[M.D]

Screw everything

What the hell happened toMorrigan?

[GillianSeed79]

Eh, I actually downloaded Journey tonight and couldn't be bothered to finish it. I forgot how awful the combat was. Plus there's a permanent buff spell that covers your party in a cloud of smoke. I literally just mashed the x button for an hour before I stopped because I couldn't see anything. It's just not worth revisiting the nightmare.

[Arcblade]

That game already exists!

Why you gotta go and make me remember back when Bioware not only did not suck, but was the best damned game company ever?

[Morkins]

His point was that that is the best they can do for acknowledging it since they have no balls/aren't allowed to straight up say it.

Even the composer for the game's soundtrack said it... It was patently obvious that they built the game in like 13 months... And for a game that was built in just over a year, DA2 was actually very good.

They don't even need to say it, because the game itself basically says it.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

That was awesome. That user was being a Dickasaurus Rex.

[ShockingAlberto]

Screw everything What the hell happened toMorrigan?

I am almost positive Merrill's quest was at one point going to lead to this.

But finishing quest lines takes time away from GIGGLESQUEEing and really that's the actual work at Bioware.

[paranoidfortean]

i hope dragon age 3 takes place in a single alley.

[Anteater]

I haven't played DA2 and I'm sure all the stuff has already been mentioned by others, so I'll just comment on something shallow: I hope they fix the character models and improve the character creator, I loved the character creator in DAO and the toolset to make better faces, bring that back too!
Why the hell did they downgrade that?!

[Sceptic]

This has made me actually a bit exited for DA3 and I thought DA2 was one of the most disappointing things I have ever played. Still won't buy it day 1 again though.

[GillianSeed79]

I haven't played DA2 and I'm sure all the stuff has already been mentioned by others, so I'll just comment on something shallow: I hope they fix the character models and improve the character creator, I loved the character creator in DAO and the toolset to make better faces, bring that back too! Why the hell did they downgrade that?!

Trust me. This was the least of DA II's problems.

[IceMarker]

Dragon Age III |OT| Shit Mountain Strikes Back

[Stallion Free]

I am almost positive Merrill's quest was at one point going to lead to this. But finishing quest lines takes time away from GIGGLESQUEEing and really that's the actual work at Bioware.

God where is that forum post from that writer talking about Merrill when you need it.

Merrill was a complete waste of a party member. If they had actually focused on the mirror and tying it into DA1, it could have been something truly interesting. Instead it's all build up and absolutely no payoff.

[Vagabundo]

Very skeptical, going from those comments, that they can get back to what made origins great.

Bioware go back and play BGII and then do something similar.

I have no problem with making the game more accessible or intuitive. It is not complexity that I crave but flexibility, the ability to play the game my way.

EDIT: I think they are not going to get as many pre orders this time around. Please will wait and see, so the next game will sink or swim on it's own merits.

[Reuenthal]

so how good is legacy?

While feedback is appreciated, I would like to take a moment to discourage people who think that torches and pitchforks is the way to fix things, as you advocated, Saint. It is not. The end result of a successful campaign to prevent all sales of DA games would likely be the end of DA, not a redesign from the ground up. And while some might call that a "win," I don't see how losing one of the increasingly rare crop of fantasy RPGs out there benefits anyone. Reasonable, passionate feedback is the best possible thing to provide. Seeing strongly negative reaction to DA II, and strongly positive reaction to Legacy, even from some of DAII's strongest detractors (and yes, I know it's not universal, but what is), is incredibly useful.

Is it really what people wanted DA 2 to be instead? Is it really that good? Not asking because I want to get it but because I am wondering if the Bioware people confidence on Legacy and also on them being able to satisfy the demands of the people who have complaints over DA2, is warranted.

[Stallion Free]

so how good is legacy?

Legacy is better than most, if not all quests in the original game. It feels like DA1 main quest content in design. The story is interesting as well and there is a ton of dialogue from the relevant party members.

[bobnowhere]

Reading all the posts gives me the impression that Laidlaw still thinks the game is all kinds of awesome, it's just that us the consumer don't get it and if he were to explain it properly the game would be universally hailed as the Lord of the Rings of gaming.

There was a thread on the Bio social Network some months ago that I though nailed the problem with DA2. It basically said DA2 lacked ambition and they stook the easy way out. What ever you think off other games or companies you can't really say games like Skyrim, DX:HR, LA Noire, TW2 etc... lack ambition. Deep down DAO had six different experiences, DA2 has one with tits and one without and that made no discernible impact on the game anyway.

[Shaka]

Legacy is better than most, if not all quests in the original game. It feels like DA1 main quest content in design. The story is interesting as well and there is a ton of dialogue from the relevant party members.

I'm enjoying the shit out of it so far. I hope they can learn from their mistakes and realise the series potential.

[Stallion Free]

I'm enjoying the shit out of it so far. I hope they can learn from their mistakes and realise the series potential.

I didn't regret grabbing the dlc at all. I hope they drop some more content along those lines.

[MesserWolf]

my thoughts:
1) do not rush it out
2) do not assume players are moron
3) put some passion in it
4) play again BG, Vampire Bloodlines, etc see what good games are about
5) watch out for cliché .... at least try to limit them

[Treemonkeys]

And for a game that was built in just over a year, DA2 was actually very good.

Considering it was built off assets from DAO I really don't think so, it would have been much wiser to keep the same basic mechanics/engine/ui/etc from the first game so then they could spend as much time on the content as possible while also making a real sequel that doesn't alienate the original fans. Pretty stupid to try and reinvent the game in such a short time frame IMO.

[delirium]

I tried replaying a little bit of DA2 to see if I should buy Legacy and after a while I realize the combat is crap. It felt like a horrible mixture between DA1/BG2's tactical combat and some ARPG combat. It's like the worst from both world instead of being either a good tactical RPG combat or good action RPG combat.

I feel wish DA3 they shouldn't try to mix the two anymore and should just embrace one or the other.

[EDarkness]

"Expanding the audience", something something. It does make sense, and I am not against successors that are 'just' set in the same universe. If they're going to do that, however, then for the love of god don't put a 2 or a 3 at the end of it when you are telling a wholly different story.

If they're going to do this, then they need wrap things up and not leave these crazy plot holes. I went into Dragon Age 2 hoping that they'd wrap up The Warden's story only to start a whole new story and be left wondering what the hell happened to my character. Even at the end of Dragon Age 2, there's this huge cliff hanger and we're left wondering what the hell is going on. I'd much rather pick up where my character left off and take his/her story to the finale, then pick up another character.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

If I ever meet Mike Laidlaw I'm going to punch him in the stomach.

Yeah, I doubt it.

[Beautifully Shaped Monsters]

It has been said before, but the only way I'll consider buying DAIII would be if they went back DA:O and build it on that. That includes everything: combat mechanics, customisation and even story structure.

Then they can fiddle with it, improve a few things that certainly did not work in Origins and look how to take this series forward.

But if DAII is going to be the basis for where the series is going they have lost me.

However the reason I think this won't happen, is that they could actually work the DAII formula into something that will appeal very much to the "action adventure with RPG elements"-crowd and this is clearly the crowd EA wants them to cater for.

Even Bethesda seems to be eyeing them with some of the design choices they are making with Skyrim.

[Aeana]

I tried replaying a little bit of DA2 to see if I should buy Legacy and after a while I realize the combat is crap. It felt like a horrible mixture between DA1/BG2's tactical combat and some ARPG combat. It's like the worst from both world instead of being either a good tactical RPG combat or good action RPG combat. I feel wish DA3 they shouldn't try to mix the two anymore and should just embrace one or the other.

Which version? Because the actual core combat mechanics themselves are very similar between the PC versions of DA:O and DA2. The difference in camera angle choices and encounter design of course create a far wider gap, but the mechanics themselves remain similar, albeit faster. On consoles, well, I imagined that after they added auto-attack in the patch, it would also be similar to DA:O on consoles.

[Treemonkeys]

The difference in camera angle choices and encounter design of course create a far wider gap, but the mechanics themselves remain similar, albeit faster.

That is the whole problem (with PC version, haven't played the others outside of the demo), if you're playing on harder difficulties the faster pace and reduced camera just make it that much more tedious to micro manage battles like you need to...it actually feels a lot like DAO on 360/PS3, only at an even faster speed.

[Lime]

Just throw the series and the entire DA team under the bus. The PR, the pre-order situation, the community relations, the clusterfuck that DA2 was, the generic fantasy tropes, etc. all make the series unrepairable.

[FieryBalrog]

Is there any reason Bioware was pressured by EA to rush out a bastardized sequel? Did DA:O not sell well enough or something?

[Mr_Zombie]

I still don't understand the design decision about not being able to change your companion's armor. That way loot you found is literally junk, because Hawke can't use it :/

I understand that BioWare wanted companions to be unique this time, but they can also achieve it by... making more unique looking armors/robes and items. DA:O has like 2 or 3 types of armor for rouge and the same amount of robes for mages (including Morrigan's costume). No wonder after a while all rouges and all mages in your party looked the same.

Of course, as always, modding community fixed both games: gave much more unique loot in DA:O and added the ability to change your party armors in DA2.

[Jerykk]

That is the whole problem (with PC version, haven't played the others outside of the demo), if you're playing on harder difficulties the faster pace and reduced camera just make it that much more tedious to micro manage battles like you need to...it actually feels a lot like DAO on 360/PS3, only at an even faster speed.

I actually turned off the party AI and micromanaged every single action my party took in DAO. I never found it tedious because the combat encounters were well-designed and you could actually formulate a plan at the start of any given fight. I tried to do the same in DA2 (you have to when you play on Nightmare difficulty) but it got tedious pretty quickly. The waves of enemies that spawn during combat completely undermine any planning you can do and the seemingly endless spawning quickly turns combat into a grind.

I haven't played it yet but based on the GiantBomb quick look of Legacy, combat still feels like a grind and waves of enemies still spawn during combat. The only difference I noticed is that they don't spawn out of thin air anymore but that doesn't really fix the inherent issues with spawning waves of enemies.

EDIT: Actually, there was one fight in DAO that spawned seemingly endless waves of enemies: the town defense in Redcliffe. A lot of people found that to be pretty tedious. Every fight in DA2 is like that.

[Duki]

the only reason why i found the wave combat tolerable in da2 was because the warrior class was basically comically overpowered in comparison to regular enemies

just aoed the shit out of enemies again and again

i tried a rogue after and couldnt stand the game at all, fighting one enemy at a time was a disaster

[DaBuddaDa]

Seems like virtually every problem with DA2 could have been addressed eventually if they had given it one more year of development time.

[water_wendi]

Seems like virtually every problem with DA2 could have been addressed eventually if they had given it one more year of development time.

i dont get this at all. Waves of enemies popping in wouldnt have changed in a year. Repetitive dungeons seemed like a conscious decision from the start with the modular dungeons. Poor story, character, and choices wouldnt have changed. Maybe NPC equipment but again this seems like a design choice.

[DaBuddaDa]

i dont get this at all. Waves of enemies popping in wouldnt have changed in a year. Repetitive dungeons seemed like a conscious decision from the start with the modular dungeons. Poor story, character, and choices wouldnt have changed. Maybe NPC equipment but again this seems like a design choice.

All of those design choices are a result of not having the time to tweak and polish encounters, side quests or build more unique locations. If you read exactly what Laidlaw posted, it sounds to me like he's saying they did what they did because they didn't have the time to do anything else. He "would have liked" to do a lot of stuff.

[bobnowhere]

Is there any reason Bioware was pressured by EA to rush out a bastardized sequel? Did DA:O not sell well enough or something?

I think it's the opposite. DAO sold so well they saw a quick return on the frankly ludicrous amount of money EA paid for Bioware. Unfortunately I suspect they forever poisoned the DA brand in the process.

[Corky]

I could swear there was a thread a year ago or so that was named very similarly. Where BioWare PR was spouted like vomit and talked about how awesome and great DA2 was going to be.

[Zeliard]

I have lost all faith in Bioware, and I really don't give a shit what they have to say. Like many devs, they bullshit the consumer base and simply view that as "marketing." Worthless to listen to in any meaningful way. Laidlaw says that they listened to consumer feedback? Bioware and their hubris? Yeah, I'll bet.

[Pranay_]

i dont get this at all. Waves of enemies popping in wouldnt have changed in a year. Repetitive dungeons seemed like a conscious decision from the start with the modular dungeons. Poor story, character, and choices wouldnt have changed. Maybe NPC equipment but again this seems like a design choice.

Legacy has fixed a lot of issues

[tea_and_crumpets]

Sounds promising, although I haven't liked the direction Bioware have taken with either Dragon Age or Mass Effect so I remain sceptical. Wait and see.

[MaddenNFL64]

Can't they just add DA2's combat with DA's character customization and call it a day?

This would be nice.

[Zeliard]

I could swear there was a thread a year ago or so that was named very similarly. Where BioWare PR was spouted like vomit and talked about how awesome and great DA2 was going to be.

Stuff like this is common and I don't know why people pay any mind to it. Dev words are frequently empty since they are a part of the game's marketing. It's just PR.

I take Laidlaw's words here with the same grain of salt as I do Todd Howard when he's talking about "unscripted this and unscripted that" in Skyrim. If their last games hadn't squandered so much promise and potential I might be of a different mind. As it stands, their words are about as meaningful as that of a company spokesperson they are.

Better to wait until there is some concrete depiction of how the game plays and what it does. Dragon Age III could be good, but I'm certainly not taking Laidlaw's word for it.

[Shaka]

Legacy has fixed a lot of issues

Legacy is awesome.

[Oxymoron]

I love the idea that the reuse of levels was somehow just something that happened and not a design decision. Like, the level designers all secretly conspired to reuse assets, and the higher-ups were too drunk to notice until the game shipped.


(Someone should probably tell Laidlaw that decisions you take to work within the constraints of your publisher are still design decision.)

[Kayo-kun]

They either go back to the quality and style that Origins had, or they'll lose me as a costumer on DA3. DA2 was a huge disappointment and it felt like they threw out alot of the charm the first game had just to try to appeal to a bigger audience.

I dont know if I trust Laidlaw with all his promises, since this sounds like a PR damage control to me. They are probably trying to build up the hype for DA3 after the disappointment that DA2 was.

[DaBuddaDa]

His first example also reflects Bioware's modus operandi with sequels: "Something didn't work in the first game? Don't improve it, CUT IT!"

[Sotha Sil]

That game already exists!

It still baffles me how... adult BG2 feels in terms of themes and characters (well, some of them), compared to Bioware's later games. The general tone of their latest installments (and developers' messages, if the mrrooowwwl post is to be believed) is off-puttingly juvenile.

[speedpop]

His first example also reflects Bioware's modus operandi with sequels: "Something didn't work in the first game? Don't improve it, CUT IT!"

Makes you wonder what tonic they were drinking during BG2 development then.

[toastyToast]

I really don't care what becomes of this franchise tbh

Origins wasn't even that good.

[Rolf NB]

The avatar of that Laidlaw character is such a great summary of Bioware.

[Stallion Free]

Considering it was built off assets from DAO I really don't think so, it would have been much wiser to keep the same basic mechanics/engine/ui/etc from the first game so then they could spend as much time on the content as possible while also making a real sequel that doesn't alienate the original fans. Pretty stupid to try and reinvent the game in such a short time frame IMO.

The assets of DAO? I don't think I saw a single obvious asset from DAO reused in DA2.

Is there any reason Bioware was pressured by EA to rush out a bastardized sequel? Did DA:O not sell well enough or something?

EA has a habit of rushing things out currently. Battlefield 3 is shipping 1.5 years after Bad Company 2, just so they can release before Modern Warfare 3.