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Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
(05-02-2012, 04:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by RDreamer

I really hate when he does this. It's not like I just copied my answers from some leftist blog or something. They came from a few of you guys helping, and from me reading the actual government website and interpreting things the way they are.

It's sad, but once people on the right get personally invested in that worldview, they are gone. It's rare that anyone comes back from that. You have to just nod and smile. Or point and laugh if it's not family or friends. Either that, or risk your own sanity trying to reason with them.
The Librarian
Banned
(05-02-2012, 04:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by cartoon_soldier

March Numbers:
Original ADP - 209000
ADP Revised - 201000
Labor Department Number - 120,000
Economist Expectation - 205,000

April Numbers:
ADP - 119,000
Economist Expectation - 170,000

The ADP Report is not the same as the official government figures.

That makes more sense.

I'm still gunning for a revision - upward - of March's figures.
RDreamer
Member
(05-02-2012, 04:57 PM)
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The thing that's interesting is that the willful substitution of realities tends to happen mainly on the right, at least from my experience. That's not to say it can't happen on the left or it doesn't happen, but I see it all the time on the right. I mean I could have just sent and email back what he was saying because it conflicted with my worldview, too, but I didn't. I saw something that conflicted and said "Oh... I wonder if this stuff is true. I guess I'll research." And I see a lot of people on the left that do that. When confronted with an opposing "factoid" they just research it and figure out if that's true or not.

I have to wonder if part of this is because the right has a lot of devout religious people, since a lot of them tend to do the same sort of thing when confronted with a conflicting argument. They default to the people they trust "on their side," rather than looking at things themselves.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
(05-02-2012, 05:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by RDreamer

The thing that's interesting is that the willful substitution of realities tends to happen mainly on the right, at least from my experience. That's not to say it can't happen on the left or it doesn't happen, but I see it all the time on the right. I mean I could have just sent and email back what he was saying because it conflicted with my worldview, too, but I didn't. I saw something that conflicted and said "Oh... I wonder if this stuff is true. I guess I'll research." And I see a lot of people on the left that do that. When confronted with an opposing "factoid" they just research it and figure out if that's true or not.

I have to wonder if part of this is because the right has a lot of devout religious people, since a lot of them tend to do the same sort of thing when confronted with a conflicting argument. They default to the people they trust "on their side," rather than looking at things themselves.

Reality has a liberal bias. But mostly because the conservative perspective has gone off the deep end in the last couple of decades.
Joe Shlabotnik
Member
(05-02-2012, 05:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by Wolfgunblood Garopa

It's sad, but once people on the right get personally invested in that worldview, they are gone. It's rare that anyone comes back from that. You have to just nod and smile. Or point and laugh if it's not family or friends. Either that, or risk your own sanity trying to reason with them.

Cognitive dissonance is a human failing that holds no ideological prejudice, to be fair.

That said, RDreamer, you should ask your dad whether he would have questioned your research if you came back and said the same sources all supported his arguments. And if not, was he ever really interested in a debate in the first place? Point out that there is essentially no scenario where he could be convinced otherwise with this mindset, so why did he even ask you to bother. While he's certainly not going to give you a straight answer, perhaps deep down it will help him recognize the incongruity.

Er, assuming this doesn't get you disowned or something.
GhaleonEB
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(05-02-2012, 05:06 PM)
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NBC will be airing a long interview with Obama and Brian Williams about the Bin Laden raid tonight, it should be online shortly after. They have a long article up about it now, here.

I loved this detail:

Soon, the president and his advisers began crowding into the room where the video was being played, which was never meant to hold as many people as it did that day. Brigadier General Marshall “Brad” Webb was receiving and interpreting information from the mission. Never expecting Obama to come in the room, he was sitting in the chair intended for the president.

“He started to get up and people were starting to go through the protocol and figuring out how to rearrange things,” the president said. “I said, ‘You don’t worry about it. You just focus on what you’re doing. I’m sure we can find a chair and I’ll sit right next to him.’ And that’s how I ended up (on a) folding chair.”

It's a little thing, but I found it interesting. President walks into a room, sees it's full, and grabs a folding chair rather than booting someone out of their seat. The man is cool as a cucumber.
kehs
Banned
(05-02-2012, 05:20 PM)

Originally Posted by GhaleonEB

NBC will be airing a long interview with Obama and Brian Williams about the Bin Laden raid tonight, it should be online shortly after. They have a long article up about it now, here.

I loved this detail:


It's a little thing, but I found it interesting. President walks into a room, sees it's full, and grabs a folding chair rather than booting someone out of their seat. The man is cool as a cucumber.

So not only does he show up late for an important meeting, but he can't even assert himself?

Pfft.
Zero Hero
Member
(05-02-2012, 05:22 PM)
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It must suck seeing the world through the lens of Right or Left.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
(05-02-2012, 05:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by RDreamer

The thing that's interesting is that the willful substitution of realities tends to happen mainly on the right, at least from my experience. That's not to say it can't happen on the left or it doesn't happen, but I see it all the time on the right. I mean I could have just sent and email back what he was saying because it conflicted with my worldview, too, but I didn't. I saw something that conflicted and said "Oh... I wonder if this stuff is true. I guess I'll research." And I see a lot of people on the left that do that. When confronted with an opposing "factoid" they just research it and figure out if that's true or not.

I have to wonder if part of this is because the right has a lot of devout religious people, since a lot of them tend to do the same sort of thing when confronted with a conflicting argument. They default to the people they trust "on their side," rather than looking at things themselves.

For me, this the most fascinating aspect of US Politics. I have yet to figure it all out, or put together a theory that I'm satisfied with after 10+ years of trying.

It's not religion. At least it's not a significant factor.

It's a fairly common cocktail of psychological issues. Misanthropy and narcissism being at the top of the list. Intellectual laziness is another- they may have a very strong opinion about one detail that is emotionally significant to them (maybe it's resentment of 'handouts' for the poor, or the perception that Democrats are weak) and out of a need to feel like they understand everything, they subscribe to the big picture that the propagandists on the right puts together for them. It makes it easy, and the think tanks on the right have mastered the techniques to exploit this. When their ideologues yell and speak with such strength and authority, it gives them confidence that they can stop thinking critically- these guys have it all figured out. It all makes sense!

That just scratches the surface, which is why it is so fascinating.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
(05-02-2012, 05:28 PM)
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People in ignorance wish to stay in ignorance, plain and simple.
Tim-E
Member
(05-02-2012, 05:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by GhaleonEB

NBC will be airing a long interview with Obama and Brian Williams about the Bin Laden raid tonight, it should be online shortly after. They have a long article up about it now, here.

I loved this detail:


It's a little thing, but I found it interesting. President walks into a room, sees it's full, and grabs a folding chair rather than booting someone out of their seat. The man is cool as a cucumber.


They showed a clip of it on the Nightly News last night. First thing I thought was "Man, the Situation Room is cramped as all hell."
RDreamer
Member
(05-02-2012, 05:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by Joe Shlabotnik

Cognitive dissonance is a human failing that holds no ideological prejudice, to be fair.

That said, RDreamer, you should ask your dad whether he would have questioned your research if you came back and said the same sources all supported his arguments. And if not, was he ever really interested in a debate in the first place? Point out that there is essentially no scenario where he could be convinced otherwise with this mindset, so why did he even ask you to bother. While he's certainly not going to give you a straight answer, perhaps deep down it will help him recognize the incongruity.

Er, assuming this doesn't get you disowned or something.

The thing is that he wasn't ever interested in a debate. In his view, he thought my mother's shop was in jeopardy. This isn't and wasn't a debatable thing to him. And so he thought he'd email me (and my sister) about the consequences of our votes and worldview. If I had to put it into an analogy it'd be like if you had a son that was a heavy smoker. Then say your wife is diagnosed with lung cancer from smoking. You'd probably email your son as a warning about his lifestyle and what it did to his mother, hoping he'd not do it any more. You're not expecting a debate on it, because in your view there's nothing to debate. Your wife got cancer, and your son likely will, too.


Originally Posted by Wolfgunblood Garopa

For me, this the most fascinating aspect of US Politics. I have yet to figure it all out, or put together a theory that I'm satisfied with after 10+ years of trying.

It's not religion. At least it's not a significant factor.

It's a fairly common cocktail of psychological issues. Misanthropy and narcissism being at the top of the list. Intellectual laziness is another- they may have a very strong opinion about one detail that is emotionally significant to them (maybe it's resentment of 'handouts' for the poor, or the perception that Democrats are weak) and out of a need to feel like they understand everything, they subscribe to the big picture that the propagandists on the right puts together for them. It makes it easy, and the think tanks on the right have mastered the techniques to exploit this. When their ideologues yell and speak with such strength and authority, it gives them confidence that they can stop thinking critically- these guys have it all figured out. It all makes sense!

That just scratches the surface, which is why it is so fascinating.


I wasn't saying religion was a factor so much as religion is a bit more tangible evidence of the behavior. And people who are prone to such behavior can fall into it easier in other aspects.
Tim-E
Member
(05-02-2012, 05:38 PM)
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Anytime something fairly significant changes, a significant portion of the population is going to act as if the world is ending and that by going down this path we're surely to ruin everything around us. When things change and they don't fall under, they stay quiet about it until something else comes about.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
(05-02-2012, 05:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by AlteredBeast

People in ignorance wish to stay in ignorance, plain and simple.

It's the exact opposite of plain and simple. Turn on Fox News, listen to Glenn Beck. Have a conversation with a conservative about Michelle Obama lol. There is a lot more at work here than willful ignorance.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
(05-02-2012, 05:58 PM)
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Originally Posted by Wolfgunblood Garopa

It's the exact opposite of plain and simple. Turn on Fox News, listen to Glenn Beck. Have a conversation with a conservative about Michelle Obama lol. There is a lot more at work here than willful ignorance.

Eh. People have unsupported beliefs, which is OK. They get their news from Fox News, and that is OK as far as I care to discuss. (The pundits are another story, but the news isn't itself always horrible). What is not OK is that, when presented with factual statements, like "the polar ice caps are melting faster than ever before in recorded history," these people respond with "Global warming or climate change is a hoax."

You can't change that. I believe that, even if Fox News did a 2 hour special watched by millions about the melting caps and the effect that a warming Earth has on every ecosystem, people the next day would wake up and proclaim that Fox News has gone "leftist" instead of taking steps to protect the environment and heal the damage we have done.

There is no documented proof of a link between vaccinations and autism. Studies by prestigious universities and scientists confirm the fact, but there are still millions of people (most of whom, apparently, who are not conservatives) that still believe that not vaccinating their kids is going to somehow help them. In reality, this stupidity is causing illnesses that were nearly irradicated in parts to see resurgences.

You don't have to be a conservative to be ignorant; willful ignorance and cognitive dissonance is a problem not easily solved.
David Incorporated Esq.
Successful Corporate Manager
(05-02-2012, 05:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by RDreamer

Bah, I can't say I'm surprised... I thought my dad would be a bit better than this. I got this response to my email this morning:




I really hate when he does this. It's not like I just copied my answers from some leftist blog or something. They came from a few of you guys helping, and from me reading the actual government website and interpreting things the way they are.

Good luck getting Ron Johnson to answer. Bastard hasn't answered anything I've sent him.

Your Dad's answer is pretty insulting. May as well just tell him that you don't appreciate being spoken to like that and if he isn't willing to discuss these matters in a respectful tone then he should refrain from bringing it up.

Basically a "Hey Dad, don't belittle your children," email.

I'll ask because it can impact your Dad's view of you, how old are you? If you're late teens, early twenties he probably still views you as "Not Adult" and it'll be easier for him to dismiss your opinion in what he thinks is a standard "My crazy kids!" manner.
GhaleonEB
Member
(05-02-2012, 05:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by Tim-E

Anytime something fairly significant changes, a significant portion of the population is going to act as if the world is ending and that by going down this path we're surely to ruin everything around us. When things change and they don't fall under, they stay quiet about it until something else comes about.

Right now I'm thinking back to when Pluto was declared a planetoid, not a planet, and removed from future illustrations of the solar system. We had an uproar, and bills in the House to formally declare Pluto was still a planet, science be damned. Because that's how it was when they were kids, and so it's gotta stay that way.
The Librarian
Banned
(05-02-2012, 06:00 PM)
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Just saw this tweet from Keith Ellison:

Manufacturing grew last month at fastest rate in 10 months; economy is healthier than thought. Orders, production & hiring rose.

Sounds like good news, but he doesn't have a link for the numbers. Have numbers been released but people haven't posted it here yet?

https://twitter.com/#!/keithellison/...77203599802368
GhaleonEB
Member
(05-02-2012, 06:02 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dax01

Just saw this tweet from Keith Ellison:

Sounds like good news, but he doesn't have a link for the numbers. Have numbers been released but people haven't posted it here yet?

https://twitter.com/#!/keithellison/...77203599802368

He's referring to yesterday's release of the April ISM manufacturing PMI, which came in higher than expected and showed an acceleration in hiring.
The Librarian
Banned
(05-02-2012, 06:03 PM)
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Ah, thanks.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
(05-02-2012, 06:06 PM)
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Originally Posted by RDreamer

Bah, I can't say I'm surprised... I thought my dad would be a bit better than this. I got this response to my email this morning:




I really hate when he does this. It's not like I just copied my answers from some leftist blog or something. They came from a few of you guys helping, and from me reading the actual government website and interpreting things the way they are.

Good luck getting Ron Johnson to answer. Bastard hasn't answered anything I've sent him.

If I was your father, I would have said the same thing. Instead of sounding genuinely helpful, you came off cold - even condescending with your talking points -as if you placed your ideaology over your father's worries to win a debate. Sorry, but that's the way it came off to me.
LosDaddie
Banned
(05-02-2012, 06:08 PM)
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I think I met GAborn today. I had a project site meeting, and there was a guy proudly proclaiming he is a gay libertopian, and something about state's rights. I wasn't around when politics was brought up, but I just gave him the most puzzled look when he kept repeating that we was a gay libertopian. Fortunately, the poltical BSing was minimal as we had a meeting to get done.



Originally Posted by RDreamer

Bah, I can't say I'm surprised... I thought my dad would be a bit better than this.

Why? Did you, honestly, expect a different response? I could've written his response out the moment you said he was "extremely" conservative, well except for emailing it to your Rep part.

Also, how old are you? For him to say "in the real world" implies that you're still living in his house.
Arrowgigantic
Member
(05-02-2012, 06:21 PM)
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speculawyer
Banned
(05-02-2012, 06:30 PM)
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I think this a nice analogy of the far-right fiscal conservatism. Lots of big talk about it but reality is much different.

Newt Gingrich ends his White House dream today with his political committee facing a mountain of debts -- owing about $4 million to scores of businesses and campaign workers around the country who fear they will never get paid.

Campaign watchdogs said the size of Gingrich's debt is extraordinary -- and could have been avoided if the candidate and his team had been more disciplined.

"He was reckless in running up these bills, especially in the last month or so of the campaign when it was quite clear that Mitt Romney would be the nominee," said Craig Holman, a government affairs lobbyist for the watchdog group Citizen Union.

http://news.yahoo.com/newt-gingrich-...002208353.html
speculawyer
Banned
(05-02-2012, 06:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by RDreamer

Bah, I can't say I'm surprised... I thought my dad would be a bit better than this. I got this response to my email this morning:


I really hate when he does this. It's not like I just copied my answers from some leftist blog or something. They came from a few of you guys helping, and from me reading the actual government website and interpreting things the way they are.

Good luck getting Ron Johnson to answer. Bastard hasn't answered anything I've sent him.

Out of curiosity, have you tried looking up Ron Johnson's campaign donations (if any).
RDreamer
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(05-02-2012, 06:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bulbo Urethral Baggins

If I was your father, I would have said the same thing. Instead of sounding genuinely helpful, you came off cold - even condescending with your talking points -as if you placed your ideaology over your father's worries to win a debate. Sorry, but that's the way it came off to me.

Aside from the last paragraph there really aren't that many "talking points." I wasn't even going to write that paragraph, but my wife thought I should really let him know that I'm not some die hard Obama fan that worships obamacare. I'd much rather have a different system. Other than that, though, where are the talking points? I was explaining my knowledge of the law and how it conflicted with his apparent knowledge of the law. If there's a flaw there, then he should let me know, because I'd like to know where he got his numbers.

I wasn't trying to come off condescending. I'm not very good with trying to debate him or whatever, but I really did try and make it so that I was merely explaining things as I knew it rather than trying to belittle him or his view. Maybe it did come off cold, and I guess that is my fault.

I know he probably sees it now as me putting ideology above worries, but that's really not the case. When he sent the email I did feel terrible at first. I wouldn't want to do that to them and my mom. It'd probably cause me a lot of pain to vote Obama if that were the case. But I researched it and found out his worries shouldn't be worries, at least not those specific ones.

Originally Posted by Dave Inc.

Your Dad's answer is pretty insulting. May as well just tell him that you don't appreciate being spoken to like that and if he isn't willing to discuss these matters in a respectful tone then he should refrain from bringing it up.

Basically a "Hey Dad, don't belittle your children," email.

I'll ask because it can impact your Dad's view of you, how old are you? If you're late teens, early twenties he probably still views you as "Not Adult" and it'll be easier for him to dismiss your opinion in what he thinks is a standard "My crazy kids!" manner.

I'm 26, and it is odd. He knows I'm smart and has said it countless times how I've done things he could never do (go to college and all that). And he's always impressed when I do get on the phone and explain things to him.

At the same time he does kind of get into the "crazy kids" thing because it is his belief that sooner or later you turn conservative. You start out liberal and then you settle down, have a family and then you "understand" things and are a conservative.

And politics has been a long time passion for him, I suppose. He's been watching and listening to politics for almost every waking moment since I can even remember. That's what he does. It's part of his hobby. His activities at night would be shooting darts (his other favorite hobby) and watching Fox News or whatever. If he was in the garage he'd have talk radio on. If we were driving somewhere? Talk radio. At work when he worked in the factories? Talk radio. Now in his office he had to have his talk radio, and when they blocked the internet on his computer he figured out how to download talk radio podcasts and listen to them at work. He sends in editorials to the newspaper ripping on liberals. He's the loudest guy in the room when a political argument comes up. He's served on the police and fire commission in his town, too. Politics is his thing, so I suppose no matter how informed I feel I am he's been doing it longer, and he may feel he's just got the experience to back it up.

Originally Posted by LosDaddie

Why? Did you, honestly, expect a different response? I could've written his response out the moment you said he was "extremely" conservative, well except for emailing it to your Rep part.

Also, how old are you? For him to say "in the real world" implies that you're still living in his house.

I suppose I didn't expect a much different response. The emailing the rep thing is kind of odd, though. It's like he "knows" I'm wrong, simply because it conflicts with him, but doesn't know why. Bringing it back to religion, it'd be the same as telling a religious person something conflicting in the bible and they're like "Well, I'm going to have to ask our priest."

I'm 26 and I haven't lived with them for a long while. I came back a few times during the summers in college, but I wouldn't really called it living with them. Even that was back when I was 19, so I've had 7 years on my own. Granted, my parents still help us out when we need it, and we're incredibly thankful for that, and have let them know countless times how thankful we are. But still, for the most part I've been living enough in the real world.
speculawyer
Banned
(05-02-2012, 06:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bulbo Urethral Baggins

If I was your father, I would have said the same thing. Instead of sounding genuinely helpful, you came off cold - even condescending with your talking points -as if you placed your ideaology over your father's worries to win a debate. Sorry, but that's the way it came off to me.

Yeah, reassuring his father that the tax on his policy was false and that his wife's beauty shop would not have to be closed down was "cold - even condescending with your talking points".

You are really an asshole at times.
RDreamer
Member
(05-02-2012, 06:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by speculawyer

Out of curiosity, have you tried looking up Ron Johnson's campaign donations (if any).

Just did.

Number 1 was Koch Industries. Number 2 was Oshkosh Corp (manufacturers heavy duty trucks and equipment, mostly for the military). Number 3 was Northwestern Mutual. Number 4 was Fiduciary Management Inc (money management firm). 4 was Baker Tilly, an accounting and advisory firm.

Donators by industry: retired, health professionals, misc manufacturing & distributing, securities & investment, and republican/conservative
gcubed
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(05-02-2012, 06:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Wolfgunblood Garopa

It's sad, but once people on the right get personally invested in that worldview, they are gone. It's rare that anyone comes back from that. You have to just nod and smile. Or point and laugh if it's not family or friends. Either that, or risk your own sanity trying to reason with them.

I point and laugh at family... but you have to have the right family to do that


edit... Ron Johnson seems like he has a monstrous hard on for Obamacare.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
Banned
(05-02-2012, 06:54 PM)
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Originally Posted by RDreamer

Aside from the last paragraph there really aren't that many "talking points." I wasn't even going to write that paragraph, but my wife thought I should really let him know that I'm not some die hard Obama fan that worships obamacare. I'd much rather have a different system. Other than that, though, where are the talking points? I was explaining my knowledge of the law and how it conflicted with his apparent knowledge of the law. If there's a flaw there, then he should let me know, because I'd like to know where he got his numbers.

I wasn't trying to come off condescending. I'm not very good with trying to debate him or whatever, but I really did try and make it so that I was merely explaining things as I knew it rather than trying to belittle him or his view. Maybe it did come off cold, and I guess that is my fault.

I know he probably sees it now as me putting ideology above worries, but that's really not the case. When he sent the email I did feel terrible at first. I wouldn't want to do that to them and my mom. It'd probably cause me a lot of pain to vote Obama if that were the case. But I researched it and found out his worries shouldn't be worries, at least not those specific ones.

I'm 26, and it is odd. He knows I'm smart and has said it countless times how I've done things he could never do (go to college and all that). And he's always impressed when I do get on the phone and explain things to him.

At the same time he does kind of get into the "crazy kids" thing because it is his belief that sooner or later you turn conservative. You start out liberal and then you settle down, have a family and then you "understand" things and are a conservative.

I suppose I didn't expect a much different response. The emailing the rep thing is kind of odd, though. It's like he "knows" I'm wrong, simply because it conflicts with him, but doesn't know why. Bringing it back to religion, it'd be the same as telling a religious person something conflicting in the bible and they're like "Well, I'm going to have to ask our priest."

I was just giving my honest opinion on how I thougt your email came off a little combative. I imagined getting a response like that from my son and how I would feel. The last paragraph was especially off-putting. It's difficult, because he's older and still your father and it's hard to know what to do with advice coming from a "know-it-all" (no offense) younger person who is not a professional in the field. I think you probably overwhelmed him with your response and really.... I wouldn't expect anyone to just take those answers and go with it. It's a troubling time in his life. You may be correct about nearly everything, but he doesn't know that. If it turns out you are, you'll most likely gain a lot more respect in his eyes.
reilo
learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
(05-02-2012, 06:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bulbo Urethral Baggins

I was just giving my honest opinion on how I thougt your email came off a little combative. I imagined getting a response like that from my son and how I would feel. The last paragraph was especially off-putting. It's difficult, because he's older and still your father and it's hard to know what to do with advice coming from a "know-it-all" (no offense) younger person who is not a professional in the field. I think you probably overwhelmed him with your response and really.... I wouldn't expect anyone to just take those answers and go with it. It's a troubling time in his life. You may be correct about nearly everything, but he doesn't know that. If it turns out you are, you'll most likely gain a lot more respect in his eyes.

Eh? His father came with him for advice and telling him how "Obama care was screwing with our livelihood" and his son was reassuring him that it was not going to be the case.

If anyone came off as a dick and cold it was his dad for trusting some random politician than his own flesh and blood.
mckmas8808
Sony is POO
(05-02-2012, 06:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by PhoenixDark

Biden was against it, as was Hillary. At the time it seemed like Obama was using it to position himself as tough on terrorism due to his lack of foreign policy experience, and many people called him out for it.

No Obama wasn't using it to "position" himself as tough. The guy obviously believed it. You and some other talking heads on TV due Obama a disservice when you make the comment that he "talked" tough in 2007 and 2008 just to "look" tough on national security.

The guy believed what he said at the time and is following through on it. If you like it or not, that's the truth.
RDreamer
Member
(05-02-2012, 07:04 PM)
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Originally Posted by gcubed

edit... Ron Johnson seems like he has a monstrous hard on for Obamacare.

See here:
If by hard on you mean Obamacare is the very catalyst for him to run for office. Yeah, he probably loves to hate it, because it got him a job!

U.S. Sen. Ron Johnson (R-Wi.) on Saturday called the passage of "Obamacare" the "catalyst for me to run for office." His remarks came at the Americans for Prosperity Foundation's "Defending the American Dream Summit" in Milwaukee.

"My current mission in life is to paint a picture for the American people of what our health care system, what our freedoms, what our federal budget will look like if we implement this monstrosity," he said of the Affordable Care Act.

"I spent the last year pretty frustrated," he said. "I'm working in Sen. Harry Reid's do-nothing Senate. It hasn't been fun ... We need to inform. We need to educate. We need to persuade. We need to win the argument."

"Our founders knew that government was something to fear, not something to solve our problems," he said.




Originally Posted by Bulbo Urethral Baggins

I was just giving my honest opinion on how I thougt your email came off a little combative. I imagined getting a response like that from my son and how I would feel. The last paragraph was especially off-putting. It's difficult, because he's older and still your father and it's hard to know what to do with advice coming from a "know-it-all" (no offense) younger person who is not a professional in the field. I think you probably overwhelmed him with your response and really.... I wouldn't expect anyone to just take those answers and go with it. It's a troubling time in his life. You may be correct about nearly everything, but he doesn't know that. If it turns out you are, you'll most likely gain a lot more respect in his eyes.

Yeah, I realize it probably did come off as cold or off-putting, but it really is a kind of fine line. I'm not sure how you combat that. I mean as my research showed me he was pretty well wrong in his assumptions, and not just a little bit wrong... a lot wrong. How do you balance showing that someone is wrong and that you care about them and their views without giving credence to his beliefs at all. Really, you run into the same problems a lot of the media has run into. If you call someone on their BS you're a partisan. If you stick in the middle you're just giving credibility to that BS. Sometimes there really isn't a middle between two views. And this instance seems to be in that case.

Now if he were to point out where the numbers came from or what he was talking about with the tax and all that, then fine. If I was proven wrong, then fine, that's great. I've learned more in that case.

Also, you should look at it from my point of view, too. He knows I lean at least a bit liberal (he doesn't really know the full extent). How is it fair that he send me something like that? I mean I try not to think he's trying to guilt trip me into voting one way, but it comes across as that. As much as my rebuttal may be a cold "you're wrong," the initial email came off kind of as a "if you do this you don't care about your mother or our well being," which is equally a little off-putting. Imagine getting that from your father.

I mean he knows I'm not some partisan douchebag bent on trying to prove him wrong or get him out of his worldview. For fuck's sake I bought him a Scott Walker shirt for christmas. When he wanted to listen to his talk radio podcasts I taught him how to put them on his mp3 player. If I only cared about ideologies and not helping my dad out or making him happy would I have done any of those things?
Rocket Scientist
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(05-02-2012, 07:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by Matthew Gallant

What a sad, little human being he must be.
LosDaddie
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(05-02-2012, 07:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by RDreamer

And politics has been a long time passion for him, I suppose. He's been watching and listening to politics for almost every waking moment since I can even remember. That's what he does. It's part of his hobby. His activities at night would be shooting darts (his other favorite hobby) and watching Fox News or whatever. If he was in the garage he'd have talk radio on. If we were driving somewhere? Talk radio. At work when he worked in the factories? Talk radio. Now in his office he had to have his talk radio, and when they blocked the internet on his computer he figured out how to download talk radio podcasts and listen to them at work. He sends in editorials to the newspaper ripping on liberals. He's the loudest guy in the room when a political argument comes up. .

How often is your dad angry?
reilo
learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
(05-02-2012, 07:13 PM)
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Obama's Rating Climbing Most Among Independents
In April, Obama averaged 84% approval among Democrats, 43% among independents, and 12% among Republicans.

Compared with last August, when his monthly approval rating was 41%, his ratings are up among all groups, but more so among independents (eight percentage points) and Democrats (seven points) than Republicans (three points).

The improvement in Obama's approval rating among independents makes his ratings essentially even within that group, as 43% now approve and 45% disapprove of the job he is doing. In August, his approval-disapproval spread among independents was -18 points, with a 35% approval rating and a 53% disapproval rating.



President Obama's job approval rating has slowly but steadily improved since bottoming out last year. It is notable that his ratings are going up, given that recent incumbents who were defeated for re-election, Jimmy Carter and George H.W. Bush, saw their approval ratings generally headed downward in the election year.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/154343/Ob...aspx?ref=image
Sirpopopop
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(05-02-2012, 07:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zero Hero

It must suck seeing the world through the lens of Right or Left.

Originally Posted by AlteredBeast

People in ignorance wish to stay in ignorance, plain and simple.

An excellent response by AB to so-called centrists.

So-called centrists are ignorant about politics. Plain and simple. If you bother educating yourself about politics you can't help but develop an opinion. At that point, you will have chosen a side.
RDreamer
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(05-02-2012, 07:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by LosDaddie

How often is your dad angry?

Well.... : |


About that... He does have quite a temper, especially when it comes to politics. He likes to get a rise out of people, too, and often his anger comes up in that. I think I've mentioned in here about him flipping off Walker recall people (and he recounted this story to me and my wife for some reason, though he did say the recall people were very nice, despite that, lol). I also mentioned the story about him yelling angrily at some guy with a recall Walker sign on his truck with out of state plates.

So, yeah, he gets angry. He doesn't hurt people or anything like that, but he does get very angry at things. Unfortunately I've inherited his anger problems, too. For the most part at this point in my life I've learned to deal with it quite a lot, but it still gets there. When I was young it used to be horrible, but I know how ridiculous it can look sometimes so I rarely go over the line now. That and my wife gets panic attacks if I even raise my voice above talking volume for anything (even yelling at a video game or something), so I really really can't now, lol.
Bulbo Urethral Baggins
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(05-02-2012, 07:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by RDreamer

Also, you should look at it from my point of view, too. He knows I lean at least a bit liberal (he doesn't really know the full extent). How is it fair that he send me something like that? I mean I try not to think he's trying to guilt trip me into voting one way, but it comes across as that. As much as my rebuttal may be a cold "you're wrong," the initial email came off kind of as a "if you do this you don't care about your mother or our well being," which is equally a little off-putting. Imagine getting that from your father.

I hear you. I would probably just blow it off if I got an email like that. You actually took the time to explain things. I guess I would have just something like "stop bitching and go find someone who actually knows what they are talking about rather than self-serving politicians."
PhoenixDark
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(05-02-2012, 07:24 PM)
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Sounds like friday's jobs report will be bad, although the revised March numbers should be good. It should be a welcome change of topic for Romney, who has been getting pummeled by this Bin Laden/Afghanistan/Pakistan stuff
Wolfgunblood Garopa
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(05-02-2012, 07:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Joe Shlabotnik

Cognitive dissonance is a human failing that holds no ideological prejudice, to be fair.

Ugh... false equivalence.
RDreamer
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(05-02-2012, 07:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bulbo Urethral Baggins

I hear you. I would probably just blow it off if I got an email like that. You actually took the time to explain things. I guess I would have just something like "stop bitching and go find someone who actually knows what they are talking about rather than self-serving politicians."

I probably would have blown it off, actually. I guess my concern was more for my sister. I wasn't going to fall for that stuff so easily, but she really doesn't have the freaking time to look this stuff up or know about it much at all. She goes to school full time, and works at 2 jobs. She's barely ever home. And she's also incredibly perceptive to guilt, and even moreso because she (obviously) loves my mom quite a bit.

So, I researched things and sent her a copy of the email, too, though with a little paragraph explaining things. I told her I too was worried when I read it, but that I spent the day researching. I told her she definitely doesn't have to agree with me about it, but I thought she should know what the other side says about things, too.
gcubed
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(05-02-2012, 07:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by PhoenixDark

Sounds like friday's jobs report will be bad, although the revised March numbers should be good. It should be a welcome change of topic for Romney, who has been getting pummeled by this Bin Laden/Afghanistan/Pakistan stuff

He'll screw it up somehow
eBay Huckster
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(05-02-2012, 07:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by gcubed

He'll screw it up somehow

Well, that much is guaranteed at this point
RDreamer
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(05-02-2012, 07:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cyan

That's not a false equivalence, it's absolutely right. If you think you're immune to cognitive biases just because you're on one side of the political spectrum... well, you're falling prey to a cognitive bias.

Yeah, it definitely exists on both sides. I personally think the right utilizes and preys on it a bit more, but it's still there on the left.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
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(05-02-2012, 07:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Cyan

That's not a false equivalence, it's absolutely right. If you think you're immune to cognitive biases just because you're on one side of the political spectrum... well, you're falling prey to a cognitive bias.

Absolutely wrong. Couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Ever hear the phrase, 'reality has a liberal bias'?

There is no merit to being fair for the sake of being fair. There are times when one side has more of a particular problem than the other, and in this case it is common knowledge.
David Incorporated Esq.
Successful Corporate Manager
(05-02-2012, 07:44 PM)
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Originally Posted by Matthew Gallant

Ladies and Gentlemen, two time Pullitzer-prize winner Michael Ramirez!

Here's a great dig on him from cartoonist Matt Bors to get that awful taste out of your mouth.
RDreamer
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(05-02-2012, 07:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by Wolfgunblood Garopa

Absolutely wrong. Couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Ever hear the phrase, 'reality has a liberal bias'?

There is no merit to being fair for the sake of being fair. There are times when one side has more of a particular problem than the other, and in this case it is common knowledge.

Just because someone says something that is indeed factually true doesn't mean everyone that goes along with it does so because it is factually true. They may go along with it for other reasons, including bias.

That's why I said I think the bias is preyed on by the right, but it exists on the left. There are those that just accept things because their side said it, on both sides.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
(05-02-2012, 07:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by Wolfgunblood Garopa

Absolutely wrong. Couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Ever hear the phrase, 'reality has a liberal bias'?

There is no merit to being fair for the sake of being fair. There are times when one side has more of a particular problem than the other, and in this case it is common knowledge.

more of? Sounds like you are acknowledging that both sides do play that card.

And yes, don't get all worked up, we know that Republicans and the right-wing media does play on those fears and misinformation more than the left, but don't pretend it doesn't happen on the other side, too.
Aaron Strife
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(05-02-2012, 07:50 PM)
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WI recall poll

Barrett 47
Walker 46

Not much, but it's a lead. This thing is up in the air until election day.

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