[Morkins]

You still are carrying that tone. Being stealthy with disrespect is not the same as removing it. That's great you played the game and are posting impressions. But, you are going about it the wrong way. Nobody wants you to "teach" the game. We would prefer to hear about your experience with it since most of us don't have the luxury. It is still theory. Most of your bullet points are just simple inferences based on skills and mechanics. They aren't difficult to understand. What you aren't realizing, is that just because there is logic does not mean there is relevance. The majority of the skills might be thrown out. Tactics might be way different then your ideas. The game-play could devolve into all DPS pressure builds where the base idea is the kill clock. The game could also move more towards a terrain battle with a heavy emphasis on kiting. That would emphasis misdirection and map games over combat. If you want to prove your theories you'll have to wait until about 1 month after the retail game is out worldwide. That's the nature of this stuff. And even then, the PvP world can flip upside down based on the tiniest variances. Keep posting your impressions but you don't have to talk down to give your points validity.

I am not intending it that way...

And I am giving my impressions. The gameplay is dynamic and adaptive and require thought into everything. Skills are varied in their uses(some more than others). When you do get into playing with other players it becomes even more varied, and you can do even more with the combat. It just sort of builds on itself. And in the couple hours I had with the game, I didn't even scratch the surface of what was actually present in the game...

And I am not the only one who is expressing this opinion. People who have spent a lot more time with a lot more high level content have basically said the same thing. This Episode of GuildCast has moments when it mentions things along the lines of what I have mentioned(mostly when they get into talking about roles during Dungeons). I am sorry that I don't have specific times, but that episode has a lot of discussion about it in ways that directly speak about the mechanics of the combat and how everything flows during "group" situations... The game is just natural in terms of how easy it is to grasp the basic concepts, but difficult it is to master them.

[gunbo13]

I am not intending it that way...

I never conclude this early on these things. I can talk all day about every single known mechanic and the ramifications. You just don't have to delve into education since the points are clear and not misunderstood.

However, my latest thoughts have PvP leaning towards more of a action system with heavy emphasis on melee and less game of thought strategies, replaced with re-flexing. I prefer melee in doses, dual tasking your skills bar and movement, re-flexing being a new interesting mechanic, and multiple "battle of wits" strategies in play. There are apparent conflicts and even if everyone is saying otherwise, the possibilities for the latter was not dead for a "long time."

And I am giving my impressions. The gameplay is dynamic and adaptive and require thought into everything. Skills are varied in their uses(some more than others). When you do get into playing with other players it becomes even more varied, and you can do even more with the combat. It just sort of builds on itself. And in the couple hours I had with the game, I didn't even scratch the surface of what was actually present in the game...

Honestly though, that wording reads more like PR then substance. I personally would prefer the breakdowns of mechanics to support these ideas. Talk about dodging, kiting, movement speed, etc... Those descriptions can enlighten people to your ideas instead of you asking us to just trust you on principal.

[Morkins]

Honestly though, that wording reads more like PR then substance. I personally would prefer the breakdowns of mechanics to support these ideas. Talk about dodging, kiting, movement speed, etc... Those descriptions can enlighten people to your ideas instead of you asking us to just trust you on principal.

Ok. Dodging is extremely important. In the SDCC build, it was basically the only thing that used any significant amount of energy(part of the reason why I had no issue with the energy change), and when you weren't able to do it, you were significantly less effective and had to be a lot smarter about how your approached combat. Double tap to activate was sort of twitchy and ineffective at times, but it worked... I like the hotkey option now.

Kiting was super easy. Lots of spells can be cast while moving, and in general the game is good for kiting. "Control" definitely plays into that since you can be even more effective at kiting if you are smart about using those types of spells. Basically, it is possible to be constantly changing position and still cast spells effectively. And that is good. Moving is an important part of the combat and making sure that you have good position is just as important as actually moving. I wouldn't say that in the PvE you HAVE to move, but there are benefits to it and I can't imagine doing well against high level monsters unless you move(and in PvP, people who were good at kiting in the original game are going to have plenty of room to flex that skill set in GW2).

Movement speed is pretty good. It is definitely pretty quick. And with the dodging and ability to cast while moving, it is just even faster.

I have to go for now, but if you want to know anything else I will respond as best as I can.

[gunbo13]

Ok. Dodging is extremely important. In the SDCC build, it was basically the only thing that used any significant amount of energy(part of the reason why I had no issue with the energy change), and when you weren't able to do it, you were significantly less effective and had to be a lot smarter about how your approached combat. Double tap to activate was sort of twitchy and ineffective at times, but it worked... I like the hotkey option now.

What is the cool-down on landing? What about hit-confirms, are you invincible on execution even if say an animated attack lands on frames? Can you dodge out of all attacks or is there some sort of stun involved? Do you still think you can become trapped e.g. GW1? If this is action oriented, I would expect a lot of these areas to be addressed. I'm hoping that this doesn't become some Bayonetta witch time shit though.

Kiting was super easy. Lots of spells can be cast while moving, and in general the game is good for kiting. "Control" definitely plays into that since you can be even more effective at kiting if you are smart about using those types of spells. Basically, it is possible to be constantly changing position and still cast spells effectively. And that is good. Moving is an important part of the combat and making sure that you have good position is just as important as actually moving. I wouldn't say that in the PvE you HAVE to move, but there are benefits to it and I can't imagine doing well against high level monsters unless you move(and in PvP, people who were good at kiting in the original game are going to have plenty of room to flex that skill set in GW2).

How is kiting projectiles? What directional movement do you use? Is it effective? My worry is with all the melee capabilities, you will have a lot of PvP with musket wars. It will depend on the DPS I'm sure. It is also hard to envision a warrior going ranged when the DPS should logically be much higher on melee. What's the point except to build adrenaline like GW1? I also see the same logic with the elementalist. Why the hell would I stop casting elementals when I have no mana pool? I'm going to whip out a bow?

PvE I get but PvP seems really odd in concept.

Movement speed is pretty good. It is definitely pretty quick. And with the dodging and ability to cast while moving, it is just even faster.

Faster then GW1? The diagonals felt clunky in GW1 so I hope that is refined. Is there differing movement based on terrain? Is it seamless to dive into water?

I could go on forever.

[Grivenger]

I don't think its hard to understand that people who love the original Guild Wars are disappointed to hear that the sequel won't have any similarities to its predecessor. Its particularly sad to me, because I see an industry thats obsessed with sequelitis, yet the developers of the franchises I enjoy the most (Smash Bros, Guild Wars, etc) seem to think its a great idea to go a completely new direction. It wouldn't hurt so much if there were other games like them to fill the void, but since they are unique its like killing a genre. :/

The philosophy behind GW2's game design is still mostly the same as the first one. Only the implementation differs and, theorically, GW2 is bound to be better than GW1 at almost everything the first one did.

GW2 will make mobility and terrain space much more important than they were in GW1. It's a game that is less about reading skill descriptions and more about analyzing what is happening on the battlefield. They want the player to judge the state of battle by what they see, not have them watch energy bars half of the time. It won't make the battles more shallow because by taking some functionalities, you're also adding new ones to fill the holes.

The spell animations will be clearer, because it needs to. There will be a huge diversity of ways a skill can affect the terrain, or can hit the targets. More than just projectiles or non-projectiles, there's now cone-shaped skills, terrain-targetting skills (even if there are no enemies there), channeling spells, etc. Wards are going to be more diverse, movement control too. Kiting will be further explored, with dodging - and be extremely important because avoiding attacks will be significantly stronger than healing yourself.

Tell me, how can you spend so much time watching your bars and recharges, with so much chaos in the battlefield, with so much to avoid or kite from, and so many different ways of avoiding the skills? Especially in a game where you can't target heal other characters to fill their health bar, and instead further observe the battlefield to see what it threatens them, and then either control the movement of the enemy or use the right timing to protect your allies from key skills.

You can't, that's the truth of it, and so you have to simplify some abstract mechanics in order to open the way to some visual mechanics.

It is also hard to envision a warrior going ranged when the DPS should logically be much higher on melee. What's the point except to build adrenaline like GW1?

For example, a guardian puts a ward on the ground that doesn't allows melee to enter through it, nor to leave it. This will allow your target to kite away from you if you were inside the ward, or run to it if not. In such a case, if your secondary weapon is a bow, it is a great moment to keep hitting such target, especially if they run inside the ward and you (or a spellcaster with damage-per-second spells) forced them to flee from it. It is also a good way to start a battle.

Another thing to consider: because there's no dedicated healer class, and while recharging your self-healing skill, if your hp is nearly depleted you will have to run away a bit. A bow allows to keep hitting your enemies from far instead of being a sitting duck for several seconds.

Why the hell would I stop casting elementals when I have no mana pool?

Why do melees don't lose energy when auto-attacking? If their skills are as strong as the ones from spellcasting, while their auto-attacks are stronger, doesn't that makes them better from a balance point-of-view?

GW2 treats both types the same way. There are no auto-attacks, your first weapon skill has no recharge (and is thus spammable and "weak"), and all your other skills have a recharge cost, so you can only cast them every once a while.

You don't need to stop casting spells just like you don't need to stop attacking with your weapon.

Also for this, there's no reason to believe melee have an inherit advantage over mages.

(And first-slot spammable skills are more distinct from each other; while auto-attacks are usually the same between classes in mmos, just with different damage types and being melee/ ranger.)

Faster then GW1? The diagonals felt clunky in GW1 so I hope that is refined. Is there differing movement based on terrain? Is it seamless to dive into water?

Dodging and casting while moving make things faster. The diagonals are fixed and will be important. The third question I don't know, and for the forth, yes, extremely seamless: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBpDc...eature=related

[gunbo13]

GW2 will make mobility and terrain space much more important than they were in GW1. It's a game that is less about reading skill descriptions and more about analyzing what is happening on the battlefield. They want the player to judge the state of battle by what they see, not have them watch energy bars half of the time. It won't make the battles more shallow because by taking some functionalities, you're also adding new ones to fill the holes.

There is definitely some monk loyalty here when I think of this functionality. Monks would manage skills bar, red bars, and environment. You had to somehow watch all three at the same time. It was a crazy meta-game but was seriously fun as hell due to the challenge. I guess it is just another change which strips out the old. This is certainly a more welcome change for melee based characters though and even offensive casters. I guess with the monk gone, it also makes sense from a design standpoint. The triple monitor monk game though will be missed.

The spell animations will be clearer, because it needs to. There will be a huge diversity of ways a skill can affect the terrain, or can hit the targets. More than just projectiles or non-projectiles, there's now cone-shaped skills, terrain-targetting skills (even if there are no enemies there), channeling spells, etc. Wards are going to be more diverse, movement control too. Kiting will be further explored, with dodging - and be extremely important because avoiding attacks will be significantly stronger than healing yourself.

I'm interested regarding kiting/dodging vs. spell AoE. Take a spell like meteor shower and imagine being able to dodge easily. There has to be some sort of hit stun or AoE will be useless. Either that or there are some traits that can be snares, etc... What is the KD game now? Are you able to chain KDs or is it too early to tell?

Tell me, how can you spend so much time watching your bars and recharges, with so much chaos in the battlefield, with so much to avoid or kite from, and so many different ways of avoiding the skills? Especially in a game where you can't target heal other characters to fill their health bar, and instead further observe the battlefield to see what it threatens them, and then either control the movement of the enemy or use the right timing to protect your allies from key skills. You can't, that's the truth of it, and so you have to simplify some abstract mechanics in order to open the way to some visual mechanics.

Mo smite/prot, Mo/Me heal/energy steal, etc... It was mandatory for many monk builds to triple monitor.

For example, a guardian puts a ward on the ground that doesn't allows melee to enter through it, nor to leave it. This will allow your target to kite away from you if you were inside the ward, or run to it if not. In such a case, if your secondary weapon is a bow, it is a great moment to keep hitting such target, especially if they run inside the ward and you (or a spellcaster with damage-per-second spells) forced them to flee from it. It is also a good way to start a battle. Another thing to consider: because there's no dedicated healer class, and while recharging your self-healing skill, if your hp is nearly depleted you will have to run away a bit. A bow allows to keep hitting your enemies from far instead of being a sitting duck for several seconds.

I feel like with such movement abilities wards will be less important. Wards were effective in GW1 due to the crappy movement. With all these options, I feel like they will be way more utility then mainstream in use, defending points, guarding, etc... I doubt kiting wards will be big either again due to the traversal ability.

The runaway is certainly an area where I see the benefit. This was a huge part of GW1 where it was easy to escape as long as casters weren't in range. Now you should be able to add finishing touches with a bit more realism. I'm curious here though how dodging affects this. If a player can get away with roly-poly crap, then there isn't much of a difference.

Why do melees don't lose energy when auto-attacking? If their skills are as strong as the ones from spellcasting, while their auto-attacks are stronger, doesn't that makes them better from a balance point-of-view?

My questioning more involves what was outlined above. The tiering of the skills is understandable. I am a bit weary of the spammability factor but we'll have to see how that works out. It just seems that weapon switching may be more utility for some classes. Elementalists have such range for example that I don't see melee weapons being that useful. The counter to this would be if ANET has a system in place where there is a relationship between staff/melee. Like a weapon switch can enhance or modify the DPS/enemy control. I haven't read anything like that except early ideas about combining spell properties. If that had some DMC style weapon switching shit though, then I'd lose concerns.

[Justin Timberlake]

GW2 will make mobility and terrain space much more important than they were in GW1. It's a game that is less about reading skill descriptions and more about analyzing what is happening on the battlefield. They want the player to judge the state of battle by what they see, not have them watch energy bars half of the time. It won't make the battles more shallow because by taking some functionalities, you're also adding new ones to fill the holes.

(Good) Players didn't stare at energy bars in GW1. Hell, they barely looked at them. Traditional UI setups had the skillbar super small (all skills were activated on the keyboard; skillbar is there to manage cooldowns), health and energy on the side, usually large and vertical so it can be easily seen at your periphery, and targets at the center. Looking around the battlefield, noticing animations, and constantly moving (kiting) was a key part of the game.

Sure, its hard, but thats what made the game good. It took time to master. There were good and bad players.

We'll see how the new functionalities go. I'm not convinced they help replace the hole that all these other changes make.

[animlboogy]

I have to say, while I'm an incessant proponent of the sandbox style of MMO, this game seems to be taking the prevalent form to greatness. I absolutely cannot wait to play it.

[gunbo13]

(Good) Players didn't stare at energy bars in GW1. Hell, they barely looked at them. Traditional UI setups had the skillbar super small (all skills were activated on the keyboard; skillbar is there to manage cooldowns), health and energy on the side, usually large and vertical so it can be easily seen at your periphery, and targets at the center. Looking around the battlefield, noticing animations, and constantly moving (kiting) was a key part of the game. Sure, its hard, but thats what made the game good. It took time to master. There were good and bad players. We'll see how the new functionalities go. I'm not convinced they help replace the hole that all these other changes make.

Skill bar was used for resurrect and not much else. Everything else was number and hot keys.

Veteran GW1 players, check out Victrix's thread if you want to run it back in GW1. For those I'm clashing with in this thread, don't discourage. I'll be nice and you are welcomed. All casual play, no crazy stuff, etc...
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=441013

[Grivenger]

I'm not convinced they help replace the hole that all these other changes make.

Thing is, there's more things to do now while moving, and there's one bar less to check - which actually, now that I think of it, isn't even true. As the dodge ability will have its own energy bar, and dodging will be vital, energy management will still be key to your survival.

Which other "holes" are there in?

[f0rk]

nvm
Hope it's the Mesmer. The current ones aren't doing much for me.

[Morkins]

What is the cool-down on landing? Pretty short. It doesn't really interrupt the flow of combat that much and you can almost spam dodge, though that is an exceedingly stupid thing to do because it decimates your Energy and you were basically useless for 30+ seconds since you couldn't really use skills or have the mobility that you needed... With the energy change, it just makes it so that you aren't useless, you just aren't as effective. I can see arguments both ways as to whether that is better or not, because punishing people for spamming Dodge does need to be in the game. I think that reducing the punishment was a good idea, but can see how some might think that it went to far, and now makes spamming Dodge a somewhat viable option even if you do lose effectiveness overall What about hit-confirms, are you invincible on execution even if say an animated attack lands on frames? I don't think I was invincible, but maybe I just wasn't paying that close attention to it. It is very quick... Like less than 1 second quick. Can you dodge out of all attacks or is there some sort of stun involved? Not sure what you mean... If you Dodge you move out of the way pretty quickly. If you get hit, you still get hit. If you don't get hit, then you don't get hit. There are stun conditions and other things that would make dodging more difficult/impossible, but when you Dodge, it basically comes down to whether or not you get hit. The detection was pretty good with that. Do you still think you can become trapped e.g. GW1? I didn't get trapped. With the Z-axis, I imagine it won't happen that much barring outright clipping into something, then I am sure they have some sort of /stuck function like GW1. If this is action oriented, I would expect a lot of these areas to be addressed. I'm hoping that this doesn't become some Bayonetta witch time shit though. How is kiting projectiles? Possible. Detection is good, if it doesn't look like you get hit, typically you don't take damage. Can't promise that it would always be true since there are lag related circumstances that would be outliers, but in general, yes you can dodge projectiles What directional movement do you use? If I am interpreting this correctly, you use WASD. No click to move. Think 3rd Person Action RPG. It isn't that far removed from GW1, though it feel less clunky(though I never had a problem with the controls in GW1, so it is sort of a relative comparison), namely in terms of responsiveness. I didn't have any problems with it. Is it effective? Yes. My worry is with all the melee capabilities, you will have a lot of PvP with musket wars. It will depend on the DPS I'm sure. It is also hard to envision a warrior going ranged when the DPS should logically be much higher on melee. What's the point except to build adrenaline like GW1? I'd say both options are equally viable. I didn't play much warrior because I could honestly care less about that class(Guardian for life) I also see the same logic with the elementalist. Why the hell would I stop casting elementals when I have no mana pool? You don't... The game doesn't have a "default attack." You activate a skill to attack. The first skills are basically free and have an instant recharge. They are designed to be spammed. There is an Auto-Attack mechanic where you right click on a skill and it will automatically activate for at long as you are in combat(every time it recharges). Edit - Clarification here... You have to target and engage someone for the auto attack to activate.I'm going to whip out a bow? No bow for the Elementalist. Because of attunements, you just just get Staff, Dagger and Scepter as options with Focus/Dagger offhand. PvE I get but PvP seems really odd in concept. Faster then GW1? In practice, yes. I don't know if the raw movement speed is actually faster though... But when you can move while casting and then the dodge mechanic makes you roll in a direction quickly, it is a lot faster... The diagonals felt clunky in GW1 so I hope that is refined. I want to say that it is, but I didn't have any problems with GW1 really so I may just be imagining things. Is there differing movement based on terrain? You mean going slower up an incline? Not that I noticed... If it is there, it is extremely subtle. Is it seamless to dive into water? Basically. You have to look down to dive, but it is basically seamless. I could go on forever.

Bolded Answers

Further clarification on the "Attacking" topic...

As I said, the game doesn't really have a default attack. Targeting and engaging someone won't cause your character to start swinging a sword or shooting projectiles like GW1 did(Not really at least... the auto-attack would activate whatever skill you map to do that. Certain cases will involve just swinging a sword or shooting a projectile, it will just be doing that by activating whatever skill you have set to auto-attack) You have to activate a skill. The "Weapon Skills" are basically different variations on attacks. Basically along the lines of a basic attack, charged attack, AoE attack, etc... They are other skills related to control/support, but you still only attack by activating a skill.

[gunbo13]

"I don't think I was invincible, but maybe I just wasn't paying that close attention to it. It is very quick... Like less than 1 second quick."
Usually games with such dodge mechanics never have perfect hit detection with the skeletal models (so much independent joint movement and possible hit detects). So you can be given invincibility frames to compensate. It is difficult to eye-ball but you would have to notice times where you felt like you should have gotten hit, yet didn't. That sort of thing.
"Not sure what you mean..."
Yea, that was vague on my part. I meant that if for example an elementalist was using a fire spell and it connects on first hit, is there is stun to prevent an instant dodge out. It is basically hit stun to prevent you from dodging out of all attacks like you don't give a damn. Think of pushing the advantage in fighting games. If there is no hit stun, it is like even hitting the opponent doesn't actually do anything but the little damage off the meter.
"I didn't get trapped."
What about body-blocking trapped? Remember in GW1 PvP where a team could trap an opponent making them basically finished? I'm guessing you can jump/dodge out but this is probably something I doubt you had a chance to test.
"If I am interpreting this correctly, you use WASD."
I meant directional movement regarding kiting. You could either bait/advance or strafe. Like when fighting a ranger you could bait out an attack by faking an advance but have the movement speed to back out of attack range. Or you could FPS strafe and cause whiffs except if you move back into the projectiles.
"You don't... The game doesn't have a "default attack."
What I meant was why I would leave "primary" mode for any other attack system. Elementalist was the absolute worst example I could have used since it doesn't apply. I'm not sure what I was thinking there. I more meant switching to a weapon system that almost seems like an absolute downgrade to the major. The ranger stands out. I simply can't imagine many instances where you would remove your tactical advantage of using powerful bow attacks to go in close and play with a sword. But besides it appearing "odd," it would be an amazing feat to balance all of these variations. This is not a question that can be answered right now but it is hard to believe that each class won't have mostly dead weapons.

Good stuff, I appreciate the answers. I think I might take a break on the hype train for awhile though. When I logged into GW1 today so send out those guild invites, I really got the feeling that GW1 might have been one of those lighting in a bottle type online PvP games. I'm thinking that GW2 might be a game that I end up missing despite is sounding like a great offer for most.

I'll have to see what comes out of the PvP reports.

EDIT:
Also, GW1 PvP is still broken to shit. Attrition battles up in this game without recourse. Monks and anti-melee are still ridiculously over-powered due to the fantastic "balance" achieved. Yuck. I saw a battle between #1 and #4 where any of those players could be completely average and still pull off what they did. It was like watching a bunch of automatons. So much nostalgia for a game that is still played today...odd.

/rant

[Morkins]

"I don't think I was invincible, but maybe I just wasn't paying that close attention to it. It is very quick... Like less than 1 second quick." Usually games with such dodge mechanics never have perfect hit detection with the skeletal models (so much independent joint movement and possible hit detects). So you can be given invincibility frames to compensate. It is difficult to eye-ball but you would have to notice times where you felt like you should have gotten hit, yet didn't. That sort of thing.

I didn't notice anything, but it may have been present... The detection is extremely good even at this point in time.

"Not sure what you mean..." Yea, that was vague on my part. I meant that if for example an elementalist was using a fire spell and it connects on first hit, is there is stun to prevent an instant dodge out. It is basically hit stun to prevent you from dodging out of all attacks like you don't give a damn. Think of pushing the advantage in fighting games. If there is no hit stun, it is like even hitting the opponent doesn't actually do anything but the little damage off the meter.

Yes, there is a stun. Doesn't last very long and you can dodge the next attack if you time it right, but there is a stun.

"I didn't get trapped." What about body-blocking trapped? Remember in GW1 PvP where a team could trap an opponent making them basically finished? I'm guessing you can jump/dodge out but this is probably something I doubt you had a chance to test.

Never got surrounded. I also want to say that bodyblocking doesn't exist at all. You definitely clip through monsters a lot. When fighting normally and not testing for it specifically it is difficult to say for sure. Most times I stopped before the monster because I was attacking it. But I remember clipping through monsters a lot when just sort of moving around. Not sure if that was just bad collision detection or a lack of collision detection though. I want to say lack, because I remember ANet mentioning that a while ago.
Edit - Yep.

"If I am interpreting this correctly, you use WASD." I meant directional movement regarding kiting. You could either bait/advance or strafe. Like when fighting a ranger you could bait out an attack by faking an advance but have the movement speed to back out of attack range. Or you could FPS strafe and cause whiffs except if you move back into the projectiles.

Yeah. Less of an issue with "baiting attacks" since they can just be mobile while attacking anyway. The Dodge does this a lot better than just standard kiting, but you can do it with just standard kiting...

"You don't... The game doesn't have a "default attack." What I meant was why I would leave "primary" mode for any other attack system. Elementalist was the absolute worst example I could have used since it doesn't apply. I'm not sure what I was thinking there. I more meant switching to a weapon system that almost seems like an absolute downgrade to the major. The ranger stands out. I simply can't imagine many instances where you would remove your tactical advantage of using powerful bow attacks to go in close and play with a sword. But besides it appearing "odd," it would be an amazing feat to balance all of these variations. This is not a question that can be answered right now but it is hard to believe that each class won't have mostly dead weapons.

Every weapon is pretty evenly balanced across the class. Everything has its purpose and role. Basically, the design is that you swap weapons to shift your "role." Like with a Guardian. Staff is definitely a Support/Control oriented weapon. It is just better at that. But, with the weapon swap you can change to like a Greatsword and head in for Damage. That is what I was talking about when I was saying the combat was dynamic and adaptive. You don't stick to a particular role, and the weapon swapping is what enables you to shift between roles on the fly. A ranger having a Sword is viable and just as effective as a ranger with a Bow, you just fulfill a different "role" within your group. It is really just a matter of what you want to be doing and how you want to be doing it. In PvP, I think it will basically come down to fulfilling what your team needs, and since you can shift so quickly it is about adapting to changing circumstances in the match. This is what I was having a hard time describing earlier without sounding condescending. I think you really just kind of need to play it to understand exact how it works, but the weapon swapping is basically the best part of the combat... You literally go from being a support character one instant to charging the frontlines and decimating some fools the next. I think that GuildCast episode did a very good job of explaining what it is like, because he was talking about precisely this... Give it a listen(They get into it early so I suggest just listening to like the first 25-30 minutes, but if you want to get into the meat of the that particular part of the conversation, it sort of starts up at like 11:30 and continues for the next 10ish minutes).

EDIT: Also, GW1 PvP is still broken to shit. Attrition battles up in this game without recourse. Monks and anti-melee are still ridiculously over-powered due to the fantastic "balance" achieved. Yuck. I saw a battle between #1 and #4 where any of those players could be completely average and still pull off what they did. It was like watching a bunch of automatons. So much nostalgia for a game that is still played today...odd. /rant

Yeah... The game is "balanced," they just sort of balanced the fun out of it.

[Nemesis121]

GW2 PvP better have line of sight magic casting if it doesn't I will never play it, what I hated the most about GW is highlighting a player and just casting away at them, or a Monk healing behind a wall, I don't want to play that type of pussy PvP.

[Orayn]

GW2 PvP better have line of sight magic casting if it doesn't I will never play it, what I hated the most about GW is highlighting a player and just casting away at them, or a Monk healing behind a wall, I don't want to play that type of pussy PvP.

The vast majority of spells in GW2 are going to be either line of sight or manually aimed. They've also confirmed that all of spells that can heal other players are targeted at the ground.

[Jira]

OH DEAR GOD

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/pvp/pvp-overview/

New trailer here:

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/media/videos/

http://download.guildwars2.com/ItyFj...MV_HD1080P.wmv

Watch that direct feed, good god!

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Charr starting area footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxPiJKiKeGY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRWVD7XkXtw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFpBzY3ZhpM

[Keasar]

Player-Run Tournaments: These tournaments will be customized by players, allowing for great flexibility and unique bragging rights.

Awesome. :D

When a player takes a character into PvP, they are granted access to all the necessary skills, items, etc. Characters are set to the maximum level, putting everyone on an even playing field. This makes player skill more important than time invested in a particular character. When you take your character back to the PvE environment, you return to the skills and gear you had there, but the game will save your last PvP setup. You'll also be able to store templates for builds. This way, you can try out new stuff in PvP but still easily return to your familiar builds. Each profession will load into PvP with a starter template that allows new players to have a competent build without needing to delve into detailed skill selection, item selection, or other tweaks. However, these more detailed customization options will be available for players who are more comfortable with the system.

I love you ArenaNet. :D

[Dexa]

that looks like a huge step back from what they already achieved in gw1 :(

[Keasar]

that looks like a huge step back from what they already achieved in gw1 :(

Really? :(
I think it sounds alot greater then what they did in Guild Wars 1, they got everything going on. Tournaments at all times (even start your own ones), easy to start pickup play and more competitive play for organised groups. Maps of all kinds and different gamemodes. How is it all a step back?

[Helmholtz]

Definitely seems like a lot less variety in terms of game modes.

[Avocado]

That new trailer is fucking amazing

[Pendulum]

The Battle of Khylo – Jonathan Sharp on PvP (official site)

[Pendulum]

Gamescom boss battle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxPiJKiKeGY Did they really let IGN play that event alone? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRWVD7XkXtw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFpBzY3ZhpM

Wow. IGN needs to hire a video producer.

[Morkins]

Not so hot on the idea of having capture points in every match, but I can live with it... Definitely encourages split tactics. Need to see a match now. I don't inherently disagree with it, but it has to prove itself.

Damn... First thing they have shown where I don't necessarily agree with their choice right away. It isn't "awful" but it just isn't showing many inherent benefits beyond making the PvP easier to get into.

Love the tournament and pick-up play options though. Just the game mode that is kind of iffy... Capture Points are so meh(They certainly didn't help Alliance Battles). Though maybe with just 3 of them it will work...

[Jira]

Really? :( I think it sounds alot greater then what they did in Guild Wars 1, they got everything going on. Tournaments at all times (even start your own ones), easy to start pickup play and more competitive play for organised groups. Maps of all kinds and different gamemodes. How is it all a step back?

Honestly I'd agree, something for everyone is something that developers usually never focus on. I love the structured PvP options they're giving us.

[Jira]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/ncsoft...medium=8964519

Live demo in 2 min.

[Pendulum]

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/ncsoft...medium=8964519 Live demo in 2 min.

Auf Deutsch. English demo at 16:30.

[GasProblem]

They're playing as a Charr Engineer now.

[Jira]

Blargh just the tutorial?

Well I'm fairly pleased with the character creation thus far. The intro to the Charr is damn awesome and I love that there's even 2 other intros that are different based on your legion selection. During the tutorial we see the Engineer learn a new skill, I wonder if this is merely determined by the amount of mobs killed or something else? The new dodge bar is in about the same area where the energy bar used to be, it's colored beige instead of blue and is thinner. The tutorial ends with a boss fight similar to the others we've seen, though in this adds will spawn probably based on a health percentage and the boss will make rocks fall from the ceiling in which you must avoid. They denote the rock fall areas with the standard AoE marker in red to show that it will harm the player. So in this short tutorial they manage to convey to the player the basic mechanics of combat, gaining a new skill, dodging, personal story, areas in which you're not supposed to stand in, and a dynamic event. All at level 1, bravo ANet.

[Vigilant Walrus]

Amazing. Hot Join PvP can be scaled from anywhere to 1 vs 1 to 10 vs 10! Excellent!


Now I can Duel my friends for fun in glroious gladitorial 1 vs 1:)

[FrontalMonk]

10v10? I don't even KNOW 20 people who play games. :O

[Dexa]

tomorrow:
12:40 Guild Wars 2 Showmatch
http://tv.esl.eu

[spirity]

I'm just reading up on a few things atm, watching videos etc and GW2 looks really great. I don't like pvp, I'm strictly a pve'er so is this game going to cater to my playstyle? I saw the video of The Shatterer and was blown away, but I'm a bit worried that pve content will be an afterthought and the focus is on pvp. Any truth in that?

[Jira]

I'm just reading up on a few things atm, watching videos etc and GW2 looks really great. I don't like pvp, I'm strictly a pve'er so is this game going to cater to my playstyle? I saw the video of The Shatterer and was blown away, but I'm a bit worried that pve content will be an afterthought and the focus is on pvp. Any truth in that?

Not at all. ANet is building a game for everyone, the dynamic event system is evidence enough that they're dedicated to a PvE game.

[spirity]

Not at all. ANet is building a game for everyone, the dynamic event system is evidence enough that they're dedicated to a PvE game.

Ah, good stuff, thank you.

Love the fact that they're pretty much throwing away the mmo rulebook. Its about time someone did. I'm an old EQ1 player, who's been playing pretty much the same game over and over and over again since EQ1 (its just called itself different names). Looking forward to a game that breaks a lot of the old paradigms.

[Jira]

Yep, you'd see an MMO here and there do one new feature but still played it safe. ANet is taking everything and throwing it out the window. It's a ballsy move, but it seems to be working and with them showing off their game CONSTANTLY it tells me that they're very confident in their product, more so than any other MMO I've seen post-WoW and I've seen them all.

[darkwing]

when is the stream in english?

[Jira]

when is the stream in english?

7:30pst/10:30est

[darkwing]

7:30pst/10:30est

thanks

[Dexa]

supposed to start now.

[Jira]

Streaming issues it would seem.

[Dexa]

Streaming issues it would seem.

ya - just saw 3 seconds of gameplay

[Spehornoob]

It really is amazing just how much of the standard MMO design they're completely throwing out the window. The first thing I read about this game was the dynamic event system, and it blew me away. The first major thing they revealed was the fact that they were entirely ditching the quest system, THE backbone of the gameplay in most MMO titles before it (aside from grinders), was a major statement which said "We're here to make a new kind of MMO" and "We're kind of out of our collective fucking mind".

Honestly, the ideas that they're putting forth, especially action combat and a word which reacts to each player, are things that I've wanted in MMO's for a long time. I don't know if it'll all be a success (in fact, I would imagine that some ideas could very well fall on their face), but I'll be damned if I'm not gonna support this kind of forward thinking.

And I typed this up because my stream isn't working. Sad face.

[darkwing]

stream is dead grrr

[Jira]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkH0G...layer_embedded

Charr Engineer starting area while you wait.

[spirity]

It really is amazing just how much of the standard MMO design they're completely throwing out the window. The first thing I read about this game was the dynamic event system, and it blew me away. The first major thing they revealed was the fact that they were entirely ditching the quest system, THE backbone of the gameplay in most MMO titles before it (aside from grinders), was a major statement which said "We're here to make a new kind of MMO" and "We're kind of out of our collective fucking mind". Honestly, the ideas that they're putting forth, especially action combat and a word which reacts to each player, are things that I've wanted in MMO's for a long time. I don't know if it'll all be a success (in fact, I would imagine that some ideas could very well fall on their face), but I'll be damned if I'm not gonna support this kind of forward thinking. And I typed this up because my stream isn't working. Sad face.

I've said it before, but its really about time they tore up the rulebook, -especially- the ridiculous way we're presented with quests.

I've sat and watched, at quest hubs, people coming into the area. Doesn't matter what game it is, they're all the same. The players run around, hitting up all the npcs with ! above their heads, and head out. They kill the first things they see, because without even reading the quest text, they know that mob is attached to one of the quests they picked up. After 20mins or so of slaughtering everything and anything they see, they head back to the npcs and hand in 10 bat ears, 10 wolf tongues and 10 bear asses. This is not bold exploration or high adventure we're talking about here. What makes it worse, is when theres an inbuilt quest helper. There's no decision making or thought process involved at all. It really is mind numbing. Rift is probably the biggest offender here.

I saw a video where ANet devs spoke about how they watched players during their alpha run past npcs who were waving at the player, asking for their help. When asked by the devs why they ignored the npcs, the player said "because they didn't have an exclamation mark over their head". The conditioning here is appauling, and I'm glad GW2 seems to be presenting their quest system more organically.

[Jira]

Yep, there's nothing fun about doing identical content that Bob did an hour before you and Sally will do 5 minutes after you. Dynamic content is what keeps people playing online games, static content gets boring really fast. Granted ANet can't pump out infinite content that is 100% unique and permanent, but I believe that the DEs are the next best thing. It will be so nice to go through a world that is always changing, even if the stuff you're seeing might be seen down the road days/weeks/months later, the point is at least it's not identical for every single person every 5 minutes. People won't be able to say "Oh yeah you gotta do this, then this, and finally this" because no one can be for certain what might be going on at any given time. It's been a long time coming, but the time for change in the genre is finally here and it will forever change how the genre is seen. I feel bad for anyone developing an MMO that is the standard theme-park model.

[An-Det]

The stream is going for me, but no sound.

[gunbo13]

Yes, there is a stun. Doesn't last very long and you can dodge the next attack if you time it right, but there is a stun.

That's probably the end of AoE KD chaining then. That's not necessarily a bad thing but I would hope more powerful spells, especially elites, would have more ability then a surprise one hit. The wiki site is blocked for me right now but I'm pretty sure eles have MS. Now, if there is a trait that can cause a snare with MS? That might be something. But, how to snares even work with dodging? Can't you just substitute lack of foot speed with dodge chaining? It's not like you are going to dodge slower, floating in mid-air. Maybe dodging is disabled or has increased mana drain on snare?

It honestly sounds convoluted as fuck. I haven't read much about these types of questions but I also didn't scour the entire internets.

Edit - Yep.

Good. Body blocking was absolute nonsense.

Yeah. Less of an issue with "baiting attacks" since they can just be mobile while attacking anyway. The Dodge does this a lot better than just standard kiting, but you can do it with just standard kiting...

That's actually a very good thing. Dodging chaining on ranged attacks would be awfully silly. You would have PvP players rolling around the hills 50 feet away like idiots. Dodging should be reserved for melee and spell catches.

A ranger having a Sword is viable and just as effective as a ranger with a Bow, you just fulfill a different "role" within your group. It is really just a matter of what you want to be doing and how you want to be doing it. In PvP, I think it will basically come down to fulfilling what your team needs, and since you can shift so quickly it is about adapting to changing circumstances in the match. I think that GuildCast episode did a very good job of explaining what it is like, because he was talking about precisely this... Give it a listen(They get into it early so I suggest just listening to like the first 25-30 minutes, but if you want to get into the meat of the that particular part of the conversation, it sort of starts up at like 11:30 and continues for the next 10ish minutes).

I'll take a listen after work.

I understand the roles and it sounded interesting since they revealed the idea. However, role balancing is what I was getting at. With PvP you know how far we dig deep into the combat. The first thing you do is take out the trash. You ditch 90% of the skills, non-sense weapons, and start abusing the best mechanics. You'll probably see plenty of dodge abuse, silly glitching, etc... It is inevitable. The role idea is different though since it is more balance related then most areas.

If a ranger is more powerful with a bow then a sword, you will likely see a bow. If the sword has a condition skill that adds to your build, you will see the sword as utility with a swap back to your primary. If the sword actually has overpowering skills, then you will see the new ranger thumper equivalents in GW2.

On one hand, it sounds cool. A ranger throws out bow attacks, cripples an opponent, and then runs in for the finish. It is very film-esque. On the other hand, it doesn't make much sense in PvP unless it devolves into death-matching or team spread DPS only. You might as well let the warrior come in and beat the shit out of your target. You still need team dynamics right? Also, I have never seen a ranger in GW1 that ran out of a need for the bow. They never had run-away issues like warriors and even had block stances for defense. A ranger in GW2 sounds odd to stray from this idea. Just stay back and go crazy with your bow, right? Will your team be so un-versatile that you need an advanced range character to go in and condition up the target?

All of this only really applies to PvP though. In PvE, ALL of this makes sense. You want the range to be versatile for targeting. But once you add the human element, the logic is lost. Bringing in some utility? Sure, that add ups. Like a ranger being able to pile on an additional condition that the rest of the team doesn't have with a sword. However, that is the equivalent of just adding an extra skill to the primary bar. That isn't true weapon balance, which is what I'm having issues visualizing.

I could be wrong but the more versatility you add, the more of a bitch it is to balance it. I also wouldn't want it to be over-balanced so that a ranger is a ranged and up-close machine making a warrior look pathetic. Or a warrior who is a gun marksman and knight of the round at the same time. It sounds very PvE centered right now with the setup. I would have preferred if the secondary weapon was mandated as utility rather then a separate role. Like a ranger taking out a sword to block incoming melee or daggering them up before retreat. That sounds much sharper.