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bgassassin
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(01-18-2012, 02:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by StreetsAhead

Sorry, that was worded terribly. I meant is part of what you know information about what within the dev kits is changing/has changed? I would say that you analysis is accurate in regards to release time-frames if we're going by the Wii's cycle, though.

I don't know how much clearer that was. :P

I've gotten indications that this is a "real" change and not tweaks like lherre mentioned for the other kits. If you are asking about specifics, I've gotten nothing in that regard.
ugoo18
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(01-18-2012, 02:58 AM)
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Clicky stick running is one of the reasons i dislike BF3/MW3 so much. There are other reasons as well but that one in particular is annoying.

EDIT: Can't fully remember if BF3 had it (Im pretty sure it did)
TheCongressman1
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(01-18-2012, 02:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by Jtrizzy

What is the latest speculation from GAF's detectives?

It was Colonel Mustard in the bathroom with a crowbar.
-Pyromaniac-
(01-18-2012, 02:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by guek

See, this is the shit i'm talking about. Stop acting like this isn't a subjective issue. You have your preference, other people have theirs. Ultimately though, there are other possible options that, in the long run, would be just as functional, even if it's not your preferred control scheme.

bro, he brought up a completely different genre, worst comparison possible, and you know it, read the posts before complaining.

Originally Posted by TheCongressman1

Do you know why there are options? Because people prefer lots of different styles. In other words, your favorite configuration is only an opinion. If not, most likely the developers would feel it should be the only option.

I'm saying default configurations are important. I couldn't give a fuck less if some people think pointers are better for shooters, more power to them, same with those who prefer other buttons. But majority rules, most will use the default, it's the default for a reason, because it's the best balance of controls.

I'm not arguing that options are bad, I'm arguing FORCING other options upon people that whole used to a standard is a bad thing. By taking away the clicking you are forcing people to use an option they don't want to use, whereas if you include the clicking, you trigger runners can run with triggers and be happy, the majority will be happy using the clicking, those who like to run with face buttons will be happy because they can do that.

I'm ALLLLL for options. Just not for taking one away from people. Is it really that hard to understand, yeesh, lol.
AceBandage
Banned
(01-18-2012, 02:59 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheCongressman1

It was Colonel Mustard in the bathroom with a crowbar.

It's never the rope...
TheLastCandle
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(01-18-2012, 02:59 AM)
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I never liked click to run either in shooters. Feels weird, man.
TheCongressman1
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(01-18-2012, 03:00 AM)
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Originally Posted by AceBandage

It's never the rope...

He's coming for you next...

Deguello
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(01-18-2012, 03:01 AM)
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There's really no reason that stick click functions can't be mapped to any of the 12 available buttons + hot buttons on the touchscreen.

In fact, this would allow greater functions beyond the normal setup as you could possibly put at least 4 more screen buttons to the mix (divided into 4 equal portions of touchscreen). Or if you need more, you can always make more screen buttons, as long as they don't get too small.
TheCongressman1
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(01-18-2012, 03:02 AM)
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Originally Posted by -Pyromaniac-

I'm ALLLLL for options. Just not for taking one away from people.

That I can agree with. Options are king. It is a shame that the Wii U is already lacking in that department. Not saying the games will absolutely suffer from not having the clickys, but it certainly won't help. In my case, I doubt it will matter.
-Pyromaniac-
(01-18-2012, 03:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by Deguello

There's really no reason that stick click functions can't be mapped to any of the 12 available buttons + hot buttons on the touchscreen.

In fact, this would allow greater functions beyond the normal setup as you could possibly put at least 4 more screen buttons to the mix (divided into 4 equal [portions of touchscreen). Or if you need more, you can always make more screen buttons, as long as they don't get too small.

and there's really no reason not to include basic functionality, if I see real evidence as to why having them click is being excluded for good reason, I will concede. But not including them because nintendo is being nintendo is annoying. The triggers are another story btw, but I doubt they are dense enough to keep those the same as well.

If all goes well they'll make them clickable, they'll include REAL triggers, all will be happy and all will map how they see fit.
guek
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(01-18-2012, 03:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by -Pyromaniac-

bro, he brought up a completely different genre, worst comparison possible, and you know it, read the posts before complaining.

Originally Posted by Anth0ny

I'm fine with click for other functions. But not running/aiming.

Yes, because you use clicky sticks in platformers and not to zoom in shooters.

The reality is people will adapt as long as it's just as functional. The lack of clicky sticks don't make shooters unplayable, except for you apparently.
-Pyromaniac-
(01-18-2012, 03:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by guek

Yes, because you use clicky sticks in platformers and not to zoom in shooters.

The reality is people will adapt as long as it's just as functional. The lack of clicky sticks don't make shooters unplayable, except for you apparently.

I personally wouldn't give people that much credit. And I wouldn't buy a single shooter if I couldn't run that way because I find every other way worse. I'd just buy them for PS4 or something. All I'm saying is nintendo is only hurting by excluding things. Having the attitude of "oh they'll adapt" is wrong. Nintendo is not Apple, they haven't reached the level of forcing people into whatever they think is best yet.
StreetsAhead
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(01-18-2012, 03:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by bgassassin

I don't know how much clearer that was. :P

I've gotten indications that this is a "real" change and not tweaks like lherre mentioned for the other kits. If you are asking about specifics, I've gotten nothing in that regard.

Sorry, having trouble forming coherent English sentences today. Too much switching languages and general tiredness. You managed to figure it out - that's what I meant.
Caramello
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(01-18-2012, 03:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by bgassassin

Most likely. Ubisoft probably only focused on getting the motion controlling down so it could be demoed at E3.




Not quite understanding, but if I do understand it then yes. My predicted release is a continuance of a hypothesis I made back in October.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...postcount=9462



3DS had eight or nine months to wait for some heavy hitters to come out. Considering ports and length of development on newer titles, I think they could get away with a launch much sooner than November and at the same time have a smaller window between launch and holidays to deal with. I'm still going with July till I hear something solid enough to make me change my mind.

Originally Posted by bgassassin

I don't know how much clearer that was. :P

I've gotten indications that this is a "real" change and not tweaks like lherre mentioned for the other kits. If you are asking about specifics, I've gotten nothing in that regard.

From this I gather you're thinking that they have actual release hardware instead of "target" hardware which would indicate that this dev kit is final or very nearly final.


Based on the link, you either believe that this 6th dev kit is the final as Wii had 5 or you know it's the final one and so you think the system is 6 months away from release?
Last edited by Caramello; 01-18-2012 at 03:14 AM.
Anth0ny
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(01-18-2012, 03:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by -Pyromaniac-

bro, he brought up a completely different genre, worst comparison possible, and you know it, read the posts before complaining.


I'm saying default configurations are important. I couldn't give a fuck less if some people think pointers are better for shooters, more power to them, same with those who prefer other buttons. But majority rules, most will use the default, it's the default for a reason, because it's the best balance of controls.

I'm not arguing that options are bad, I'm arguing FORCING other options upon people that whole used to a standard is a bad thing. By taking away the clicking you are forcing people to use an option they don't want to use, whereas if you include the clicking, you trigger runners can run with triggers and be happy, the majority will be happy using the clicking, those who like to run with face buttons will be happy because they can do that.

I'm ALLLLL for options. Just not for taking one away from people. Is it really that hard to understand, yeesh, lol.

I was just trolling with the mario reference lol


But I do think they need to add click to both analog sticks (that is, if they replace the circle pads). In the end, there are too many genres that require every last button on the controller.

And touch screen buttons as compensation for no clicks would really suck. I mean, I could see it working in COD, replacing up on the dpad to call the AC 130 or something... but with something like Dark Souls? No chance.

I'd laugh if they stick with the circle pads, and end up releasing a new controller due to third party pressure, like frankenstick with the 3DS.
-Pyromaniac-
(01-18-2012, 03:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by Anth0ny

I'd laugh if they stick with the circle pads, and end up releasing a new controller due to third party pressure, like frankenstick with the 3DS.

exactly, they skimped and had to deal with it in some way with 3ds and who knows what they will do with the revision that will eventually come up. So why not just not skimp for the wii-u, lol. See no reason why not.
TheCongressman1
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(01-18-2012, 03:14 AM)
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Originally Posted by Anth0ny

And touch screen buttons as compensation for no clicks would really suck. I mean, I could see it working in COD, replacing up on the dpad to call the AC 130 or something... but with something like Dark Souls? No chance.

That would about the most clunky thing I can think of. Not all games will need the click, but it might as well be there for the ones that do.
rpmurphy
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(01-18-2012, 03:16 AM)
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Oh boy, dual analog arguments! I can't really see myself using the pad for FPS anyway. I don't want to go back to dual analog and give up independent aiming since that is one of the four tenets of FPS controls -- move, aimlook, shoot and action. I can see the argument for clickable stick run though for dual analog, as it would be useful for FPS's that allow you to shoot while running, i.e. NOT Call of Duty (of course, remote+nunchuck has no problems doing that without a clickable stick hohoho).
guek
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(01-18-2012, 03:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by -Pyromaniac-

I personally wouldn't give people that much credit. And I wouldn't buy a single shooter if I couldn't run that way because I find every other way worse. I'd just buy them for PS4 or something. All I'm saying is nintendo is only hurting by excluding things. Having the attitude of "oh they'll adapt" is wrong. Nintendo is not Apple, they haven't reached the level of forcing people into whatever they think is best yet.

In an ideal world, yes, all possible control schemes would be available. And while I personally don't like clicky sticks at all, I wouldn't be opposed to their inclusions since there's no real reason not to have them unless for some reason it's just not possible with circle pads (which I'm guessing are being used to reduce cramping/allow easy access to the screen/aesthetics).

All in all, I don't think nintendo has to cater their controllers around a specific control scheme within a specific genre as long as that genre is perfectly playable otherwise. For you, shooters are ruined without the ability to click to run, but I don't think there's any evidence showing people simply cannot adapt to other functional control schemes. The only thing you've got going for your argument is that it just so happens to be how it's used by the majority. But just because it's used by the majority doesn't mean the majority can't adapt. With that point aside, people who prefer KBM might as well get all up in arms that their "clearly superior control scheme" isn't included in every console.
Deguello
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(01-18-2012, 03:22 AM)
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Considering they had to adapt to clicking sticks in the first place, I don't see how it can be such a deal breaker for the majority.

Really, lack of pointer controls would be a deal breaker for me, because I can prove it's more accurate than the archaic dual analog method.
bgassassin
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(01-18-2012, 03:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by Caramello

From this I gather you're thinking that they have actual release hardware instead of "target" hardware which would indicate that this dev kit is final or very nearly final.

Yes. If there is an actual change in hardware at this point, then I believe it's actual release hardware. I lean more towards near final as they most likely would need to see how stable the final components will run together.


Originally Posted by Caramello

Based on the link, you either believe that this 6th dev kit is the final as Wii had 5 or you know it's the final one and so you think the system is 6 months away from release?

Based on the hypothesis in the link I felt that with the controller they may allow for one or two more versions beyond the five that Wii had. If anything #6 is most likely near final and a #7 would be the final, again based on Nintendo's announced release time frame. But if we don't see a #7 then #6 is obviously the final.

The sixth months window is slightly adjusted from Wii. According to that IGN article the final Wii kits went out in June and the console released in November so that's about five months depending on when in June they went out.

Also looking back at Wii releases, I wonder if Nintendo will start with North America again.
Hero of Legend
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(01-18-2012, 03:35 AM)
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Originally Posted by bgassassin

Yes. If there is an actual change in hardware at this point, then I believe it's actual release hardware. I lean more towards near final as they most likely would need to see how stable the final components will run together.




Based on the hypothesis in the link I felt that with the controller they may allow for one or two more versions beyond the five that Wii had. If anything #6 is most likely near final and a #7 would be the final, again based on Nintendo's announced release time frame. But if we don't see a #7 then #6 is obviously the final.

The sixth months window is slightly adjusted from Wii. According to that IGN article the final Wii kits went out in June and the console released in November so that's about five months depending on when in June they went out.

Also looking back at Wii releases, I wonder if Nintendo will start with North America again.

Can you say if the newest dev kit is much improved over the E3 ones? We only have the Bird Demo, Ghost Recon Onlne Arcade, and Killer Freaks to judge on the kits around that time.

Tekken, Lego, and Zelda can also be indications, but the first two are not garrunteed to be Wii U shots (but most likely, we just didn't see it running on screens to confirm it as such), and Zelda was by the big N themselves so maybe they did some major voodoo or had special versions of kits that were a ballpark to the final hardware? Who knows.
Emitan
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(01-18-2012, 03:43 AM)
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If we're talking about control schemes Bumper Jumper >>>>> everything else in Halo 3.

Go back to your arguing.

It should have clicking sticks and analog triggers
Spawnling
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(01-18-2012, 03:44 AM)
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Might buy one... depends on how this thread goes :P
Emitan
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(01-18-2012, 03:46 AM)
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I'm just hoping the Wii U is powerful enough to be the PS2 of next gen. I don't want to buy all 3 consoles again. If all I buy are Nintendo, Platinum, and From Software games on it and everything else is PC, that's fine!
Vinci
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(01-18-2012, 03:48 AM)
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They're not replacing the slide pads with analogue sticks without making some pretty huge changes to the controller's overall design. If you actually tried simulating what it would be like to put analogues on that thing and use it? Honestly it would be uncomfortable as hell, which is probably why Nintendo didn't use them.
Fourth Storm
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(01-18-2012, 03:48 AM)
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Well, if they are now supporting two tablets, which I think can be assumed, I'd guess the RAM and GPU speed might have gotten a minor bump from previous dev kits.
bgassassin
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(01-18-2012, 03:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by Hero of Legend

Can you say if the newest dev kit is much improved over the E3 ones?

Nah. Like I mentioned I wasn't given that kind of info. But if this is actual final silicon then I'd have to believe it's much improved unless Nintendo skimped on some things from what we believed before.
AceBandage
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(01-18-2012, 03:53 AM)
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I do enjoy silicon.
bgassassin
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(01-18-2012, 03:56 AM)
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Originally Posted by AceBandage

I do enjoy silicon.

You're thinking of silicone with an e at the end.
guek
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(01-18-2012, 03:57 AM)
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Part of me wants nintendo to make a massive loss on the hardware in order to give us a beast of a system. But another part of me cringes at the thought because I find that business model to be abhorrent. Harrumph.
StreetsAhead
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(01-18-2012, 03:58 AM)
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Originally Posted by guek

Part of me wants nintendo to make a massive loss on the hardware in order to give us a beast of a system. But another part of me cringes at the thought because I find that business model to be abhorrent. Harrumph.

They'd probably use the extra money to include more slide pads just to piss off the anti-pad people more.
The Xtortionist
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(01-18-2012, 04:01 AM)
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The face buttons look so awkward to get to. I'm hoping for a different final layout. (right stick on bottom kthnx)
AceBandage
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(01-18-2012, 04:04 AM)
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Originally Posted by StreetsAhead

They'd probably use the extra money to include more slide pads just to piss off the anti-pad people more.

Twelve slide pads.
No buttons.
Anth0ny
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(01-18-2012, 04:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by guek

Part of me wants nintendo to make a massive loss on the hardware in order to give us a beast of a system. But another part of me cringes at the thought because I find that business model to be abhorrent. Harrumph.

That would be awesome.

But Nintendo doesn't, and never has, lost money on consoles sold. The fact that they made money on every Gamecube sold, considering how powerful it was for its time, still blows me away.

A console on par with Sony and Microsoft's next offering would be awesome, but considering how successful the Wii was, I guess they figure there's no reason to make it a technical beast, and price it high.

I am hoping it's at least the PS2 of next gen, and not... the Wii of next gen.
guek
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(01-18-2012, 04:05 AM)
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Originally Posted by The Xtortionist

The face buttons look so awkward to get to. I'm hoping for a different final layout. (right stick on bottom kthnx)

Unfortunately, I think it's going to stay that way for perfect symmetry for left-handed people. Those sinister bastards.
The Xtortionist
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(01-18-2012, 04:06 AM)
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Originally Posted by guek

Unfortunately, I think it's going to stay that way for perfect symmetry for left-handed people. Those sinister bastards.

Then at least make it the dualshock layout.
Deguello
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(01-18-2012, 04:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by guek

Part of me wants nintendo to make a massive loss on the hardware in order to give us a beast of a system. But another part of me cringes at the thought because I find that business model to be abhorrent. Harrumph.

I remember back in 2006 that people thought Sony's "liked" their fans more because they were willing to lose an atrocious amount of money per unit on the PS3. It was hard to convince that such an attitude from both parties is actually pretty destructive in the long run.
Last edited by Deguello; 01-18-2012 at 04:13 AM.
StreetsAhead
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(01-18-2012, 04:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by AceBandage

Twelve slide pads.
No buttons.

Get out of my head.

Originally Posted by Anth0ny

But Nintendo doesn't, and never has, lost money on consoles sold. The fact that they made money on every Gamecube sold, considering how powerful it was for its time, still blows me away.

IIRC, both Gamecube and 3DS lost money per unit after pricecuts.

Originally Posted by guek

Unfortunately, I think it's going to stay that way for perfect symmetry for left-handed people.

Yes, please. I'm tired of being at a disadvantage. Also, I think a lower right slide-pad would make the Upad very uncomfortable to reach the triggers and slide-pad at the same time.

Those sinister bastards.

Punny.
AceBandage
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(01-18-2012, 04:09 AM)
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Originally Posted by Anth0ny

That would be awesome.

But Nintendo doesn't, and never has, lost money on consoles sold. The fact that they made money on every Gamecube sold, considering how powerful it was for its time, still blows me away.

A console on par with Sony and Microsoft's next offering would be awesome, but considering how successful the Wii was, I guess they figure there's no reason to make it a technical beast, and price it high.

I am hoping it's at least the PS2 of next gen, and not... the Wii of next gen.

Well, they're losing a bit on the 3DS.
bgassassin
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(01-18-2012, 04:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Anth0ny

That would be awesome.

But Nintendo doesn't, and never has, lost money on consoles sold. The fact that they made money on every Gamecube sold, considering how powerful it was for its time, still blows me away.

A console on par with Sony and Microsoft's next offering would be awesome, but considering how successful the Wii was, I guess they figure there's no reason to make it a technical beast, and price it high.

I am hoping it's at least the PS2 of next gen, and not... the Wii of next gen.

They sold GCs at a loss when they dropped them to $99.
Shin Johnpv
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(01-18-2012, 04:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by -Pyromaniac-

yeah it's great until you realize that it's a needed functionality in shooters :|

And if Nintendo is seriously aiming for any semblance of a core market, that's your most important genre. It's the most natural/easy control set up for running in those games. Battlefield, call of duty, you name it. Honestly in all my years of gaming I've never clicked by accident causing an action I didn't want, since so few games use them. It just so happens that the biggest games in the gaming industry happen to use them, and use them well.

Oh god no! I fucking hate that in fps for running, put on a trigger button, not on the fucking sticks.
udivision
(01-18-2012, 04:15 AM)
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Do you think uPad use will be relegated to quirky game modes in Nintendo's established multiplayer franchises? For the likes of SSB4, MK8, and NSMBM, it seems like they'll have a new modes that won't be the default way to play, and the ability to stream the entire game to the upad and play it like the previous entries. Basically, not everyone being able to have a uPad kind of limits how it could be incorporated in some ways.
Anth0ny
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(01-18-2012, 04:17 AM)
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Originally Posted by StreetsAhead

IIRC, both Gamecube and 3DS lost money per unit after pricecuts.

Ah.

I guess my point was, they wouldn't launch a super powerful console at a loss, if they could lighten up on the power and launch in the green. Unlike Sony and Microsoft, who don't give a mother fuck, and leave it up to accessories/overpriced proprietary storage to make them their money.
Fourth Storm
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(01-18-2012, 04:28 AM)
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Originally Posted by udivision

Do you think uPad use will be relegated to quirky game modes in Nintendo's established multiplayer franchises? For the likes of SSB4, MK8, and NSMBM, it seems like they'll have a new modes that won't be the default way to play, and the ability to stream the entire game to the upad and play it like the previous entries. Basically, not everyone being able to have a uPad kind of limits how it could be incorporated in some ways.

Yes, it is somewhat limited but the asymetrical multiplayer has real potential. Hopefully, Nintendo include some fun multiplayer modes in Mario Kart and Smash Bros. I don't think NSMBMii will emphasize the uniqueness of the pad to its full potential (beyond being able to play on in 1 player sans TV, which will def help appeal of the system in the early days), but, if anything, that will only validate the continued life of the Wii Remote. I somewhat agree with this move.
LOCK
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(01-18-2012, 04:28 AM)
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I also feel like this will release in September.

Nintendo will probably house an event before E3 to give out basic information about the system, online, apps, etc. E3 will be about the games. If this doesn't happen then it won't launch in September but probably be a repeat of what happened with the Wii with final information released around TGS.

I also feel like they will have a few games for launch or the 'window' and then have a steady stream of first party titles. I don't think the 3DS proved that launch games were of up-most importance for initial adopters, but rather constant software is important for continued sales of the system. However in my opinion they should have at least one killer title for the "hardcore" and one for the mainstream Christmas shopper come launch time.
TheExplodingHead
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(01-18-2012, 04:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by -Pyromaniac-

I personally wouldn't give people that much credit. And I wouldn't buy a single shooter if I couldn't run that way because I find every other way worse. I'd just buy them for PS4 or something. All I'm saying is nintendo is only hurting by excluding things. Having the attitude of "oh they'll adapt" is wrong. Nintendo is not Apple, they haven't reached the level of forcing people into whatever they think is best yet.

The sad part is that the GC controller had some of the best triggers ever and a great analog stick, it seems they'd want to build on that. But the only people who universally reject that is Nintendo.

And on the Apple thing, Nintendo does want to see themselves as some sort of premium in the gaming industry, an outlier who does things "differently". Ironically this also only serves to hurt and alienate their fanbase, just like Apple. Because it allows Nintendo an out to refuse to acknowledge or provide services/features that are in demand. We've seen it on control options, we've seen it concerning online, we've seen it concerning their policies of dropping price on games, we've seen it on achievements, we've seen it on localization, etc.

Nintendo does want to be the Apple of the games industry, but only because it's expedient fiscally and eliminates any obligation to meet consumer demands. For all the crap Mirco and Sony get for their policies, Nintendo is way worse when it comes to satisfying consumers' demands. If they didn't make great games they'd be tossed aside within a generation.
apana
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(01-18-2012, 04:51 AM)
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Wii Remote+Nunchuk+Tablet would be a good idea if they can afford it.
Lupin the Third
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(01-18-2012, 05:08 AM)
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I cannot for the life of me understand why people are so bent out of shape about the positioning of the analog sliders.

Look, almost every customer in this industry plays FPSes. You're mostly using the two analogs ANYWAY. You don't play CoD or Halo with your thumb placed readily on the face buttons. And if you do, you just have to jump ASAP over to the analog to line up a shot. Now the right analog is in that "comfy" position for resting your thumb on anyway, with both sets of triggers conveniently beneath your index and/or middle fingers. What is the crisis? The primary controls are very conveniently placed for that.

Yes, the D-pad and face buttons are directly beneath your analog pads, but how hard is it, really, to reach them? And if it's a D-pad or Face-button heavy game...just shift your hands down. Sheesh.
The Xtortionist
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(01-18-2012, 05:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Lupin the Wolf

I cannot for the life of me understand why people are so bent out of shape about the positioning of the analog sliders.

It's different for no reason. If they want it to be symmetrical, it should follow the dualshock layout. Clearly there are a ton of people who like it...why be different? Is there upside to the WiiU layout?

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