[NeoandGeo]

So why not ban talk on emulating "legal" games since there is shadiness surrounding? This is a ridiculous blanket ban going from one person that has some wild vendetta against people discussing how to get fair pricing on games.

[confused]

I think you missed out where these sellers obtained illegal keys via fraud. No one knows if it was them or 3rd party but none the less still not a good avenue of obtaining CD keys. I think your confused on the purpose of this thread.

No, I'm informing people of a legal/legit alternative to these sites.

[morningbus]

So why not ban talk on emulating "legal" games since there is shadiness surrounding? This is a ridiculous blanket ban going from one person that has some wild vendetta against people discussing how to get fair pricing on games.

Because banning discussion on Emulation assumes bad faith on the poster. There are perfectly legal ways to create perfectly legal backups of the software you own. Look at the Dolphin thread: one of the first things they do is direct you to a guide on how to rip your Wii games.

However, try and link to one of these ROM sites and just hope a mod doesn't see you.

[I H8 Memes]

I think you missed out where these sellers obtained illegal keys via fraud. No one knows if it was them or 3rd party but none the less still not a good avenue of obtaining CD keys.

That was one instance. There may be a few more, but by and large these key resellers don't commit fraud nor do they need to in order to make a profit. They basically allow people to do the same thing that they do when they use Steams gifting system to bypass regional prices. It is the exact same thing and I dont think it should be encouraged.

The prices on Steam in Australia are the prices in Australia. That is what publishers think customers should be paying there, and allowing people to bypass those regional prices is essentially encouraging the same kind of regional pricing bypass that these key resellers allow. It's just done through a more reputable and trusted vendor in Valve.

[NeoandGeo]

Because banning discussion on Emulation assumes bad faith on the poster. There are perfectly legal ways to create perfectly legal backups of the software you own. Look at the Dolphin thread: one of the first things they do is direct you to a guide on how to rip your Wii games. However, try and link to one of these ROM sites and just hope a mod doesn't see you.

Indeed, emulation is great, and it is awesome we have a community to help with the LEGAL side of it.

This is also why we need clarification on the legitimate side of buying cd keys, and give info and close the discussions on illegitimate side of things. Why can't we give this the same safe haven as emulation and Steam gifting?

[Omikaru]

So why not ban talk on emulating "legal" games since there is shadiness surrounding? This is a ridiculous blanket ban going from one person that has some wild vendetta against people discussing how to get fair pricing on games.

Because it's clear what parts of emulation are legal - using it to play games you own - and what parts aren't - using it to play games you've pirated. GAF policy on piracy applies even to emulation, so we're not going to have threads linking to places to illegally download games, just the emulator. In the end, it's the user's own responsibility to not pirate, to not link to pirate sites on GAF, and to not do anything on GAF that promotes piracy. If they do, then a mod will happily show them the door.

Emulation threads also assumes a degree of good faith on the part of the poster: that they are buying legitimate games through the proper channels and paying the developer/publisher their dues for that software. That's, of course, no different than any of the other gaming discussion going on in this forum. When an Xbox 360 game is discussed, for example, we expect that the people paid for the game and aren't running it from a gold disc on their modded console, or whatever. The same goes for the people who imported Xenoblade from the UK and modded their Wii to play it.

With key sites, it's really not clear which ones are selling good keys (i.e. un stolen keys), which ones are selling bad keys (i.e. robbed from a shop or obtained via fraud), or what hoops you'll have to jump through to get them to work. Many of them are a scam for the developer or another retailer since they're stolen through one way or another, and it's the equivalent to buying stuff from the dodgy bloke at a car boot sale, who claims the box of unopened games he's selling "fell off a lorry". Maybe they did. Maybe they didn't. How do you know? Best to not buy anything from him just in case.

Comparing the promotion of buying obviously dodgy keys to a good faith assumption that the game people are discussing is one they paid for is absurd.

[morningbus]

Indeed, emulation is great, and it is awesome we have a community to help with the LEGAL side of it. This is also why we need clarification on the legitimate side of buying cd keys, and give info and close the discussions on illegitimate side of things. Why can't we give this the same safe haven as emulation and Steam gifting?

Because with emulation, the act of breaking the law is on the poster. If you download a game you don't own, you are the one crossing that line. That's why this side of the equation isn't banned. We assume good faith in everyone that posts here.

The site offering up the ROM is probably breaking the law (depending on jurisdiction) and that is why linking to a specific rom site or torrent file is forbidden.

I don't think anyone is going to ban you for saying you got a key off a cd-key site. Even though it requires less good faith on you (because, while you are doing nothing wrong, it can be hard for you to be absolutely certain of the legitimacy of the key you were sold).

However, naming the site you bought it from, the most pivotal part of any community or thread you'd want to have, is forbidden, much like naming specific ROM sites.

[LiK]

yeah there pretty risky, can't believe people actually gave steam credentials just so they can add a game to there account.

Yup, self inflicted wound.

[Sanjay]

Just because something is X doesn't mean this site has to facilitate it. Porn is legal, but there isn't a community thread for the legit porn sites.

Damn this is 100% proof.

I was going to argue this but I'm to busy looking at pirates porn.

[NeoandGeo]

The vast majority of the sites are completely legitimate, and there was discussion on which ones were not legitimate. It's the EXACT same thing as Steam gifting threads by bypassing regional pricing.

However, naming the site you bought it from, the most pivotal part of any community or thread you'd want to have, is forbidden, much like naming specific ROM sites.

Then it should be bannable for people helping others around regional pricing with Steam gifting. Double standards are pointless. Not that hard of a concept to grasp.

[morningbus]

Sanjay, could you suggest a list of websites on which I might obtain such pornography?

[confused]

Sanjay, could you suggest a list of websites on which I might obtain such pornography?

Google, your portal to porn ;)

[morningbus]

Google, your portal to porn ;)

But I need to know what is good. I need to have a page on this forum to tell me what sites I should visit!

[NeoandGeo]

If this was a porn site, you would get that wish fulfilled. Yet it is a game site, so legitimate game wishes should get fulfilled.

[tokkun]

You could make a case that discussions on this forum about hacked/cracked game systems that are supposedly used only for emulation are just as iffy.

Sure. However the subtext of this thread seems to be that because sites are Russian, they are assumed to be run by thieves and scammers whereas if the keys are sold by stores in the rest of Europe or North America, they are assumed to be legit.

Imagine for a moment that Direct2Drive was caught selling a game without a license. Do you think the conclusion would be that all US download services were pirating games? Of course not. That's where I see ethnic discrimination being applied.

[morningbus]

If this was a porn site, you would get that wish fulfilled. Yet it is a game site, so legitimate game wishes should get fulfilled.

Go test this theory. Make an OT asking for your favorite porn links. See what happens.

[NeoandGeo]

Go test this theory. Make an OT asking for your favorite porn links. See what happens.

Off the rocker, this man is. I said this is not a porn discussing site, so it's not tolerated in any way. Did you even read my post or just scan "porn/wish/fulfilled" and laugh while typing out a message that had nothing to do with the discussion?

Sure. However the subtext of this thread seems to be that because sites are Russian, they are assumed to be run by thieves and scammers whereas if the keys are sold by stores in the rest of Europe or North America, they are assumed to be legit. Imagine for a moment that Direct2Drive was caught selling a game without a license. Do you think the conclusion would be that all US download services were pirating games? Of course not. That's where I see ethnic discrimination being applied.

Going by the new policy, Direct2Drive would never be allowed to be discussed again if they even accidentally had one stolen copy sold and someone mentioned it. :D

[NeoandGeo]

DP

[confused]

So what if we found out someone here or elsewhere used stolen creditcards to send Gifts through Steam ?

[morningbus]

Off the rocker, this man is. I said this is not a porn discussing site, so it's not tolerated in any way. Did you even read my post or just scan "porn/wish/fulfilled" and laugh while typing out a message that had nothing to do with the discussion?

Oh, I forgot we had an OT. Go tell those clowns to shut down their NFL thread. All topics are discussed here. The reason porn isn't discussed here isn't as simple as "we're not a porn site."

Going by the new policy, Direct2Drive would never be allowed to be discussed again if they even accidentally had one stolen copy sold and someone mentioned it. :D

And yet the difference is that D2D has a business model that makes it impossible for them to sell stolen keys.

Get a grip man.

Edit:

So what if we found out someone here or elsewhere used stolen creditcards to send Gifts through Steam ?

He would be banned? And I'd assume they'd turn over any information they had to the appropriate authorities?

[NeoandGeo]

So what if we found out someone here or elsewhere used stolen creditcards to send Gifts through Steam ?

Then the Steam gifting thread would be closed, and a new policy banning the mere talk of it, would be enacted.

And yet the difference is that D2D has a business model that makes it impossible for them to sell stolen keys.

Yes, no illegal activity ever happens on the inside of the industry.

[morningbus]

Yes, no illegal activity ever happens on the inside of the industry.

Explain to me how D2D would assume possession of stolen keys.

[confused]

Explain to me how D2D would assume possession of stolen keys.

Well, Steam sells Warez...

Rockstar uses No-cd crack for Max Payne 2

Ubisoft does the same to fix Rainbow Six Vegas 2

[NeoandGeo]

I forgot, nothing shady goes on inside the game industry itself. My apologies.

[morningbus]

I forgot, nothing shady goes on inside the game industry itself. My apologies.

So you can't explain how D2D would obtain stolen keys?

So you're presenting a strawman?

So you're straight trollin'?

[NeoandGeo]

Trolling on behalf of the D2D statement, yes. But as a whole this policy is batshit insane, and we need to do away with the Steam gifting thread since it is exactly the same as buying a key from a different region. The double standard because of one poster whining to the staff on one incident that hasn't been proven or disproven is ridiculous.

End of story.

[morningbus]

Trolling on behalf of the D2D statement, yes. But as a whole this policy is batshit insane, and we need to do away with the Steam gifting thread since it is exactly the same as buying a key from a different region. End of story.

Much like the argument over emulation you walked away from, banning the Steam Gifting thread assumes bad faith on the posters of this forum.

But, please, either keep trolling or walk away from this because you have no counter argument.

[NeoandGeo]

The only trolling is this new policy and the OP here, which ignores the EXACT same region loophole of the Steam gift thread. The original whiner even ended with "I don't really know though".

With the emulation topic I wasn't walking away from it, I was explaining the silliness of the double standard of not assuming good faith in the legitimate key sites, since you like to use that term so much. Maybe you understand better since I used it?

Probably not.

[morningbus]

The only trolling is this new policy and the OP here, which ignores the EXACT same region loophole of the Steam gift thread. The original whiner even ended with "I don't really know though".

Look, I understand why you won't directly respond to my points, because they are god-like and infallible.

Edit: Good faith is something usually given to people, not companies operating in the grey market.

The problem is not the region these games are coming from but the sites selling these games. The reason why this doesn't translate to Steam gifting is that there is no way for a user to buy bulk cd-keys from a source (legal or not) and distribute them through Steam. Currently, the user is Russia must purchase the game through Steam and send it as a gift.

That is a completely different thing than what these cd-key selling sites do.

[Blimblim]

The only trolling is this new policy and the OP here, which ignores the EXACT same region loophole of the Steam gift thread. The original whiner even ended with "I don't really know though".

Where did I whine? I only said that *yes* some sites are doing illegal stuff. I never asked for the other thread to be locked or whatever. I just happened to be in a position where I could tell the factual fact that there was some danger to some of these sites, even some with a good reputation and thought it would be a good idea to let people know. What happened afterwards has never been my intention.

[NeoandGeo]

Ahh, so if random people do it, it's ok. But when someone makes a business out of it, it's bad. I completely understand now. Thanks.

Where did I whine? I only said that *yes* some sites are doing illegal stuff. I never asked for the other thread to be locked or whatever. I just happened to be in a position where I could tell the factual fact that there was some danger to some of these sites, even some with a good reputation like and thought it would be a good idea to let people know. What happened afterwards has never been my intention.

And it should have been opened up and not covered up and have a blanket ban come forth. We should have discussed what site it was, put it on the ban list and keep the legitimate side of things rocking.

[morningbus]

Ahh, so if random people do it, it's ok. But when someone makes a business out of it, it's bad. I completely understand now. Thanks.

Yes, when you can't actually refute the logic of my post, reply with sarcasm.

You're totally winning this argument!

[NeoandGeo]

Yes, when you can't actually refute the logic of my post, reply with sarcasm. You're totally winning this argument!

No sarcasm. You said it is ok when done on a personal level, but when it's done on a large scale it is a gray market.

[confused]

Yes, when you can't actually refute the logic of my post, reply with sarcasm. You're totally winning this argument!

Yet you totally dodged my post about Steam selling Warez.

[morningbus]

No sarcasm. You said it is ok when done on a personal level, but when it's done on a large scale it is a gray market.

The CD-keys, bought by a Russian user and gifted to another user through Steam will always, always, always be 100% legal and legitimate keys.

Yet you totally dodged my post about Steam selling Warez.

Those are cracks sold with games put up by the publishers. The cracks themselves aren't illegal. It's applying them to a pirated piece of software. It isn't like Steam is selling you Photoshop for a penny.

[Blimblim]

And it should have been opened up and not covered up and have a blanket ban come forth. We should have discussed what site it was, put it on the ban list and keep the legitimate side of things rocking.

By the time I finished posting the G2Play example (because I had to go and find it, because I like to have facts and not just be vague), the thread was locked, and I just went to bed before Evilore created this new one.
This new policy is what it is, but I have nothing to do with it. My comment might have been the point where it was decided that it was the tiping point for the old topic, but I never asked for anything.

[NeoandGeo]

^It was the tipping point, and because it was shrouded and danced around with no affirmative action, we all lose now.

The CD-keys, bought by a Russian user and gifted to another user through Steam will always, always, always be 100% legal and legitimate keys.

What if the user obtained the key with a stolen credit card?

[eosos]

Meh, I thought about buying from intkey but didn't. Hopefully steam will see this as a need to price their games more competitively due to a global market.

[morningbus]

Blaming BlimBlim is totally unfair. Evilore was already incredibly antsy over the nature of these sites and was essentially looking for a reason to finally get rid of them.

^It was the tipping point, and because it was shrouded and danced around with no affirmative action, we all lose now. What if the user obtained the key with a stolen credit card?

A person isn't going to be using a stolen credit card to send games at-cost via Steam, one at a time. The card would be discovered too soon. There is no way for the person to bulk stockpile cd-keys, thus the scam just wouldn't be worth it.

[NeoandGeo]

Yep. That is totally the right way to go about things. :p

[I H8 Memes]

Meh, I thought about buying from intkey but didn't. Hopefully steam will see this as a need to price their games more competitively due to a global market.

Steam does not set the prices on games that are not made by Valve, publishers do. Publishers want people in other territories to pay a certain amount and people are circumventing that using the Steam gifting system.

If this were for content, like buying an uncensored version of a game in Germany, then I would be less bothered by it. But Steam gifting is mostly used so people dont have to pay what publishers want people to pay for their games. This isnt fair to the publishers, and it is really unfair for brick & mortar stores in those regions.

[JaseC]

Steam does not set the prices on games that are not made by Valve, publishers do. Publishers want people in other territories to pay a certain amount and people are circumventing that using the Steam gifting system. If this were for content, like buying an uncensored version of a game in Germany, then I would be less bothered by it. But Steam gifting is mostly used so people dont have to pay what publishers want people to pay for their games. This isnt fair to the publishers, and it is really unfair for brick & mortar stores in those regions.

What "isn't fair" is setting an AUD$100 RRP at both digital and retail when there is absolutely no tangible excuse for it. I'll continue to purchase my games through alternate digital (e.g. Steam's gifting system; I'll soon be enlisting the help of a US GAFer for the purpose of obtaining AC: Revelations for USD$50) and retail (i.e. importing; typically from the UK) avenues until this changes.

Furthermore, I take no issue with purchasing Steam games at full price if there is no "Aussie Tax" applied, but unfortunately Valve seem to be the only "AAA" publisher who practice this.

[Grimm Fandango]

^It was the tipping point, and because it was shrouded and danced around with no affirmative action, we all lose now.

So because he was telling a story from experience, we all lose? Not at all; I'm all for more people bringing in examples of shady sites. And I'd rather the discussion just end than more people getting scammed.

The bottom line is it's a dangerous game doing any kind of VPN workaround, stolen keys or not. EviLore chose to not have it discussed here and so be it.

[DoctorWho]

Meh, I thought about buying from intkey but didn't. Hopefully steam will see this as a need to price their games more competitively due to a global market.

Steam's prices have always seemed fair to me. If you don't like the publisher set starting price, you can always wait for one of their sales. Steam isn't the problem.

Blaming Blim seems silly. He was just making people aware of the fact that they may be buying stolen keys. The last thing you want to do is buy a stolen key that may be banned down the line.

[NeoandGeo]

So because he was telling a story from experience, we all lose? Not at all; I'm all for more people bringing in examples of shady sites. And I'd rather the discussion just end than more people getting scammed. The bottom line is it's a dangerous game doing any kind of VPN workaround, stolen keys or not. EviLore chose to not have it discussed here and so be it.

We did lose a good community discussion helping users in the right direction of the legitimate sites. I'm thankful that I got in before the thread was stolen from us since I now know what sites were legitimate, and I have been helped in the exact same manner as those in the Steam gifting thread.

Thanks to those that helped. RIP one of the greatest threads on NeoGaf.

[Durante]

I hope that in the wake of this the issues of disreputable key sources and regional pricing for poor regions aren't conflated with the general "western world" region problem.

Regional pricing (at least throughout the EU, US, Australia and Canada), region locking, regional release dates and regional content differences are all anachronisms in this day and age of digital distribution, and only illustrate the refusal of publishers to adapt to change. Such policies deserve to be mocked and thwarted at every opportunity.

Sorry guys, but you can't "win" against multi-billion dollar corporations. They will find a way to enforce their rules eventually, and it's going to be at the expense of someone. The most we can do is take a stand, not fight them. Don't try and circumvent their region restrictions, as it's only going to make matters worse.

That's a horrible, defeatist attitude. I for one will continue to do my utmost to circumvent regional pricing, in "first-world" regions. But IMHO the best way to do that is private Steam gifting.

[Wanchan]

To clarify my statement from the other thread, I don't mean to say that all these sites are actually doing illegal business, but many of them don't care about where the keys come from as long as they are cheap. I'll just leave this example: http://forum.bloodbowl-game.com/view...lit=g2play#p80 It's in French, but it's a developer from Cyanide confirming that G2Play was selling stolen keys (stolen from game's official store, which was the ONLY place in the world where you could get the game, since it was released first digitally only and exclusively on the official store). They more than likely bought them from someone else who actually did the credit card fraud, but it's still a very shady way to do business. Back before steam became so popular, it was pretty easy to spot the retailers doing this because they would sell the key and basically tell you to download the game itself from thepiratebay. Nowadays, it's much more difficult.

Well i remember this story very much since i'm one of the poor people that bought the game off G2play.....and G2Play didn't say at that time they bought their keys from "boxed" version (people lied and told Cyanide that trying to get a refund), G2play said on their website that their supplier sold them those keys and when they learned those keys were stolen, they blackmail their supplier, deleted those keys and refunded all people.

Is G2play at fault for buying those keys without checking if they were stolen before? maybe.

But i wouldn't call that a shady store, no harms done at the end, and that's only 1 case among how many games they sold now without problems? 500 maybe more? so you're using this one problem, not even on the US (and we know Gaf is primarily a US board) as a proof to ban all those keys website on a US board...well done.

PS : not trying to defend those "shady" websites/stores here, just saying that using the "Cyanide adventure" as a proof to ban those websites is really dumb.

[Dexa]

i dont see the point of this - if the distributors decide to sell the games cheap, hurray for the consumers.

[DoctorWho]

i dont see the point of this - if the distributors decide to sell the games cheap, hurray for the consumers.

It's a lot more complicated than that. If some of these cd key sites are selling stolen keys, Gaffers could end up with disabled keys down the road. Also, Evilore is concerned with these sites being presented as "cheaper alternatives" without any of the pitfalls or issues being made clear to the potential consumer.

[NeoandGeo]

The legitimate sites themselves explain in detail what you are getting into, if the game can be activated anywhere, or only through a VPN, etc, can be played online, etc. The worst that will happen is if the keys end up being illegitimate is a refund. In the case of Russian keys, having to play through a VPN for the life of the game may have to be put up with. But if you buy a game for 60% off, anyone should realize there may be a risk like that involved.

The most important thing to note is most of the sites are Paypal verified, so buying has little to no risk.