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Co-Director of Dishonored: 'Call of Duty makes gamers stupid'

darkpaladinmfc said:
Good sales doesn't mean a good game...

It usually means it was good to someone. I can't think of a great selling game that people didn't enjoy.

If it's a mistranslated screw up, fine. But I don't think games make us "dumber" to where we can't react to other games or even play them coherently. That is the argument I disagree with.

Playing Peggle doesn't make me bad at The Witcher.
 

Reuenthal

Banned
The COD games are good games. Not my favorites or the best games in my opinion but they are all good games. Also multiplayer experience can make a merely good game into something more grand, so I might be underrating them.
 

erragal

Member
flyinpiranha said:
See, here's the problem ... you are assuming gaming (and all games within) are some complicated medium where if we don't hone our skills on the more difficult games we don't stand a chance.

I'm not arguing what COD is, I'm arguing against his theory of what it makes us.

I mean, do you honestly think Dishonored (or ANY game for that matter) is so difficult where playing Peggle or COD or even a racing game is going to make these decisions so difficult we'll never get past the first level?

Your last paragraph is just obvious. Of course if people aren't enjoying it or it's different from what they like they will react negatively. Expectations are a completely different beast. If he chooses to advertise Dishonored like a shooter-fest then yeah, I hope people react negatively when it's not. But who are these people going into this game expecting it to be COD when nothing has been advertised (for what I've seen) to reinforce this?

I mean honestly, what does the existence of one game hinder in his? Nothing, except competition.

I'm sure you're a smart person, is it too much to have a little faith in the gaming community to the extent where they can actually *gasp* play different games?

The way I read that is that if I enjoy "stupid" games I won't be able to understand his. That's just fucking stupid.


It's not about the difficulty or skill level at all. Obviously almost no games are challenging to play at a basic level; I feel like you're obsessing over the use of the word 'stupid' and taking it too literally for a translated interview.

Maybe you overestimate the average (Not core) gaming community/critical press? People will see that you -can- shoot, try the game out and be turned off by the lack of handholding. Those people don't buy the game and then you don't get a larger budget to make a more ambitious/detailed game that fits your vision even better. That's what this is all about.

I won't disagree that part of it IS competition. There's still NOTHING that says that people are actually stupid because they choose to play COD. It's meant to be a criticism of the game design being dumbed down and decreasing the players analytical/reaction skills; IE the game itself makes them less competent at playing HIS games. Maybe he feels he has to make his game less difficult so he can be successful; don't you find that to be a problem at all? If the general skill level of players is lower it's difficult to make games that require more demanding skillsets while still appealing to people that enjoy fast-paced fluid first-person games.


It's a bit of a tangent but my best example of this would be complex raid encounters in MMO games. They've become infinitely more complex mechanically since the Everquest days and yet more people engage in that activity than ever before; by progressing the average skill levels of players in the genre you've increased the cap of difficulty/complexity you can design an element thus giving you improved creativity and raise the expectations you can have for players.
 

Curufinwe

Member
bob_arctor said:
I'm also surprised Vanquish hasn't been mentioned yet. That's a game whose commercial failure made me hate everyone that found it too much to handle. It's an irrational hate of course, replete with "You're playing it wrong!!" but at least it's learning curve lends some credence to the inept gamer stereotype.

Have you read the Destructoid review? It's that in full effect.
 
Neuromancer said:
Presumably, it makes you think a little.

So by that line of argumentation, Cod makes you unlearn your cognitive capabilities?

So everyone watching Transformers or Captain America and enjoying them walked out the theater with a lower IQ?

This dude has to realize that people want vastly different things out of entertainment, and that those preferences are in no way form or shape an indication for intelligence.
 

Nizz

Member
Hope for the devs this doesn't come back to bite him in the ass. I really don't know much about Dishonored truthfully. But if it brings something new/different to the FPS table I'm all for it. I love playing COD/Battlefield: BC but I also enjoyed Crysis 2 which gave you a little more room to play around in. And Portal 2 is one of my most favorite games this year.

I think there's plenty of room in this world for different types of games. If Dishonored is sort of like Crysis 2 or Far Cry 2, games that gave you a little more control in how you wanted to play then I'm fine with that.
 
erragal said:
It's not about the difficulty or skill level at all. Obviously almost no games are challenging to play at a basic level; I feel like you're obsessing over the use of the word 'stupid' and taking it too literally for a translated interview.

Maybe you overestimate the average (Not core) gaming community/critical press? People will see that you -can- shoot, try the game out and be turned off by the lack of handholding. Those people don't buy the game and then you don't get a larger budget to make a more ambitious/detailed game that fits your vision even better. That's what this is all about.

I won't disagree that part of it IS competition. There's still NOTHING that says that people are actually stupid because they choose to play COD. It's meant to be a criticism of the game design being dumbed down and decreasing the players analytical/reaction skills; IE the game itself makes them less competent at playing HIS games. Maybe he feels he has to make his game less difficult so he can be successful; don't you find that to be a problem at all? If the general skill level of players is lower it's difficult to make games that require more demanding skillsets while still appealing to people that enjoy fast-paced fluid first-person games.


It's a bit of a tangent but my best example of this would be complex raid encounters in MMO games. They've become infinitely more complex mechanically since the Everquest days and yet more people engage in that activity than ever before; by progressing the average skill levels of players in the genre you've increased the cap of difficulty/complexity you can design an element thus giving you improved creativity and raise the expectations you can have for players.

I just don't see it. "Dumb" games have been made since gaming was invented, it doesn't detract from the fact "smart" games are being made. ME2 dumbed down? I didn't think so, I think they took out an archaic item inventory that can be streamlined more efficiently. The game itself was still a lot of fun and ME1 was never "complicated" in the first place.

It sounds like he's making excuses for why his game won't sell. Did Oblivion's complications make it so Fallout 3 didn't sell? Is the fact that Fallout 3 has a ton of things to do and explore along with an archaic inventory system stop people from wanting Skyrim?

I mean, I get what you're saying, but I don't see the correlation. People keep talking about the "dudebro" of gaming but it's been fairly easy for me to avoid that with my game selection.

The existence of easy games doesn't make his game more complicated and it won't hinder people's experience if it's actually a good game.


darkpaladinmfc said:
People enjoying it doesn't make it good.

Actually, yes it does. It doesn't make it good for you, but it does for them. One man's trash is another man's treasure and all that.
 

thetrin

Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Enosh said:
I am sure as hell not buying this game now
I'm definitely going to buy this game now. I was on the fence, but anyone that calls COD players idiots is a winner in my book.
 

.la1n

Member
Stumpokapow said:
Boy I wish he had made his point better, because he's not wrong but the words he picked are just going to immediately turn people off.


I agree. He is trying to say that the hand holding and linear experiences that most games offer are not what the gaming world needs. I know for me I became a gamer because of the challenges and multiple ways I could complete objectives. Generation and generation of games I became more impressed then all of a sudden it seemed out of nowhere the market was flooded with games that were afraid to be "too hard" or require too much puzzle solving.
 

BobsRevenge

I do not avoid women, GAF, but I do deny them my essence.
tbh, playing a lot of CoD in the absence of intellectually stimulating activities probably would make you more dumb. The gameplay is all reflex with an extensive progression system of predictable operant conditioning.

The design is very smart, but it relies on the most simple mechanisms of human motivation and provides little of value beyond the game itself. Though, it is useful to socialize with friends over the internet since it's so popular.

At the very least you can see his point of inexperienced players who mainly play CoD wouldn't be well adapted to playing his game, and probably wouldn't be interested in buying it.
 
_Alkaline_ said:
And was that your first run through the game?
No, not even a chance. But it's not like I play it every year.
Now, imagine people more skilled and dedicated than I am, and you will see some awesome stuff in there.
Going to the opposite pole. People that have barely played it, still could finish the game in like... 15 minutes.
 

radionerd

Neo Member
gutter_trash said:
I decidly quit MW1 on the first tanker stage because my NPC allies were taking out all the tangos for me.. I got angry and turned off the game and never played a COD since because I hate it when a shooter decides that I am being too cautious and forces my NPC allies to kill all enemies


So you quit before the first level was over? I don't like COD single player at all but that's a pretty unfair amount of time to play something and completely write it off. I'm pretty burned out by COD but I bet if I had never played a COD and you put MW2/BLOPS in front of me I would think it was pretty incredible.
 

Orayn

Member
I understand what he's trying to say about CoD's bland, one-dimensional nature, but this is a blunt, "SHOTS FIRED!" way for him to say it. That aside, I still have very high hopes for Dishonored. Arkane has a champion pedigree and I think they'll deliver in a big way.
 
iKeepPlaying said:
Going to the opposite pole. People that have barely played it, still could finish the game in like... 15 minutes.
When I get home, I'll have my wife play it and see how long it takes her to beat it. My suspicion? It'll take more than fifteen minutes.

What am I getting at? You and the people you know and talk to online about games are not representative of the general gaming public.
 

erragal

Member
flyinpiranha said:
I just don't see it. "Dumb" games have been made since gaming was invented, it doesn't detract from the fact "smart" games are being made. ME2 dumbed down? I didn't think so, I think they took out an archaic item inventory that can be streamlined more efficiently. The game itself was still a lot of fun and ME1 was never "complicated" in the first place.

It sounds like he's making excuses for why his game won't sell. Did Oblivion's complications make it so Fallout 3 didn't sell? Is the fact that Fallout 3 has a ton of things to do and explore along with an archaic inventory system stop people from wanting Skyrim?

I mean, I get what you're saying, but I don't see the correlation. People keep talking about the "dudebro" of gaming but it's been fairly easy for me to avoid that with my game selection.

The existence of easy games doesn't make his game more complicated and it won't hinder people's experience if it's actually a good game.

This is a problem that's become a bit more prevalent with the advent of high definition art assets. If you want to make a 3D game with contemporary quality graphics you need to be able to guarentee a certain amount of profit; if your market segment is too small to guarentee that then you could see the elimination of whole genres of games. The success of Human Revolution is going to be really interesting; I feel like it could be a major milestone either positive or negative within the industry.

I don't disagree with you about ME 2 (Streamlining isn't dumbed down and the actual mechanical affects of your skill choices are more meaningful than the first game; loss of RPG elements is completely overstated).

Bringing up Bethesda's games is an interesting point; is there actually an overlap between the open-world exploration RPG crowd (Where there's LOTS of content but not necessarily lots of ways to resolve conflicts) and the more creativity-minded encounter design that Arkane favors. I hope so but I can't say they're in the same genre; there are clearly different design goals between the games.

Agreed that there's no sense in complaining about the existence of these games, it's more people's concerns about the influence they have on industry-wide game design...something very obvious just with the publishers intense search for mega-hits rather than reasonably budgeted profitable games.
 
Steve Youngblood said:
When I get home, I'll have my wife play it and see how long it takes her to beat it. My suspicion? It'll take more than fifteen minutes.

What am I getting at? You and the people you know and talk to online about games are not representative of the general gaming public.

My mom beat SMB in like 30 minutes. And she still shakes the controller when she jumps. God knows how she can play like that.
Fun fact, aside SMB, she plays only Tumble and Bejewled (or something like that).
 

VVIS

Neo Member
Black Ops SP sucked because of its frantic, ADD-style story telling. My GOD will this interrogator just STFU??

Game basically played like a torture device -

YELL AT PLAYER - funnel funnel funnel Cutscene - YELL AT PLAYER - Cutscene - funnel funnel funnel - YELL AT PLAYER.

edit: at least in MW1 I felt like a badass, part of the crew even if I was the fuckin new guy.
 

Riposte

Member
I'm annoyed that you think you or your mom beating SMB with a hidden cheat FAQ several decades later that teaches how to avoid 90% of the game is something worth discussing. No, it doesn't normally take someone 15 minutes to beat SMB. Jesus christ.

EDIT: Moreover why even talk about SMB, a classic which has spawned superior successors decades ago in a comparison to a game which is inferior to other genre titles on launch day? Not that the OP's quote gives much to work with(that is, the actual quote, not the article).
 

GhaleonQ

Member
I don't actively dislike Deus Ex or Bioshock, but if those are his beacons of trained creativity, he needs to play more video games.
 
Riposte said:
I'm annoyed that you think you or your mom beating SMB with a hidden cheat FAQ several decades later that teaches how to avoid 90% of the game is something worth discussing. No, it doesn't normally take someone 15 minutes to beat SMB. Jesus christ.

EDIT: Moreover why even talk about SMB, a classic which has spawned superior successors decades ago in a comparison to a game which is inferior to other genre titles on launch day? Not that the OP's quote gives much to work with(that is, the actual quote, not the article).

My mom beat it at launch. Here on my country, that was like on 1991.
Now I'm out. This mom talk is starting to creep me out.
 

2th

Banned
Stumpokapow said:
Boy I wish he had made his point better, because he's not wrong but the words he picked are just going to immediately turn people off.

my thoughts exactly. CoD does make gamers stupid though so maybe it has had an impact on him as well?
 

subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
GhaleonQ said:
I don't actively dislike Deus Ex or Bioshock, but if those are his beacons of trained creativity, he needs to play more video games.

like....?
 

Freshmaker

I am Korean.
He is not impressed with CoD. Therefore he is not impressed by CoD...

He doesn't like CoD.

"I don't like CoD."

What's going on with that article?
 
_Alkaline_ said:
And was that your first run through the game?
It's pretty basic, timing based trial and error. It's incredibly simple and easy to figure out for your average gamer, a lot easier than CoD online multiplayer in terms of learning curve.

Yeah there were hard games back then, but it was stuff like GnG or Contra. Mario is a cakewalk in comparison, just like there are hard games now. Demons Souls is difficult and "hardcore" and turns some people off because of it's difficulty or complexity but that doesn't make them any dumber than someone who loves the game.
 

dacuk

Member
1 hour in Live hearing teenagers insult your family up to the Nth generation kind of prove his point.
 

Anteater

Member
Freshmaker said:
He is not impressed with CoD. Therefore he is not impressed by CoD...

He doesn't like CoD.

"I don't like CoD."

What's going on with that article?

Maybe it's to do with the translation? The link to the article is in dutch I think
 
This is all relative of course, my dad mocks me as a retard for playing video games when I should be playing chess or sudoku puzzles or some other shit.

Dude is probably just trying to hype his game, fair do's. As i favour Deus Ex and Bioshock type of games I will probably keep an eye on Dishonoured - Harvey Smith hasn't got a great recent track record, but he was involved in Deus Ex, so a return to form is not out of the question.
 

Salsa

Member
he's saying call of duty is making gamers stupid

he didnt say call of duty players are stupid

there's a difference.
 
SalsaShark said:
he's saying call of duty is making gamers stupid

he didnt say call of duty players are stupid gamers

there's a difference
Not really, no.

He's insulting a different style of game (and its fans) because its popular, or venting or just trying to get some free press. Whatever it is, its an asinine thing to say.
 

Salsa

Member
NullPointer said:
Not really, no.

He's insulting a different style of game for no other reason than its popularity, or venting or just trying to get some free press. Whatever it is, its an asinine thing to say.

I get what he's trying to say and its actually true, he just chose the worst possible words to say it. As it stands, yeah, it sounds insulting, but i think he had a point somewhere that wasnt meant to be seen as just bashing other games.
 
H3xum said:
Why are people being so critical over him? He's exactly right.

People that are tailored or favor a game like CoD aren't going to be the people sitting down and seeing a game like Bioshock for what it really is, rather they see it as a mediocre shooter, their frame of reference being the CoD series.

With games like CoD and Gears people don't have to appreciate a story or other variables, because if it's not the instant gratification of shooting someone, then it's not worth it. Perhaps gamer A.D.D. would have represented his argument better than stupid.
you know bioshock is a really popular game right?
 

Kingsora

Would rather have no penis than have to show his to a medical professional
tiff said:
Pretty much every game is good to someone.
Considering that COD is a good game for millions of people, we can say the game is good (I am not crazy about it though, after ten hours in the multiplayer I am sick of it).
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Man, he didn't really phrase that poorly. But I can see what he's getting at when other shooters are regarded as "worse" then CoD because they have less handholding/aren't exactly the same.
 

Derrick01

Banned
GhaleonQ said:
I don't actively dislike Deus Ex or Bioshock, but if those are his beacons of trained creativity, he needs to play more video games.

I don't know what game you're playing that had more creative design than DX. I think we all agree that him saying Bioshock was BS though.
 
The_Technomancer said:
Man, he didn't really phrase that poorly. But I can see what he's getting at when other shooters are regarded as "worse" then CoD because they have less handholding/aren't exactly the same.
Regarded as "worse" by whom?

Is he venting about how his game is categorized by bean counters? Focus groups? Games media? I don't get it, which is why I'm not sure whether he's just venting or has an actual point to make.

If he's saying that his game won't appeal to the average COD player, fine. That's a selling point for some and he should run with it. If his game will offer more depth and variety than more power to him. But to somehow hold a lack of crossover between these games as something to fault COD or its popularity for just doesn't make sense to me at all.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
He's saying that CoD games are linear and don't require any thought. You literally move forward and aim your cursor over some pixels as things explode around you.

That, in turn, creates expectations that all games should be linear and feature no puzzles or lateral thinking.
 
Why are people being so critical over him? He's exactly right.

People that are tailored or favor a game like CoD aren't going to be the people sitting down and seeing a game like Bioshock for what it really is, rather they see it as a mediocre shooter, their frame of reference being the CoD series.

With games like CoD and Gears people don't have to appreciate a story or other variables, because if it's not the instant gratification of shooting someone, then it's not worth it. Perhaps gamer A.D.D. would have represented his argument better than stupid.

Not exactly, as it's a broad generalisation that may or may not be true for any gamer that enjoys COD; e.g. I like the Call of Duty games - I have FUN with them, but it in no way diminishes my enjoyment (or preferences for the FPS/RPG hybrid genre I love best). In many ways the fact that there are the COD games simply highlights the reasons I love Deus Ex and Bioshock all the more.

There is a big difference between saying:-
All you COD-sheep, you are too retarded for our game
and:-
Hey, COD is a great blockbuster Michael Bay-type game, but we want to give the player a Christopher Nolan-type game...


Actually maybe that second statement is more insulting... :D
 
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