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DmC developers at Ninja Theory inviting Top DMC players to test game

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Fixed:

QnvRf.png
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
EternalGamer said:
I know. And they did that for four games. I thought NT would be an opportunity to do something NEW the way those sequels I listed above did.

Juggling guys and doing air combos, throwing guys to the ground to boost further in the air and keep a combo going was fun.

I overstated when I said I totally don't like juggle/combo based gameplay. I should have just said I like it less than other gameplay styles. I may not have been great at DMC, but I played DMC 4 enough to SSS rank many of the stages and at least S rank most of them. But I already DID that. A new dev and a franchise reboot should be a chance to do something new, not do the same thing all over again.

The combat evolved with each game. It grew and expanded in a very natural way. The combat of DMC is the core of the series. What you're saying is like arguing that Mario shouldn't be about platforming. The equivalent of saying the next Dark Souls should have juggles and guns. You're compromising the identity of an IP just to try something different... and it's a far lazier than advancing the actual state of the series.

I'm sorry, but that's just plain silly.

You didn't want a DMC game (and quite frankly, you may still get your wish). Go ahead and wait for Ninja Theory's next game.
 

vg260

Member
Bringing in pros won't help polish a turd. Not the same genre, but Neversoft brought in pros to consult on Guitar Hero III, and that game still turned out abysmal. (though it sold well on name)
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
Dahbomb said:
Yes (not scores though), there IS a competitive DMC scene which started right after DMC3. It's usually labeled under something like "True Style Tournament". I used to judge these back in the day (think of them like the Olympics only players have to style and show top execution for marks/points/rankings).

HiI'mDaisyMinato:|.jpg

No... really... There's a competitive DMC scene?
 
GuardianE said:
Yeah, I mean, as far as I'm concerned as a self-admitted fanboy, they fucked up a backstory and characters that I cared about. So, that's not really forgiveable.

Still, this shows promise, and I'm more than willing to acknowledge that this is a step in the right direction.
Same. I'm personally not going to buy it, even at 1% of the price, for those reasons (saying they fucked up the backstory is an understatement). But I'm more than willing to admit this is a good move, even if it doesn't amount to anything.

Even if this is a marketing move it's a smart marketing move. Since the rest of their PR has been so mind-shatteringly abysmal this shows that they either got someone competent to run the marketing or someone got slapped hard in the face.
 

Himself

Member
Excellent. NT are not handling this lightly and it could pay of in a big way. Each new piece of news/video/screen has me looking forward to the game just a bit more.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
First Name said:
Same. I'm personally not going to buy it, even at 1% of the price, for those reasons (saying they fucked up the backstory is an understatement). But I'm more than willing to admit this is a good move, even if it doesn't amount to anything.

Even if this is a marketing move it's a smart marketing move. Since the rest of their PR has been so mind-shatteringly abysmal this shows that they either got someone competent to run the marketing or someone got slapped hard in the face.

Maybe they realize that pissing off the longtime fans of the series wasn't such a good idea. I guess we'll know if they learned that lesson if Tameem is never allowed to speak in front of the press again.

I'm with you. I'm not going to buy it... new. I don't want any of my money supporting it whatsoever for my own personal reasons. Depending on what results from this, I may rent or buy it used down the line.
 

Kayo-kun

Member
EternalGamer said:
this is definitely not the case. Especially with games like Metriod Prime, RE4 and FF12.


Well, I probably will. Like I said, new dev and franchise reboot were the reasons I was interested. I was hoping it would just play exactly like the earlier games.

I don't really begrudge you guys your hardcore fighting game like mechanics (though I do wonder why you want the same thing again and again). It is isn't for me. I also fear it is no longer for a mainstream audience and by trying to stick too close to what you guys want, the series will shrink its audience, not expand it.

Incidentally, of the games you mentioned most of them are also heavily combo driven. There are few third person combat games that aren't. That is one of the reasons I love Dark Souls so much (90 hours in, at level 95). No other game (except Demon Souls) plays like it. I would say the same of Enslaved. I liked it because the mix of long and short range (often in the same battle) and the color coded fights made it unique. Most action games are just trying to be God of War.

Ok let me put it this way. How would you feel is the next Demon's Souls/Dark Souls game went fundamental changes and turned into a cinematic experience like Uncharted with less focus on the amazing gameplay experience DS is known for?

You are not a fan of DMC and from what I see, you seem to not have played them and start making assumptions calling it "just another GoW". DMC has a very different gameplay than GoW and other fighting action games, the most similar one I can think of is Bayonetta (and that is due to obvious reasons). Don't come here trying to prove a point when you don't even properly know the franchise and dont seem to know what you're talking about.

Being glad that developers are completely changing (ruining in my opinion) a franchise that you know much about is very strange in my eyes. I mean if you had been a fan and felt that DMC needed a major change, then I would be more acceptant of an opinion like this.
 

gunbo13

Member
badcrumble said:
Yes and no. Some DMC4 moves are definitely easier to pull off, but it also has a lot more just-frame stuff than DMC3's got, IMO.
Just frames are only a classification type of an input window. They are basically a way for the game to convey to you that they are required. So having 10x the amount in one game doesn't mean much. Typically, they involve inputs regarding game actions that do not rely solely on the player, such as RG which is on hit confirm.

When it comes to windows, especially turbo mode in DMC3SE, DMC4 is more lenient. I would also argue that a lot of the time the JC hit-box is larger, probably more pronounced regarding distance to the enemy. DMC3 requires some really tough over-head positioning for a lot of JCs and a lot of moves put you out of the hit-box. There are also a lot more variety in DMC4 to continue to maintain position for JC as well as continue strings, especially aerials. Nero's buster is a no brainier here but things like Dante's pistol juggle really assist in aerials. Dante does not have an assist like pistol juggle in DMC3 and you have no style switching.

Basically, DMC3 is very restrictive and extremely unforgiving. A slight delay on input means you dropped the soap. DMC3 combos are all about fighting the game engine itself. DMC4 is all about utilizing the engine to continue to expand upon it. I would argue that DMC3 is harder to master with advanced techniques initially but easier to go beyond that. DMC4 is the exact opposite. DMC3 is also more planned due to the restrictions and DMC4 is more freestyle. I would say the overall difficulty is higher in DMC4 but only due to how expansive it is, not mechanically.

FYI, I'm talking purely from a combo standpoint. Talking standard mechanics is a different discussion and one that I'm not sure I can even do anymore.
 
Dahbomb said:
The ones that I know who are going are definitely "top" or known players. So yeah NT is picking them right at the very least. And they are from UK too so yeah... quesion #2 and #3 are sort of invalid.

Top DMC players are all over ranging from US, UK, Europe, Singapore, Japan, China even South Asia where I am from.

Well, like I said. I believe it solely on the strength on your reputation. Believe it or not, I personally think you "Get" DMC more than Kamiya himself.

If you say they are good, They are good.

I'm still sceptical how useful this will be but time will tell.

One thing I do hope comes out of this playtesting is a return of bloody palace mode, maybe even one with added options, like increasing enemy count, turning off Dante trigger etc.

At least if the combat is somewhat ok, it can be sandboxed in its own section away from the rest of the garbage in the game.

But yes, I maintain the most exciting thing about this is the fact that now Capcom have properly acknowledged the High level scene for this release, its going to be much harder to ignore them for future titles.
 
gunbo13 said:
Just frames are only a classification type of an input window. They are basically a way for the game to convey to you that they are required. So having 10x the amount in one game doesn't mean much. Typically, they involve inputs regarding game actions that do not rely solely on the player, such as RG which is on hit confirm.

When it comes to windows, especially turbo mode in DMC3SE, DMC4 is more lenient. I would also argue that a lot of the time the JC hit-box is larger, probably more pronounced regarding distance to the enemy. DMC3 requires some really tough over-head positioning for a lot of JCs and a lot of moves put you out of the hit-box. There are also a lot more variety in DMC4 to continue to maintain position for JC as well as continue strings, especially aerials. Nero's buster is a no brainier here but things like Dante's pistol juggle really assist in aerials. Dante does not have an assist like pistol juggle in DMC3 and you have no style switching.

Basically, DMC3 is very restrictive and extremely unforgiving. A slight delay on input means you dropped the soap. DMC3 combos are all about fighting the game engine itself. DMC4 is all about utilizing the engine to continue to expand upon it. I would argue that DMC3 is harder to master with advanced techniques initially but easier to go beyond that. DMC4 is the exact opposite. DMC3 is also more planned due to the restrictions and DMC4 is more freestyle. I would say the overall difficulty is higher in DMC4 but only due to how expansive it is, not mechanically.

FYI, I'm talking purely from a combo standpoint. Talking standard mechanics is a different discussion and one that I'm not sure I can even do anymore.
Ah, yeah, I know what you meant now, sorry. Agreed.
 

TheExodu5

Banned
They clearly want DmC to stack up, which makes it all the more sad how they can't seem to realize how important 60fps is to the overall experience.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
TheExodu5 said:
They clearly want DmC to stack up, which makes it all the more sad how they can't seem to realize how important 60fps is to the overall experience.

Display framerate is not easily adjustable upwards, if everything has been budgeted to 30 its basically fixed without stripping down and rebuilding every asset - which quite clearly isn't going to happen at this late stage.

On the other hand, uprating input polling and internal physics/logic to 60 should be doable, and should have the exact same benefits to "feel".
 

Stinkdog

Neo Member
lowhighkang_LHK said:
Is first see if there are visual and auditory telegraphed attacks. I know there seems to be visual, but I'm not sure on auditory since we haven't had a good gameplay video that had sound.

If there are no auditory cues on enemy attacks, then shit is already fucked.

^One thousand times this.

I want this thread's news to give me hope, but I'm far too cynical and jaded by Capcom and NT at this point.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Clear said:
Display framerate is not easily adjustable upwards, if everything has been budgeted to 30 its basically fixed without stripping down and rebuilding every asset - which quite clearly isn't going to happen at this late stage.

On the other hand, uprating input polling and internal physics/logic to 60 should be doable, and should have the exact same benefits to "feel".
The latter is basically what they are claiming they are doing with this game.
 

Carbonox

Member
My shitty Google translator translated the DmC article to the best of its ability. It pretty much contained nothing valuable or OMGNEW that I could make sense of.

Something about Jiang Castle was the only thing that I was curious about. :lol
 
Dahbomb said:
The latter is basically what they are claiming they are doing with this game.

Do you have any idea of what the end result will be?


I don't know a great deal about these things but isn't it the closer they make it "feel" like 60FPS, the less depth will be there to manipulate by high level players anyway?
 

gunbo13

Member
TheExodu5 said:
They clearly want DmC to stack up, which makes it all the more sad how they can't seem to realize how important 60fps is to the overall experience.
It depends on what you mean by "stack up." Do flashy combo videos which have a lenient difficulty curve resonate the same as ones that have a steep one? If you don't know the difficulty behind the combos, then would you even know? And wouldn't flashiness with a low curve be better for mainstream players so they themselves can pull off some flashy stuff?

I'm from the school where I don't like to keep things hidden. Top level DMC combos are extremely difficult. I could write a long dissertation on the facts behind this but I will spare everyone. But I only know of this difficulty curve by putting in the time to explore the mechanics in the same way. However, I'm not ignorant enough to believe this is a common viewpoint. So appreciation is extremely relative when it comes to these games. And combos stacking up to "standards" would involve defining what you mean by "standards".

With 30fps you are extremely limited to what you can do on the mechanics side. But does that really matter? Allowing large windows, easy hit-boxes, and slower inputs could result in exactly what you see in the best combo videos. It is just more forgiving but it won't change the result if the developers design the engine in that regard. You'll just have no steep jump from novice -> expert where these combo videos look mind-blowing instead of respectable.

From my perspective, I have no interest in the simplification of the combat system designed around 30fps. But you really don't have much of a choice if you want the results to be the same as the best of the DMC players. And as I said, most spectators won't know the difference and could be very pleased they can replicate most of it.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking said:
Do you have any idea of what the end result will be?

I don't know a great deal about these things but isn't it the closer they make it "feel" like 60FPS, the less depth will be there to manipulate by high level players anyway?
Frame-rate isn't directly defined to inputs. You can have the system recognize inputs at its own prerogative. However, frame-rate is involved with the animations and how they respond to these inputs. Players react to the visuals in order to link inputs. If the animations are not scaled properly, then to maintain 60fps type inputs, the player is almost filling in the blanks. This is quite unrealistic. Therefore, the only option is to scale the animations accordingly and adjusting input windows. This logically would result in a lot less depth and versatility in the engine.
 
GuardianE said:
The combat evolved with each game. It grew and expanded in a very natural way. The combat of DMC is the core of the series. What you're saying is like arguing that Mario shouldn't be about platforming. The equivalent of saying the next Dark Souls should have juggles and guns. You're compromising the identity of an IP just to try something different... and it's a far lazier than advancing the actual state of the series.

I'm sorry, but that's just plain silly.

You didn't want a DMC game (and quite frankly, you may still get your wish). Go ahead and wait for Ninja Theory's next game.

No, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't have melee/gun play based combat. That would be akin to saying Mario shouldn't jump.

But what I know is that if they cater to the hardcore fans, they are going to want it to play more and more like the old games. That is not a "reboot" in my opinion. At that point, you may as well just call it Devil May Cry 5.

Ninja Gaiden was a reboot. It played like neither the NES games nor the arcade games.

Fallout 3 was a reboot. Plays nothing like the earlier games.

Castlevania: Lord of Shadows was a reboot. It played more like God of War than any older Castlevania game.

X-Com is a reboot, no longer a turn based strategy game.

Tomb Raider reboot looks to make the game way more like Uncharted and unlike past games.

I like franchises that do this. That take chances and often it turns out well. With the new art direction and a totally new team and a new "number one" by titling it just "Devil May Cry," I was under the impression that a real reboot was what we were getting.

Instead, if they actually listen to the hardcore in these play tests, we will get Devil May Cry 5, a reboot in name only.
 
gunbo13 said:
It depends on what you mean by "stack up." Do flashy combo videos which have a lenient difficulty curve resonate the same as ones that have a steep one? If you don't know the difficulty behind the combos, then would you even know? And wouldn't flashiness with a low curve be better for mainstream players so they themselves can pull off some flashy stuff?

I'm from the school where I don't like to keep things hidden. Top level DMC combos are extremely difficult. I could write a long dissertation on the facts behind this but I will spare everyone. But I only know of this difficulty curve by putting in the time to explore the mechanics in the same way. However, I'm not ignorant enough to believe this is a common viewpoint. So appreciation is extremely relative when it comes to these games. And combos stacking up to "standards" would involve defining what you mean by "standards".

With 30fps you are extremely limited to what you can do on the mechanics side. But does that really matter? Allowing large windows, easy hit-boxes, and slower inputs could result in exactly what you see in the best combo videos. It is just more forgiving but it won't change the result if the developers design the engine in that regard. You'll just have no steep jump from novice -> expert where these combo videos look mind-blowing instead of respectable.

From my perspective, I have no interest in the simplification of the combat system designed around 30fps. But you really don't have much of a choice if you want the results to be the same as the best of the DMC players. And as I said, most spectators won't know the difference and could be very pleased they can replicate most of it.

I don't want to sound elitist but I feel that the majority of my enjoyment of the DMC combo scene is my elementary understanding how amazingly difficult it is to do these combos.

But that said, I see nothing wrong with dumbing down the combat a little for people who couldn't dream to enter the DMC Scene before (I sheepishly include myself in this group) AS LONG AS, There is sufficent depth to the combat that there is a clear tangible disparity from what someone like brea can do and what I can do.

Now I just can't see that happening at 30FPS. Its either or. Im glad that people will be able to perform Godlike combos now that they couldn't before but if you remove the reason they were god-like in the first place, It might as well just be another GOW clone.


gunbo13 said:
Therefore, the only option is to scale the animations accordingly and adjusting input windows. This logically would result in a lot less depth and versatility in the engine.


thats exactly what I thought. As good looking as the old games, but ABC cookie cutter with a upper limit on what you actually do which is fresh.

Many would argue however, that this is enough.
 
Add one more guy to the "I didn't know DMC had a scene" pile

about the game though, that shipped a long time ago when they decided that they're running it at 30fps

It's basically a turd waiting to be shat at this point.
 

Dahbomb

Member
ThoughtsOfSpeaking said:
I don't know a great deal about these things but isn't it the closer they make it "feel" like 60FPS, the less depth will be there to manipulate by high level players anyway?
I really don't know much about that outside from reading articles about it.

Bottomline is that the game is going to be held back compared to the other games, there is no doubt about this. Combat engine would have to be more lenient or slower to achieve the same fluidity.
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
sleepykyo said:
It's a good move, even if the performance issues aren't going to be addressed.
Not necessarily. What if the top DMC players find it to be unplayable?

And 60fps isn't a feel, it's a look. The look is just not gonna be there unless they're doing some kind of motion interpolation.
 

sleepykyo

Member
SapientWolf said:
Not necessarily. What if the top DMC players find it to be unplayable?

Somehow I doubt they are going to scrap a playable build and redo all the art and keyframe the animations for 60fps on consoles.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
EternalGamer said:
No, I'm not arguing that it shouldn't have melee/gun play based combat. That would be akin to saying Mario shouldn't jump.

But what I know is that if they cater to the hardcore fans, they are going to want it to play more and more like the old games. That is not a "reboot" in my opinion. At that point, you may as well just call it Devil May Cry 5.

Ninja Gaiden was a reboot. It played like neither the NES games nor the arcade games.

Fallout 3 was a reboot. Plays nothing like the earlier games.

Castlevania: Lord of Shadows was a reboot. It played more like God of War than any older Castlevania game.

X-Com is a reboot, no longer a turn based strategy game.

Tomb Raider reboot looks to make the game way more like Uncharted and unlike past games.

I like franchises that do this. That take chances and often it turns out well. With the new art direction and a totally new team and a new "number one" by titling it just "Devil May Cry," I was under the impression that a real reboot was what we were getting.

Instead, if they actually listen to the hardcore in these play tests, we will get Devil May Cry 5, a reboot in name only.

With the exception of Tomb Raider, your examples are all flawed. They're not reboots. They're modern versions of their old school counterparts. Are the different? Yes. But each essentially had to rebuild from square one because the source material was ancient.

Tomb Raider is an okay example, but Tomb Raider has also on its third reboot (spinoff?), so nothing is really sacred with that series anymore.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure you're the only person that feels that the dumbing down of combat is a good thing in this series. Most NT supporters in these threads merely tolerate it, not endorse it like you.
 

gunbo13

Member
SapientWolf said:
And 60fps isn't a feel, it's a look. The look is just not gonna be there unless they're doing some kind of motion interpolation.
No interpolation. Motion blur maybe but what you are currently seeing is likely the end result.

It is misleading to say the feel of 60fps. It's really just saying the feel of the input system of past games. But that doesn't sound as catchy. While possible, it isn't even possible to effectively apply that input system to a 30fps game. So in the end, it is a ball of nonsense. It will be a customized input system with polling rates against the traditional 30fps action titles. It won't however feel like 60fps whatever the hell that means.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I am 90% sure they got it through the DMC3 advance combat FAQ on Gamefaqs.

For those who know which people worked on the FAQ with me, you will know who the other person is who got the e-mail.

Idk I always thought hardcore DMC players were a minorities minority...dunno why there input would matter to much as almost noone plays the game that way.
They are but just like a fighting game they are the ones who explore the combat engine and push it to it's limit, then share their findings with the world. Other people who aren't as skilled can view and admire these feats of skill and get a grip with the depth in the game as well as having a high point to strive towards.
 

sn00zer

Member
Idk I always thought hardcore DMC players were a minorities minority...dunno why there input would matter to much as almost noone plays the game that way.
 
gunbo13 said:
Somebody close to Dahbomb leaked it. I'm calling it now.


but even then, how did that person know Ninja theory were looking for this feedback?

The only thing I can think of is that one of the playtesters of DmC was aware of the scene and suggested it to NT who asked Capcom for the go ahead.

This all doesn't read like part of the marketing plan as the smartest idea would be to make a post on unity or the games facebook page requesting players.

That said, this might prove to be much more useful, so who knows.
 

ezekial45

Banned
If they wanted to do a PR stunt, then they would've done something much bigger than this. Considering how niche the expert level scene is, I find it hard to believe that they're doing it just to please people and nothing more.
 
Dahbomb said:
I am 90% sure they got it through the DMC3 advance combat FAQ on Gamefaqs.

For those who know which people worked on the FAQ with me, you will know who the other person is who got the e-mail.

Pokey86?

sidenote: I didn't even realise you wrote that...I remember downloading it years ago and just being amazed at the amount of information it contained.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
sn00zer said:
Idk I always thought hardcore DMC players were a minorities minority...dunno why there input would matter to much as almost noone plays the game that way.

I understand this train of thought.

However, you have to remember that the more advanced concepts of DMC still effect the game on a basic level. Physics, float time, hit detection, knockback... these are things that you don't think about as a casual player, but you'll feel a difference if there's a problem when you're playing. You might not realize what exactly feels wrong, but it's still there in the back of your mind.

You're right. An infinitesmally small portion of gamers play like Brea. But her contributions are a significantly deeper analysis of the game changes the game on a fundamental level.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Yeah and the FAQ has always been incomplete (like there was so much more I wanted to put in it), I planned to finish it after DMC3SE but never got around to it. Then DMC4 got released and well that's the end of that. Now I have forgotten what I wanted to add in the first place. :/

I didn't know the FAQ was going to get respected so much and so many players would use it as the basis of their starting point. I made it to compile some of the known mechanics at the time (it's dated 2005). It started out by people not knowing what a jump cancel was and the controversy behind juggling devil triggered enemies as well as other undefined stuff like what enemies were intrinsically weak to which kind of weapon. We really had to go deep and it wasn't until experimenting on DT enemies did we realize that certain moves had various effects on enemies not noticed through regular means.
 

sn00zer

Member
GuardianE said:
I understand this train of thought.

However, you have to remember that the more advanced concepts of DMC still effect the game on a basic level. Physics, float time, hit detection, knockback... these are things that you don't think about as a casual player, but you'll feel a difference if there's a problem when you're playing. You might not realize what exactly feels wrong, but it's still there in the back of your mind.

You're right. An infinitesmally small portion of gamers play like Brea. But her contributions are a significantly deeper analysis of the game changes the game on a fundamental level.
I guess but it just comes down to being nitpicky....unless the game is broken on a very basic level its all just going to come down to preference....its like people noticing the difference between 2xAA and 16xAA or people who see screen tearing and those who don't. Those who do see the difference will say its the end of the world when everyone else will be just fine.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
sn00zer said:
I guess but it just comes down to being nitpicky....unless the game is broken on a very basic level its all just going to come down to preference....its like people noticing the difference between 2xAA and 16xAA or people who see screen tearing and those who don't. Those who do see the difference will say its the end of the world when everyone else will be just fine.

Yeah, I guess if you have zero standards. It's not nitpicky. Gameplay is important. Ninja Theory's last games have just completely destroyed your perception of how responsive games are supposed to be.

Anyway, I already explained to you why this effects the casual gamer, like yourself. Believe it or not, it makes a difference unless you are so unskilled that you literally button mash your way through games.
 

subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
Dahbomb said:
The latter is basically what they are claiming they are doing with this game.

The Hot Pursuit devs did the same. Physics and input were running at 60 fps while the game at 30 fps.
 
thetrin said:
When I was growing up, arcades were all about fighting games. Arcades haven't been about beating high scores since like 1987.

Bemani? Shooting games? Most single player arcade games are about high scores. Though there are a lot of them with broken/exploitable scoring systems. Even the best developers (Cave) can't escape that.
 
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