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henhowc
(12-10-2011, 07:27 PM)
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Myself and others have been voicing our concerns about a video playback bug in the new Xbox 360 dashboard. In effect the 360 appears to be setting incorrect black levels for all video playback (i.e. all video apps, Windows Media Center, Dashboard videos, etc.) which is resulting in washed out colors and blacks appearing as gray. This is in contrast to the old NXE dash which did not exhibit these color inaccuracies. Quoting a poster at AVSforum:

Previously, Standard reference level corresponded to 16-235 black/white levels. On the new dashboard, none of the reference levels play video back at 16-235, meaning no matter how you calibrate your display, there will be a discrepancy between video content and the dashboard/games. Intermediate and Extended both clip black ABOVE digital 16 now, which makes them unusable.

Beta/Preview Feedback Bug Report (LINK IS DEAD...DELETED BY MS...Sigh)
Xbox.com Support Forum Thread Discussing the Issue

I know I've posted this a few times in the threads related to the new dashboard but I figured a separate thread might help better get the word out and get more people involved in verifying and reporting the issues discussed to Microsoft and the XBox team. Thanks for reading.

UPDATE From Digital Foundry: (Yay someone read my e-mail!)

Hi,

Thanks for the message.
I am actually looking into this now.

I put the Skyrim timelapse we produced onto a USB drive and grabbed it via the 360, and then extracted the same frame from the original file. I put these files into Photoshop and used ďLevelsĒ to bring up a histogram for both images (attached).

As you can see, the entire colour range has been compressed. Blacks are indeed no longer black and the darkest colour does seem to be around RGB level 235, which would suggest limited range RGB being implemented. However, there is still information in the 0-16 range, which we should not be seeing.

We get different colour shifts depending on whether limited, intermediate or expanded levels are set. The same file played on PS3 looks nothing like any of them!

Iíll post something about it when Iíve done a more thorough analysis, but yes, itís clearly borked.

UPDATE 2: Digital Foundry has posted their article.

UPDATE 3: The dashboard preview/beta is officially over with no resolution or official comment about this issue from Microsoft. The preview feedback made by testers is no longer viewable. Digital Foundry is supposedly working on another article that more fully details the issues with video playback on the dashboard compared to the NXE. I'm crossing my fingers that more media outlets will pick this up after the second article is posted. Eurogamer follow-up article posted.

UPDATE 4: Microsoft acknowledges issue via @majornelson tweet

Weíre aware of the colorspace issue w/ some Xbox video apps & are working on a fix. No ETA yet but we hope to have an update soon.

Last edited by henhowc; 01-20-2012 at 05:07 AM. Reason: New information available
Elginer
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(12-10-2011, 08:47 PM)
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Thanks for posting this. I've noticed it and am leaving some comments on their survey to fix this. It's very noticeable as my blacks are now dark grays. It's even worse in apps like Netflix and Hulu.
Sagitario
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(12-10-2011, 11:14 PM)
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Is this for video playback only? Games are not affected?
henhowc
(12-11-2011, 02:48 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sagitario

Is this for video playback only? Games are not affected?

As far as I can tell, games seem unaffected.
Psychotext
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(12-11-2011, 02:58 AM)
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Your best bet is probably contacting Richard Leadbetter over at Eurogamer / Digital Foundry. He loves that sort of minutiae. :)
henhowc
(12-11-2011, 03:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by Psychotext

Your best bet is probably contacting Richard Leadbetter over at Eurogamer / Digital Foundry. He loves that sort of minutiae. :)

Already done haha.
NathanMcMahon
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(12-11-2011, 03:02 AM)
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Just to piggy back on this, I've also been having some issues with streaming where the videos never load and don't play. Resetting the 36p appears to fix it but I have never come across thius before the new dashboard. Not sure if it could be related.
henhowc
(12-11-2011, 05:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by moop2000

Just to piggy back on this, I've also been having some issues with streaming where the videos never load and don't play. Resetting the 36p appears to fix it but I have never come across thius before the new dashboard. Not sure if it could be related.

Doesn't sound like its related. We aren't having problems watching videos, the issue we are having is related to how the 360 is outputting color. If you are in the beta you could try looking at the connect site and seeing if anyone else is reporting similar problems to you.
Barkley's Justice
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(12-11-2011, 09:59 AM)
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I see it too in Netflix.

Honestly, this is exactly how the dedicated Hulu app on my HTPC behaves. It drives me *NUTS*. I'v waited a year and a half for Adobe (Flash) or Nvidia (the makers of the ION GPU) to fix it, but...nothing.
Riptwo
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(12-13-2011, 08:10 AM)
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I'm also experiencing this, and earlier this year the same thing happened with my IPTV box when Telus pushed a Microsoft Mediaroom update to it. Not awesome.
henhowc
(12-13-2011, 04:44 PM)
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Still no word from MS regarding this issue and news outlets seem to consider it a non-issue. Crossing my fingers that they will fix it whenever the next wave of apps get released....sigh
JB1981
I am full of shit.
Rich, smooth, creamy shit.
(12-13-2011, 04:50 PM)
Yes its messed up on my end as well
Jin34
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(12-13-2011, 04:53 PM)
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I've always had this problem on the 360 regardless of what setting I had it on, reason why I barely ever use it for video playback.
WickedLaharl
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(12-13-2011, 05:05 PM)
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Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much uproar about this which makes me think it won't be fixed for quite sometime.
Jin34
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(12-13-2011, 06:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by WickedLaharl

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much uproar about this which makes me think it won't be fixed for quite sometime.

Hard to get an uproar about it since most people play on shitty LCDs with terrible black levels, so the dark greys are what they consider black already.

/LCD trolling.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
(12-13-2011, 06:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by WickedLaharl

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much uproar about this which makes me think it won't be fixed for quite sometime.

On a scale from 1-10, how important is it?
henhowc
(12-13-2011, 07:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by LiquidMetal14

On a scale from 1-10, how important is it?

For people who have gone through the trouble of calibrating their TVs...I would consider it a 10. With the currently available settings you're either going to get grey blacks with washed out colors or the video will be too dark with crushed blacks.

For people who don't watch video this is a 1...since the issue doesn't appear to affect games (unless there is some kind of FMV being played).

For people who just leave their TVs on the VIVID/Torch mode that TVs usually default to. This is also probably a 1 since they don't know any better and probably consider this to be normal operation.
henhowc
(12-13-2011, 11:57 PM)
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Huh...looks like Microsoft removed the bug report from the site.
Gowans
(12-13-2011, 11:59 PM)
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I've just noticed this on the video apps I've just been checking out.

Everything is so washed out, it looks soooo bad.
henhowc
(12-14-2011, 10:18 AM)
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Anyone personally know anyone in the gaming media who might be able to post about this on their site? Tried sending "tips" to various gaming news/blog outlets to no avail.
MikeHaggar
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(12-14-2011, 10:37 AM)
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i can't believe they just deleted all of the bug reports about this. that's really messed up.

on a side note, i submitted a bug report early on in the beta about the box art for indie titles not loading properly after you exit either an indie game or an arcade game using the "exit game" option from the game's main menu (and are take to "my game library").

they closed it saying it was an "intended feature", which is ridiculous, so i opened another one for the same issue and explained that there's no way this is an intended feature and if i'm going to take the time to give my feedback then i'd appreciate that it's at least taken seriously.

well, it seems they have just up and deleted that bug report also... what's baffling to me is that this video bug as well as the box art bug CANNOT be that hard to resolve. i would imagine someone could fix both of those in an afternoon. either the dash is written in such a way that neither of those things can be fixed (which i highly doubt) or they are so swamped with other issues that neither of these can be addressed.

my guess is that they are so busy getting all of these apps ready to roll-out that they just don't have the time to fix these other things. i imagine that these issues will get resolved in the future once all of the apps have been rolled out and are stable.
henhowc
(12-14-2011, 10:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by MikeHaggar

my guess is that they are so busy getting all of these apps ready to roll-out that they just don't have the time to fix these other things. i imagine that these issues will get resolved in the future once all of the apps have been rolled out and are stable.

I'd understand if they closed/deleted DUPLICATE bug reports. But the ones that get the most upvotes and ""User(s) can reproduce this bug" numbers? Makes no sense. I hope you are right and this doesn't just get swept under the rug...
henhowc
(12-15-2011, 10:13 PM)
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Bueller?... Bueller?... Bueller?
henhowc
(12-15-2011, 11:47 PM)
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This is garbage.

Thanks for the feedback! Though we will not be able to incorporate your feedback into this release we will save it for consideration in future releases.

Thanks for using the new Xbox Update and please keep up the feedback!

pakkit
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(12-15-2011, 11:50 PM)
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I noticed it immediately on the Youtube app. It applies to Netflix and Hulu too?
henhowc
(12-15-2011, 11:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by pakkit

I noticed it immediately on the Youtube app. It applies to Netflix and Hulu too?

I'm pretty sure it affects all video playback.
burgerdog
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(12-16-2011, 12:00 AM)
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Noticed it as soon as I watched a video on YouTube. I want my blacks back, MS.
henhowc
(12-16-2011, 09:00 AM)
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Finally some backing from Digital Foundry!

Hi,

Thanks for the message.
I am actually looking into this now.

I put the Skyrim timelapse we produced onto a USB drive and grabbed it via the 360, and then extracted the same frame from the original file. I put these files into Photoshop and used ďLevelsĒ to bring up a histogram for both images (attached).

As you can see, the entire colour range has been compressed. Blacks are indeed no longer black and the darkest colour does seem to be around RGB level 235, which would suggest limited range RGB being implemented. However, there is still information in the 0-16 range, which we should not be seeing.

We get different colour shifts depending on whether limited, intermediate or expanded levels are set. The same file played on PS3 looks nothing like any of them!

Iíll post something about it when Iíve done a more thorough analysis, but yes, itís clearly borked.

Thunder Monkey
(12-16-2011, 09:19 AM)
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I haven't updated my 360 yet, but I'm tempted to just to send MS a bug report.

Not cool to erase the proof and act like nothing is wrong.
henhowc
(12-16-2011, 05:24 PM)
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David Katzmaier (HDTV senior editor at cNET) also replied to my e-mail stating that he would look into it.
Psychotext
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(12-18-2011, 08:16 PM)
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Seems DF posted a story: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...video-playback

They even used the term "borks" in the title. :)
henhowc
(12-18-2011, 10:06 PM)
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bump!
henhowc
(12-19-2011, 12:06 AM)
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More gaming outlets finally starting to pick this up.

http://kotaku.com/5869165/video-play...shboard-report
HammerOfThor
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(12-19-2011, 12:10 AM)
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Since we're on the topic of video playback, I HATE the new Netflix interface.

That being said, I've been noticing off blacks as well, and it really annoying!
henhowc
(12-19-2011, 12:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by HammerOfThor

Since we're on the topic of video playback, I HATE the new Netflix interface.

Yeah...you're not alone. LOL
Barkley's Justice
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(12-19-2011, 10:04 PM)
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good job, OP. this issue is ridiculous.
HammerOfThor
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(12-19-2011, 11:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by henhowc

Yeah...you're not alone. LOL

Didnt see that, thanks :)
sixteen-bit
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(12-19-2011, 11:27 PM)
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Wow, how shitty of them.
henhowc
(12-22-2011, 08:09 PM)
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Sigh...they be closing our feedback tickets again and providing no explanation.
jedimike
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(12-22-2011, 10:10 PM)
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The problem was very obvious to me to the point where I thought someone had accidentally hit the "reset" button in my TV menu. I verified that my TV was still calibrated and new it must have been something in the update.

That being said, it seems to have been fixed at least on some apps. I'll pay more attention to where or if it has been fixed.
henhowc
(12-22-2011, 10:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by jedimike

The problem was very obvious to me to the point where I thought someone had accidentally hit the "reset" button in my TV menu. I verified that my TV was still calibrated and new it must have been something in the update.

That being said, it seems to have been fixed at least on some apps. I'll pay more attention to where or if it has been fixed.

If its being fixed in specific apps that would be great to know...if you can post anything specific that I can check out that would be great. I mainly Netflix and I'm still seeing the washed out colors and grey blacks when comparing this to Netflix on my PS3.
MCD
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(01-07-2012, 08:50 PM)
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http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...h-the-360-dash

This is even more messed up than I thought.
henhowc
(01-07-2012, 09:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by MCD

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...h-the-360-dash

This is even more messed up than I thought.

Yup. I didn't even realize the 1080p thing until the guys over at AVSforum started running their own tests. Hopefully this gets more coverage this time around and grabs MS attention so that they at least fix the black level issue.
henhowc
(01-20-2012, 02:13 AM)
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Quick update From @majornelson Twitter

"We’re aware of the colorspace issue w/ some Xbox video apps & are working on a fix. No ETA yet but we hope to have an update soon."
Last edited by henhowc; 01-20-2012 at 04:47 AM.
pakkit
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(01-20-2012, 02:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by henhowc

Quick update From @majornelson Twitter

"Weíre aware of the colorspace issue w/ some Xbox video apps & are working on a fix. No ETA yet but we hope to have an update soon."

Good to hear.
henhowc
(01-20-2012, 05:22 AM)
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Bump for new thread title. Yay.

Engadget covering it now.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/19/m...1080-hdcp-fix/

Hope to see a fix soon-ish!
MCD
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(01-20-2012, 05:28 AM)
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Awesome.

henhowc, you are the man, baby.
henhowc
(01-20-2012, 05:30 AM)
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http://venturebeat.com/2012/01/19/mi...ox-360-update/

Dean Takahashi. I remember reading a book by him about the original Xbox. :D
Gaspode_T
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(01-20-2012, 05:37 AM)
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That sounds like the sort of thing they would fix in the next system update that comes out, obviously it isn't related to the app themselves so they can't just release a new netflix version. In other words, you might have to wait until next big release worst case scenario...

I haven't noticed any troubles at all and I am watching lots of Netflix...I am not even using 1080p TV though

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