NeoGAF

Nuclear Muffin · (10-31-2011, 02:06 PM)

Originally Posted by Jintor:

*complete achievement in Xenoblade*

*rewarded with XP, SP and other stuff*

Huh.

I... I kinda like this.

They're not OS level system wide (and thus, there's no meta game/e-penis aspect to it, nor does it become the focus of the game design itself). That makes all the difference.

eshwaaz · (10-31-2011, 02:07 PM)

Originally Posted by added_time:

They definitely mess up online multiplayer. Tons of people run around doing stupid things online that make them lose the match just to unlock some pointless achievement.
It doesn't just ruin that match for them, it ruins it for everyone else playing as well.

I never play multiplayer so this hadn't crossed my mind - definitely a legitimate point.

Tain · (10-31-2011, 02:08 PM)

Good developers don't need them, good players don't need them. Harmless.

Sneds · (10-31-2011, 02:10 PM)

Originally Posted by eshwaaz:

I never play multiplayer so this hadn't crossed my mind - definitely a legitimate point.

The first Gears of War was plagued by this. It had 'Kill 100 enemies in ranked matches with x' for each weapon in the game. This meant that some people spent all their time focusing on killing enemies with specific weapons rather than trying to win matches. This was made worse by the fact that the achievements specified ranked matches.

cacildo · (10-31-2011, 02:13 PM)

I like achievements (trophies, since i have a PS3)

But they feel kind of empty. I mean, let me get this straight: you get trophies and the only thing you "win" by doing this is having a number next to your name when online?

And the more games you BUY and more games you play more trophies you get and that makes you somehow.... better? Is that it?

no no no no...

I think nintendo should take the chance (since the next system to be released is on their hands) to make achievements MEAN something.

I dont know, the more Nintendo Achievements i get the more "Nintendo Red Coins" i get, and that alllows me to buy some special itens, like themes to the system menu, special itens for Miis, etc.

FreeMufasa · (10-31-2011, 02:14 PM)

Originally Posted by EatChildren:

Oh, and for what its worth, they completely fail to enhance or add to the gaming experience for me. If I'm not enjoying the game itself, then I won't enjoy the achievements, and even if I am enjoying the game the concept of striving for and unlocking achievements gives me no joy. I see them as nothing more than an arbitrary checklist of pointless shit that appeals only to OCD gamers.

However, Naughty Dog's work on Uncharted and Uncharted 2 was nice to see, as they coupled the trophy system with old school in-game cheats, rewards and unlocks. Completing a trophy worked towards unlocking content I could play and watch, and thus they were made worthwhile. Sad to see them ruin that with Uncharted 3.

WTF? Please don't tell me they're gone in U3....

Midou · (10-31-2011, 02:14 PM)

I usually try to go out of my way to earn a few in a game, ones that I may go out of my way for an extra 20 minutes to get, but I've never tried to get 100% or go for really tedious ones.

I don't mind them sticking around, some people love earning them, so why take it away?

gutterboy44 · (10-31-2011, 02:14 PM)

Originally Posted by Stumpokapow:

I like achievements for a number of reasons:
*well articulated points*

I love trophies/achievements for similar reasons. And like you touched on, it doesn't mean that all of them are great or add to the gameplay. Well implemented trophies that encourage you to explorer all aspects of the game and be rewarded for it are awesome.

My only complaints about trophies are when they are absurd grind fests that purely rely on a tremendous amount of time to unlock and when they are ridiculous online related win streaks etc, that encourages exploitation and quitting prior to losing more than actual skill.

I would really like to see trophy/achievement specialists develop as a permanent role at dev studios. I believe that they can add more and more to gaming as they become more refined.

thehypocrite · (10-31-2011, 02:16 PM)

Originally Posted by SmokyDave:

Get rid of any tied to online multi-player.

The only negative things about them is this. If an individual user wants to persuit their completion it should depend only on him and not in his interactions with other players, servers being shut down and what not. keep them singleplayer and offline only.

Dragonzord · (10-31-2011, 02:17 PM)

Originally Posted by EatChildren:

I have a friend who refuses to buy any game, or even use a game on his PS3, unless he intends to get all the trophies. It has prevented him from playing numerous enjoyable games that I know he'd otherwise like, because his entire gaming focus is now centred around an arbitrary profile score and not on the game content itself.

He has a problem, and it makes me sad.

Wouldn't he have the same problem with 100%ing something?

Galdelico · (10-31-2011, 02:19 PM)

I don't hate achievements/trophies per se: I just blame them since they subtly introduced this 'low score = bad/superficial gaming experience' common opinion.

I genuinely don't care about gamerpoints/tags, so I'd be totally cool if next gen would get rid of them.

The Technomancer · (10-31-2011, 02:20 PM)

Originally Posted by zlatko:

I will say it felt odd completing the BF3 campaign on PC and not getting shit for it. I thought I'd at least get some kind of dog tags for going through on hard, but nope. It wouldn't have been a complete waste if the campaign had been stellar, but it was far from that, so no online internet points or glitter was sort of shitty.

I'm fine with achievements, especially the ones that now on 360 net you avatar outfits, since I don't want to spend money on virtual outfits for him.

But do you see a bit of a theoretical problem with that? You would have been fine with playing a mediocre experience if you were given virtual bling at the end? Shouldn't the experience itself be what's valuable?

frequency · (10-31-2011, 02:22 PM)

I don't think the idea of Trophies/Achievements is bad. In fact, I think a lot more people get a lot more out of their game because of them. I just wish I could turn off the damn pop up interrupting people like me who don't care at all about them.

Inability to ignore getting them isn't the fault of Achievements though. That's your fault for being you! :p

Stumpokapow · (10-31-2011, 02:23 PM)

Originally Posted by frequency:

I don't think the idea of Trophies/Achievements is bad. In fact, I think a lot more people get a lot more out of their game because of them. I just wish I could turn off the damn pop up interrupting people like me who don't care at all about them.

You can in 360, but turning off notifications means you also miss social notifications.

reggie · (10-31-2011, 02:23 PM)

If you have a problem with achievements, the problem is the not achievements themselves, the problem is you. They change nothing and are easily ignored. If you have OCD and MUST collect them, that's all on you.

Dragonzord · (10-31-2011, 02:23 PM)

Originally Posted by Galdelico:

I don't hate achievements/trophies per se: I just blame them since they subtly introduced this 'low score = bad/superficial gaming experience' common opinion.

I've never encountered that. I mean, me and my brother made a little mini game out of beating each others gamerscore, but it's just harmless fun not a testament of skill. And we don't play crappy games just for achievements, so I guess there's that.

It's just general high score to me. It's a fun little competition. I've also fallen fairly out of love with achievements lately. I still think they should exist though. Also, to the above, comparing a carrot on a stick to cigarettes? Really?

Duane Cunningham · (10-31-2011, 02:25 PM)

Originally Posted by Grecco:

The idea would be to finish ME2 once then finish it again to get that achievement. Not finish it once specifically for the achievement. Silly article imo. Achievements extend a games life not force you to play it in a specific way.

This is the proper advice, not just for ME2 but for every game. There's never a good reason to max out achievements on the first run.

To me, getting a platinum or 1,000 GS isn't a requisite at all, but if I really like a game, it's a nice excuse to go back and play it some more. I only have three or four platinums, and they're for games that have the sweet spot of really fun to play/trophies weren't that far out of the realm of something I'd do anyway. Dragon Age, RE5, MW2, Uncharted 1&2, etc. It's a nice way of saying "I liked this game a lot".

frequency · (10-31-2011, 02:25 PM)

Originally Posted by Stumpokapow:

You can in 360, but turning off notifications means you also miss social notifications.

I don't see turning off notifications as a solution. I want to know when a particular friend comes online or sends me a message.

dankir · (10-31-2011, 02:25 PM)

What happened if achievements were removed from games next gen? Would the achievement whores still play games?

Seriously the guys with like 250k gamerscore out there, would they be driven to play games still?

Number45 · (10-31-2011, 02:26 PM)

Originally Posted by Stumpokapow:

You can in 360, but turning off notifications means you also miss social notifications.

Same goes for PS3 I think, you have a single option that turns off all notifications.

IonicSnake · (10-31-2011, 02:27 PM)

I think it depends on the individual. I know some who refuse to play PS3 games if they don't have trophies or are hard to platinum.

I see trophies as a bonus thing and if they are reasonable I will hunt them but if there is a game I want then I'm not letting trophies decide if I'm getting it or not.

Edit: MP trophies should go away though.

GraveRobberX · (10-31-2011, 02:28 PM)

Originally Posted by dankir:

What happened if achievements were removed from games next gen? Would the achievement whores still play games?

Seriously the guys with like 250k gamerscore out there, would they be driven to play games still?

I'll still be playing, but will I miss out on some titles... Yes

Sometimes trophies enhance the game

Barberetti · (10-31-2011, 02:29 PM)

They're annoying. Ooh, I've killed 100 scorpions in Fallout: New Vegas! Thanks for notifying me of that completely useless piece of information Bethesda. Fucking fantastic. I'm pretty sure you guys don't give a shit about that, and I know I don't, so why continue to keep me up to date with this useless drivel?

Why is it so hard for devs to give gamers a choice with shit like this? All it would take is for games to ship with an option in the menu that disables achievements, then everyone would be happy. It's a shame that choice seems to be frowned upon these days though.

WoW is the worst offender, or at least it was when I last played it. Not only did they hook some achievements into the professions so that in order to learn some recipes you had to do achievements, but when you complete them it plasters a huge message right in the middle of the screen. Even worse, loads of messages when you complete multiple achievements .... like when you're in a fucking boss fight and suddenly you can't see the boss because all these achievement messages are flying up the centre of the screen. Great implementation there Blizzard, you fucking dip-shits.

mr afghan jones · (10-31-2011, 02:30 PM)

Originally Posted by EatChildren:

I have a friend who refuses to buy any game, or even use a game on his PS3, unless he intends to get all the trophies. It has prevented him from playing numerous enjoyable games that I know he'd otherwise like, because his entire gaming focus is now centred around an arbitrary profile score and not on the game content itself.

He has a problem, and it makes me sad.

This. A thousand times this.

I have a similar friend who has passed up on (from memory):

Crackdown
Shadow Complex
Bad Company 2
Modern Warfare 2
Just Cause 2

Plus others, all because the achievements looked too hard. He also played the single player of COD4 and never touched multi as there were no cheevos. It took about 2 years of straight nagging for me to get him to play Mass Effect and Dead Rising.

The worst part is that he just rushes through games by doing stupid boosting sessions or private matches against himself to unlock grindy MP cheevos and then wont want to play the MP with any actual people as he is sick of it.

Its just a shame when people would rather sit in a game grinding for a pointless cheevo than join a MP game with a friend.

So in that respect, fuck achievements.

Spiffy_1st · (10-31-2011, 02:31 PM)

Originally Posted by Duane Cunningham:

To me, getting a platinum or 1,000 GS isn't a requisite at all, but if I really like a game, it's a nice excuse to go back and play it some more. I only have three or four platinums, and they're for games that have the sweet spot of really fun to play/trophies weren't that far out of the realm of something I'd do anyway. Dragon Age, RE5, MW2, Uncharted 1&2, etc. It's a nice way of saying "I liked this game a lot".

That's the way I see it. The fact that developers can see which trophies/achievements you've gotten makes it feel even better, like you're showing the developers that you really like what they've made.

TekDragon · (10-31-2011, 02:33 PM)

The writer was struggling because he was having an identity crises. "I don't want to follow achievements because I think they're either counter-productive or a silly waste of time, but I LOVE achievements and can't resist pursuing them!"

Achievements are at their most fun when you, honestly, don't give a damn about them. That means you don't look (or even want to look) at the in-game or out-of-game list of achievements and you don't bother (or even want to bother) reading posts or discussions about them.

At that point achievements become fun again. Whenever you get one, it's enjoyable. You got a little prize for playing the game the way you wanted to play it! You weren't trying to grind it out and, more importantly, you're enjoyment isn't tampered by thinking "Ok, next up is Achievement 14".

People that buy a game, look through the achievement list, and then start the game with the intention of grinding out as many achievements as possible - they disturb me. It's like they've grown up in some weird alternate dimension and didn't learn how to enjoy a game.

Next thing you know they'll start adding achievements to literature.

iconoclast · (10-31-2011, 02:33 PM)

I only like achievements that are actually challenging; the rest are just kinda pointless fluff. Stuff like S-ranking Dante Must Die in DMC4, 1-life clearing Hard Corps Uprising, completing all challenges in Street Fighter 4, etc. Those are the type of achievements that games need more of.

Plus the guy in the article is complaining about Ubisoft trying to reward him for not sucking.

Stumpokapow · (10-31-2011, 02:34 PM)

Originally Posted by dankir:

What happened if achievements were removed from games next gen? Would the achievement whores still play games?

Seriously the guys with like 250k gamerscore out there, would they be driven to play games still?

I think they would have a pretty varied reaction. Some of them would feel slighted and burnt that they invested effort in a robust profile only to have it dismantled. Maybe they'd switch console brands, maybe they'd game less, maybe they wouldn't game at all. The hardcore gamers from past generations would probably keep hardcore gaming, although maybe they'd buy games later or play fewer games in certain genres.

A friend of mine is a big gamerscore guy (in the gamerscore range you're describing). Last generation he bought 2 copies of every PS2 RPG--one sealed, one to play. So he's always been a huge gamer. He buys more games now, but eBay and EB and used games have made things cheaper than ever so I'm not sure that he spends more money. He still plays RPGs---he's got 1000 in Blue Dragon, for example. He does seem to play more movie games and more sports games, but then again I think he follows sports more on a personal level than he did last gen. Also, it's difficult to compare someone's current gen collection with their past gen collections, because I think we all sort of prune games in waves. I have more 360 games than PS2 games, and one of the reasons for that is because I got rid of all my marginal or completed PS2 games that I didn't want to replay, while I haven't really done much of the same purging current gen.

But also achievements won't disappear, they'll expand.

... and there's nothing stopping programmers from adding achievements to classic games, so even if gaming as a whole stops releasing new products, there'll still be more achievements to get.

Mlatador · (10-31-2011, 02:37 PM)

If you don't like them, don't try to get them and only focus on the game. If, for some reason (because you NEED to prove it to yourself or orthers), you just have to get all the achievments even if it lessens your fun with the game, then it's your own fault. Just stop it and think about why achievements are so important to you.

I personally don't care about achievements at all.

Curufinwe · (10-31-2011, 02:37 PM)

Originally Posted by Stumpokapow:

You can in 360, but turning off notifications means you also miss social notifications.

I really wish I could turn off social notifications but leave Achievement notifications on. It's very annoying to be going for a hard to get Achievement and to keep hearing the Achievement unlocked noise just because XXDumbFriendXX keeps signing off and on and MS bizarrely uses the same sound for both events.

MikeE21286 · (10-31-2011, 02:37 PM)

Achievements are only as harmful as you let them be.

For me they are not some sort of e-peen where I compare my score, but only a log of my gaming accomplishments/actions.

Grisby · (10-31-2011, 02:40 PM)

Harmless fun. I love them and hope they carry over to whatever next platform comes up.

Lord-Audie · (10-31-2011, 02:40 PM)

Originally Posted by EatChildren:

I have a friend who refuses to buy any game, or even use a game on his PS3, unless he intends to get all the trophies. It has prevented him from playing numerous enjoyable games that I know he'd otherwise like, because his entire gaming focus is now centred around an arbitrary profile score and not on the game content itself.

He has a problem, and it makes me sad.

He sounds like a great guy like i would like to meet.

bigdaddygamebot · (10-31-2011, 02:41 PM)

Idiotic article is idiotic.

"These darn achievements are undeniably undeniable! Now that I have snuck a peek at these terrible things and realize that they are oh so obtainable...I MUST try to obtain them!"

It must be the achievements and not the person right?

Achievements/Trophies are as stupid and wrong as the person trying to achieve/complain about them.

I get more out of my games now because of achievements/trophies. After playing through a game once...a game I normally wouldn't play through again, there are times that I will play through in a different fashion just to obtain the achievements that intrigue me.

I would be disappointed if they are removed for the next gen of systems.

Nori Chan · (10-31-2011, 02:43 PM)

I am an achievement whore.

It is so satisfying hearing that bleep bloop when you get 100% in a game or even just pressing the start button. It gives me a reason to play through everything. If I weren't an achievement whore, then there would be no point in me playing COD in Veteran. It would definitely save a couple years off my life if I did doe

flyinpiranha · (10-31-2011, 02:44 PM)

Originally Posted by The_Technomancer:

Sure, but its also pretty meaningless. That's right up there with "play for five hours" or "beat chapter 3" achievements.

Meaningless is pretty much the definition of achievements and trophies.

Lord-Audie · (10-31-2011, 02:46 PM)

I wonder how hard is it to ignore something that you don't like.....

I guess looking at the OP... Too hard...

AlimNassor · (10-31-2011, 02:46 PM)

Originally Posted by 2&amp:

Achievements are the worst thing to come of this generation. Worse than DLC. They do undermine the spirit and community aspect of many games as mentioned.

More importantly, I no longer have the ability to share gamesaves with friends as a result. Screw that.

how? I don't get it how they undermine and destroy gaming.

I'm absolutely fine with Achievements. I have no real opinion of them, they don't hurt the game at all.

gutter_trash · (10-31-2011, 02:47 PM)

Originally Posted by 2&amp:

Achievements are the worst thing to come of this generation. Worse than DLC. They do undermine the spirit and community aspect of many games as mentioned.

More importantly, I no longer have the ability to share gamesaves with friends as a result. Screw that.

bolded the biggest negative impact achievements had on current gen gaming

Most non-trophy PS3 games permitted copying game saves via usb and bringing them to your friends' house (with all characters, maps or cars unlocked)

that is now did since trophies kicked in on PS3

----------------

Originally Posted by AlimNassor:

how? I don't get it how they undermine and destroy gaming.

I'm absolutely fine with Achievements. I have no real opinion of them, they don't hurt the game at all.

fighting games with locked characters requiring to unlock em, so it fucks up tournies or parties where you must lug the entire console itself containing the saves instead of just usb key or mem card

Count of Monte Sawed-Off · (10-31-2011, 02:47 PM)

I like achievements, especially if they unlock something in the game which they rarely ever do. Mass Effect was awesome about doing this.

Achievements should be left out of multiplayer though. People are more interested in getting the achievement than actually playing the game which gets annoying for teammates.

sajj316 · (10-31-2011, 02:48 PM)

Originally Posted by Grisby:

Harmless fun. I love them and hope they carry over to whatever next platform comes up.

There is no doubt that it will be carried over to the next platforms. There are Steam achievements, OnLive achievements, GFWL achievements, etc ... it's not going anywhere.

Zhaanie · (10-31-2011, 02:50 PM)

I don't really see the problem when they're entirely optional. I myself have never cared for achievements of any kind.

bigdaddygamebot · (10-31-2011, 02:50 PM)

Oh...and the term e-penis and the people that use it can die in a fire.

Originally Posted by Count of Monte Sawed-Off:

I like achievements, especially if they unlock something in the game which they rarely ever do. Mass Effect was awesome about doing this.

It's a shame they didn't continue with this.

Originally Posted by Count of Monte Sawed-Off:

Achievements should be left out of multiplayer though. People are more interested in getting the achievement than actually playing the game which gets annoying for teammates.

Achievements need to stay out of multiplayer.

Gooster · (10-31-2011, 02:51 PM)

I like achievements and will only get them if I feel like it's worth unlocking. I had so much fun getting those orbs in Crackdown.

One thing I hate is when a game update adds achievements for bonus DLC I have no intention on buying and negating my 1000/1000. :(

Regardless, they're all optional. The article seems to imply that it's some compulsory trigger the moment we see one unlocked which means GOTTA CATCH EM ALL and I don't agree.

Stumpokapow · (10-31-2011, 02:52 PM)

Sharing gamesaves was toast anyway; leaderboards and persistent profiles ensured that, not achievements. Consider that every Wii game with leaderboards or online profiles has locked saves that you can't share.

DangerousDave · (10-31-2011, 02:53 PM)

Play a game, finish a game, don't touch that game ever. I have enough money, a lot of games and very few spare time to spend.

I prefer much more playing a new game (or an old game that I didn't finish yet) than forcing me to do some item collection, killing in a row, play it in very difficult, etc, of a game that already finished and enjoyed.

Keepthechange · (10-31-2011, 02:54 PM)

I don't like multiplayer achievements that drive the community to grief one another, as far as single player achievements ? They absolutely push me to play games more than i usually would, I definitely wouldn't have scrounged up every treasure in uncharted 2 or played through on multiple difficulties, and the portal 2 trophies/achievements were an awesome addition, some even adding more depth to the story.

Stumpokapow · (10-31-2011, 02:55 PM)

Originally Posted by bigdaddygamebot:

Achievements need to stay out of multiplayer.

They don't need to stay out of multiplayer, developers just need to be mindful that anything that can be farmed will be farmed, and mindful that most of their games, no matter how hard they worked on them, will be dead multiplayer-wise within a few months. Gears demonstrated how you can implement achievements across multiple game modes.

The real problem is that if the achievement is "get 1000 kills", a majority of matches after a few months will be people standing a circle taking turns shooting each other.

Ken Masters · (10-31-2011, 02:56 PM)

I used to do it in the early days of 360, now the only achievements/trophies I bother to get are the ones I happen to get playing the game naturally

Melchiah · (10-31-2011, 02:57 PM)

I dislike the fact that you can't get 100% of the trophies without playing games on hard. playing games on hard difficulty, trying to get past infuriating parts over and over again, isn't something I'd call entertaining. I play games for entertainment, not to be frustrated. Leave the platinum trophy for those who want to play on hard, and let everyone else have a chance of getting 100%.