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gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(01-11-2012, 12:00 PM)
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Update 2 : A best shot at the relevant bits, a summary:

Bits probably relevant to PS4

- 'the company is working on a system-on-chip (SoC) to underpin the product for "seven to 10 years".'
- 'He describes the architecture in broad terms: "You are talking about powerful CPU and GPU with extra DSP and programmable logic."' (Alternative quote in another article: ' “We are looking at an architecture where the bulk of processing will still sit on the main board, with CPU and graphics added to by more digital signal processing and some configurable logic.”)
- 'Tsuruta-san picked out emerging ‘through silicon via’ designs. These stack chips with interconnects running vertically through them to reduce length, raise performance and reduce power consumption.'
- 'Tsuruta-san has noted the difficulties in achieving viable yields at 28nm, though he believes that these problems are now moving towards a resolution.'
- Tsuruta: "We are confident that we can now see a way and that we can use some of these advanced methods to create a new kind of system-on-chip. We think that there are the technologies today that can be taken to this project.”
- Tsuruta: "We understand that for this, we will need to offer a very strong SDK. We will retain our own OS for the main games and support that with a development environment that is viable. For online and other features, we are also thinking of a simpler approach to a Linux-type environment than on the PlayStation 3,"
- Seems to be a consciousness to try and accommodate potential future peripherals with high bandwidth needs
- '[Vita] features a nine-axis accelerometer (3 accelerometers, 3 gyroscopes and 3 magnetometers), but we could soon see a tenth added to sense pressure and increase environmental feedback still further.'

Bits probably relevant to post-PS4 (peripherals, PS5+ etc.)


- 'For the future of AR, Tsuruta’s presentation imagined a 3D version using lightweight glasses to create a hybrid gaming environment '
- 'the company wants to up the ante in haptics technology...this vision is one that incorporates sufficient touch sensitivity to, say, reproduce the full tactile sensation of stroking a cat'
- 'controllers that incorporate more motion-sensing accelerometers, and even vital signs sensors. There’s even been talk of systems that read players’ eye movements.'
- 'Sony’s target is to get latency for a typical playing experience to below 50ms for framerates of more than 300fps.'
- 'Moreover, the target is not for 1080p resolution, but reflect a drive towards 8kx4k.'

Unless otherwise explicitly noted, the above quotes are from the article. Direct quotes from Tsuruta are hopefully obvious to pick out.


Update: More relevant comments from him in this post.

I posted a much shorter article about this a while ago that went down like a lead balloon, but with all this talk lately of PS4, and with a couple of far more detailed articles appearing on this in the last week, I think it's worth posting about again :)

The first article is just a summary one of a presentation given by SCE's Chief Tech Officer in December, the second taken from an interview with him.

WARNING: The stuff talked about here is rather explicitly not necessarily a feature list for PS4. He notes that some of this stuff is at least 5 years away from fruition. It's just his current take on where things may be heading longer term. Some of the more out there stuff could be relevant within PS4's lifetime in a peripheral sense, though...

Article: http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2011/dec/sony-gaming.cfm

Interview: http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/201...-interview.cfm



The senior technologist in Sony’s PlayStation division provided a tantalising view of the company’s gaming roadmap at the International Electron Devices Meeting in Washington DC this month.

Not all of the road map will feature in the next PlayStation – this was explicitly not a specification – but it seems certain that some of it will, and other elements could be added later via peripherals. Some, though, are more long-term.

In terms of semiconductors, Tsuruta-san picked out emerging ‘through silicon via’ designs. These stack chips with interconnects running vertically through them to reduce length, raise performance and reduce power consumption.

(Note: it's believed the next Power architecture will be a stacked design. This is also the architecture that has been speculated could incorporate aspects of Cell's design, or a next-gen SPU...). It's due in 2013.

Looking further out, Tsuruta-san imagined a version of AR ultimately delivered via see-through 3D glasses, essentially a lightweight stereoscopic head-up display. This, however, will have to wait on the capability to deliver a massive amount of real-time graphics processing locally on a headset and to accurately position virtual truly-3D figures in a dynamically changing environment.

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking about as soon as they showed that prototype at CES a couple of years ago.

On to the interview...actually part interview, part speculation piece by the author:

Consumer technology giant Sony aims to give its next-generation gaming console an up to 10 year shelf-life, according to the CTO of its Computer Entertainment division, Maasaki Tsuruta, speaking exclusively to E&T. This is significantly longer than the market has seen historically, although the PlayStation 3 will be at least seven-years-old by the time its successor appears.

The target longevity of the ‘PlayStation 4’ (it will not be called that) is a simple question of economics - primarily the inflationary economics of electronics system design, believes Tsuruta.

The company is not really talking about its budget, but analysts Like Silicon Map believe that $1bn for the silicon alone would be a lower-end estimate.

“You have to look at the current solutions and the current technologies and see how long you can extend those for the expected life of the product,” Tsuruta admits. “You always want ‘perfect’ technologies, but there are none. So, you look at what is available, and try to get as close as possible to that goal. Even then, some of the things that we want are still five years away [from development].”

Consoles themselves are now only part of the game; highly sophisticated peripherals can deliver as much of a market advantage as the main platform.

If the next PlayStation has to deliver stellar performance out-of-the-box, it also has to have enough processing headroom to carry on delighting the consumer for long after with new options. That means that Sony is, as Tsuruta’s earlier comment suggests, creating a new product with a view to peripherals that will be added post-launch – in some cases, quite some time after – and being more open today about what they are likely to be.

At December 2011’s International Electron Devices Meeting, Tsuruta delivered a keynote on ‘Interactive Games’ that was as much shopping list as strategic vision. It set out a Sony gameplan that includes games which can respond to a player’s emotions, with controllers that incorporate more motion-sensing accelerometers, and even vital signs sensors. There’s even been talk of systems that read players’ eye movements.

Then the company wants to up the ante in haptics technology. Current controllers may vibrate or give some sense of resistance to the user’s movements, but this vision is one that incorporates sufficient touch sensitivity to, say, reproduce the full tactile sensation of stroking a cat.

For the future of AR, Tsuruta’s presentation imagined a 3D version using lightweight glasses to create a hybrid gaming environment - no mean task. Locating 3D virtual objects within ‘flat’ environments is hard enough, particularly in real-time – only a handful of research projects, including SLAM (Simultaneous Localisation and Mapping) at Imperial College, London’s department of Computing, have even begun to tackle the same challenges for 3D rendered ones.

“For the haptics and the very advanced graphics, we are talking about those five years at least,” Tsuruta says. The fact remains that means Sony’s ambitions and design plans today must already capture the next PlayStation’s peripherals market. That raises several challenges, he acknowledges, not the least of which concern where the digital muscle should go.

These kinds of technology will require more advanced types of sensor technologies such as micro-electromechanical systems (MEMS, a technology branch that includes accelerometers). Not a straightforward design task, but an easier one to locate: they will go in the controller/headset. A bigger question surrounds the traditional ‘heavy-lifting’ processors.

“It took five years before we saw games that used the full power of Cell, so we are used to looking ahead and having capacity,” Tsuruta says. “We are looking at an architecture where the bulk of processing will still sit on the main board, with CPU and graphics added to by more digital signal processing and some configurable logic.”

To give a further, more metric-driven sense of that, Sony’s target is to get latency for a typical playing experience to below 50ms for framerates of more than 300fps. Now, 50ms is an absolute best performance level to start with – most displays actually increase it – for framerates of about 60fps ceiling. Moreover, the target is not for 1080p resolution, but reflect a drive towards 8kx4k.

“We think that the core games will continue to be the most important,” says Tsuruta. “We don’t want to limit what people do on the console and we will have to do more on the server side, account for some aspects of thin client computing. Many people like the ability to play simultaneously, and when the networks are available we would like to open the platform up to more complex content through them… But we will have to wait for a while because current networks have limitations in bandwidth. A typical PlayStation console game is 50GByte – transferring those kinds of size over most of today’s [public IP] networks won’t work. But more important is the experience. The [public IP] networks cannot yet deliver it.”

So while there will be some features that aim to make the cloud-based gaming experience more immersive – “and, this is key, more secure”, Tsuruta adds – the focus remains local.

Given all these factors, if there is a feeling that Sony is ‘late’ in launching a fourth generation PlayStation, these ambitions suggest it is with good reason. Although Tsuruta (obviously) will not disclose the detailed specification, it now seems reasonably obvious that Sony is developing not so much an immersive games console as something that could evolve into a fully-realised virtual reality machine, rather than simply paving the way for one. For sure, there is a lot on that IEDM shopping list that needs to be refined, but most of it already exists in some form, some quite well developed although some is nascent.

Article: http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2011/dec/sony-gaming.cfm

Interview: http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/201...-interview.cfm

I feel like the spirit of Kutaragi is alive and well at SCE :P :D

And this could be the closest you'll get to Sony talking about 'PS4' for a while...
Last edited by gofreak; 01-11-2012 at 03:30 PM.
AceBandage
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(01-11-2012, 12:01 PM)
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They've abandoned 4D already?
Averon
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(01-11-2012, 12:02 PM)
And here people was worried Sony might cut back.
Digishine
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(01-11-2012, 12:03 PM)
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why use 4D ? 3D allready failed. I got even a 3D tv and never use the 3D function..
[Nintex]
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(01-11-2012, 12:03 PM)
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Woowiee fucking nuts, bring it Sony.
Barrett2
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(01-11-2012, 12:04 PM)
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2020 gonna be a hell of a year for PS5.
rvy
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(01-11-2012, 12:08 PM)
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8K, 300fps

Bullshit, you fuckers. PS3 was supposed to be 120fps and 1080p, amirite? Maybe when I have kids.
XANDER CAGE
(01-11-2012, 12:08 PM)
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300fps? Gimme some fighting games on that ish
Callibretto
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(01-11-2012, 12:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by gofreak

http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2011/dec/sony-gaming.cfm



I feel like the spirit of Kutaragi is alive and well at SCE :P :D

And this could be the closest you'll get to Sony talking about 'PS4' for a while...

I feel the same way lol.

anyway, the playstation is well on it's way for the vision of PS9
gkryhewy
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(01-11-2012, 12:09 PM)
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Seems the "throw lots of crap at the wall and hope something sticks" strategy is entrenched in their corporate culture.
REMEMBER CITADEL
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(01-11-2012, 12:09 PM)
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Kutaragi's spirit is alive and kicking! Bring on the PS9.

EDIT: Damn, beaten on both accounts? I give up.
gundamkyoukai
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(01-11-2012, 12:09 PM)
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Happy to see they still got crazy people when it comes to PS stuff.
Still some of the stuff he talks about makes sense but we are years away from it .
PetriP-TNT
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(01-11-2012, 12:12 PM)
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4D 300K 8K cat videos, my body is ready. I doubt that even PS4 will go with 4K route but I guess it's possible considering they are already doing it with PS3 to some extend.
baekshi
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(01-11-2012, 12:13 PM)
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I can wait. My body will be ready to fork another $600.
Globox_82
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(01-11-2012, 12:14 PM)
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I so don't give a shit about 3D.
Gravijah
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(01-11-2012, 12:14 PM)
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you had me at cats.
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(01-11-2012, 12:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Gravijah

you had me at cats.

I wanted to put 'pussy-stroking' there but it wouldn't fit :(
Mr Touchdown
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(01-11-2012, 12:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by BigJiantRobut

300fps? Gimme some fighting games on that ish

1 frame links = mash to get
Jtrizzy
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(01-11-2012, 12:17 PM)
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So PS4 is a lightweight, integrated, 8kx4k HMZ visor where you stroke cats with advanced haptic feed back? Sounds good to me. They should wait for 2014 though, as the built in 4g will be too slow.
GABDEG
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(01-11-2012, 12:17 PM)
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4D or bust.

ItAintEasyBeinCheesy
it's 4th of July in my asshole
(01-11-2012, 12:18 PM)
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Sooooo they are basically going to skip a gen..
Withnail
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(01-11-2012, 12:19 PM)
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ITT: people who don't understand the role of a CTO.

It's a prediction of technology trends, not a feature list for PS4.
gaming_noob
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(01-11-2012, 12:19 PM)
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I like how Sony always aims high with their Tech. That's how it should be IMO - instead of half assed tech with superior marketing.
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(01-11-2012, 12:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jtrizzy

So PS5 is a lightweight, integrated, 8kx4k HMZ visor where you stroke cats with advanced haptic feed back? Sounds good to me.

Fixed.

But if they could bring that in 2015 by waiting on PS4, instead of in 2020, I'd be up for that! Or peripheral-ise that stuff...

Of course, you can be waiting forever for something else cool that's 'just around the corner'. You kind of have to draw a line somewhere.

PS4 will probably target 4K in bullet-point sense, and probably be more on the 'new motion sensors + pressure sensor' end of things. Initially anyway. Maybe later they can add new peripherals that do more advanced things, but they'll be mid-steps to a PS5.
Last edited by gofreak; 01-11-2012 at 12:23 PM.
1-D_FTW
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(01-11-2012, 12:24 PM)
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4X AA
16X AF
60 FPS
1080P 3D

That'll do Sony. How about you try and remotely approach that as a standard next-gen. Okay? Thanks.
KKRT00
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(01-11-2012, 12:25 PM)
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And i thought Razor was crazy.
Last edited by KKRT00; 01-11-2012 at 12:29 PM.
NIGHT-
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(01-11-2012, 12:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by rvy

Bullshit, you fuckers. PS3 was supposed to be 120fps and 1080p, amirite? Maybe when I have kids.

haha! Sony is so crazy. I remember all the bullshit and lies they pouted the beginning of this gen. Can't wait for PS4
TyrantGuardian
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(01-11-2012, 12:30 PM)
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So... we'd better be getting some 300Hz displays to go along with this!
[Nintex]
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(01-11-2012, 12:30 PM)
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Oh I forgot, make this man Sony CEO he seems to have a vision.
Risk Breaker
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(01-11-2012, 12:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by rvy

Bullshit, you fuckers. PS3 was supposed to be 120fps and 1080p, amirite? Maybe when I have kids.

Well there are 120fps and 1080p games on PS3! Only it's either 1080p at 60 or 720p at 120. :P
Gianni Merryman
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(01-11-2012, 12:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Gravijah

you had me at cats.

Same here.

Please someone explain me what 8kx4k is supposed to be, I am not sure if I am catching it correctly.
Now 1080HD is not enough already?!
Jeez, I have not even a full HD set, and there's already talking of a new standard that dwarfes previous one...

It seems to me the TV market's going crazy lately, consumers like me are puzzled by this standard-wars situation; come on, most of people are not willing to upgrade their TV sets every year, neither they have the money to do it right now!

Besides, I am curious about videogame developing costs, should they have their way with this 8kx4k thing, I suppose a lot of software houses wouldn't be too eager.
Last edited by Gianni Merryman; 01-11-2012 at 01:16 PM.
Zaptruder
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(01-11-2012, 12:32 PM)
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This is great. I like it when the CTO of Playstation stuff is talking about the same stuff I've been talking about as well.

That said... 8kx4k @ 300hz seems a little overkilley.

It sounds more like a wishlist for endgame HMD tech... like; at what point would more stop been an issue, ever? I'd say it'd be less then 8kx4k and 300hz personally... but it's a good target to aim for when you're trying to do a few other things at once.

At the rate we're going, we're going to see the PS5 after 2020. Probably closer to 2025... which when you think about it, is crazy far away.

Personally, I think there won't even be a market for the PS5 (or console platforms as we currently concieve them) by then; HMD tech is going to move faster then that... and along with HMD tech will be cloud based gaming like OnLive and advanced latency reduced wireless like DIDO - companies will rent or have their own hardware and players will simply log onto the systems for the duration of the game. The result is the upgrade process becomes transparent to gamers - no longer have to worry about building PCs, buying consoles...

Assuming PS4 is PS end game... I would hope that they'll have kinect style camera controls, split full controller setup (like the newly shown razer thing) and view point head tracking via camera. The idea is to synergize the PS4 with emerging HMD tech in the coming decade. By the end of the generation, gamers will be fully ready to transition into a HMD based gaming future.
Last edited by Zaptruder; 01-11-2012 at 12:44 PM.
Oblivion
Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
(01-11-2012, 12:33 PM)
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Forgive the possibly stupid question, but I've been away from sales age for a good few years now, so I'm curious, has Sorny started making a profit on the PS3, and if so, since when?
V_Ben
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(01-11-2012, 12:34 PM)
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There's the crazy, bleeding edge Sony I know and love. Shooting for the fucking sun.
AngryMoth
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(01-11-2012, 12:37 PM)
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I remember Carmack talking recently about doing tests of 60fps vs 120fps, and how most people couldn't tell the difference so he didn't care about trying to improve frame rates beyond 60. Seems weird therefore that 300fps is one of their targets.
travisbickle
(01-11-2012, 12:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by AceBandage

They've abandoned 4D already?

Isn't 4D time. With games that have some sort of time dimension to them, maybe online worlds that change with time and/or the actions of other players.
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(01-11-2012, 12:41 PM)
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This article also has quotes.

It is very suspiciously similar to the article in the original post, but has some new direct quotes, so...I dunno.

http://mandetech.com/2012/01/10/sony...uta-interview/

There is also some interesting statements in there, but they seem to be speculation. What direct quotes are there, do seem more immediately relevant (to a PS4).

Masaaki Tsuruta, CTO of Sony Computer Entertainment, says that the company is working on a system-on-chip (SoC) to underpin the product for "seven to 10 years".

The PlayStation 3 will be at least seven years old by the time its successor arrives, but is generally considered to have lasted longer than was originally expected. A firm launch for the fourth generation console - not to be called PlayStation 4 - was pushed out again late last year.

Its designed-in longevity is largely a matter of economics. The Cell Broadband Engine that powered the PS3 cost $400m to develop; the main SoC for the incoming console is likely to be a 3D stack incorporating thru-silicon-via technology and could be the first $1bn hardware design project.

“We have to look at two things,” Tsuruta-san says, “return-on-investment (ROI) and turnaround time (TAT).”

The 1bn figure is purely analyst speculation...

The agenda he set out at IEDM was very much a call to arms for the silicon design community.

"Our strengths have always been in the integration," Tsuruta-san says. "We will have to work with a lot of third-party partners to make these things happen."

The headroom Sony will need to achieve all this - or even part of it, assuming that some things on its wishlist will not reach fruition in time - does help to explain why an announcement on the fourth generation PS is taking so long.

He describes the architecture in broad terms: "You are talking about powerful CPU and GPU with extra DSP and programmable logic."

This, and Sony's target of no more than 50ms latency even for 8k x 4k resolution at 300fps, clearly points to the need for a highly integrated TSV-based package - and so far TSV has stuttered in manufacturing for anything other than the stacking of like-on-like, typically memories.

In addition, Tsuruta-san has noted the difficulties in achieving viable yields at 28nm, though he believes that these problems are now moving towards a resolution.

"We are confident that we can now see a way and that we can use some of these advanced methods to create a new kind of system-on-chip. We think that there are the technologies today that can be taken to this project.”

Then there is the challenge of software. "We understand that for this, we will need to offer a very strong SDK. We will retain our own OS for the main games and support that with a development environment that is viable. For online and other features, we are also thinking of a simpler approach to a Linux-type environment than on the PlayStation 3," he says.

Last edited by gofreak; 01-11-2012 at 12:48 PM.
Lord Ghirahim
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(01-11-2012, 12:41 PM)
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Sounds like a PS6(7?) feature list.
V_Ben
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(01-11-2012, 12:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by travisbickle

Isn't 4D time. With games that have some sort of time dimension to them, maybe online worlds that change with time and/or the actions of other players.

I remember 4D demos with real time ageing of surfaces. A bathroom going from spotless to decrepit. That sort of stuff.
Jtrizzy
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(01-11-2012, 12:42 PM)
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The roadmap should be a console that can do 1080p60 in 3d. Then do the lightweight hmz with haptic power glove for cat petting as peripherals. Haptic power glove with small touch screen and buttons will be great AR style with a game like ME or Dead Space using the menus.
Yagharek
Member
(01-11-2012, 12:43 PM)

Originally Posted by rvy

Bullshit, you fuckers. PS3 was supposed to be 120fps and 1080p, amirite? Maybe when I have kids.

So going by that, if we divide framerate by 4 and resolution by half, and we have a reasonable PS4 performance estimate.
BY2K
Membero Americo
(01-11-2012, 12:43 PM)
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300fps? BULL-SHIT! Start be giving stable 30fps and then we'll talk. (About 60 fps.)
CadetMahoney
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(01-11-2012, 12:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by RandomVince

If we divide framerate by 4 and resolution by half, and we have a reasonable PS4 performance estimate.

lol
[Nintex]
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(01-11-2012, 12:46 PM)
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"We are confident that we can now see a way and that we can use some of these advanced methods to create a new kind of system-on-chip. We think that there are the technologies today that can be taken to this project.”

Global Foundries and IBM made a huge deal for 32nm production for chips like these to be shipped in the latter half of 2012.
FreeMufasa
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(01-11-2012, 12:48 PM)
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I can't remember but did a reputable person from Sony actually say the PS3 will do 4d?
[Nintex]
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(01-11-2012, 12:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by FreeMufasa

I can't remember but did a reputable person from Sony actually say the PS3 will do 4d?

Ken Kutaragi
Auto_aim1
MeisaMcCaffrey
(01-11-2012, 12:49 PM)
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It set out a Sony gameplan that includes games which can respond to a player’s emotions, with controllers that incorporate more motion-sensing accelerometers, and even vital signs sensors.

They did acquire a biometric controller patent recently. So it looks like this is where they're heading in the future.
V_Ben
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(01-11-2012, 12:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Meisadragon

They did acquire a biometric controller patent recently. So it looks like this is where they're heading in the future.

I'm expecting sensors and advanced rumble in the next console's controller.
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(01-11-2012, 12:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by FreeMufasa

I can't remember but did a reputable person from Sony actually say the PS3 will do 4d?

IIRC, before E3 05, Kutaragi did a presentation where he talked about realtime data off the network as being a next step for games - that it would introduce time, 'the 4th dimension' to gaming. E.g. in a racing game, getting up-to-the-minute race results in-game, realtime weather data from the network feeding into track conditions etc. That's all he meant, but the Krazy Ken meme jumped on it :P
Tobor
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A crack addict with a tag!
(01-11-2012, 12:53 PM)
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This is all assuming Sony is still around in 2020.

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