[RedRedSuit]

EDIT 19: On Sunday 11/27, patch 1.02 is up and should contain aiming and other aforementioned fixes. Release notes: http://www.naughtydog.com/site/post/...tch_102_notes/

The new aiming mode is NOT on by default and must be enabled in Options.

EDIT 9: This shit just got real. Post from Arne (of ND) in this thread:

IMPORTANT. Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY November 4? I know it's a lot to ask since we all have real lives (yeah, right, this is gaf), but that would be extremely helpful. If so, please PM me ASAP!

(Note: At least one guy has accepted. Possibly more -- people that PMed a bit later were turned away, so ND must have whom they need at the moment.)

(Feedback from the ND visit is at the bottom of this post.)

---

I made this thread for a few reasons:

- It's a real problem, as pointed out by many many people.

- The thread might provide a convenient place for any updates on this problem, for those who want to wait until it's patched (IF it's patched) and don't want to run into game-ruining spoilers in the OT.

- It will keep the problem talk away from OT, where other people can just talk about the other aspects of the game, which I'm sure they'll appreciate.

To summarize the problem as I understand (and have experienced) it:

The aiming (with L1) in the single-player campaign is... off. This should be immediately apparent as one receives the first weapon in the game, a silenced pistol. I have no scientific explanation of what EXACTLY is off, but the following seem to be true:

- The dead zone seems big, or maybe the initial acceleration is low. Starting an aiming motion seems oddly sluggish.

- The game tends to force perfectly-horizontal and perfectly-vertical aiming (getting it to aim diagonally seems difficult). Supposedly Uncharted 2 SP does the same, but it seems much less pronounced; perhaps due to the dead-zone situation above.

- The reticule tends to slow down when over an enemy, like some kind of auto-aim. This seems confusing and difficult to compensate for when lining up head shots.

- These problems, reportedly, do not occur in MP or coop.

- Uncharted 2 SP does not really have these issues, and it plays very smoothly.

So far, Naughty Dog's response has been on their official forum, by arne:

"We're looking into some other things that you've mentioned, but we just pulled up Unchated 2 here - it goes in a square too as described."

In other words, the bias towards horizontal and vertical aiming is present in Uncharted 2, though I feel it's not as pronounced, but they are looking into the general aiming situation.

It would be very nice if ND could update us here or elsewhere.

EDIT: Many people have reported that setting the aim sensitivity to max makes it more bearable.

EDIT 2: Reportedly auto-aim is less pronounced in Hard, however it is still strongly there.

EDIT 3: Here is the only comment on this, by ND:

http://forums.naughtydog.com/t5/Gene.../607411/page/2

We're looking into some other things that you've mentioned, but we just pulled up Unchated 2 here - it goes in a square too as described.

That's on 10-31-2011, 1:09pm. Again, this suggests that the "aiming is biased towards left-right and up-down" is probably not the real issue; more the dead zone and auto-aim. Either way, aiming is way sluggish, but ND has not commented on this further yet.

EDIT 4: Response from ND, 11-02-2011, 6:40pm, Pacific: http://www.naughtydog.com/site/post/...gun_mechanics/

Not sure it sheds much light on the issue. Basically, "it's by design." For now, at least, no patch for you.

EDIT 5: Later still in this thread, I asked Arne whether at least the strange auto-aim can be looked into (as the blog post does not address it at all). He said he has brought it up and may have an update later.

EDIT 6: Posted very early 11-3-2011, Pacific, a video demonstrating various issues to do with aiming, including Uncharted 2 comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcJ0WrhiUSM

EDIT 7: Later that day, Arne has stated they are looking into it, and that ND is *NOT* denying an issue (not confirming either).

I or we never denied there was an issue. We wanted to explain the changes that were there to add to and clear up any aspects of the debate. At no point did anything we wrote say "you're wrong, we're right, kthxbai" The fact that we went so far to detail the weapon system meant we were looking into it.

http://neogaf.net/forum/showpost.php...&postcount=430

and

Either way, we're looking further into the discussion around aiming and what could be behind it all.

EDIT 8: Another video courtesy of GAF: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARYIqfvswDU

EDIT 9: This shit just got real. Post from Arne (of ND) in this thread:

IMPORTANT. Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY November 4? I know it's a lot to ask since we all have real lives (yeah, right, this is gaf), but that would be extremely helpful. If so, please PM me ASAP!

EDIT 10: Arne says:

we're operating under the assumption that the issues being reported asbout aiming are not due to hardware configurations (except for that one input lag video - that's a separate matter).

EDIT 11: Friday afternoon Pacific time Arne said:

We had two folks in Awesomesauce and Cartridgeblower. Unfortunately, they made it out alive. We think it was really fruitful. Stay tuned.

EDIT 12: GAF feedback #1 by CartridgeBlower:

What up everyone. Didn't have time to come home and post my thoughts until now. We signed NDAs, but Arne just gave me the go ahead to post some thoughts, so here they are before the hypnotism pills they gave me wore off -- First off, the guys at ND were totally awesome and seemed to be fully genuine in wanting to get a fix together as soon as possible. I sat down and played with a couple tweaked versions of the new controls, and they were definitely more in line with the MP and UC2. They seem to have fixed much of the dead zone problems, and are adjusting the sensitivity so you can go even higher than what 100% is now. They were literally making changes ON THE FLY as we played, and asking us what we thought of them. They would tweak things like sticky radius, sensitivity, etc. Also, they mentioned motion blur is definitely getting fixed for SP. Very cool. They mentioned more about a patch coming out very soon, but again, Arne has told me not to give anything more specific away. All in all, I can say that while bringing Gaffers in might be a partial PR move, it didn't feel that way at all. From everything I could gather, they were genuine. I asked if they didn't notice the difference in control themselves, like many gaffers have been wondering, and they said they literally would sit employees down and give them different versions and they would not be able to tell. If the control code was messed up at some point, I don't know, but they are not taking these criticisms lightly at all. Overall, it was super cool to see how things like this get adjusted and tweaked. Arne, thanks a ton for being so cool, and thank Justin again if you see him on Monday!

EDIT 13: Feedback #2 by AwesomeSauce:

Sorry for not being able to reply right away guys. Was out and about. Anyway just repeating how awesome Naughty Dog were about this whole thing. They really are putting a lot of effort to get the aiming issue resolved. My buddy and I spent majority of our time there chatting with Justin Richmond about the controls. He had us play a level with the old controls, and replay it with the new controls. To be honest, the new controls did fix a lot of issues, but the big issue we agreed on was that the aim assist was too "sticky" and it caused a lot of the weird issues that we're complaining about. I felt that they still need to tune the precise movement while aiming even with the new controls as slightly aiming the analog stick would still cause weird acceleration issues that had you misjudge your shot. It also is awesome that Naughty Dog knew about the missing motion blur effect before i even said anything and that they're already working on patching it back in. Love me some motion blur specifically the per-object kind ;) Yeah, the whole time we were there it was surreal. It really was amazing how starstruck my buddy and I were about being inside their studio. I mean this is the house of Crash, Jak, and Drake lol.

EDIT 14: On 11/7, ND posted: http://www.naughtydog.com/site/post/...tch_101_notes/. Patch incoming within a day but addresses neither aiming nor motion blur. Do NOT freak out. There will almost certainly be a patch for those in the near future based on the above information. In fact:

EDIT 15: On 11/8, ND posted:

http://forums.naughtydog.com/t5/Mult...ve/td-p/646513

And don't worry, we are still hard at work on a full featured patch with lots of changes and fixes to various issues. We hope to have more info on the next patch by the end of this week or the weekend. Thanks!

EDIT 16: On 11/14, ND tweeted about the patch:

https://twitter.com/#!/ericmonacelli...49879791616000

it's coming very very soon.

EDIT 17: On 11/17, ND tweeted again about the patch:

https://twitter.com/#!/ericmonacelli...86519537938432

Patch notes very soon. It's a very detailed and big patch. We're in final rounds of testing.

EDIT 18: On 11/21 GiantBomb posted an editorial, with some statements from ND, on GAF's alleged (since there is no patch yet) contribution to the fix for this issue.

http://www.giantbomb.com/news/how-sm...ogs-game/3816/

Some interesting bits (emphasis mine):

“We took some time to investigate that internally because, again, we knew we’d made changes, but in all of our focus testing--probably about three months of straight focus testing--we never got any feedback the aiming was unsatisfactory to those people,” he said.

“We showed them a before and after without telling them which one was changed to see how they liked these alternate settings that our programmer had come up with,” said Meyer. “As part of that process, we iterated on what the feedback was and we were making changes on the fly, and changing different things from what we originally changed to get the right feel for the aiming.”

EDIT 19: On Sunday 11/27, patch 1.02 is up and should contain aiming and other aforementioned fixes. Release notes: http://www.naughtydog.com/site/post/...tch_102_notes/

The new aiming mode is NOT on by default and must be enabled in Options.

[arne]

IMPORTANT.

Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY NOVEMBER 4?

I know it's a lot to ask since we all have real lives (yeah, right, this is gaf), but that would be extremely helpful.

If so, please PM me ASAP!



(can we get this added to the OP?)

[pharmboy044]

I see now this is snowballing into Uncharted being unplayable and shit.

smh......

[jigglywiggly]

Are you actually going to SHOW them the code? :P

[sajj316]

IMPORTANT. Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY November 3? I know it's a lot to ask since we all have real lives (yeah, right, this is gaf), but that would be extremely helpful. If so, please PM me ASAP! (can we get this added to the OP?)

Now that's what I'm talking about. I would but I'm in NYC. GAF this is your opportunity to make a difference. Props to ND!

[RedRedSuit]

IMPORTANT. Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY November 3? I know it's a lot to ask since we all have real lives (yeah, right, this is gaf), but that would be extremely helpful. If so, please PM me ASAP! (can we get this added to the OP?)

Yowza.

Added to OP.

[ced]

My initial impression was that these were some of the worst controls in a shooter this gen. After a few chapters im getting heatshot trophies. I mean, issues are there but its still playable. you'd really be missing out on not playing.

That's great you adjusted, but the fact remains that when you move the stick at a diagonal direction the reticule goes apeshit and doesn't follow.

I just want a perfect experience, so I'm gonna hold out.

[hey_it's_that_dog]

IMPORTANT. Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY November 3? I know it's a lot to ask since we all have real lives (yeah, right, this is gaf), but that would be extremely helpful. If so, please PM me ASAP! (can we get this added to the OP?)

Admit it, you're just going to beat them up and put it on youtube!

[ViewtifulJC]

IMPORTANT. Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY November 3? I know it's a lot to ask since we all have real lives (yeah, right, this is gaf), but that would be extremely helpful. If so, please PM me ASAP! (can we get this added to the OP?)

ND is listening and wants to help make the game better. Too bad that's thousands of miles away from me :/

[arne]

Yowza. Added to OP.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

[Hazanko]

IMPORTANT. Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY November 3? I know it's a lot to ask since we all have real lives (yeah, right, this is gaf), but that would be extremely helpful. If so, please PM me ASAP! (can we get this added to the OP?)

That's a really cool idea.

[AwesomeSauce]

Oh snap!

I'm down to help out. Going to pm your right now arne.

[Always-honest]

^^
Here we go.

Nice.

For gaffers who go, please report.

[Ra1den]

This thread entertains me because people are so out of control and rabid about it (on both sides). The side that loves the game is feverishly is calling the other side loonies and going to no ends to defend the game. The side that isn't pleased with the aiming is exaggerating the situation and professing utter disappointment with the game, even though it is still more than playable and fun. Can neither of these "sides" really see the ridiculousness of this all? The idea of a giant thread and some conspiracy to unveil the truth? To rummage around following members and defending a product you had nothing to do with, even though there are clearly issues? This whole fiasco (on both sides) is just as bad as the 8/10 nonsense (for BOTH sides).

With all of the supposed "extreme reactions" supposedly going on, I have yet to see very many at all. I have, however seen some trolling, and people continually making the same statement you just made. Go figure. Maybe they should leave the thread, and we can keep focused on what is important (getting the controls fixed)

The most common reaction seems to be, "great game overall, poor aiming when compared to UC2 or multiplayer UC3." This is not overreacting at all. And for the people delaying playing it until it is fixed, good for them, they will play a game with aiming worthy of the standards that UC2 set.

[Wario64]

Damn, I wish I lived in Socal. Mainly just to have the opportunity to go to Naughty Gods studios.


I''ll quote for new page:

IMPORTANT. Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY November 4? I know it's a lot to ask since we all have real lives (yeah, right, this is gaf), but that would be extremely helpful. If so, please PM me ASAP! (can we get this added to the OP?)

[Boogalogist]

Wow...nice of ND team to reach out to the community like this.

/salute

[Ra1den]

IMPORTANT. Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY November 3? I know it's a lot to ask since we all have real lives (yeah, right, this is gaf), but that would be extremely helpful. If so, please PM me ASAP! (can we get this added to the OP?)

You guys rock, Arne. Wish I lived in Cali. I'm tempted to fly down, just for this :)

[gogogow]

Yeah, no matter the outcome, I appreciate what ND is doing now.

[FINALBOSS]

IMPORTANT. Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY November 3? I know it's a lot to ask since we all have real lives (yeah, right, this is gaf), but that would be extremely helpful. If so, please PM me ASAP! (can we get this added to the OP?)

Now this is developer dedication.

[Ra1den]

Can we get this request added to the thread title?

[hey_it's_that_dog]

IMPORTANT. Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY November 3? I know it's a lot to ask since we all have real lives (yeah, right, this is gaf), but that would be extremely helpful. If so, please PM me ASAP! (can we get this added to the OP?)

Today is November 3rd. Friday is November 4th. Fix this shit Naughty Dog! :)

[DevelopmentArrested]

wow that's incredible.

Personally I think the aiming is fine; i just wish the AI didn't always rush you.

[pharmboy044]

With all of the supposed "extreme reactions" supposedly going on, I have yet to see very many at all. I have, however seen some trolling, and people continually making the same statement you just made. Go figure. Maybe they should leave the thread, and we can keep focused on what is important (getting the controls fixed) The most common reaction seems to be, "great game overall, poor aiming when compared to UC2 or multiplayer UC3." This is not overreacting at all. And for the people delaying playing it until it is fixed, good for them, they will play a game with aiming worthy of the standards that UC2 set.

What about all the "no patch no purchase" statements going on in both threads?
There are people just trying to shit on this game because it's a Sony exclusive and someone supposedly found an issue with it. Yes that sounds like conspiracy theory shit but there definitely people out there who do things like this.

[Solo]

The Skyrim theme just crescendo'd as I read Arne's post. Good on ya, ND.

[Combichristoffersen]

Admit it, you're just going to beat them up and put it on youtube!

Kicking GAFfers in the teeth while yelling about kicking them to sleep

[BruceLeeRoy]

Alright any of you bitches going to man up :)

[arne]

Today is November 3rd. Friday is November 4th. Fix this shit Naughty Dog! :)

Great, now that I've been quoted a million times.

Kicking GAFfers in the teeth while yelling about kicking them to sleep

having gotten a few broken teeth myself, this would be sweet sweet revenge terrible!

[StuBurns]

Awesome, I hope this is fixed.

EDIT: Bigger news, Wario is a 50PPP guy, wow, you're dead to me.

[ced]

Arne can you guys not reproduce what's been shown? This is kinda odd, anyways thanks for looking into it.

[Ricky_R]

Whatever the outcome, I'm always amazed at how much ND tries to do for their fans and community.

I also hope that this can be resolved in a way that most of the people that aren't comfortable with the aiming, as well as those that had no trouble adapting to it, can feel satisfied with the result if any.

[lowrider007]

I'd go but I'm from the UK, although tbh I'd be a little scared Arne would punch me in the face for my rantings about this this problem.

Anyway good shot ND, I wonder what people will be doing, testing?, trying to recreate the problem?

[railGUN]

This thread has just achieved legendary status.

[TheKaeptain]

IMPORTANT. Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY NOVEMBER 4? I know it's a lot to ask since we all have real lives (yeah, right, this is gaf), but that would be extremely helpful. If so, please PM me ASAP! (can we get this added to the OP?)

If I actually had a problem with shooting I would do it.

[Gouty]

Arne can you guys not reproduce what's been shown? This is kinda odd, anyways thanks for looking into it.

This.

[arne]

Arne can you guys not reproduce what's been shown? This is kinda odd, anyways thanks for looking into it.

You'd rather us not have dialogue with all of you that's giving us this feedback?

That's not it at all. It's going to be better if we can talk it through with someone and work it all out live with the game in front of all of us as well.

[kneePat]

Arne can you guys not reproduce what's been shown? This is kinda odd, anyways thanks for looking into it.

They have said they play identical (UC2 and UC3), maybe its an isolated issue, so maybe whoever goes should bring their copy of the game and their console.

You'd rather us not have dialogue with all of you that's giving us this feedback? That's not it at all. It's going to be better if we can talk it through with someone and work it all out live with the game in front of all of us as well.

Does no one at ND feel this way about the aiming? Is this an intended design choice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARYIqfvswDU ?

[Salmonax]

IMPORTANT. Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY NOVEMBER 4?

This is awesome, Arne. Well done.

What about all the "no patch no purchase" statements going on in both threads? There are people just trying to shit on this game because it's a Sony exclusive and someone supposedly found an issue with it. Yes that sounds like conspiracy theory shit but there definitely people out there who do things like this.

I'm in the no-patch-no-purchase crowd, and I platinumed both UC1 and UC2. Demonizing either side of the issue is pointless.

[GoncaloCCastro]

ND are so awesome. Willing to take fans with constructive criticism to their offices so they can help them with the game after it has shipped is a whole new level of game development.

Serious congrats to ND and arne.

[Always-honest]

You'd rather us not have dialogue with all of you that's giving us this feedback? That's not it at all. It's going to be better if we can talk it through with someone and work it all out live with the game in front of all of us as well.

Indeed. Both games maybe.
Awesome gesture by you guys!

I'm in the no-patch-no-purchase crowd, and I platinumed both UC1 and UC2. Demonizing either side of the issue is pointless.

Indeed. I rather have my Uncharted experience as perfect as it can get. There is nothing i'd like to play more. But i WILL wait till something conclusive comes out of this.

[Snuggler]

will there be snacks?

[Victrix]

Respect +10

[V_Ben]

Damn Arne, above and beyond the call there. Wow.

[Grisby]

Cool that ND is doing this. Shows a developer cares. Too bad I'm so far away.

[Zefah]

Goddamn, Naughty Dog is awesome.

[Ricky_R]

will there be snacks?

hahaha

Probably with some E Coli.

[KingK]

They have said they play identical (UC2 and UC3), maybe its an isolated issue, so maybe whoever goes should bring their copy of the game and their console. Does no one at ND feel this way about the aiming? Is this an intended design choice http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARYIqfvswDU ?

I haven't tried it myself, but Jett said in the OT that he put in UC2 and tried it and it does the exact same thing when aiming.

I do not think it is, didn't affect my time with the game at all. I'm playing Uncharted 2 right now, it behaves exactly the same way. If you move the stick horizontally in a constant motion any vertical motion will be mostly ignored. Who complained then? Nobody. Now it's some sort of gamebreaking, no purchase until it's fixed "problem". Mountain out of a molehill.

I'm part of the crowd that hasn't had any problems. It felt a tiny bit different from UC2, (mostly because of the bloom reticle), but I adjusting in about 10 minutes and it felt fine and natural for the rest of the game.

[HalcyonTB12]

Im also in the camp that something is jacked with the controls. Cannot effectively make small diagonal corrections. Im almost done with the game and I've gotten used to it, but its definately there. All you have to do to see the problem is put slight pressure diagonally while aiming and notice that its either not moving(dead zone) or not moving in the direction you are holding.

[Represent.]

IMPORTANT. Is there anyone in this thread with these gripes that can make it to our studio in Santa Monica no later than NOON TOMORROW, FRIDAY NOVEMBER 4? I know it's a lot to ask since we all have real lives (yeah, right, this is gaf), but that would be extremely helpful. If so, please PM me ASAP! (can we get this added to the OP?)

:bow:

[RedRedSuit]

They have said they play identical (UC2 and UC3), maybe its an isolated issue, so maybe whoever goes should bring their copy of the game and their console.

They did not say they play identically. They said that certain aspects are exactly identical... not that the final result is. Bringing one's console and game might be a good idea, but only if they haven't reproduced it themselves. Arne's latest post seems to suggest they have and just want some outside confirmation.

I feel like a dillweed putting words in his mouth though.

Basically, at this point they seem on top of it. I presume they know what they're doing, especially since they're going this far to investigate it. Let's see how this plays out.

[LemonGremlin]

I am very hopeful right now :)