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Carlisle · Nov 9, 2011

Read the Xs in Xbox as ten.

So it'll be the Tenboten, or 展望天. Which translates in Japanese to Heavenly Perspective. This reaches out to MS's historically weakest market in a powerful way, using spirituality and religion. Japanese line up for the new console like it's a DS launch and MS wins.

It's so obvious, I'm bleeding from the ears.

Router · Nov 9, 2011

Big One said:
Are people really expecting the leap of tech on this thing to exceed considerably above 360? I think it's going to be a casual machine with similar specs to Wii U.

Because we have developers telling us that its a muthafucking beast.

DeaconKnowledge · Nov 9, 2011

Router said:
Because we have developers telling us that its a muthafucking beast.

Mind linking me? Not that I doubt you, I just haven't seen it myself.

TunaLover · Nov 9, 2011

Big One said:
Are people really expecting the leap of tech on this thing to exceed considerably above 360? I think it's going to be a casual machine with similar specs to Wii U.

Who knows wtf Sony will do, I think they'll lean towards more power but also big prices (as usual)

I think so too, MS launching in 2012 is good for Nintendo cause it makes the technological gap smaller, developers will be forced to make games with both machines in mind seeing the high development cost.

Sony decision really depends on Vita performance, I don't think they could support two machines being sold at lost.

infinityBCRT · Nov 9, 2011

Lovely Salsa said:
Keep telling yourself that

Yup. MS would be better off keeping the price high and then releasing the next console at $300-$350 making it look like a steal.

BigTnaples · Nov 9, 2011

Xun said:
Graphically we have yet to reach that far beyond the current generation in my honest opinion.

That's because we are still in the current generation. If you took my PC in console form and had ND develop a game around just those specs on the closed platform, you would see a game with 10x + the graphical fidelity of Uncharted 3.

Respawn · Nov 9, 2011

volturnus said:
When will we have nice names like Saturn again?

Nothing should be named Saturn.

soulassssns · Nov 9, 2011

Respawn said:
Nothing should be named Saturn.

"like"

Big difference

royalan · Nov 9, 2011

GhaleonEB said:
Agree. Halo 4 is the start of the new trilogy. It's aimed at the current install base on 360, with subsequent titles the draw to upgrade. I can't imagine they'd launch new hardware alongside it.

It's Halo. It doesn't need a hook.

Zeal · Nov 9, 2011

Carlisle said:
Read the Xs in Xbox as ten.

So it'll be the Tenboten, or 展望天. Which translates in Japanese to Heavenly Perspective. This reaches out to MS's historically weakest market in a powerful way, using spirituality and religion. Japanese line up for the new console like it's a DS launch and MS wins.

It's so obvious, I'm bleeding from the ears.

lol at this.

venne · Nov 9, 2011

Carlisle said:
Read the Xs in Xbox as ten.

So it'll be the Tenboten, or 展望天. Which translates in Japanese to Heavenly Perspective. This reaches out to MS's historically weakest market in a powerful way, using spirituality and religion. Japanese line up for the new console like it's a DS launch and MS wins.

It's so obvious, I'm bleeding from the ears.

Cloud services confirmed.

alphaNoid · Nov 9, 2011

WrikaWrek said:
Uncharted 3 looks amazing. I think if the 360 was pumping out stuff like that, it would easily buy a couple of years.

Gears of War 3 says hello, along with several other games that are right on par with your precious Uncharted. Let me remind you as well the GPU in the 360 is actually more powerful than the one in the PS3. The notion that the PS3 has the ability to do more, is a silly and tired old argument from 2005. Its 2011, we don't fall for this any longer.

I think the guys remark is spot on. We're dealing with 5-6 year old technology at this point, its time for a refresh.

Muchi Muchi Pink · Nov 9, 2011

DeaconKnowledge said:
2012?

Either GAF will be disappointed with its power, or that date ain't happening.

What is 2013 happening, that the hardware would be magnificent better than 2012?
You could just put a GPU from 2010 and more ram into the 360 and it would be much above the original 360. There might be some other reasons why they won't launch 2012, but not hardware.

Proelite · Nov 9, 2011

Xbox consoles released in 2011-2013 wouldn't be feature more than a 50% discrepancy in graphical prowess. All the components would be made using 32 / 28 nm process.

Only until TSMC / Global Foundries etc starts volume production of 20nm 3d ics can we see a substantial jump in graphical prowess. We're talking about chips that's equal/more powerful but uses 10% of the TDP, and less die space. That won't happen until late 2014 at the earlist imo.

100W console using 3D ICs would blow a 100W console using traditional ICs out of the water by a magnitude of 1-2 console generations.

When that happens, I believe game development would take a huge leap, simply because you can use a Third Party engine and have it look awesome for your game without much optimization. It'll be equivalent to how the movies nowadays can have awesome FX in every single film. Developers would be left to focus on content creation and gameplay, much of which would be outsourced too.

I feel like MS should release a stop gap Xbox in 2012 that's basically an extremely souped up 360 that can run 360 games at 1080p / 60fps, and then release the "true" successor in 2015/2016 if market and tech conditions are right.

clutch.as.it.gets. · Nov 9, 2011

Xun said:
Too early for me honestly.

Both the 360 and the PS3 have much to give, and I don't think moving to a new generation is worth it at the moment.

Graphically we have yet to reach that far beyond the current generation in my honest opinion.

Please. The textures in most games are terrible. It`s really distracting. Take Arkham City: that game bleeds so many ultra low res textures, it isn`t even funny.

Seriously, 360 and ps 3 are maxed out. Most games have lots of tearing, bad texture resolution, lots of pop ups, bad shadows, aren`t running in 720p...

No, it`s time to move on.

Mr.Squirrel · Nov 9, 2011

theBishop said:
2012... fuck that's too soon for me. I'm excited for new systems, but I could easily hold off until 2014. Between my PS3/360 backlog, PC, and Vita, I just don't have time for a new console in 2012.

I know this might seem like a revolutionary idea, but you can NOT buy it the year it's released. Crazy I know, but I'm pretty sure they'll still be making consoles a year or 2 once it's out.

I'm waiting 18 months minimum before jumping in next-gen. I'll never get an MS console again (too many RRODs, fuck em!), but I really don't trust Sony or Nintendo anymore either.

Mr.Squirrel · Nov 9, 2011

Infamous Chris said:
Good-looking linear games that are outclassed by massive open-ended games like BF3 on PC that look jaw-dropingly stunning in 64 player servers with tons of shit going on?

...we need a new gen ASAP. 2013 is my bet.

If the gen is so bad, build/upgrade your PC. Never understood why people constantly complaining about console performance, but never just build a PC.

StevieP · Nov 9, 2011

Proelite said:
Xbox consoles released in 2011-2013 wouldn't be feature more than a 50% discrepancy in graphical prowess. All the components would be made using 32 / 28 nm process.

Only until TSMC / Global Foundries etc starts volume production of 20nm 3d ics can we see a substantial jump in graphical prowess. We're talking about chips that's equal/more powerful but uses 10% of the TDP, and less die space. That won't happen until late 2014 at the earlist imo.

100W console using 3D ICs would blow a 100W console using traditional ICs out of the water by a magnitude of 1-2 console generations.

When that happens, I believe game development would take a huge leap, simply because you can use a Third Party engine and have it look awesome for your game without much optimization. It'll be equivalent to how the movies nowadays can have awesome FX in every single film. Developers would be left to focus on content creation and gameplay, much of which would be outsourced too.

I feel like MS should release a stop gap Xbox in 2012 that's basically an extremely souped up 360 that can run 360 games at 1080p / 60fps, and then release the "true" successor in 2015/2016 if market and tech conditions are right.

First off, when TSMC tells you that their 3D ic's are good for 2014, you reply "sure, 2016 sounds good to me! thanks". Second, the technology in consoles - while ALWAYS customized - is generally based on parts that aren't bleeding edge (Cell/BluRay being obvious examples that led to the disastrous PS3 launch). Otherwise you run into production troubles that cost time, money, and sales. Never expect 2014 tech to go into a 2014 console is what I'm saying.

Vita's a powerful device but is using tech from 2008/2009, as an example. As a manufacturer of consoles, you want your parts to be taped out long before AMD paper launches them, in other words

If the gen is so bad, build/upgrade your PC. Never understood why people constantly complaining about console performance, but never just build a PC.

Yep, you can have "next gen" now with a PC.

McHuj · Nov 9, 2011

bdizzle said:
If the gen is so bad, build/upgrade your PC. Never understood why people constantly complaining about console performance, but never just build a PC.

Except games are still designed with the current consoles in mind. Until the minimum threshold moves up, games won't take full advantage of what the PC can do.

Oozinator · Nov 9, 2011

it will be called Xbox .NET

That explains the "TEN" (reverse of NET) codename.

Rad Agast · Nov 9, 2011

SPE said:
CoD is casual though. A different type of casual, in that CoD is a traditional game, but still.

Just as there are a sizeable percentage of Wii owners who bought the console just for Wii Sports, there are plenty of people who buy Xbox/PS3 primarily to play CoD games. That is the pretty much defined definition of casual in my book.

We used to call those Killer Apps. I think the term is still used today no?

LightofRohan · Nov 9, 2011

Sorry if this has been asked before - where can we listen to the podcast?

infinityBCRT · Nov 9, 2011

Darknessbear said:
Sorry if this has been asked before - where can we listen to the podcast?

twit.tv

dwebo · Nov 9, 2011

Darknessbear said:
Sorry if this has been asked before - where can we listen to the podcast?

http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/twit.cachefly.net/ww0233.mp3

Demoncarnotaur · Nov 9, 2011

Halo 4 will not be a launch title for a new console for multiple reasons. #1 would be primarily that they would not want to lose out on the sales of releasing it to the 360 owners. On top of that, Halo 4 was already confirmed for 360.. Now it wouldn't be the first time for a game to jump consoles, but this time it has been outright confirmed that is a 360 title by 343.

Now, lets just say this Holiday 2012 rumor is true.. The one option is to launch the console on Halo 4's release date and have Halo 4 come out on both consoles, with just a graphical upgrade, while allowing the games to play with each other to not fragment the user-base.

Believe me, I want a new console.. I just think all evidence is pointing to later rather than sooner.

PSGames · Nov 9, 2011

StevieP said:
First off, when TSMC tells you that their 3D ic's are good for 2014, you reply "sure, 2016 sounds good to me! thanks". Second, the technology in consoles - while ALWAYS customized - is generally based on parts that aren't bleeding edge (Cell/BluRay being obvious examples that led to the disastrous PS3 launch). Otherwise you run into production troubles that cost time, money, and sales. Never expect 2014 tech to go into a 2014 console is what I'm saying.

Vita's a powerful device but is using tech from 2008/2009, as an example. As a manufacturer of consoles, you want your parts to be taped out long before AMD paper launches them, in other words

Yep, you can have "next gen" now with a PC.

Wasn't the GPU in the 360 bleeding edge as well?

Or at the very least had bleeding edge features?

StevieP · Nov 9, 2011

Rad Agast said:
We used to call those Killer Apps. I think the term is still used today no?

By that metric, Wii Sports Resort (28 million sold I think) is a bigger "killer app" than Blops (which has somewhere around 20 million sold)?

Wasn't the GPU in the 360 bleeding edge as well?

Or at the very least had bleeding edge features?

Unified shaders being added is one thing, but at the time of the 360 release the top end graphics cards were eating like 100w. This day in age, the top end graphics cards are eating 300w (for single-GPU cards). Customization is expected with all 3 next gen consoles, but they still have to be based on an existing design - and one that would fit within the limitations of a console as well.

goldenpp72 · Nov 9, 2011

StevieP said:
By that metric, Wii Sports Resort (28 million sold I think) is a bigger "killer app" than Blops (which has somewhere around 20 million sold)?

Unified shaders being added is one thing, but at the time of the 360 release the top end graphics cards were eating like 100w. This day in age, the top end graphics cards are eating 300w (for single-GPU cards). Customization is expected with all 3 next gen consoles, but they still have to be based on an existing design - and one that would fit within the limitations of a console as well.

Pretty sure wii resort is not near 28 million stand alone (not bundled with the console) sold, where as I think black ops is over 25 million.

Dunlop · Nov 9, 2011

My body is ready

what, we don't say that anymore?

I can't keep up with you yooths

2012 is perfect for me, bring it

quetz67 · Nov 9, 2011

Carlisle said:
Read the Xs in Xbox as ten.

So it'll be the Tenboten, or 展望天. Which translates in Japanese to Heavenly Perspective. This reaches out to MS's historically weakest market in a powerful way, using spirituality and religion. Japanese line up for the new console like it's a DS launch and MS wins.

It's so obvious, I'm bleeding from the ears.

ehhh...but...it's name was always xbox...why did it fail?

StevieP · Nov 9, 2011

goldenpp72 said:
Pretty sure wii resort is not near 28 million stand alone (not bundled with the console) sold, where as I think black ops is over 25 million.

Sorry, I'm at work - where all I have is Wikipedia. If you want a metric that isn't muddled with bundling (which, btw, games like Uncharted/CoD/etc get bundled as well) there is Wii Play at 27 million and Mario Kart at 28 million. A sale's a sale. If you want to take it further Wii Sports has "sold" 78 million copies.

My point was that both call of duty and wii ____ titles share the distinction of being casual gaming titles. Doesn't mean hardcore GAFers don't play them quite a bit (we most assuredly do) but that doesn't change what they are.

All this talk about ARM cores and AppleTV form factors, plus Microsoft pushing all its studios to create Kinect titles - should tell you all you need to know about the direction these rumours are suggesting Microsoft is taking.

KingJ2002 · Nov 9, 2011

Reading the rumors of an 2012 release... I can't imagine it happening... the 360 is about to be 7 years strong and it's not showing any signs of slowing down.

but if it does happen.

It would make sense as a "smaller and more affordable model" would be easier to produce and cut costs. I could also imagine backward compatibility with 360 titles and the system would be seen as more of an upgrade.

e32012 would be pretty massive as Ninetendo plans to re-unveil the Wii U & Microsoft trying to cut their mic off with the Xbox Loop (i like the name better).

but if nintendo and mircosoft both release in 2012... it could hurt sony... or give them time to deliver an all in one experience to re-take their throne

ehh... whatever... im probably going to buy them all... lol

Rad Agast · Nov 9, 2011

StevieP said:
By that metric, Wii Sports Resort (28 million sold I think) is a bigger "killer app" than Blops (which has somewhere around 20 million sold)?

Who in their right mind denies that the Wii Sports series is a Killer App? Your earlier discussion was regarding casual games. CoD isn't casual.

And I was replying to this specific post regarding the definition:

SPE said:
CoD is casual though. A different type of casual, in that CoD is a traditional game, but still.

Just as there are a sizeable percentage of Wii owners who bought the console just for Wii Sports, there are plenty of people who buy Xbox/PS3 primarily to play CoD games. That is the pretty much defined definition of casual in my book.

Does it make sense now?

DeaconKnowledge · Nov 9, 2011

Muchi Muchi Pink said:
What is 2013 happening, that the hardware would be magnificent better than 2012?
You could just put a GPU from 2010 and more ram into the 360 and it would be much above the original 360. There might be some other reasons why they won't launch 2012, but not hardware.

As I said before, The general consensus from the vocal parts of GAF is that's not good enough. Expectation for the console START at Battlefield 3 PC Max Settings and end somewhat nebulously at Kepler/Maxwell. 2010 GPU and more RAM is far below that.

GANGSTERKILLER · Nov 9, 2011

WrikaWrek said:
Uncharted 3 looks amazing. I think if the 360 was pumping out stuff like that, it would easily buy a couple of years.

Who are you trying to fool? PS3 exclusives are not extreeeeeeeemely better looking than the best Xbox exclusives and multiplats. This comes from a PS3 and 360 gamer.

It's time for the next-gen consoles. Next Xbox in 2012 is a must buy.

Angry Fork · Nov 9, 2011

Big One said:
Are people really expecting the leap of tech on this thing to exceed considerably above 360? I think it's going to be a casual machine with similar specs to Wii U.

Curufinwe said:
What is that belief based on?

bdizzle said:
If the gen is so bad, build/upgrade your PC. Never understood why people constantly complaining about console performance, but never just build a PC.

People don't want to switch to PC for 1-2 games when all their friends and network bs is on consoles. It would be better for everyone is new consoles came so everything can be improved and PC wouldn't be left behind either (for a couple years at least).

Leon S. Kennedy · Nov 9, 2011

goldenpp72 said:
Pretty sure wii resort is not near 28 million stand alone (not bundled with the console) sold, where as I think black ops is over 25 million.

Wii sports resort was not bundled with the console. It was bundled with wii motion plus. A couple of years after release there were a few consoles that came with both wii sports and wii sports resort, but that was replaced by mario kart.

KingJ2002 · Nov 9, 2011

If Microsoft takes a customized approach for the CPU/GPU from 2009-2010 parts while also putting in a buttload of RAM to work with (like what Crytek wants)... wouldnt that provide a necessary "next-gen" jump in terms of capabilities and visuals?

Would a tech demo like Unreal's Samaritan demo be possible with first gen games?

Aesius · Nov 9, 2011

I'm good until 2014, maybe even 2015.

DeaconKnowledge · Nov 9, 2011

KingJ2002 said:
If Microsoft takes a customized approach for the CPU/GPU from 2009-2010 parts while also putting in a buttload of RAM to work with (like what Crytek wants)... wouldnt that provide a necessary "next-gen" jump in terms of capabilities and visuals?

Would a tech demo like Unreal's Samaritan demo be possible with first gen games?

No.

The Power draw for Samaritan alone would be far too much for a 2012 console. Samaritan was running on 3 GTX580's 7 months ago. One GTX 580 requires a 900 watt power supply to operate.

royalan · Nov 9, 2011

DeaconKnowledge said:
No.

The Power draw for Samaritan alone would be far too much for a 2012 console.

It would be far too much for a 2013 console, wouldn't it?

DeaconKnowledge · Nov 9, 2011

royalan said:
It would be far too much for a 2013 console, wouldn't it?

I'd be surprised if we saw a mass market console that powerful in 2016, to be honest.

Proelite · Nov 9, 2011

StevieP said:
By that metric, Wii Sports Resort (28 million sold I think) is a bigger "killer app" than Blops (which has somewhere around 20 million sold)?

Unified shaders being added is one thing, but at the time of the 360 release the top end graphics cards were eating like 100w. This day in age, the top end graphics cards are eating 300w (for single-GPU cards). Customization is expected with all 3 next gen consoles, but they still have to be based on an existing design - and one that would fit within the limitations of a console as well.

Maybe for Nvidia, but for AMD their TDP has been consistently less that 300W for single GPU solutions, and it trending downwards. Their upcoming high end variant 7870 variant draw 120W, and the mid range 7850 (which is what I expect to be in consoles) draw 90W.

A 150W console with a 7850 level GPU and a good cpu can definitely be made and sold for $299 in 2012/13 easily. It's ram that might end up costing MS a ton.

LightofRohan · Nov 9, 2011

infinityBCRT said:
twit.tv

dwebo said:
http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/twit.cachefly.net/ww0233.mp3

Thank you thank you

Majanew · Nov 9, 2011

Angry Fork said:

Yeah...and? So MS now has a device aimed at grabbing a lot of casual gamers that will be forward compatible with the next Xbox. So, why would the next Xbox not be as bleeding edge as possible so MS can continue to cater to all types of gamers? Epic, Crytek and DICE have next-gen engines ready now and MS isn't going to just have a system that can't take advantage of them 7-8 years after 360's launch. No need for a "casual" console and a casual device (Kinect).

thehillissilent · Nov 9, 2011

DeaconKnowledge said:
No.

The Power draw for Samaritan alone would be far too much for a 2012 console. Samaritan was running on 3 GTX580's 7 months ago. One GTX 580 requires a 900 watt power supply to operate.

However, Epic mentioned that with optimization, they could get the demo to run on one GTX580.

Xun · Nov 9, 2011

BigTnaples said:
That's because we are still in the current generation. If you took my PC in console form and had ND develop a game around just those specs on the closed platform, you would see a game with 10x + the graphical fidelity of Uncharted 3.

I hope so.

So around this period in 2004 on the PC there wasn't anything as impressive as what the Xbox 360 put out? Because so far there is nothing on the PC that impresses me.

I must admit Samaritan didn't do too much for me either.

DeaconKnowledge · Nov 9, 2011

thehillissilent said:
However, Epic mentioned that with optimization, they could get the demo to run on one GTX580.

Tha's to be expected. However, that still leaves a few questions; namely what will be sacrificed.

Also, that still doesn't solve how Microsoft is supposed to configure a console with GTX 580 Power for a Holiday 2012 production console.

PSGames · Nov 9, 2011

Proelite said:
Maybe for Nvidia, but for AMD their TDP has been consistently less that 300W for single GPU solutions, and it trending downwards. Their upcoming high end variant 7870 variant draw 120W, and the mid range 7850 (which is what I expect to be in consoles) draw 90W.

A 150W console with a 7850 level GPU and a good cpu can definitely be made and sold for $299 in 2012/13 easily. It's ram that might end up costing MS a ton.

How does a 7850 compare to Xenos?

Proelite · Nov 9, 2011

DeaconKnowledge said:
Tha's to be expected. However, that still leaves a few questions; namely what will be sacrificed.

Also, that still doesn't solve how Microsoft is supposed to configure a console with GTX 580 Power for a Holiday 2012 production console.

They could use a 7850, which imo is around 75% of the power of a GTX 580. In a console environment, it can probably do more than a GTX 580.

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