[Thunder Monkey]

Chinner...

You scarred my soul with that.

[rozay]

This can never be repeated enough... It's a simple perception flaw to group a large amount of people's voices into one and judge it as such. Unfortunately that's not just limited to online communities. Having said that, some forums will attract more of a certain type of person depending on a wide variety of factors so there might be a very slight larger group of people that share similar views than if you took a random group of people of equal size in the world. There's definitely a lot of strong reactions in here though... If these loud-voiced gamers weren't so negative and prone to judging this screw-up wouldn't have been such a big deal. And when ME3 comes around and the sales come in, it might turn out that it really didn't matter all that much. People complaining about choice: - As a developer you have to take into account both new-comers and people who have played the previous title(s). - There's only so much content you can develop in 2 years. Building consequences for two major different outcomes would result in a massive amount of double work. I don't think they did a bad job with ME2 but maybe they shouldn't have allowed you to make such massively different choices in ME1? - In most games, unless there's a lot of different endings (usually there's one, two at the most with some rare exceptions) your choices are going to be pretty meaningless. To me, Bioshock is a perfect example of this. Choices in games are mostly an illusion. There might come a time when things can be procedurally generated in a natural way to allow for lots of different out comes that can then carry over to a sequel but then you'd most likely loose a strong, human-written, narrative. Anyway I ended up writing more than I thought I would and more than people will probably read.

I guess it's just unfortunate to keep hearing them promise "big choices" if they don't have the budget or manpower to actually make them mean something other than a few different lines of dialogue (and I HIGHLY doubt it's the former). I'll wait and see how the final game turns out before badmouthing them.

Chinner, let's see Ashley.

[Jarmel]

People complaining about choice: - As a developer you have to take into account both new-comers and people who have played the previous title(s). - There's only so much content you can develop in 2 years. Building consequences for two major different outcomes would result in a massive amount of double work. I don't think they did a bad job with ME2 but maybe they shouldn't have allowed you to make such massively different choices in ME1? - In most games, unless there's a lot of different endings (usually there's one, two at the most with some rare exceptions) your choices are going to be pretty meaningless. To me, Bioshock is a perfect example of this. Choices in games are mostly an illusion. There might come a time when things can be procedurally generated in a natural way to allow for lots of different out comes that can then carry over to a sequel but then you'd most likely loose a strong, human-written, narrative. Anyway I ended up writing more than I thought I would and more than people will probably read.

Well here's the deal, Mass Effect (or atleast the marketing) prided itself on saying your choices mattered and there would be impact for said choices. The developers themselves stated that a good amount of the work so far was showing or atleast trying to demonstrate choice impact for ME3. This script however reduces all the choices down to dialogue differences. Even worse, sometimes the story seems to bend over backwards to nullify your decisions.

[mAcOdIn]

Im still trying to understand what kind of actual legal action can the take on a forum, whose threads are posted by random anonymous people around the world, for something like a spoiler, specially a video game spoiler. I mean this whole thing is really surreal, ms making such a big deal out of something so irrelevant honestly, are they really going to lose sales because of some spoilers? such thing just doesn't seem logical at all for me. who cares? really? will anyone who was interested in the game now magically going to lose interest because there are spoilers on the internet? ever game would bomb if that was the case, this whole thing is such nonsense.

Evilore may have already answered this and it just got lost, I dunno but I would say there's a couple things here.

For one, whether or not Neogaf or Evilore could ever be found legally guilty of anything if they wanted to push it it'd still go to trial, it's not like companies start a lawsuit, you write the judge a letter claiming it's silly and it just gets dismissed, whether there's basis for one or not would basically be determined over the course of months and countless dollars. Fair, not really but that's how it is.

Second, and what I find more interesting, perhaps Neogaf itself was in no danger but perhaps they could threaten certain users? Like Twitter itself isn't being sued into oblivion over Julian Assange's tweets or anything but the US government's making Twitter hand over all his info, what if something like that were to happen to GAF? What if Microsoft wanted to make a case gaainst certain users and as opposed to getting Neogaf shut down they wanted those user's IPs, IMs, post history, email and that stuff so they could identify those individuals in the real world and bring charges against them?

[bhlaab]

This can never be repeated enough... It's a simple perception flaw to group a large amount of people's voices into one and judge it as such. Unfortunately that's not just limited to online communities. Having said that, some forums will attract more of a certain type of person depending on a wide variety of factors so there might be a very slight larger group of people that share similar views than if you took a random group of people of equal size in the world. There's definitely a lot of strong reactions in here though... If these loud-voiced gamers weren't so negative and prone to judging this screw-up wouldn't have been such a big deal. And when ME3 comes around and the sales come in, it might turn out that it really didn't matter all that much. People complaining about choice: - As a developer you have to take into account both new-comers and people who have played the previous title(s). - There's only so much content you can develop in 2 years. Building consequences for two major different outcomes would result in a massive amount of double work. I don't think they did a bad job with ME2 but maybe they shouldn't have allowed you to make such massively different choices in ME1? - In most games, unless there's a lot of different endings (usually there's one, two at the most with some rare exceptions) your choices are going to be pretty meaningless. To me, Bioshock is a perfect example of this. Choices in games are mostly an illusion. There might come a time when things can be procedurally generated in a natural way to allow for lots of different out comes that can then carry over to a sequel but then you'd most likely loose a strong, human-written, narrative. Anyway I ended up writing more than I thought I would and more than people will probably read.

SOLUTION: developers should not promise things they cannot deliver on.

[Thunder Monkey]

SOLUTION: developers should not promise things they cannot deliver on.

But without sky high promises and $50 million dollar development how would we know what the GotY is going to be?

[Acheron]

So where do I get my hands on these sweet, sweet spoilers?

[shagg_187]

So where do I get my hands on these sweet, sweet spoilers?

There is a private website with a search database of all the content on the internet. It's called google. I heard it's amazing!

[Acheron]

There is a private website with a search database of all the content on the internet. It's called google. I heard it's amazing!

Well dipshit those Microsoft lawyers also know about Google. It's a bit harder than that.

Either be helpful or what's the fucking point?

[shagg_187]

Well dipshit those Microsoft lawyers also know about Google. It's a bit harder than that. Either be helpful or what's the fucking point?

You live in Toronto? Alright. I'll give you coordinates on where to meet up. Outside CN Tower tomorrow night at 9pm. There will be a parcel that'll say "dipshit".

Make sure no Microsoft lawyer is following. They know about CN Tower and it's a bit harder than that.

Further instructions after you receive the parcel.





Oh wait. You want the fucking point. Here's the fucking point for you: READ the first sentence of the first page of the thread before you start attacking me.

[Acheron]

You live in Toronto? Alright. I'll give you coordinates on where to meet up. Outside CN Tower tomorrow night at 9pm. There will be a parcel that'll say "dipshit". Make sure no Microsoft lawyer is following. They know about CN Tower and it's a bit harder than that. Further instructions after you receive the parcel. Oh wait. You want the fucking point. Here's the fucking point for you: READ the first sentence of the first page of the thread before you start attacking me.

Did I ask you "post the spoilers"? No, I did not. If you want to PM them or their location, do so. If not, then don't. I really don't give a shit what you do. But your flip little "google" remark is pretty useless either way.

[shagg_187]

Did I ask you "post the spoilers"? No, I did not. If you want to PM them or their location, do so. If not, then don't. I really don't give a shit what you do. But your flip little "google" remark is pretty useless either way.

Oh man.

"So where do I get my hands on these sweet, sweet spoilers?"

Clearly, you don't want any spoilers, yet you want spoilers? :lol

Instead of PM-ing you the location, I'll tell you straight up: Google it! I just did and it took me less than ten seconds to find the right link with the right choice of words.

Please refrain from using such language towards me especially when I'm helping you with your needs. Good night.

[bhlaab]

But without sky high promises and $50 million dollar development how would we know what the GotY is going to be?

Considering that they are the ones who decide what the goty will be I don't think it matters!

[Acheron]

Oh man. "So where do I get my hands on these sweet, sweet spoilers?" Clearly, you don't want any spoilers, yet you want spoilers? :lol Instead of PM-ing you the location, I'll tell you straight up: Google it! I just did and it took me less than ten seconds to find the right link with the right choice of words. Please refrain from using such language towards me especially when I'm helping you with your needs. Good night.

Rather amazingly my posts on public forums are not beacons for you, shag_187, to impart useless advice. I'm asking the community for some assistance because again amazingly I joined a video game forum to occasionally get video game info. Once again if you don't want to help, don't. But don't give me shit and then start trying to sell it as anything but a sarcastic dismissal. I'm done with this.

[OatmealMu]

Guys, guys, guys! Don't tear each others' heads off. If you need to get mad at anyone, get mad at me. I can take it and won't fight back.

[shagg_187]

Considering that they are the ones who decide what the goty will be I don't think it matters!

Guys, guys, guys! Don't tear each others' heads off. If you need to get mad at anyone, get mad at me. I can take it and won't fight back.

Aww! :P

I'm not tearing anyone's head off. I'm just having some fun. If I need to tear someone's head off, I'll make sure I let you know! :D

[Yagharek]

But without sky high promises and $50 million dollar development how would we know what the GotY is going to be?

They just announce that their own game was GOTY by putting the statement on the front of the box when it's re-issued.

[Massa]

Rather amazingly my posts on public forums are not beacons for you, shag_187, to impart useless advice. I'm asking the community for some assistance because again amazingly I joined a video game forum to occasionally get video game info. Once again if you don't want to help, don't. But don't give me shit and then start trying to sell it as anything but a sarcastic dismissal. I'm done with this.

His advice is the best anyone could give on NeoGAF given the circumstances outlined in the first post of this thread.

[Septimius]

This can never be repeated enough... It's a simple perception flaw to group a large amount of people's voices into one and judge it as such. Unfortunately that's not just limited to online communities. Having said that, some forums will attract more of a certain type of person depending on a wide variety of factors so there might be a very slight larger group of people that share similar views than if you took a random group of people of equal size in the world. There's definitely a lot of strong reactions in here though... If these loud-voiced gamers weren't so negative and prone to judging this screw-up wouldn't have been such a big deal. And when ME3 comes around and the sales come in, it might turn out that it really didn't matter all that much. People complaining about choice: - As a developer you have to take into account both new-comers and people who have played the previous title(s). - There's only so much content you can develop in 2 years. Building consequences for two major different outcomes would result in a massive amount of double work. I don't think they did a bad job with ME2 but maybe they shouldn't have allowed you to make such massively different choices in ME1? - In most games, unless there's a lot of different endings (usually there's one, two at the most with some rare exceptions) your choices are going to be pretty meaningless. To me, Bioshock is a perfect example of this. Choices in games are mostly an illusion. There might come a time when things can be procedurally generated in a natural way to allow for lots of different out comes that can then carry over to a sequel but then you'd most likely loose a strong, human-written, narrative. Anyway I ended up writing more than I thought I would and more than people will probably read.

Then you have the whole problem of Aarseth and the whole gang claiming that this actually isn't a narrative. I think Aarseth's elevator test can go die in a fire. But that's getting off topic. There's definitely a huge problem with Mass Effect and its branching story. My biggest problem with it is like after the first game, when they didn't even want to double up the work with only TWO characters (and you know what I'm talking about if you've played ME1), but then they just decide to drop both characters for ME2. How the hell are they gonna cope with ME3 where EVERYONE can die? We need a whole new cast. That or they're gonna pull some Six Million Dollar Man crap, and I'll punch a seal. And I mean a navy seal, not the cute animals.

[Lime]

Then you have the whole problem of Aarseth and the whole gang claiming that this actually isn't a narrative. I think Aarseth's elevator test can go die in a fire. But that's getting off topic.

You in the academic field? I'd love to hear your thoughts on Aarseth's elevator test of what demarcates a narrative. From what I have gathered during the last couple of months, Abbott's definition as 'the representation of an event or a series of events' seems like a sufficient demarcation.

[Lifejumper]

Bioware doctors on the leak:

Full Article: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-leaked-script

The leaked script generated much debate among fans, and it is this feedback that BioWare may use to tweak the story ahead of the game's 2012 launch. "We listen to our fans all of the time," Muzyka continued. "We listen to them on the forums, their feedback from stories. We're reading it all. If we can get ideas out of it that will make the game better, sure. We're not adverse to taking feedback. That's part of our core values, is humility. Any time we get a good idea from fans... they're our audience. They keep us in business." Muzyka reiterated the statement BioWare released when the leak occurred, and insisted Mass Effect 3's story was still in flux - but noted the impact on the development team. "It was disappointing for them, yeah. They're moving on. They're making a great game. The script, frankly, has changed a little bit from what was released, too. It's been edited. They're always tuning it. They're always making it better. But yeah, it's tough when you see your work displayed. You realise only a small number of people are probably going to look at those spoilers in advance. "It is hard on a team when they see their work revealed in an early form like that. It was a pre-release demo. The script was certainly not intended to be released in that form and that early. Here it is! It's not even out yet, but you can read through it. It's a summary. "But they're going to get through it because they're a strong group. They really care about delivering a great game to the fans. They're committed to making this the best Mass Effect." Muzyka urged the fans to stay clear of story spoilers because they script is out of context. "You edit it continually. It's a living process to build a game and it's also a living experience to play through it. You're seeing the graphics, you're seeing the choices, you're seeing the characters. Words alone on a page, they're not delivered in voice over, they're not delivered in the interface, they're not delivered as your character, with your choices up to that point imbuing them with meaning and purpose and identity, the emotion part of it. "A lot of the art now in video games is developed in an interesting way where subtle expressions and facial animation, a tilt of the head, the way the camera is positioned, the lighting in a room, they can set the tone and the mood, the sound effects, the layer of audio that's put over the top of a scene, that stuff is really important. "What I would suggest to the fans is, we're going to make sure we deliver an awesome experience as we have in prior Mass Effect games. Don't spoil the story. The fun of the story is uncovering things and exploring and finding new points to adventure in. I hope they don't lose that joy of discovery."

[Septimius]

You in the academic field? I'd love to hear your thoughts on Aarseth's elevator test of what demarcates a narrative. From what I have gathered during the last couple of months, Abbott's definition as 'the representation of an event or a series of events' seems like a sufficient demarcation.

Yes, Aarseth was my lecturer. Suffice it to say, the whole exam was angled in a way I couldn't agree with, so that wasn't so much fun. Abbott is absolutely onto something. Aarseth would stand by the old demarcation of a narrative as having two "kernels" (was it kernels? cores?) - he likes to say "The king died, then the queen died of grief" - those are two kernels that will make you know which narrative we're talking about.

The satellites are what they call the 'insignificant details' that don't make up the story, but definitely shape it. If you stand jumping up and down on a box in HL2 for half an hour, that'd be a satellite. The kernels would be arriving at City 17, then meeting Barney.

There is this game called Facade, which is a progressively generated game (very short, but sweet) that Aarseth argues is not a narrative. He says they're under what's called 'emergent narratives', but he argues with his elevator test that it's too broad of a definition, so the term is meaningless.

As you might know, his elevator test is pretty much "If an elevator ride is a narrative, then your definition is too broad, and you've got a meaningless definition". Of course, all of this dates back to his Cybertext and everyone in the academic field of gaming and narratives are sadly a bunch of academics and not gamers. I think it can be detrimental to the academy of gaming if we disconnect ourselves from the age-old term narrative, and instead have to start from scratch, discarding all the work movies, books and theater has done before us. We build upon those experiences. We are making interactive experiences, but they are still often narratives. Tetris isn't a narrative, but GTA20 where you just arrive at a city, then you can do WHATEVER you want - get a career as a garbage truck man or join the mob - is most definitely a narrative, even though it is 'procedurally generated'.

The problem with the academics of this is that you have one, 'older view', side that argues that narratives should be strictly defined like Aarseth says, wherein we might as well say that no games are narratives, because that term won't help us at all if that's how we'll approach it. And the either side, I fear - even though I honestly can't really remember why, nor mention names, because I've apparently misplaced my exam - aren't working on this problem with games' progress in mind