[WoodenLung]

Sounds reasonable, was a bit surprised that it seemed to be tolerated before as it did seem pretty dodgy.

[Leondexter]

I dislike this line of reasoning. Buying something just for buying something doesn't make sense. If you only buy something in order to have paid something you can also pirate it -- there's no difference to it, if the people who legitimately should get the money see next to nothing of it.

That leads to insanity. You don't seriously care about what margin a shoe manufacturer makes, do you? Or a movie studio, if you see a blow-out DVD sale? Do you worry about the farmers if the corn crop is especially big this season and all the ears are 10 cents instead of 25 or 50?

Give me a break. Only videogame fans get worked up about this sort of thing. As long as it isn't stolen, then the publisher and developer were paid. Let them worry about whether they were paid enough.

On topic: I'm surprised it took this long. These sites looked shady enough to me that I wasn't going near them, even though I think region locking is archaic and stupid.

[thetrin]

Sounds totally reasonable. I thought they were pretty shady to begin with.

[Iadien]

This stuff always seemed shady as hell to me, I understand people want to save a few bucks, but ugh.

[1-D_FTW]

That leads to insanity. You don't seriously care about what margin a shoe manufacturer makes, do you? Or a movie studio, if you see a blow-out DVD sale? Do you worry about the farmers if the corn crop is especially big this season and all the ears are 10 cents instead of 25 or 50? Give me a break. Only videogame fans get worked up about this sort of thing. As long as it isn't stolen, then the publisher and developer were paid. Let them worry about whether they were paid enough. On topic: I'm surprised it took this long. These sites looked shady enough to me that I wasn't going near them, even though I think region locking is archaic and stupid.

Let's say I really loved raspberries. And because of depressed prices, the government gave the farmer some subsidies and bought a ton of those raspberries to be shipped overseas for starving countries as food aid.

And instead of going to countries in need for starving people, some schemer bought them all up at cheap discount and sent them back to the US... where they then undercut the original farmer by a couple cents. And because raspberries are raspberries, everyone saved a couple cents and bought the cheaper raspberries.

So the farmer, who just dumped the subsidized raspberries to eek out a little more profit to stay in business, now suddenly can't sell what inventory he kept and goes bankrupt.

This is a problem. Because the schemer who bought and resold the raspberries was never actually in the raspberry business. He was just a parasite to the process, so there's no one to replace the original farmer. Would I be upset I couldn't buy anymore raspberries? You bet I would. I bet raspberries lovers around the country would be.

[Drkirby]

So, I am guessing the line is drawn if they offer a download of the game or not, right? Well, eventually there has to be a Russian DD site like the British GMG.

[Corto]

Understandable. Steam seasonal sales are right around the corner too and will obliterate these. ;)

[kamspy]

I think the sites could also do a better job of presenting some well needed info so people aren't skeptical about them. For example if they could prove how they obtain the keys, and that it's all on the up and up, then there would be FAR less people thinking, "oh all these sites must just steal from one time or another to obtain these keys." More game companies would probably be cracking down on these guys FAST if that was indeed the case wouldn't they? Or is it simply they are located in a part of the world where they are untouchable if they were stealing keys somehow? Hopefully, whatever of these sites truly are on the up and up, will in the future be more forward with consumers so to dismiss doubt, then even GAF could green light that site being mentioned.

Would this count?





What if they email you the key first and then ship you the case?

Where do we draw the line at reputable dealer?

[morningbus]

So, I am guessing the line is drawn if they offer a download of the game or not, right? Well, eventually there has to be a Russian DD site like the British GMG.

There's still a very real barrier of entry: GMG actually works with the publishers and obtains keys directly from them. That's why their selection is kind of limited currently.

Would this count? http://i.imgur.com/bAOJ6.jpg http://i.imgur.com/LXb8K.jpg What if they email you the key first and then ship you the case? Where do we draw the line at reputable dealer?

Do any of these sites do that? I'd imagine shipping from Russia ruins their profit margin.

[The M.O.B]

Understandable. Steam seasonal sales are right around the corner too and will obliterate these. ;)

afaik Steam doesn't offer $25 off brand new games.

I agree with the ban, I believe someone on GAF already got ripped off by one of these sites and complained. It's best if GAF stays away from all this alltogether.

[Drkirby]

My understanding is he works for one of those system builders that puts pcs together for customers, hence the large volume of Nvidia cards.

He is likely breaking some agreement along the line. I don't think any large company is supposed to even get those game codes, and I am pretty sure that he is steeling them from the company in some way (Most likely they are contractually supposed to dispose of them, but he just takes them home rather then actually destroy them)

It is possible he owns his own small computer shop, and is merely ripping off his customers by selling the codes for money rather then give them to his customers.

[kamspy]

Do any of these sites do that? I'd imagine shipping from Russia ruins their profit margin.

I'm sure they could offer it and have the user foot the shipping cost if they want the case. Most buyers would probably pick the "no case" option.

I'm just really blurry on what constitutes a legit dealer in this case. Would ebay be eliminated as well if the seller was only offering a key?

[legend166]

Let's say I really loved raspberries. And because of depressed prices, the government gave the farmer some subsidies and bought a ton of those raspberries to be shipped overseas for starving countries as food aid. And instead of going to countries in need for starving people, some schemer bought them all up at cheap discount and sent them back to the US... where they then undercut the original farmer by a couple cents. And because raspberries are raspberries, everyone saved a couple cents and bought the cheaper raspberries. So the farmer, who just dumped the subsidized raspberries to eek out a little more profit to stay in business, now suddenly can't sell what inventory he kept and goes bankrupt. This is a problem. Because the schemer who bought and resold the raspberries was never actually in the raspberry business. He was just a parasite to the process, so there's no one to replace the original farmer. Would I be upset I couldn't buy anymore raspberries? You bet I would. I bet raspberries lovers around the country would be.

It's similar to those online communities that are dedicated to buying games on sale and then immediately going to EB Games and trading them in at a higher price. I don't know if that's common in Australia, but any site here dedicated to bargains ends up turning into people looking for trade in fodder and it sucks.

[Gez]

Where do we draw the line at reputable dealer?

Anyone who sells Valve games = automatic red flag. Anyone doing so is an unauthorized seller and should be banned from discussion. Only Valve sells their own games online via Steam.

[kamspy]

I'm not trying to stir up trouble with my posts in this thread. I just wonder how we can lump all these sites together when in some cases it's basically importing a game. Between GPU promos (Dirt 3 in Korea anyone?) ebay, sites that legitimately have purchased retail copies of games and sell the keys to essentially speed up the transaction and save on shipping, etc.

It's not that I oppose the line, I don't want to buy stolen keys, I'm just having a hard time defining it when games are being sold through so many different avenues. Hell, we had $6 Alan Wake keys from an Amazon seller a couple weeks ago.

Does this have implications on any transaction that defeats regional pricing?

[MRORANGE]

I won't be surprised if gaffers complaining that the MW3 keys they got from the banned sites become unusable on steam. Grey markets keys are easily picked up by steam, just like MW2 steam keys from Asia/Eastern Europe.


http://www.tgdaily.com/games-and-ent...ey-market-keys

Steam has reportedly implemented a total ban on "grey market" keys used to unlock CD copies of Modern Warfare 2. According to Voodoo Extreme, both Steam and Activision consider the controversial keys as having been obtained from "illegitimate sellers." ?? "[This] is a half truth, at best. The keys in question are purchased legally in Asia and other territories, where Activision is unable to charge through the nose and then sold on for a profit," wrote Voodoo's Andrew Burnes.

[Corto]

Does this have implications on any transaction that defeats regional pricing?

I don't believe so. Even Valve itself enables that through gifting.

[blitzcloud]

Consumers as a whole are so... dunno. I mean we want a fair market, where we can purchase legally a game according to the country economy, and then when a cheaper alternative that vulnerates this principle appears, people dont have enough time to exploit it.

I'm all for banning shady "businesses" that exploit loopholes.

[kamspy]

I don't believe so. Even Valve itself enables that through gifting.

It's a shame there's no way to pay RUS-GAF if you prefer the pricing on the Russian store. I'd prefer the pricing on the Russian store in the same way that AUS-GAF usually prefers the US prices.

The prices on the Russian steam store are very much in line with what a lot of keysellers charge.

[tokkun]

I don't use these sites and don't care if discussion of them is banned. However, I will say that using the rationale that because one Russian site sold stolen keys that all Russian sites are selling stolen CD keys seems kind of bigoted.

[morningbus]

It's a shame there's no way to pay RUS-GAF if you prefer the pricing on the Russian store. I'd prefer the pricing on the Russian store in the same way that AUS-GAF usually prefers the US prices. The prices on the Russian steam store are very much in line with what a lot of keysellers charge.

Well, of course. We'd all like Russian prices.

But the games are sold in Russia at that price for a multitude of reasons, including competing directly with piracy. Valve is only making money off a Russian key because, otherwise, they'd be making no money.

[Game Guru]

While this does stink, it is somewhat reasonable, especially if a person doesn't know how a company obtained the CD Key.

[RibbedHero]

I've purchased plenty of keys from these sites, but I totally understand the ban. Banning them completely ensures no Gaffer falls victim to fraud and also stops people from recommending region circumvention in threads when clearly people are aware of it but choose not to use it.

I also have the feeling that in a few months all games are going to be region locked completely, and the issue will be a nullified.

[Corto]

I don't use these sites and don't care if discussion of them is banned. However, I will say that using the rationale that because one Russian site sold stolen keys that all Russian sites are selling stolen CD keys seems kind of bigoted.

It seems to me that this is more of a precautionary measure to protect gaffers from being scammed and to prevent the site from being accused of condoning the use of stores that sell stolen keys. It's impossible to know how these sites get these keys so preemptively is better to stop any talk about them altogether.

[obonicus]

It's not that I oppose the line, I don't want to buy stolen keys, I'm just having a hard time defining it when games are being sold through so many different avenues.

If you're absolutely sure that the place you're buying from is legit, go ahead with it. Neogaf doesn't dictate morality. Just don't use this board for recommending or linking to any of these sites -- go somewhere else for that. 'Recommending' seems to be defined pretty broadly, so I'd say it's best not to mention those sites on neogaf at all.

[Crayons]

Well, I never bought from those sites so it really doesn't effect me. I never buy new games, I wait until the Steam Christmas sales.

[Gilgamesh]

This falls under the same category as the eBay problem, where you never know if you're purchasing something that was stolen. In such cases, good faith law applies and the buyer can't be put at fault for receiving stolen goods if they were under the impression it was a legal transaction (which you really shouldn't be in this scenario). As such, I support banning the discussion of these CD key resellers.

And if publishers/distributions aren't willing to honor those keys, that's their prerogative. No foul on their part.

[Leondexter]

Let's say I really loved raspberries. And because of depressed prices, the government gave the farmer some subsidies and bought a ton of those raspberries to be shipped overseas for starving countries as food aid. And instead of going to countries in need for starving people, some schemer bought them all up at cheap discount and sent them back to the US... where they then undercut the original farmer by a couple cents. And because raspberries are raspberries, everyone saved a couple cents and bought the cheaper raspberries. So the farmer, who just dumped the subsidized raspberries to eek out a little more profit to stay in business, now suddenly can't sell what inventory he kept and goes bankrupt. This is a problem. Because the schemer who bought and resold the raspberries was never actually in the raspberry business. He was just a parasite to the process, so there's no one to replace the original farmer. Would I be upset I couldn't buy anymore raspberries? You bet I would. I bet raspberries lovers around the country would be.

That's so full of holes you're going to sink the forum. Things like the rasperries spoiling after going around the world, the farmer probably having more than one buyer, there being more than one farmer, the farmer making a profit on the original sale, the farmer's ability to sell at a lower price and still break even because of what was going to be "extra" money from the subsidized sale, the fact that this is a one-time occurrence and not likely to put him out of business, the fact that raspberries are a long-term profit guarantee so he'd be able to get a loan if he needed, and so on. Oh, let's not forget that you would still be able to buy raspberries whether the grocery store bought them from the farmer or the "parasite".

So there are going to be raspberries out there. You can rest easy. If you found them on sale this week, don't have a heart attack wondering if the raspberry market is going under.

[Leondexter]

It's similar to those online communities that are dedicated to buying games on sale and then immediately going to EB Games and trading them in at a higher price. I don't know if that's common in Australia, but any site here dedicated to bargains ends up turning into people looking for trade in fodder and it sucks.

"It sucks". That's some solid reasoning. Just like "it sucks" that, while waiting in line to buy a launch-day Xbox 360, I noticed that most of the people ahead of me were intending to sell it on Ebay. But they have every right to do so, despite the fact that it's irritating to me personally.

[Gav47]

I won't be surprised if gaffers complaining that the MW3 keys they got from the banned sites become unusable on steam. Grey markets keys are easily picked up by steam, just like MW2 steam keys from Asia/Eastern Europe.

I think that was a MW2 thing only. Activision contacted Valve and asked them to remove Russian copies of the game from people with billing addresses in different countries.
It didn't happen with Black Ops as far as I know.

[legend166]

"It sucks". That's some solid reasoning. Just like "it sucks" that, while waiting in line to buy a launch-day Xbox 360, I noticed that most of the people ahead of me were intending to sell it on Ebay. But they have every right to do so, despite the fact that it's irritating to me personally.

Where did I say it should be illegal?

[Forkball]

I learned long ago not to buy something at a 80% off from suspicious Russian websites. I was very fortunate to get an annulment.

[1-D_FTW]

That's so full of holes you're going to sink the forum. Things like the rasperries spoiling after going around the world, the farmer probably having more than one buyer, there being more than one farmer, the farmer making a profit on the original sale, the farmer's ability to sell at a lower price and still break even because of what was going to be "extra" money from the subsidized sale, the fact that this is a one-time occurrence and not likely to put him out of business, the fact that raspberries are a long-term profit guarantee so he'd be able to get a loan if he needed, and so on. Oh, let's not forget that you would still be able to buy raspberries whether the grocery store bought them from the farmer or the "parasite". So there are going to be raspberries out there. You can rest easy. If you found them on sale this week, don't have a heart attack wondering if the raspberry market is going under.

Good god. Really? Clearly my metaphor was completely wasted on you.

[Joseph Merrick]

Not sure about Gamesplanet, are they new? It looks like Gametap.

it is gametap. or, it's metaboli, who also owns gametap. gamesplanet has been around for a long time, it's the normal download/buy site alternative of metaboli. it always seemed like they didn't prefer to advertise they even had this more 'normal' site, since their main site is a different subscription model thing.

[elrechazado]

Good god. Really? Clearly my metaphor was completely wasted on you.

Your metaphor was terrible. Really.

[Weenerz]

I would buy more full prices games if I had some t-shirt money. Too poor.

[bengraven]

I knew this sounded really shady and a bit creepy, so I'm glad this hasn't become too big of a thing before the ban went down on it.

[EviLore]

I would buy more full prices games if I had some t-shirt money. Too poor.

I need someone to make a 4chan meme image for me so I can add a button for it to my reply box, something like...


"GIVE AWAY FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR DESIGN CONTEST AND SET T-SHIRT MARGINS AT ZERO...

...GET TROLLED CONSTANTLY BY COMMUNITY OVER IMAGINARY SHIRT PROFITS"


Would come in handy on a daily basis!

[elrechazado]

I need someone to make a 4chan meme image for me so I can add a button for it to my reply box, something like... "GIVE AWAY FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR DESIGN CONTEST AND SET T-SHIRT MARGINS AT ZERO... ...GET TROLLED CONSTANTLY BY COMMUNITY OVER IMAGINARY SHIRT PROFITS" Would come in handy on a daily basis!

It's clear from this thread that you're investing all of your massive shirt profits into your own soon to be released russian CD key venture and are choosing to eliminate all competition now.

Follow the money.

[LiquidMetal14]

Fair enough. Believe me, I'm very weary and am probably not going that route again. I bought a gift card as to cover myself in terms of not linking my name directly with a purchase. Don't want any spam or some weird stuff coming my way down the line.

[kamspy]

I also have the feeling that in a few months all games are going to be region locked completely, and the issue will be a nullified.

Ultimately, I agree with this. It won't be an issue long enough for it to matter.

[XANDER CAGE]

I need someone to make a 4chan meme image for me so I can add a button for it to my reply box, something like... "GIVE AWAY FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS FOR DESIGN CONTEST AND SET T-SHIRT MARGINS AT ZERO... ...GET TROLLED CONSTANTLY BY COMMUNITY OVER IMAGINARY SHIRT PROFITS" Would come in handy on a daily basis!

I have performed a great evil here today for the good of GAF's overlord. Use it well.

[weekend_warrior]

Is it bannable to admit to have bought a key from such a website?

Des0lar
Banned
(Yesterday, 05:21 PM)
Reply | Quote

Couldn't resist the delicious irony.

[Kerrby]

I also have the feeling that in a few months all games are going to be region locked completely, and the issue will be a nullified.

I hope not, that will just be another fucking down point in this gen.

I've just discovered cheaper options through CD keys and there's no way in hell I'm paying $99 for a new release game just because the publishers feel like screwing over us Australians.

[kruis]

Unfortunatly all of them except Greenman Gaming have region locking and pricing gouing on them for Australians. Not sure about Gamesplanet, are they new? It looks like Gametap.

Greenman Gaming has region locking for most of Europe. I can only buy in Euros which means that games are a *lot* more expensive compared to the dollar price. Americans get great deals, us Europeans are shafted. In fact, it's far cheaper to get a PC game from Amazon.co.uk than Green Man because of this setup.

[kruis]

I don't use these sites and don't care if discussion of them is banned. However, I will say that using the rationale that because one Russian site sold stolen keys that all Russian sites are selling stolen CD keys seems kind of bigoted.

You could make a case that discussions on this forum about hacked/cracked game systems that are supposedly used only for emulation are just as iffy.

[fanboi]

I'm a bit confused.

What about changing region (aka VPN) to unlock steam games early? I might have missed something.

[kruis]

I hope not, that will just be another fucking down point in this gen. I've just discovered cheaper options through CD keys and there's no way in hell I'm paying $99 for a new release game just because the publishers feel like screwing over us Australians.

Don't think you're so special, Australia. Europe has exactly the same prices. If you want cheaper games, get them from the UK.

[The_Player]

Hey Lore, I live in Russia, can I still brag about all super cheap games i bought? :3

[JaseC]

Do we have examples of Valve requesting photographic proof of purchase or publishers later removing games from a user's Steam library that aren't related to the Orange Box territory debacle or Modern Warfare 2, respectively? Because as I far as I'm aware both were isolated incidents.

Hey Lore, I live in Russia, can I still brag about all super cheap games i bought? :3

The ban isn't a blanket ban on discussion pertaining to games purchased in Russia, just via CD key resellers. That is to say, if you purchased your games through retail or a legitimate DD store, you have nothing to worry about.