of the physical, the motives behind the stories are just as laughable. Moses and the tablets, for instance...if we assume God is real, and that He wanted to deliver a set of rules by which man should live life, why then, on a planet of 57.5 million square miles of land, does he deliver these iron-clad rules to a single man in private? Is he really hoping for a world-wide game of telephone to go smoothly?

[SD-Ness]

This thread is pointless. I'm an atheist but I appreciate certain aspects of religion. At one point you just realize that if you're not willing to compromise this atheism versus theism debate is fucking endless. If you're extreme on either side, you're not going to give in. But the thing is you're speaking different languages to each other and looking at things totally different.

Nonetheless,

[HephalumpsAndWoozles]

Take my advice and read the thread before making any comment, that way i actually know that the person am arguing with can back up their statement with knowledge of my statements. You my friend has made quite an effort so i will answer, I believe in God because i can. What about you?

Good for you. But I would argue "just because you can" is not really a good base for any beliefs.

I dont believe, but I dont rule out the possibility. A perfectly "logical" standpoint from my point of view.

Your whole part "bible said, scientist said" is laughably bad.

[Pixel Pete]

<3 Christopher Hitchens, his quote of forever:

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

[brucewaynegretzky]

Don't skimme through it, if you want to make a reply on it Read through it. It will take you about 30 minutes but am sure it will be worthwhile.

No it won't.

[astroturfing]

I find it funny how some atheists don't want to hear about god or anyone preach religion yet they preach atheism. It would be better if both side believed whatever they want and shut up.

it's funny eh? don't you think that maybe the fact that quite a lot of atheists have had to listen to religious nonsense ever since they were little has something to do with it? being baptized as a defenseless baby.. pressured into Jesus camps... having nightmares about hell (i did constantly when i was 6-8), and so on. when i was younger and didn't have the guts to defend my own beliefs and identity, i along with my friends were pressured to kneel in front of a big ass cross and recite things from the Bible we of course didn't believe in... made me feel like crap and caused permanent damage to my self-respect. i still cannot believe i didn't defend myself or my friends and went along with the brainwashing :(

so yeah i'm bitter as fuck, and i don't think it's my fault. countless irresponsible religious fuckheads from teachers to priests to family acquaintances tried to mess with my young, fragile not-fully-developed brain... and i can't forgive that.

every opportunity i get i will try to make a Christian doubt his/her beliefs. it's mostly futile i know, but even if ONE person during my entire life ends up doubting, it's worth it IMO. and i know for a fact that i've done it already so yay me.

edit: oh and that latter part of your post... the problem is, why would Christians shut up about their beliefs? their damn holy book TELLS them to spread the religion! that's the whole point of Christianity, to spread! so we have a problem.

[Air]

This thread is pointless. I'm an atheist but I appreciate certain aspects of religion. At one point you just realize that if you're not willing to compromise this atheism versus theism debate is fucking endless. If you're extreme on either side, you're not going to give in. But the thing is you're speaking different languages to each other and looking at things totally different. Nonetheless,

As a believer I agree. Especially on the perspective issue. The only thing I would hope is that these topics bring about at least some understanding between familiar posters, so the threads aren't always a time bomb waiting to go off. Its ok to believe (or don't believe) what you want guys,but a level head will always make the topic better for everyone.

EDIT: A theist can easily come off as Athiest, I didn't want to confuse anybody.

[RegularCitizen]

I looked good and hard, and I found Atheism. So be careful with that particular piece of advice.

Take off your sunglasses.

[jay]

Take off your sunglasses.

Take out your contacts.

[Marius_]

Take out your contacts.

more like get some

[RegularCitizen]

more like get some

You're correct. I don't wear contacts.

[Pixel Pete]

Take off your sunglasses.

I was standing in front of banks of LED studio lights, the glasses stay on.

[jay]

more like get some

Contacts in this case are obviously symbolic for social and familial conditioning. God.

[RegularCitizen]

What does that mean?

[Knox]

What does that mean?

What does anything you're saying mean?

[kunu]

This thread is pointless. I'm an atheist but I appreciate certain aspects of religion. At one point you just realize that if you're not willing to compromise this atheism versus theism debate is fucking endless. If you're extreme on either side, you're not going to give in. But the thing is you're speaking different languages to each other and looking at things totally different.

I agree with this. As an atheist, I've realized the hard way that when it comes to people on the other side of the opinion, their beliefs aren't very easily changed. I've accepted this fact, and I enjoy healthy discussions about it; but when there are two extremes in the debate, it becomes destructive and frustrating for both sides.

[bytesized]

For me this is not a theme for discussion really. No matter how much we argue believers will keep fighting their crisis of faith and atheist will keep being awesome and beautiful superior master race people.

[Sharp]

Stop feeding RegularCitizen, guys. He trollin'.

[nomis]

There is no debate to make. Belief without physical evidence is the most bone headed and hypocritical invention the human mind has ever conceived. No religious person would ever want someone's "faith" in their guilt to be taken as incontrovertible in court, why should that standard change when it comes to the interpretation of our universe?

No theist in the world today has faith in their prophets or god. They have faith in the word of their parents, and their parent's parents, et cetera. For someone to say they have "faith in god" and therefore no evidence is needed, is dense and banal in the highest degree. The only difference between God and Santa Claus is that eventually their parents told them one didn't exist, and let the other one remain a part of their child's permanent world view. Both are fictional entities who's existence is often taken by children to be sacrosanct.

[Sharp]

For me this is not a theme for discussion really. No matter how much we argue believers will keep fighting their crisis of faith and atheist will keep being awesome and beautiful superior master race people.

Now this I think I can safely dispute. Anyone want to petition for a grant to analyze relative beauty between athiests and theists?

[GTP_Daverytimes]

Good for you. But I would argue "just because you can" is not really a good base for any beliefs. I dont believe, but I dont rule out the possibility. A perfectly "logical" standpoint from my point of view.

You'r standpoint is perfectly OK, one thing i don't do is insult others beliefs. I will argue why i belief what i do but i would not insult another persons beliefs. The problem i see is that most atheist has no regard for religion and that's something i always hate. If a person prides themselves that they believe in nothing then that's all good and dandy but most atheist will go the extra mile by insulting the religion (This goes for both ways to some degree).

No it won't.

Perfectly OK with me, as far as you don't start an argument based on a thread you haven't read am perfectly fine.

it's funny eh? don't you think that maybe the fact that quite a lot of atheists have had to listen to religious nonsense ever since they were little has something to do with it? being baptized as a defenseless baby.. pressured into Jesus camps... having nightmares about hell (i did constantly when i was 6-8), and so on. when i was younger and didn't have the guts to defend my own beliefs and identity, i along with my friends were pressured to kneel in front of a big ass cross and recite things from the Bible we of course didn't believe in... made me feel like crap and caused permanent damage to my self-respect. i still cannot believe i didn't defend myself or my friends and went along with the brainwashing :( so yeah i'm bitter as fuck, and i don't think it's my fault. countless irresponsible religious fuckheads from teachers to priests to family acquaintances tried to mess with my young, fragile not-fully-developed brain... and i can't forgive that. every opportunity i get i will try to make a Christian doubt his/her beliefs. it's mostly futile i know, but even if ONE person during my entire life ends up doubting, it's worth it IMO. and i know for a fact that i've done it already so yay me.

Don't blame Christians blame the Catholic church for forcing you to be an alter boy and kneeling in front of big ass crosses. Every Christian group are not the Catholic church and like i said earlier it pains me to see all these groups of Christians grouped under one banner when their are some serious disparities in beliefs between them.

The bolded is very funny.

[TaeOH]

I can link to wikipedia to: Russel's teapot. The burden of proof lies upon theists because they are the ones making the claim. Atheists, for the most part, simply lack a belief which is not a claim.

Seems to me that most atheist's on this forum are making a claim, and that claim is that there is nothing other than the natural. And that proof is only available through natural science. Not science mind you, as atheists have redefined what that actually means. Science does not stand in opposition to religion or the super natural, only naturalists have been.

The burden of proof lies solely with the one making the claim. I believe in God, though I do not make the claim that God exists. It is the atheist/naturalist who makes the claim that God does not exist because God cannot be tested by natural science.

[SD-Ness]

As a theist I agree. Especially on the perspective issue. The only thing I would hope is that these topics bring about at least some understanding between familiar posters, so the threads aren't always a time bomb waiting to go off. Its ok to believe (or don't believe) what you want guys,but a level head will always make the topic better for everyone.

Definitely. I think the levelheaded people on both sides have a lot on which to agree. Not everything in life has to be a ferocious debate. These issues are far too important to reduce to childish, spiteful flaming.

As an atheist, I'm somewhat of a realist. I don't see a reason to believe in a theism. I think science has eclipsed religion as far as explaining the world, etc. (which is one of the original, if not the original, point of religion). So as some sort of explanation for the world, religion is pointless to me.

And I think a lot of this endless debating is based around this issue here. But atheists and theists have contrary epistemological interpretations that cannot be reconciled. They are mutually exclusive.

But as a mature, calm, levelheaded person, there is a lot about religion I can appreciate. At the end of the day, if you accept an atheist epistemology (that there is no "god" who created the universe and no point to life), you're still going to be alone. This is what religion provides: community, companionship, ceremony, ritual, tradition. There is nothing wrong with these things -- even to an atheist. Buddhism, for example, is not really a theist religion but one of its most important components is the sangha, which is the spiritual community.

Likewise, atheists often take issue with Christianity or Roman Catholicism. And there are many things wrong, in my opinion, with these institutions. But there is nothing wrong with the message of Jesus. He was a good man. He taught some things that were very good. He deserves to be emulated, I think. In a way, I think of myself as an atheistic follower of Christ.

[Tenck]

I'm not sure what I believe. I really hope there is a god and heaven but the older I get and the more I think about it, the more doubtful I become.

It's called wisdom


Yeah I went there >:o

[Sharp]

There is no debate to make. Belief without physical evidence is the most bone headed and hypocritical invention the human mind has ever conceived. No religious person would ever want someone's "faith" in their guilt to be taken as incontrovertible in court, why should that standard change when it comes to the interpretation of our universe?

We all do this to some extent. I doubt most of those on this forum have the necessary scientific expertise to be able to replicate experiments that, e.g., prove the speed of light to be constant, nor even for much simpler Newtonian statements about how gravity works between celestial objects. In order for society to advance, we must take certain things at face value. That said, I'd much rather rely on things that have been independently verified hundreds or thousands of times by scientists following a method I understand and documenting their results than on a book written thousands of years ago by a number of different writers who do not appear to have had formal training of any sort.

GTP_Daverytimes, against my better judgment I did go on and read the thread. You repeatedly misunderstand, twist, or just plain lie about facts in order to fit your bizarre theories. Let's take just one example, that of Columbus. The reason people were reluctant to fund Columbus was not that they felt he would fall off the face of the earth, but that there were competing measurements for the Earth's circumference and they did not trust Columbus's. Since Columbus was in fact using an inaccurate measurement, it's a good thing that America was in the way or his ship would never have returned to Europe.

[Spire]

that post is incredible. the questions. look harder at them .. suddenly.. Jesus appears.

It's just like a 3D Magic Eye book!



You just have to stare at the questions until your eyes cross and you get a headache and then an image of Jesus riding a dinosaur appears.

[Pixel Pete]

I agree with this. As an atheist, I've realized the hard way that when it comes to people on the other side of the opinion, their beliefs aren't very easily changed. I've accepted this fact, and I enjoy healthy discussions about it; but when there are two extremes in the debate, it becomes destructive and frustrating for both sides.

It's that frustration which is taking it's toll on intellectual activists, and understandably so. I don't personally go around discussing religion or atheism unless the topic is raised by an external source, and it takes patience when you have the intent to change people. Often more patience than most people have.

General rule of thumb is (and nobody is exempt), don't be a dick
I won't ever tell people what to think or believe. I might state mine, and why, but opinions and personal stances are just that.

People shouldn't get offended by differing stances on the nature of the universe, as it's stupendously counter-productive. Topics like this are a hotbed of kneejerk reactions. All it takes is for one person to be offended at the word 'ignorance' (which isn't inherently an insulting word) and the whole thing spirals down into pointless ad hominems attacks and strawmen.

Unfortunately, parties from both sides have a tendency to go into the discussion with zero intent to shift from their perspective, and I'm terribly guilty of this also. Change is slow.

But it has happened. My stance has loosened somewhat. I don't believe in a god, but I'm not against the idea. I even find the idea of a god somewhat exciting, romantic in the classical sense.
But as Carl Sagan said, "For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."