[TheNatural]

Thanks for your reply. I feel redeemed that at least one person commented. Especially the OP for this thread. :) It’s appalling how the Japanese government has mishandled this whole disaster. The Soviet Union did a better job of closing off wide areas of land and preventing sales of products from affected areas yet a supposed 1st world government refuses to do anything. This is all logic defying BS.

Then again, the Soviet Union also covered it up, lied to the liquidators about what was going on, and there a tens of the thousands dead who went to to clean up that mess. The ones still alive and disabled for life and living with cancer got thrown under the bus and they get no help. It works great if you have control of your entire country to do whatever they ask without really knowing what's doing on.

I watched a little of CBS Evening News yesterday and they did a trial run of cleaning up a school inside the zone that was evacuated - they basically just took the first foot of top soil and were burying it on site. Supposedly the area they have to clean is the size of Connecticut. I don't see how this is going to get done.

This stuff doesn't hit the news because you can't see radiation, there's nothing tangible there, and after a disaster happens, the radiation there just stays. Even Chernobyl is still a dangerous place, they have yet to replace the concrete sarcophagus 25 years later when it's badly needed.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0...2.html#s233577

[Upsidedown Fuji]

That's what makes radioactive contamination so scary. You can't sense it without a measuring device most people don't have access to. Whats even more scary is the out of sight out of mind mentality that's occurring.


Has Fukushima been forgotten already? I hope not.

[speculawyer]

That's what makes radioactive contamination so scary. You can't sense it without a measuring device most people don't have access to. Whats even more scary is the out of sight out of mind mentality that's occurring.

And not only that, but when you inhale or ingest a radioactive particle and get cancer from it decaying inside your body and bombarding adjacent cells with radiation, you have absolutely no way of conclusively linking it to a specific source such as Fukushima.

[ElectricThunder]

As bad as it is, the story is waaay out of the news cycle in general due to lack of "dramatic" events that most media can try to make a buck off and the general stories political and otherwise since then. It is similar to the Gulf situation here in the states that will result in some "hey, what's going on with the serious illness and such?" years down the line that'll be hand waved comparably, though that bubbles up here and there out of token efforts since like Fukushima the responsible parties have yet to even begin to come close to bearing the full brunt of responsibility---our media is not good at dealing with long-term impact situations, only the immediate can register any concern to "inform" folks.

Tepco continues to sound scummier and scummier...fairly unreal that they still have the swagger they do.

What a damned mess...

[Upsidedown Fuji]

Here is the story I refer to... and another one with more details here.
On the heels of the largest nuclear disaster, the Japanese nuclear agency and government seem to have learned nothing at all. Outside of poor engineering and proper disaster prevention measures and planning, age may have been a big factor in the catastrophic failure of the Fukushima nuclear power plant. Despite this fact, in unique cases, the government is willing to look past the downsides of having an old powerplant if they pass (toothless) stress tests. Whether these particular stress tests are accepted internationally is another story but the Japanese government seems to be comfortable to continue as if nothing happend and maintain the status quo.

I am not absolutely against nuclear power, I do think it has its place if handled properly, but with Japan's running track record of laxed security measures, engineering oversights, and scandalous coverups it is clear the Japanese government is out of touch with current times. I believe that under strictly followed guidelines, a properly operated nuclear reactor can last well beyond the 40 year mark as many already have and continue to operate across Japan and the US but this is Japan we're talking about...

I think a small nation like Japan is not taking the risks of another Fukushima scale disaster seriously enough. If another reactor were to fail in a similar manner that FukushimaI did, most of Japan would be blanketed in fallout and we'd have one of the largest human experiments on our hands as it would be nearly impossible logistically to relocate Japanese in affected areas.

I hope more people speak out against the status quo government heads concerning nuclear power and expansion like what happened yesterday at the announcment of this news. The Japanese media really downplayed the circumstances surrounding the public hearing about the recent stress test results shrugging off the public audience members that spoke up during a PUBLIC hearing *questions are allowed*. Anyhow, the public was shut out of the meeting in the end because the people running the show didn't like being thrown serious questions. Go media and police for taking the wrong side. Those "protesters" weren't disorderly at all and had every right to be there and ask the questions they did. sigh.

TLDR; Japanese government fails to learn from Fukushima and is trying to continue on as nothing happened. People are waking up but are still in the minority and their words go nearly unheard if it weren't for alternative sources of information from internet resources like twitter, blogs, and YouTube.

[speculawyer]

The great PBS show Frontline just did a special on Fukushima.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...r-aftershocks/

[ThoseDeafMutes]

and theres a tens of the thousands dead who went to to clean up that mess. The ones still alive and disabled for life and living with cancer got thrown under the bus and they get no help.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here. The WHO estimates that ~4000 people will eventually die from Chernobyl, and that ~50 have done so already, all of them highly-exposed rescue workers.

And not only that, but when you inhale or ingest a radioactive particle and get cancer from it decaying inside your body and bombarding adjacent cells with radiation, you have absolutely no way of conclusively linking it to a specific source such as Fukushima.

You don't need to 'conclusively link' it though, because you can get a solid estimation of the increased incidence by comparing rates of various cancers to the values in surrounding areas (and the national means). The kind of cancer that this kind of exposure results in is mostly thyroid cancer, which, fortunately, is highly treatable.

[A Black Falcon]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/28/wo...t-says.html?hp
Has this not been posted yet? It's from yesterday.

An independent study of the Japanese government's reaction to the disaster was released. The article's interesting, read it.

The biggest criticism it has is that they feel the government erred by not telling the public the truth about how bad things were, which was a big problem for sure. However, on the other hand it did do some things right behind the scenes, like forcing Tepco to go back to the plant and not abandon it. Also, they did consider having to evacuate Tokyo if other nuclear plants closer to Tokyo suffered disasters too.

[TheSeks]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/28/wo...t-says.html?hp Has this not been posted yet? It's from yesterday. An independent study of the Japanese government's reaction to the disaster was released. The article's interesting, read it. The biggest criticism it has is that they feel the government erred by not telling the public the truth about how bad things were, which was a big problem for sure. However, on the other hand it did do some things right behind the scenes, like forcing Tepco to go back to the plant and not abandon it. Also, they did consider having to evacuate Tokyo if other nuclear plants closer to Tokyo suffered disasters too.

Whole entire thing sounds like a fiasco. They didn't know what to do because TEPCO, the Administration, and the US were all saying so many things to the prime minister. Crazy.

[FlashFlooder]

I was just re-watching some of the news footage from back when this was happening. It's downright scary how many quacks were given a national platform on which to lie, speculate, and just generally talk about things they clearly aren't qualified to talk about.

One clip, in particular, stands out. It was from right after the hydrogen explosions, and they've got this "professor" (of what?) pointing at the explosions and saying: "you can clearly see fission occurring here and here".

It was, for me, a sobering reminder of just how full of shit the media can be.


In other news, I've learned a LOT more about what went on during this incident. A lot of what was being speculated on during those initial weeks turned out to be way off.

[teruterubozu]

I was just re-watching some of the news footage from back when this was happening. It's downright scary how many quacks were given a national platform on which to lie, speculate, and just generally talk about things they clearly aren't qualified to talk about. One clip, in particular, stands out. It was from right after the hydrogen explosions, and they've got this "professor" (of what?) pointing at the explosions and saying: "you can clearly see fission occurring here and here". It was, for me, a sobering reminder of just how full of shit the media can be. In other news, I've learned a LOT more about what went on during this incident. A lot of what was being speculated on during those initial weeks turned out to be way off.

Probably Michio Kaku. I lost all respect for that dude when he went all alarmist on Fukushima.

[pestul]

Is Arnie Gunderson still spouting negative about everything nuclear?

[speculawyer]

Is Arnie Gunderson still spouting negative about everything nuclear?

When did you stop beating your wife?

Arnie calls it as he sees it. He is an nuclear guy but he does work for the anti-nuke side. However, his comments tend to be very well-supported and he refuses to over-state the situation even when people goad him on.

[speculawyer]

I was just re-watching some of the news footage from back when this was happening. It's downright scary how many quacks were given a national platform on which to lie, speculate, and just generally talk about things they clearly aren't qualified to talk about.

Ironically, we can also go back and look at your postings where you said they would soon re-open the Fukushima plant.

Glass houses . . .

[FlashFlooder]

Ironically, we can also go back and look at your postings where you said they would soon re-open the Fukushima plant. Glass houses . . .

really? find me one.


Did I hurt your feelings at some point? Seems like whenever I make a post you're always right there, trying to discount what I say. You're grasping at straws here with this false accusation. Posting my opinion on GAF (which again, you're incorrect about) is not even in the same league as spouting BS on the national news.

[speculawyer]

really? find me one. Did I hurt your feelings at some point? Seems like whenever I make a post you're always right there, trying to discount what I say. You're grasping at straws here with this false accusation. Posting my opinion on GAF (which again, you're incorrect about) is not even in the same league as spouting BS on the national news.

Quoting for record. I'll dig around later.

[FlashFlooder]

Some pics of the "shower curtain" (my snark) going up to reduce airborne radioactive particles from escaping. http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-...chi-091711.htm

I'm LTTP with this (just went back and re-read the last page or so that I missed), but this structure is being built around containment primarily to give the operators a way to monitor hydrogen and radiation emissions coming from containment. With the lids blown off, they really have to no way to accurately measure these, and these are the best indicators they've currently got to figure out what's going on inside the reactor.

Also, the current timeline just to remove the fuel from the cores is something like 10-12 years.
They have gotten as close as they currently can to confirming that Units 1 and 3 both suffered partial melthroughs, but currently believe Unit 2 fuel is still contained in the RPV.
Also, I did not realize this but only 2 of the 48 nukes in Japan are currently in operation. This number will likely fall to 0 within the year.

[FlashFlooder]

Quoting for record. I'll dig around later.

So... it's been a couple days, what you got?

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So... it's been a couple days, what you got?

Doesn't seem like anything.

[FlashFlooder]

It's just weird to me because speculawyer claims to be so fascinated and interested in this event; yet, anytime I share any insight I have from studying this stuff first-hand he immediately (and unsuccessfully) tries to jump down my throat.

[AAequal]

Found interesting book that goes bit into Japanese nuclear industry.

Contemporary Japan: History, Politics, and Social Change Since the 1980s

The world’s most serious nuclear accident since the Chernobyl meltdown in 1986 occurred in Tokaimura in September 1999. This small village, about 70 miles from Tokyo, is known as “Nuclear Alley” because it is home to 15 nuclear-processing facilities. In 1999 workers at a uranium- processing plant accidentally triggered a runaway chain reaction that lasted for 20 hours in a facility that had no containment barriers. Mistakes in preparing nuclear fuel caused an accident that was not supposed to happen. A stunned nation learned that the accident occurred while the workers were transferring enriched uranium in stainless steel buckets and mixing the uranium by hand and then pouring it into an open holding tank. The fail safe high-tech safety procedures lauded by nuclear industry proponents were ignored in favor of manual mixing of highly dangerous and unstable radioactive materials. The workers erred in the quantities of the solution they mixed, instead of using processing equipment at hand that had automatic controls to prevent such an accident from occurring. Investigators discovered that the workers were actually following company instructions in violating safety protocols. Since there would be no risk of an accident if workers abided by these protocols, there was no contingency plan for such an accident and no form of containment to protect area residents from the radiation. Despite three previous nuclear mishaps at Tokaimura, public authorities were slow to react. The town authorities had no contingency plans and firefighters arrived without protective clothing because they were not informed about the nature of the accident. It took 2 days to arrange proper medical care for the three workers directly exposed to the nuclear fission and two of them died from their injuries because the hospital designated for treatment of radiation victims was not prepared to handle such cases. In 2002 the Mito District Court fined JCO, the company operating the nuclear fuel facility, JPV1 million (about $10,000) and its president an additional JPY500,000 ($5,000) while issuing suspended prison terms of two to three years for the six managers prosecuted. The cost of nuclear negligence, thus, proved rather modest. This exposure of official bungling and the consequences of a business more concerned about profits than safety left the public even more skeptical about a nuclear program that has been plagued by safety flaws, radiation leaks, shutdowns, fires, falsification of inspections, and cover-ups.

In the summer of 2002, revelations about extensive falsification of safety records over the previous decade involving potentially dangerous problems in a number of the nation’s aging nuclear power plants indicated the low priority accorded public safety. In the aftermath, 17 reactors were shut down for a year to recheck safety systems and perform necessary maintenance and repairs. Amazingly, dozens of high-level industry executives knew of the problems and participated in a well-orchestrated cover-up to falsify inspection and repair records and certify the safety of power plants where engineers had found fissures that could prove dangerous if left unattended. More stunning was the initial handling by the Ministry of Economy, Trade, and Industry (METI) of the whistleblower’s report about the falsified safety records. A foreign subcontractor who participated in the inspections and found the problems later discovered that the results of his inspections were ignored and subsequently falsified. Later he reported these criminal acts to METI, the government ministry with oversight responsibilities for the nuclear power agency, and was again ignored. Moreover, ministry officials apparently alerted the power companies of the whistleblower’s identity and efforts to expose their negligence. The problem was identified as how to handle the whistleblower as opposed to responding to the allegations by investigating wrongdoing, making repairs, and ensuring public safety. The media eventually blew the lid on this case, forcing the government and power industry to do what they should have done in the first place: put safety first. Ironically, the cover-up was motivated by a desire to avoid raising public concerns about nuclear power and avoid the costs of plant shutdowns that have been the financial bane of the industry. Those concerns and costs rose substantially due to this failure to comply with existing regulations. Yet again, the public learned about the need for better oversight and the low level of corporate and government ethics that lay at the heart of this scandal. In considering how Japan is changing, it is significant that this story ever came to light. As in so many other areas of life in Japan, there is a great deal more openness about topics that were once taboo or suppressed. Alas, inadequate maintenance and inspections carries real consequences, claiming the lives of five workers in 2004 at the Mihama nuclear plant. They were scalded to death when exposed to steam leaking from a corroded pipe that had not been inspected since it was installed in 1976. Tests on the pipe after the incident showed it had lost 85 percent of its thickness, something that could have been discovered in an inspection. Nine months before the accident, a subcontractor had informed the operators about the urgent need for such inspections, but his warning was ignored. Regulations did not require regular inspections of secondary cooling cycle steam pipes so they weren’t inspected. This in a country where every car more than 3 years old is required to undergo extensive and expensive safety checks every other year. The culture of safety that should be intrinsic to nuclear power operations appears lax in far too many instances in Japan – an institutionalized complacency in industry and government that raises legitimate environmental concerns.

In Japan, Kashiwazaki has come to mean “close call.” On July 16, 2007 a 6.8 magnitude trembler jolted beneath the world’s largest nuclear power complex located in Niigata Prefecture in a place that was not supposed to have a tectonic fault. This earthquake serves as a vivid reminder of the risks generated by nuclear power, especially in zones of seismic risk. The good news is that a mega-disaster did not occur and, thanks to design safety margins, the seven reactors with a capacity of 8,000 MW were not damaged by an earthquake that exceeded all assumptions in the design specifications. The three reactors in operation and a fourth in start-up mode did shut down automatically as designed. Kashiwazaki had been shut down previously in 2002 because of falsifying safety data. Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO) reassurances about the negligible risk associated with this incident rang hollow in a nation accustomed to the nuclear utility industry’s lack of transparency, tardy notifications, cover-ups, and mishaps. TEPCO informed local government authorities about the radioactive leakage nearly 9 hours after the earthquake. Industry advocates emphasize the effective functioning of nuclear-related safety equipment and the absence of damage to the reactor buildings. Critics have called on the government to shut down some one-third of the nation’s 55 nuclear reactors for more robust inspections to investigate and reassess seismic risks in light of the lessons drawn from Kashiwazaki; the tremors were more than double the design benchmark. Nobody knows how many reactors may have been built on similarly flawed assumptions. The discovery of a fault beneath Kashiwazaki’s nuclear reactors has also raised concerns about relying on power companies to select and assess site suitability. NHK aired an investigation featuring interviews with the staff that were at the plant when the quake hit. The supervisor explained that the crisis control room door jammed because of the earthquake, meaning that he and his staff were unable to enter and monitor the situation. Instead they set up a whiteboard in the parking lot and used their private mobile phones to maintain communications and monitor the seven reactors spread over　the complex. The supervisor admitted that the absence of effective centralized crisis control and poor communications with local authorities could have turned a dangerous event into a more serious disaster. Sometimes it is good to be lucky. There are grave concerns about seismic science and the government’s credibility on safety. In 2005 a judge ruled in favor of TEPCO in a case filed by local residents of Kashiwazaki to revoke the license to build a nuclear reactor at the site. The judge ruled that the scientific evidence overwhelmingly proved that the plaintiffs’ assertion – that the plant was vulnerable to an earthquake due to a hitherto undetected fault – was baseless. Proof is in the eye of the beholder, but clearly this faulty judicial ruling has been a black eye for seismic evaluations conducted by the nuclear power industry.

Deregulation of the utility industry is putting pressures on operators to boost profits at the expense of safety. So just as Japan’s aging nuclear power plants, many entering their fourth decade of operation, are in more need of inspections, maintenance, and repairs, bottom-line concerns are forcing cutbacks in safety measures. Given various mishaps, cover-ups, and a culture of deceit in the nuclear power industry, there is considerable public unease with this turn of events.’ The government mandates that every nuclear power plant shut down once a year for an inspection, and in the pre-deregulation era this typically lasted 3 to 4 months. Cost-cutting measures, however, have drastically shortened inspection times to as little as 6 weeks and operators seek further reductions in costly downtime. They are also seeking to extend the shelf life of their plants to 60 years, double what experts thought prudent when they built the plants. In the context of fewer and shorter inspections, and a record of falsifying safety reports, the implications are unsettling in light of the potential harm of an accident.

Some disturbing info indeed.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

It's just weird to me because speculawyer claims to be so fascinated and interested in this event; yet, anytime I share any insight I have from studying this stuff first-hand he immediately (and unsuccessfully) tries to jump down my throat.

He has a bad bad habit of doing that.

[FlashFlooder]

So, the last nuclear reactor in Japan was just taken offline:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/07/wo...nds/index.html

I hope, for their sake, that they have a mild summer. Otherwise, they will be feeling the shortage.

[Shouta]

So, the last nuclear reactor in Japan was just taken offline: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/07/wo...nds/index.html I hope, for their sake, that they have a mild summer. Otherwise, they will be feeling the shortage.

Yeah, I heard about that when they did it a few days ago. While understandable that the public wants the reactors down after what happened, it's only going to make Japan suffer in the long run. They don't have the means to replace that energy in the long run at the moment. It isn't just an economic problem but a human problem as well. Japan can get very hot during the summer and because of the cultural inflexibility, it can lead to more and more people suffering because of the heat.

[Upsidedown Fuji]

I am not wholly against restarting a handful of reactors eventually but Noda and his cronies are trying too hard to push the restart of the Ooi reactor without any substantial changes to safety measures. The computerized stress tests and empty promises of the deadbeat nuclear power plant operators isn't quite enough to green light a restart just yet for me and the mayor of Osaka as well. They're being too hasty and are thinking too much about the immediate needs rather than future ramifications. Saying doesn't go as far as actually doing. For example the time table to get the Ooi's reactor to Noda's government's peliminary OK'd specs will take between 3-5 years to get most modifications out of the way. Heck the Ooi reactor has their main operation center underground onsite. Great idea for flooding. One is being planned to be built on the surface nearby to meet new standards. Too little too late I say.

I think the quotes of the main energy supplies of Japan, especially the one that services the Osaka-Kyoto region pulled their numbers out of the air aren't realistically figuring in how much people could actually conserve during peak operational hours. The kanto (Tokyo) region proved they could persevere going way beyond the government's recommended power cut standards. Energy supply was still thin but somehow we made it through nearly unscathed (plenty of cases of heatstroke were reported due to the over eagerness of people to conserve energy.)

The only time period when Japan will most likely be critically low on power will be the peak mid afternoon hours between 1-3pm when the sun is at its highest and hottest point of the day. All other times of the day there should be enough energy to not have to worry as much about conservation. I feel a lot of the strict conservation (setsuden and keikakuteiden) measures were to push the public into thinking that the npps needed to be online immediately or Japan is doomed. This is not the right way to do it.

I think Japan has a great opportunity to become the forerunner in alternative renewables because of recent circumstances. One thing I know for sure, Japan cannot continue as it did before 3/11. 54 (now 50) useable reactors in Japan is way too much for a country slightly smaller than the state of California.

I do understand Japan doesn't have many natural resources to produce energy on their own at the moment but I feel that necessity will spur innovation. Also, if I've learned one good thing about the Japanese, they work well together when resources are times are rough. The conservation efforts of the Tepco service area during the summer of 2011 is a great example of that.

[Upsidedown Fuji]

The Japanese government will be taking temporary control over Tepco in exchange for a 1 trillion yen infusion. By takeover it really means they will be the largest shareholder now but their balance sheets will still be separate. Many figured this would happen sooner or later. I honestly think 1 trillion isn't even close to enough for the decommissioning of the failed reactors at Fukushima I. An article can be found here.

A lot of the "lost" income Tepco has experienced over the past year+ will be recuperated through a 10% raise in domestic electricity fees during daytime peak hours paired with opening up more sealed off areas to allow people to move back home which in turn will make Tepco not liable for any reimbursement to those parties.

On April 1st 2012 (lol?), Tepco also raised business electric rates 17% in the new yearly contracts they rolled out. There was a lot of confusion around this particular measure as Tepco didn't clearly explain why they were doing it and who exactly was affected by it. There were quite a few companies with contracts that weren't expired with original rates before the 17% hike that were almost bullied into thinking they had to take the rate hike as well even though their current contracts hadn't expired yet.

All in all Tepco probably won't change much. The Japanese government is now even less transparent than Tepco ever was. Now they have license to screw people more efficiently.

[Shouta]

Japanese government. Ugh.

[HK-47]

So, the last nuclear reactor in Japan was just taken offline: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/07/wo...nds/index.html I hope, for their sake, that they have a mild summer. Otherwise, they will be feeling the shortage.

This seems shortsighted, like something that will be discussed as a mistake years from now.

[Upsidedown Fuji]

I feel a rush to restart reactors without a thorough review of what happend at Fukushima along with properly deployed security fortifications is also a very short sighted reaction.

Japan is a very energy hungry nation after years of government promotion of nuclear power's surplus energy adding to the idea that everything needs to constantly feed off the grid from neon lights to poorly implemented heating/cooling systems.

The most likely temporary halt of all NPPs in Japan will most certainly not hurt Japan in the long run. It will be more of an inconveninece to many including myself who lives in the TEPCO service area.

One way or another the Nuclear industry and Japanese government will push hard enough to get their way one way or another regardless of public opinion.

[FlashFlooder]

I feel a rush to restart reactors without a thorough review of what happend at Fukushima along with properly deployed security fortifications is also a very short sighted reaction. Japan is a very energy hungry nation after years of government promotion of nuclear power's surplus energy adding to the idea that everything needs to constantly feed off the grid from neon lights to poorly implemented heating/cooling systems. The most likely temporary halt of all NPPs in Japan will most certainly not hurt Japan in the long run. It will be more of an inconveninece to many including myself who lives in the TEPCO service area. One way or another the Nuclear industry and Japanese government will push hard enough to get their way one way or another regardless of public opinion.

Agree with this post 100%. Better to be safe than sorry, and I don't think this means the end of nuclear altogether in Japan.

Also still waiting for you to back up your accusations, speculawyer.

[speculawyer]

So... it's been a couple days, what you got?

Sorry . . . I forgot about this.

Here are the posts . . .
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthre...5#post26546155


Hari mentioned Michio Kaku talking about entombing the site.

You guys weren't kidding when you were talking about Kaku going pretty alarmist. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540...30567#42130567 He says to use the Chernobyl option and entomb the entire site

I responded with this:

Well isn't that pretty much a given at this point? I don't see them re-opening it as a power plant. What else are you going to do? Open up a sea side resort there?

Then you said this:

No, it's not a given. No one knows how much contamination occured.

I found that a bit shocking. This was after the explosions of reactors 1 and 3. It was pretty clear that there was no way the place was going to reopen. The hydrogen gas from the explosion comes from the reactor inside the containment. Clearly the containment wasn't holding everything in before the explosion. I doubt the containment was in better shape after the explosion.

JWong suggested rebuilding but I pointed out that such a plan would not go over well.

Dismantle the site and rebuild a new plant? Even if the completely cleaned the site out, do you think it would be politically possible to put another one right there? The site has been proven to have some drawbacks.

Hari responded to my earlier comment saying.

Well isn't that pretty much a given at this point? I don't see them re-opening it as a power plant. What else are you going to do? Open up a sea side resort there? Yeah I kind of agree with him. Why aren't they doing this now?

To which you responded with

Opening a seaside resort? It's a little soon for that.

Now that really floored me. WTF? You later played that off as a joke.


Now flash-forward to today. Is Fukushima reopened? Will it reopen? LOL, No. Not even close. Not only that . . . but every single one of Japan's 54 nuclear plants are currently shut down.

Now my memory was not correct . . . you did not suggest it would soon reopen. But you did seem confident that it would be fine in due time. You were clearly under-appreciating the damage done to both the plant and the Japanese population and down-playing the situation.

Japan also just effectively nationalized TEPCO because this bankrupted them.



So I think I had a better handle on the final outcome than you did.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So I think I had a better handle on the final outcome than you did.

I doubt that.

[squidyj]

I doubt that.

I fucking despise agreeing with Manos :l

[speculawyer]

I doubt that.

Do you have pictures of the seaside resort? It is quite lovely in the spring.



http://enformable.com/2012/02/japane...nearly-a-year/

[Tacitus_]

This seems shortsighted, like something that will be discussed as a mistake years from now.

Won't even take years. Their industry will feel it very soon and normal citizens will feel it the moment they'll need to use more electricity.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Do you have pictures of the seaside resort? It is quite lovely in the spring. http://blog<b>.alexanderhiggins</b>....reactor-86081/

Nice Source lol
Feds Declare Martial Law Red Zone Around Chicago Loop For Nato Meeting

The page is a collection of conspiratorial nonsense, he might as well be Alex Jones.

[speculawyer]

Nice Source lol Feds Declare Martial Law Red Zone Around Chicago Loop For Nato Meeting The page is a collection of conspiratorial nonsense, he might as well be Alex Jones.

I cited it for the pictures. Not for anything else. But I guess you need to change the discussion.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I cited it for the pictures. Not for anything else.

Federal Reserve Clears Communist China For First Takover Of US Bank
You also linked to the article
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/201...reactor-86081/

Keep digging that hole.

[speculawyer]

Federal Reserve Clears Communist China For First Takover Of US Bank You also linked to the article http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/201...reactor-86081/ Keep digging that hole.

Why do you keep linking to other articles?

Look . . . here is a link to Stormfront.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/

You posted in thread linking to Stormfront. Obviously Manos is a neo-Nazi! Derp.

[mrklaw]

I am not wholly against restarting a handful of reactors eventually but Noda and his cronies are trying too hard to push the restart of the Ooi reactor without any substantial changes to safety measures. The computerized stress tests and empty promises of the deadbeat nuclear power plant operators isn't quite enough to green light a restart just yet for me and the mayor of Osaka as well. They're being too hasty and are thinking too much about the immediate needs rather than future ramifications. Saying doesn't go as far as actually doing. For example the time table to get the Ooi's reactor to Noda's government's peliminary OK'd specs will take between 3-5 years to get most modifications out of the way. Heck the Ooi reactor has their main operation center underground onsite. Great idea for flooding. One is being planned to be built on the surface nearby to meet new standards. Too little too late I say. .

what safety measures do they really need? I thought the main failure at Fukushima was the diesel generators going down, meaning the plant couldn't maintain cooling or shut itself down. Surely you could just ensure you have adequate security for secondary power and you'd be good to go (massively simplifying I guess)

[DBT85]

what safety measures do they really need? I thought the main failure at Fukushima was the diesel generators going down, meaning the plant couldn't maintain cooling or shut itself down. Surely you could just ensure you have adequate security for secondary power and you'd be good to go (massively simplifying I guess)

Diesel generators went down because the diesel fuel tanks got washed away AFAIK. Had the tanks not been above ground they wouldn't have gotten washed away and so they probably would have kept the generators running.

Also AFAIK modern reactors will shut down in an emergency like this even if everyone inside died instantly.

The incredible thing for me is that the reactors withstood that earthquake in the first place.

[Upsidedown Fuji]

what safety measures do they really need? I thought the main failure at Fukushima was the diesel generators going down, meaning the plant couldn't maintain cooling or shut itself down. Surely you could just ensure you have adequate security for secondary power and you'd be good to go (massively simplifying I guess)

I wish it were as simple as you put it but it really isn't. Not even close. It isn't limited only to offsite secondary power to keep the reactors cool. The issues at Fukushima I's reactors 1-4 barely scratch the surface of what's wrong with Japan's Nuclear policies up till 3/11/11.

Here are some off the top of my head

-On site above-ground spent fuel pools like Fukushima I+II and possibly more. Basically a plan to dispose and secure spent fuel never got proper planning. They were banking on cycling the fuel through their failed Monju fast-breeder reactor which as been defunded by the government within the past year.

-Onsite disaster control rooms are in poor locations like the one in Ooi that happens to be UNDERGROUND (prone to flooding like Fuku I). This will not be rectified till 3-5 years later after the owner of the Ooi plant completes the room. Till then there is no secure, nuclear hardened room just incase shit happens. This is one of the NPPs the government is pushing hard to restart.

-Underengineered seawalls (many NPPs on the coastline are currently constructing larger walls but they will not be complete till a year or so from now)

-Many plants are built upon known active fault lines. Some of those faults were newly found after the big quake.

-No directions have yet been given to change the way NPPs are monitored and managed. So the mismanagement policies that were employed pre 3/11 are mostly intact for now.

-No offical national Nuclear regulation service has been assembled although one has been planned and proposed to take over the one that was run by the Ministry of Economy (or similar wording). There is still no timeline to when the government will agree on passing the responsibility off to the new regulation body.

I am sure there are more, possibly even bigger reasons than the ones I've listed off the top of my head. Things are a bit more complicated than getting generators in although it may have helped make Fukushima I's disaster a lot less worse than it happened to be. All I do know is what happened after 3/11 and how it screwed over a big swath of northern Japan because of years of the government and NPP operators playing fast and loose with security and preventive measures. :/

[FlashFlooder]

speculawyer, you're really grasping at straws. I still don't see where I supposedly said they would re-open the plant.

Although I'm admittedly biased, I tried really hard to stay fair and stick to the facts while covering what was going on, back then. I was trying to balance out some of the hysteria that was going on at the time, but I don't think I was cheerleading as you are trying to claim I was. I think that shows in the quotes you selected, where all I was trying to point out was that it was too early to go for the entombing option. And guess what, they still haven't done this, more than a year later...

You can't come up with anything of substance. And for you to claim you had a better grasp on the situation than I had is just laughable, really.

Now my memory was not correct . . . you did not suggest it would soon reopen. But you did seem confident that it would be fine in due time. You were clearly under-appreciating the damage done to both the plant and the Japanese population and down-playing the situation.

and... is it not?

The hydrogen gas from the explosion comes from the reactor inside the containment. Clearly the containment wasn't holding everything in before the explosion. I doubt the containment was in better shape after the explosion.

let me teach you something, son. They now believe that the hydrogen was actually coming IN from the exhaust system, which is shared between units. So, speculate (heh) all you want, but I know a lot more about this than you ever will. This is not the only thing you're wrong about, but I don't have the time.

[FlashFlooder]

I wish it were as simple as you put it but it really isn't. Not even close. It isn't limited only to offsite secondary power to keep the reactors cool. The issues at Fukushima I's reactors 1-4 barely scratch the surface of what's wrong with Japan's Nuclear policies up till 3/11/11. Here are some off the top of my head -On site above-ground spent fuel pools like Fukushima I+II and possibly more. Basically a plan to dispose and secure spent fuel never got proper planning. They were banking on cycling the fuel through their failed Monju fast-breeder reactor which as been defunded by the government within the past year. -Onsite disaster control rooms are in poor locations like the one in Ooi that happens to be UNDERGROUND (prone to flooding like Fuku I). This will not be rectified till 3-5 years later after the owner of the Ooi plant completes the room. Till then there is no secure, nuclear hardened room just incase shit happens. This is one of the NPPs the government is pushing hard to restart. -Underengineered seawalls (many NPPs on the coastline are currently constructing larger walls but they will not be complete till a year or so from now) -Many plants are built upon known active fault lines. Some of those faults were newly found after the big quake. -No directions have yet been given to change the way NPPs are monitored and managed. So the mismanagement policies that were employed pre 3/11 are mostly intact for now. -No offical national Nuclear regulation service has been assembled although one has been planned and proposed to take over the one that was run by the Ministry of Economy (or similar wording). There is still no timeline to when the government will agree on passing the responsibility off to the new regulation body. I am sure there are more, possibly even bigger reasons than the ones I've listed off the top of my head. Things are a bit more complicated than getting generators in although it may have helped make Fukushima I's disaster a lot less worse than it happened to be. All I do know is what happened after 3/11 and how it screwed over a big swath of northern Japan because of years of the government and NPP operators playing fast and loose with security and preventive measures. :/

This is also correct. Although having the diesels would have greatly reduced the severity of the event, the plant was an absolute disaster after the tsunami hit. Such a shame that something as simple as an adequate seawall could've prevented the majority of it. My personal opinion is that nuclear should not be used in earthquake-prone areas, especially not on the coast.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

let me teach you something, son. They now believe that the hydrogen was actually coming IN from the exhaust system, which is shared between units. So, speculate (heh) all you want, but I know a lot more about this than you ever will. This is not the only thing you're wrong about, but I don't have the time.

Damn...well then again when a nuclear engineer has to deal with a layman grasping at straws (and not checking where he cites things from), you can't blame him for not wanting to spend too much time on clear and obvious things.

Thank you as always for your factual input against a lot of baseless speculation.

[CiSTM]

Anyone gone through the official report yet? Some sources are quoting that the meltdown was caused(started) by the earthquake and not by the tsunami. This would be pretty big news if true since many plants are build on fault lines. Also seems all plants are going to be restarted.

[Upsidedown Fuji]

Anyone gone through the official report yet? Some sources are quoting that the meltdown was caused(started) by the earthquake and not by the tsunami. This would be pretty big news if true since many plants are build on fault lines. Also seems all plants are going to be restarted.

There have been quite a few independent reports and even some official. but all the report seem to have varying theories to why/ how it happened. I am sure they all have some truth to them.

It also doesn't help much that t e p c o continues to be tightlipped with most important data and information. We may never know exactly what happened especially now that they will be absorbed by the very inward and secretive Japanese government.

[Upsidedown Fuji]

The Oi assembly in charge of considering the restart of the NPP there has come to their own conclusion that it’s safe and imperative to restart two of the reactors there. This decision comes nearly a month after the national government also approved restarts based on their own data collected from meetings and simulation results. While restarts are not official, this seems to be one of the final nails in the coffin of opposition to restarting the plants in Fukui.

An article on this topic can be found here.
Well, that didn't take much time. I still think the government and NPP operators are being unnecessarily hasty with this decision. I'm not really surprised though. I had a feeling doubts of safety and current power capacity would be willfully ignored for immediate worries of job losses (in the nuclear industry), donations to cities from NPP operator funds, and power shortages brought on by offline nuclear reactors in Japan.

I hope for the sake of the people in charge of this decision and the power plants that nothing bad like Fukushima I happens again in Japan. I'd expect they would most likely have their heads on a stake (not in a literal sense) if anything were ever to happen to Lake Biwa near Kyoto. All the fresh water in that area would be irreversibly tainted if even one reactor failed as catastrophically as the ones in Fukushima did.

Is it really a risk worth taking; the risk that could potentially destroy Japan's most famous city and one of the world's treasures, Kyoto? Time will tell I suppose.

[Upsidedown Fuji]

It looks like it’s been all but confirmed that the Japanese government has decided that the Oi NPP in Fukui will be restarted by the end of June this year. An article going into further detail can be found here.

I figured a more official decision would occur sooner or later and it seems its sooner. This is coming off the heels of a premature Okaying of some computer controlled stress tests that have many discrepancies with real world scenarios and variables...

Yesterday's decision was made before and without deciding a new nuclear watchdog/survey agency. It all smells as if it’s a purely political decision. Since 3/11/2011 and up till the day of me writing this post, nothing, absolutely nothing has been done to change how NPPs operate and no new safety procedures have been agreed upon or suggested. Looks like business as usual here folks.

Would it have really hurt to risk rolling blackouts for just one season till the new nuclear safety board was decided along with more research into how to prevent another Fukushima from happening again in Japan? Nope, the short term needs for money and expendable power sources are #1 to the future safety of NPPs in Japan. I find this all to be very short sighted. But I figured the government would bend to the will of the nuclear village. There's way too much money and influence for them to resist.

I wouldn't be against the restart of a handful of plants in the future but the way the Japanese government is going about starting up NPPs today, it really seems as if they've learned absolutely nothing in the past year plus. So much for thinking this out rationally.

[Shouta]

While the protocols and safety measures need to be reworked, it's highly unlikely another nuclear disaster will occur very soon. A quake or tsunami of that strength isn't going to happen to cause a bunch of things to fail. That would leave human error but you'd have to have incredibly incompetent fools (or crazies) running the plant to do so, especially now.

As much as I think the Japanese government is full of idiots, I don't think they're that stupid.
It's almost 100% likely that it's a political decision but it's likely for the larger picture. Whether or not it's really needed, we won't know for at least several years but things really change fast for a country when it starts happening.