[DXB-KNIGHT]

If FFXIII-2 does bomb, I wonder where they'll go with the series moving forward.

Face Book!

[Spiegel]

If FFXIII-2 does bomb, I wonder where they'll go with the series moving forward.

FFVII remake seems the obvious choice to regain the trust of fans.

[Alrus]

Hm you must be confusing me with someone else or you don't know what level design means :p Regarding FF, you can't compare it to Mario galaxy... There are no sequels to FF's main entry in general. FFX-2 was perceived as a niche game with cosplay and j-pop all around... (by me at least :p).

FF X-2 sold 1.9 mil in Japan, and I think about 4 millions worldwide... That's not niche. And spin-off games never come close to that kind of numbers.

[Perfo]

Doesn't FFXIII-2 have the same production team as FFXIII?

Yes it is. FFXIII-2 is for Square Enix a main title, it's just that they weren't able in the past to build expectations for sequels in this saga and that's why still today people think of XIII-2 as a low budget project made by a secondary team while someone else is building Final Fantasy XV. They want to try to change this attitude probably, but it'll take time. It's obvious that producing a new Final Fantasy every 4-6 years is not anymore profitable for them, and If I have to bet on their ideas for the future of the saga I'd say that they're looking into Bioware's model, creating more jRPGs set in the same universe that is. Like Mass Effect and Dragon Age. If they'll be successful with XIII-2, you can bet you'll see FFXV in the next-gen followed by its sequels too.

[slaughterking]

XIII-2 fundamentally builds on top of everything that XIII established. Be it the setting, the cast or gameplay mechanics. And it says "2" right in the title. You don't get any more sequel-esque than that. X-2 also established that these kind of direct sequels sell more in line with other mainline games than spin-offs.

[lunchwithyuzo]

Hm you must be confusing me with someone else or you don't know what level design means :p Regarding FF, you can't compare it to Mario galaxy... There are no sequels to FF's main entry in general. FFX-2 was perceived as a niche game with cosplay and j-pop all around... (by me at least :p).

FFX-2 sold almost as much as a mainline game, that's why expectations for XIII-2 are different than they would be from something like Crisis Core or Revenant Wings (which are far more different from the mainline entries anyway). I agree it's not exactly a mainline FF, but it's also not really a spinoff in the traditional sense either. Maybe it's own category (direct sequel?) would be best?

[Kenka]

Hm you must be confusing me with someone else or you don't know what level design means :p

*cough* that was cold blooded. I was more refering to the environments (yeah I know what level design means) :-( but you don't need to reply to this one, I was just joking and you probably wouldn't tell us anything anyway

Regarding FF, you can't compare it to Mario galaxy... There are no sequels to FF's main entry in general. FFX-2 was perceived as a niche game with cosplay and j-pop all around... (by me at least :p).

Niche game not really, first week numbers were comparable to a main entry.
It sold really well, just shy of 2 millions while FFX sold about 2.7 millions with all re-entries (source, the_lascar's site).

[Dragon]

FF X-2 sold 1.9 mil in Japan, and I think about 4 millions worldwide... That's not niche. And spin-off games never come close to that kind of numbers.

So it's solely based on sales? So something like Dragon Quest Monsters Joker is not a spinoff?

Yes it is. FFXIII-2 is for Square Enix a main title, it's just that they weren't able in the past to build expectations for sequels in this saga and that's why still today people think of XIII-2 as a low budget project made by a secondary team while someone else is building Final Fantasy XV. They want to try to change this attitude probably, but it'll take time. It's obvious that producing a new Final Fantasy every 4-6 years is not anymore profitable for them, and If I have to bet on their ideas for the future of the saga I'd say that they're looking into Bioware's model, creating more jRPGs set in the same universe that is. Like Mass Effect and Dragon Age. If they'll be successful with XIII-2, you can bet you'll see FFXV in the next-gen followed by its sequels too.

I think it's more that FFXIII had a lot of blowback after launch and people's expectations of it are low. Especially when you consider how much reuse of assets they're doing.

[Laguna]

But, but FFX13-2 is a spin-off... Oh the damage control brigade *facepalm*

[Alrus]

So it's solely based on sales? So something like Dragon Quest Monsters Joker is not a spinoff?

Not even comparable. I'm talking about the FF series, not DQ. FF spin-off never come close to 1.9 mil.

[test_account]

So it's solely based on sales? So something like Dragon Quest Monsters Joker is not a spinoff?

He just ment that it is not niche when it sold that much.

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

iOS.

Nah.

Face Book!

Okay, maybe this might :(

Doesn't FFXIII-2 have the same production team as FFXIII?

Yeah. Which is why that, while the pure cost of making the game is probably pretty low, the opportunity cost is pretty high considering they could have been focusing on XV which might have sold a lot better.

FFVII remake seems the obvious choice to regain the trust of fans.

Yeah, this and the XIV bomb may force their hand...I really hope SE is still talented enough to remake it.

[Takao]

back to the topic: Super Mario Galaxy 2 was no spin-off, we can safely assume that any FF _-2 isn't either. Calling a sequel a spin-off is a bit of stretch (me think).

But the Mario franchise's sequel is a lot different than a Final Fantasy sequel. A Final Fantasy main series sequel is I > II > III > IV > V > VI > VII > VIII > IX > X > XI > XII > XIII > XIV. XIII-2 is a sequel to a main series game, but that doesn't make XIII-2 a main series title.

[Cosmonaut X]

FFVII remake seems the obvious choice to regain the trust of fans.

Very risky though - if XIII-2 does crater on impact, the series will (I'd argue) be in the worst position it's been in in years, with a disaster of an MMORPG, decline in the main series, a bombing semi-sequel and spin-off fatigue.

Rolling out FFVIIr at that point will look like desperation, and if the execution is fluffed it could be hugely damaging.

[lunchwithyuzo]

So it's solely based on sales? So something like Dragon Quest Monsters Joker is not a spinoff?

It's not only based off sales, but even there your Joker 2 comment wouldn't apply (~1.5m vs ~4m mainline).

[orioto]

But, but FFX13-2 is a spin-off... Oh the damage control brigade *facepalm*

Not really, i'll be pleased if it tanks as a main entry actually. That would mean people reject what FF became. Even if the answers for SE will probably be more feacebook games and making FFXV a FPS set in world war 2

[Dragon]

But, but FFX13-2 is a spin-off... Oh the damage control brigade *facepalm*

Not very helpful. I'm trying to understand why FFXIII-2 is a spinoff and other games are not.

Googling the definition nets: "In media, a spin-off is a radio program, television program, video game, or any narrative work, derived from one or more already existing works, that focuses, in particular, in more detail on one aspect of that original work (e.g. a particular topic, character, or event)."

Isn't that what FFXIII-2 is doing? *scratches head*

It's not only based off sales, but even there your Joker 2 comment wouldn't apply (~1.5m vs ~4m mainline).

Okay thanks. Yeah maybe Joker wouldn't be the one to go towards. Just trying to understand this. It isn't to undercut the fact that it looks like XIII-2 is going to sell less than its predecessor.

[Laguna]

Not really, i'll be pleased if it tanks as a main entry actually. That would mean people reject what FF became. Even if the answers for SE will probably be more feacebook games and making FFXV a FPS set in world war 2

While I agree that FF13 isn´t exactly what I wanted from a Final Fantasy. I think that 13-2 is heading back to the right direction again atleast a little and it would be a shame if SQEX came to wrong conclusions if it sells considerably worse than FF13.

@Dragon
I wouldn´t take it too literally. Fact is it´s supposed to be a direct sequel to FF13. We are talking about videogames therefor also gameplay takes a big part for this categorization. Examples for spinoffs, DQ -> DQMonsters - FF -> FFtactics, CrystalChronicles, Mario Jump and Run -> Mario Kart.

[idlewild_]

I never understood why people want games to fail...I thought we'd be above that in a sales thread.



No? Ok, I'll see myself out :(

[orioto]

While I agree that FF13 isn´t exactly what I wanted from a Final Fantasy. I think that 13-2 is heading back to the right direction again atleast a little and it would be a shame if SQEX came to wrong conclusions if it sells considerably worse than FF13.

I'm oftenly wrong in my intuitions, but i think a game doesn't do badly cause of its content.. People (mainstream at least) buy games for the wrong reasons anyway. Cause of the hype, of the characters, of the look of the game... Actually maybe it's the contrary. They buy a game, and if they don't like the content, they don't buy the sequel. That makes thing complicated to analyze...

Maybe they actually hated FFVIII, and that's why they didn't buy FFIX, or at least FF fans drop the ball... Who knows..

[lunchwithyuzo]

Not very helpful. I'm trying to understand why FFXIII-2 is a spinoff and other games are not. Googling the definition nets: "In media, a spin-off is a radio program, television program, video game, or any narrative work, derived from one or more already existing works, that focuses, in particular, in more detail on one aspect of that original work (e.g. a particular topic, character, or event)." Isn't that what FFXIII-2 is doing? *scratches head*

By that definition Mario Galaxy 2 is also a spinoff though, it's exceptionally broad.

I don't think it's really accurate to class XIII-2 as either mainline (like VII or XII) or a spinoff (like Crisis Core or Revenant Wings) in the traditional sense. It's something else.

[electroplankton]

FFVII remake seems the obvious choice to regain the trust of fans.

It depends whether they will keep the game unchanged or they will fill it with a new battle system and the like.

[Perfo]

I don't think it's really accurate to class XIII-2 as either mainline (like VII or XII) or a spinoff (like Crisis Core or Revenant Wings) in the traditional sense. It's something else.

And that's exactly what I was pointing out. The inability of Square Enix to market a sequel, because that's a sequel, as a sequel worth of attention. You see Assassin's Creed 2 naturally selling more than the first, like Halo 2 and Mass Effect 2. Because people knows that by buying a sequel they get probably a better game too. But Square Enix has never been able to market its sequels like this, that's why people speaks of "spin-offs" or "something else" but definitely "not sequels". And it'll be hard to change this, because this is their fault from the beginning when they started to develop too many crappy side-stories or even a full sequel like X-2 that didn't live up to the standards of the original. At the same time, Square Enix to survive needs to start teaching its audience that a sequel can indeed be a better game and what people should look at. As I said before, developing a new entry with those long cycles of before it's not anymore profitable for them. That has to change, making sequels it's the fastest way. Of course it'll take more than XIII-2 to change the way the people sees sequels in the Final Fantasy saga, but they'll have to try their best in changing this attitude if they want the saga to live longer.

[Road]

I never understood why people want games to fail...I thought we'd be above that in a sales thread.

It's very simple:

- It's not for the system of my god hardware manufacturer;
- It's not to my tastes.

99% of time it'll be one of those reasons, or both.

[Laguna]

I'm oftenly wrong in my intuitions, but i think a game doesn't do badly cause of its content.. People (mainstream at least) buy games for the wrong reasons anyway. Cause of the hype, of the characters, of the look of the game... Actually maybe it's the contrary. They buy a game, and if they don't like the content, they don't buy the sequel. That makes thing complicated to analyze... Maybe they actually hated FFVIII, and that's why they didn't buy FFIX, or at least FF fans drop the ball... Who knows..

Yes, FF13 probably didn´t met all expectations for some/many? fans and there were also a lot of complaints in message boards, so this is probably one of the reasons. There are also other circumstances like other really popular recent releases, 3DS hype and the Vita release is also around the corner that may have affected the hype for FF13-2.

[Gravijah]

Not very helpful. I'm trying to understand why FFXIII-2 is a spinoff and other games are not. Googling the definition nets: "In media, a spin-off is a radio program, television program, video game, or any narrative work, derived from one or more already existing works, that focuses, in particular, in more detail on one aspect of that original work (e.g. a particular topic, character, or event)." Isn't that what FFXIII-2 is doing? *scratches head*

"A sequel is a narrative, documental, or other work of literature, film, theatre, or music that continues the story of or expands upon issues presented in some previous work. In the common context of a narrative work of fiction, a sequel portrays events set in the same fictional universe as a previous work, usually chronologically following the events of that work."

edit: you know what, i don't even know. it's whatever man. whatever~

[Kiriku]

I don't think it's really accurate to class XIII-2 as either mainline (like VII or XII) or a spinoff (like Crisis Core or Revenant Wings) in the traditional sense. It's something else.

Sequel^2?

[orioto]

It's very simple: - It's not for the system of my god hardware manufacturer; - It's not to my tastes. 99% of time it'll be one of those reasons, or both.

sometimes wanting the death of something means wanting its rebirth!

[Effect]

If FFXIII-2 does bomb, I wonder where they'll go with the series moving forward.

Mainline entry on the 3DS and/or Vita seems the most likely to me. It's also the only way I think they can escape the hole they've dug for themselves by allowing the primary Final Fantasy series to be so graphics and cinematic heavy. Also it should help them escape the expectations people have (and that they've help build up) that each entry will be better then the last on that front. They have to break this.

There is no reason why this can't be done. Dragon Quest IX has proven that things will be just fine. The upcoming Monster Hunter 4 will be okay as well.

[Kenka]

I don't think it's really accurate to class XIII-2 as either mainline (like VII or XII) or a spinoff (like Crisis Core or Revenant Wings) in the traditional sense. It's something else.

It's a sequel to a main entry in the series. We have only one precedent, it sold roughly 1.9/2.7 = 70% of the total of the first game.

We can assume that if the ratio is significantly smaller this time, the sequel was a bad bad idea.

[walking fiend]

Mainline entry on the 3DS and/or Vita seems the most likely to me. It's also the only way I think they can escape the hole they've dug for themselves by allowing the primary Final Fantasy series to be so graphics and cinematic heavy. Also it should help them escape the expectations people have (and that they've help build up) that each entry will be better then the last on that front. They have to break this. There is no reason why this can't be done. Dragon Quest IX has proven that things will be just fine. The upcoming Monster Hunter 4 will be okay as well.

What would be the use for a non-cinematic and epic FF? Why should they escape from, why would they want, why would we want?!

[[Nintex]]

if you can think you can bomb this chocobo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEUOOgNzOv4

bombaaaaa

[airmangataosenai]

What are people even basing this doom and gloom on? People always jump the gun on shit like this.

[Effect]

What would be the use for a non-cinematic and epic FF? Why should they escape from, why would they want, why would we want?!

Money and time. Aren't those the reasons why it takes them so long to put out these games and why the cost of them is going up and up. Meanwhile sales are going down. Those two elements while great seem like they could be making the franchise and the company as a whole less profitable.

[lunchwithyuzo]

It's a sequel to a main entry in the series. We have only one precedent, it sold roughly 1.9/2.7 = 70% of the total of the first game. We can assume that if the ratio is significantly smaller this time, the sequel was a bad bad idea.

Wouldn't it be 1.9/2.3? Or are you only adding Best sales to X?

[BladeoftheImmortal]

I'm thinking it will get to 800k at least. not that good for an FF, though. I don't think it will be that big of a boon for HW either. probably 70k on PS3s. Mostly bundles. Although, all things considered XIII-2 looks to be what XIII should've been (maybe because it's half of what XIII wanted to be /smirk)

[Kenka]

Wouldn't it be 1.9/2.3? Or are you only adding Best sales to X?

I am. OK, you may count them out, the ratio is even higher (82%). FFX-2 sales were really good.

[M_Night]

Wada not giving initial shipment figures is not a good sign at all.

Many people were confident that the opening week would hit 1 mil, but I think there's a very good chance it might not with all the signs (amazon discount, no reports on lines, no shipment numbers and the pre-order point level thing).

[Mpl90]

Famitsu Software Sales: Week 49, 2011 (Nov 28 - Dec 04)

01. / 00. [3DS] Mario Kart 7 (Nintendo) - 451.932 / 451.932 {01/12/11}
02. / 00. [PS3] Mobile Suit Gundam: Extreme Vs. (Bandai Namco) - 345.053 / 345.053 {01/12/11}
03. / 05. [3DS] Super Mario 3D Land (Nintendo) - 69.125 / 612.057 {03/11/11}
04. / 00. [PS3] Assassin's Creed: Revelations (Ubisoft) - 40.440 / 40.440 {01/12/11}
05. / 00. [WII] Itadaki Street Wii (Square Enix) - 35.811 / 35.811 {01/12/11}
06. / 01. [WII] The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword (Nintendo) - 33.367 / 228.261 {23/11/11}
07. / 00. [WII] Kamen Rider: Climax Heores Fourze (Bandai Namco) - 21.736 / 21.736 {01/12/11}
08. / 00. [NDS] Power Pro Kun Pocket 14 (Konami) - 21.689 / 21.689 {01/12/11}
09. / 00. [PSP] Kamen Rider: Climax Heores Fourze (Bandai Namco) - 19.929 / 19.929 {01/12/11}
10. / 02. [PSP] 7th Dragon 2020 (Sega) - 19.731 / 133.299 {23/11/11}
11. / 00. [PS3] The King of Fighters XIII (SNK Playmore) - 17.642 / 17.642 {01/12/11}
12. / 15. [WII] Kirby's Return to Dream Land (Nintendo) - 17.092 / 265.023 {27/10/11}
13. / 10. [NDS] One Piece: Gigant Battle 2 – New World (Bandai Namco) - 16.696 / 151.639 {17/11/11}
14. / 25. [WII] Wii Party (Nintendo) - 15.793 / 1.982.786 {08/07/10}
15. / 19. [WII] Wii Sports Resort (Nintendo) - 15.722 / 2.627.382 {25/06/09}
16. / 03. [PSP] Little Battler Xperience: Boost (Level 5) - 15.477 / 74.925 {23/11/11}
17. / 20. [WII] Just Dance Wii (Nintendo) - 14.648 / 240.526 {13/10/11}
18. / 09. [PS3] Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 – Subtitled Edition (Square Enix) - 13.605 / 240.824 {17/11/11}
19. / 04. [PS3] Metal Gear Solid HD Edition (Konami) - 13.534 / 72.398 {23/11/11}
20. / 00. [PS3] Tekken Hybrid (Bandai Namco) - 13.496 / 13.496 {01/12/11}
21. / 11. [WII] Taiko Drum Master Wii: Definitive Edition (Bandai Namco) - 12.822 / 38.165 {23/11/11}
22. / 21. [WII] Pokepark 2: Beyond the World (Pokemon Co.) - 11.701 / 73.200 {10/11/11}
23. / 06. [PS3] Saint Seya: Sanctuary Battle (Bandai Namco) - 10.568 / 66.083 {23/11/11}
24. / 13. [PS3] Ni No Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch (Level 5) - 9.327 / 98.773 {17/11/11}
25. / 00. [3DS] Dragon Quest Heroes: Rocket Slime 3 (Square Enix) - 9.169 / 80.585 {02/11/11}
26. / 00. [WII] Mario Kart Wii (Nintendo) - 7.937 / 3.298.179 {10/04/08}
27. / 29. [WII] Go Vacation (Bandai Namco) - 7.226 / 109.331 {20/10/11}
28./ 00. [360] Assassin's Creed: Revelations (Ubisoft) - 7.162 / 7.162 {01/12/11}
29. / 00. [3DS] Nintendogs + cats (Nintendo) - 6.657 / 378.098 {26/02/11}
30. / 00. [WII] Everyone's Rhythm Heaven (Nintendo) - 6.324 / 564.124 {21/07/11}

Top 30

WII - 12
PS3 - 8
3DS - 4
PSP - 3
NDS - 2
360 - 1

The rest is for Chris.

[Kenka]

Famitsu Software Sales: Week 49, 2011 (Nov 28 - Dec 04) 27. / 29. [WII] Go Vacation (Bandai Namco) - 7.226 / 109.331 {20/10/11} 29. / 00. [3DS] Nintendogs + cats (Nintendo) - 6.657 / 378.098 {26/02/11} 30. / 00. [WII] Everyone's Rhythm Heaven (Nintendo) - 6.324 / 564.124 {21/07/11}

I am glad these ones hold on well. Rhythm Heaven sales have grown steadily out of the radar.

[Yamauchi]

It's going to be a good month for the 3DS, regardless of the Vita launch. The Wii is getting a nice boost as well.

Skyrim selling almost 110k in Japan is pretty cool, gotta admit.

Zelda :(

I guess that's it.

[Mpl90]

I am glad these ones hold on well. Rhythm Heaven sales have grown steadily out of the radar.

And they'll grow even on radar now that we're officially in Holiday season.

Nintendogs also sold quite a bit out of top 30.

Last time we've seen it in top 30: Week 45 (359.677)
Return in chart: Week 49 6.657 / 378.098
So, in the period of absence from top 30 ( Week 46 - Week 48 ), it sold 11.764

Oh, also Rocket Heroes 3 is back.

[Labadal]

Heh, but he is the 2nd person i see say this, hoping that XIII-2 will fail, so i'm just wondering what the deal is =)

I don't like the direction the FF series is headed, to be honest. XIII was an ok game, with unlikeable characters, no interesting villain, a story that had potential, but in the end didn't deliver and the worst of all was the writing and dialogue. XIII-2 doesn't seem to fix much of that from what I have seen. Enviroments and battles seems good enough, everything else looks abysmally bad.


Selfish? Yes.

[thehypocrite]

I never understood why people want games to fail...I thought we'd be above that in a sales thread. No? Ok, I'll see myself out :(

Breaking News:

World is filled with pathetic individuals that take pleasure in the negative things that occur to others.

[donkey show]

Nice. Looks like Namco will hit their expectations for Gundam Extreme VS of 500,000.

[GDGF]

Breaking News: World is filled with pathetic individuals that take pleasure in the negative things that occur to others.

Schadenfreude all up in this bitch!

[Kenka]

Nice. Looks like Namco will hit their expectations for Gundam Extreme VS of 500,000.

A post about the actual sales of this week, hurrah ! Yeah, I overlooked it but it is nice to see Namco actually reach their own expectations. Didn't end up into another Namco x Capcom-like projection, he he.

[djplaeskool]

What are people even basing this doom and gloom on? People always jump the gun on shit like this.

That's what I was wondering too.
Need to get some boots on the ground and get some words from the street and from retailers.

[Lord_Byron28]

I don't think it's really accurate to class XIII-2 as either mainline (like VII or XII) or a spinoff (like Crisis Core or Revenant Wings) in the traditional sense. It's something else.

It's kind of like MM. Most Zelda games have a new Link unlike MM and MM plays extremely different than other mainline Zelda games.

[Kandinsky]

What are people even basing this doom and gloom on? People always jump the gun on shit like this.

Yeah this, wait for actual reports/numbers people!.