[Darknessbear]

Cool, I'll give it a listen soon

[BigNastyCurve]

I often hear shit like "Well, a used car has wear and tear and doesn't have X service or Y feature..." as if a used copy of a video game somehow has no wear and tear? Sometimes is missing its case? My used DVDs sometimes have little scratches on the surface. Or the box is dirty and scuffed. But apparently this isn't true in the magic world of video games, who defy the laws of entropy.

Well that and the price of a used car reflects the wear and tear on the auto. I agree with you it's a shit analogy to try and defend the lockdown of used games.

[quest]

I think digital distribution should make everyone happy*. Pubs/Devs don't need to worry about used game sales, and customers don't mind because the price is lower**. *except Gamestop **assuming the prices actually are lower.

Great in theory but none of the console makers have shown they are ready to do DD right. Sony had a chance to do it right with the Vita and failed again. Developers can take way from the used market right now. Put games up on PSN or XBL at a significant discount day 1 and match price drops of retail over time. Instead games are cheaper at retail than DD. It is so frustrating I would love to go DD but it makes not sense right now from my wallets stand point.

[BigNastyCurve]

First off, all the makers of those products wish their was no second hand market. You think the auto industry wouldn't love to have the used car market destroyed? It's impossible though, and a used car is nothing like a used game. The game on the disk, assuming it's not scratched, doesn't degrade.. it's the same thing for both the new and used buyer. The music business hates used sales as well, but it's not a huge problem anymore.. also even back in the day (early to mid 90's) when I bought a shitload of CD's I never bought newer releases used, because they just didn't exist. I bought old releases used, because it was the only way to buy them. People just didn't trade in music the way they do games.

Please cite a reference for the auto industry assertion. You are deluding yourself if you think the auto industry does not recognize the value of a second hand market.

[Ninja Scooter]

The reason it comes up more often with games is because of places like Gamestop. There doesn't exist a market for used items like there does with games and Gamestop. If the extent of used video games was craigslist and ebay I doubt publishers would give a shit, but they see Gamestop raking in billions and are naturally going to try and get a cut of that anyway they can. They aren't trying to tell you what you can and can't do with your used games. They aren't trying to lobby politicians to pass bills banning used game sales. They are introducing things like Online Passes, and DLC and pre-order bonuses to try and get a cut of Gamestop's action and audience. Most every other non-gaming company in that position would probably try and do the same thing, don't kid yourselves.

[Himself]

That was a great listen thanks to Sterling being a great host and Jaffe's typically admirable frankness.

My biggest question regarding the games industry right now, and I wish there was a clear, straightforward answer is: what exactly is the best way to support developers? Is buying in the first week the only way you can possibly support a developer you like? If you buy a game 6 months or a year later, does it benefit the developer in any way?

[NervousXtian]

Only in the videogame industry do you see companies fighting tooth and nail to deny consumers ownership of the things they buy. Worse yet, they honestly seem to believe they're entitled to a cut of any secondhand transactions - that somehow, videogames are more deserving than any other product that gets bought and sold secondhand, be it cars, books, clothes, or whatever. As much as I love games, they're not inherently special in that regard.

Those people are in no position to do anything about it, well.. except books, e-books have gone that route to a sense, but the others be it cars, clothes, electronics, etc have no means of stopping second hand sales. Video game devs and publishers DO have a way to control their product, and ultimately they will.

The model is there already with PC's, and it will be there one day with consoles.

[Tellaerin]

Those people are in no position to do anything about it, well.. except books, e-books have gone that route to a sense, but the others be it cars, clothes, electronics, etc have no means of stopping second hand sales. Video game devs and publishers DO have a way to control their product, and ultimately they will. The model is there already with PC's, and it will be there one day with consoles.

Do you think they should, though? Or should we define 'reasonable behavior' as anything and everything a company can get away with in pursuit of maximum profit, even when it amounts to doing an end-run around the 'inconvenient' concept of personal property (and the rights and privileges that come with it)?

Because at the end of the day, that's what we're talking about here. DRM that tethers a purchase to a particular user or machine so it can't be lent out or resold, the persistent push for 'software as a service'... they're pushing for a world where you can buy products, but never really own them.

Some people are clearly A-OK with that. I'm not one of them.

[Vane_MagicCity]

No, that's been the fundamental problem with full retail DD games on consoles. Lack of HD space. When your market has from 0 to 320gb of space you don't have a full market to deliver too. Why would publishers want to commit to a full DD system that blocks out a large chunk of their market? When HD space is no longer an issue (next gen) then that disappears and the full market has the open space to go full DD. Sure there are people without broadband access, but the % of people who own a PC and Console the % is quite high. We won't see a full blown DD system of Day1 releases this gen, for that reason.

There is nothing stopping Sony or Microsoft from having daily deals like Steam but they don't and they won't with bigger HDD's. These guys don't want to kill used games so they can give us better deals, they want to kill used games so they can make more money. Now you can say that dropping prices would increase sales and that is true but it isn't something either Microsoft or Sony have embraced, nor do I believe they will when they have bigger HDD's.

Today you can put any HDD into your PS3 can't you? You can upgrade your 360 HDD to 250GB can't you? You can re-download games that you deleted can't you? HDD space isn't the reason the Live Marketplace or PSN aren't throwing deals at consumers.

[Vane_MagicCity]

If Digital really is the future then why is it Digital only devices seem to not be selling so well i mean look at the PSPgo it is pretty much a failure and the Vita so far in Japan isnt doing to much better.

The PSPGo wasn't supported very well, some games weren't playable on the Go because they never became available for DD. Two games I own that weren't available were Kingdom Hearts Birth By Sleep and Crisis Core. The Go also has a smaller screen and let's face it, who would choose to pay MORE for a handheld with a smaller screen and fewer games?

It isn't that DD failed the Go, it's that Sony failed the Go. Seems like they should have atleast ironed out getting the most important PSP games available for DD before releasing it.

[Riggs]

This whole argument is getting kind of ridiculous. As far as the topic of debate goes, these developers need to understand that people are buying used games because they are broke most of the time.

When I was making tons of money, I always bought new. When I was broke, I bought used. It's very simple to understand.

Gamestop has gotten so fucking big though, that this has become an issue because they constantly offer trade in deals. Ripping off the customer and gaining profit for themselves. We end up paying the price w/ online pass's and bullshit key codes must be entered when we put the shiny disc into the machine for the first time. We all know Gamestop is making cash off these dev's and the developers are not getting shit for it. I understand this, but try and think of the ladder for a second down below.

Piracy is rampant. PC releases and Xbox360/PS3/Wii. Hell I see Xbox360 releases available to download before the street date, sometimes 2-3 days. At this point I would think the developers would be happy people are buying their games. Instead of stealing them!

Listen I got cash, I pay for my shit. But I have A LOT of friends who pirate everything. PC/360/PS3/PSP/ they do not pay a dime(and don't forget about the movies). So if I was a developer, I would be happy that people are buying my game. It sounds selfish but seriously some people are just broke and a 29.99 game VS 59.99 is appealing to some folks who wait it out. Sorry for typing so much, just so tired of hearing about this shit it's all over Dtoid every week. Bottom line, blame the brick and mortar because that is the problem. Used games are not a problem, companies like GS abusing the system is the root of all this.


Far as Jim Sterling goes he is a troll but his recent 180 on piracy was an improvement. You really cannot take anything this guy says seriously, he will change his mind about anything it seems. Dtoid is a poor site, some nice folks there but I'd say 50% of traffic is driven by Sterling and his troll articles. Hard for me to respect that.

[Vane_MagicCity]

I still don't get it. Why are used games special? Why are they different from, literally, almost every other item on the planet that I can buy and resell? I'm an avid Heroclix player. I buy miniature pieces of plastic that represent Super Heroes. Sometimes I buy them from other players. Sometimes I sell them. I also used to play card games. I bought packs of cards. I then sold some of those cards. I buy comics. I buy books. I buy DVDs. I could go on and on. And you know what? Never once do I think about who I bought it from originally, because it doesn't matter, they have absolutely zero say in what I do with my property. Why the fuck are games special? This goes for Computer Games too, honestly.

They aren't special and this constant whining from the game industry won't end well. It has been mentioned in this thread how much a pain it has become to buy a new game, that extra code to prove your worthiness gives the edge to used buyers who may choose not to buy the online pass and skip putting a code in. Those buyers will also get the game for cheaper. Some might say the used buyer gets the better experience.

[Ninja Scooter]

They aren't special and this constant whining from the game industry won't end well. It has been mentioned in this thread how much a pain it has become to buy a new game, that extra code to prove your worthiness gives the edge to used buyers who may choose not to buy the online pass and skip putting a code in. Those buyers will also get the game for cheaper. Some might say the used buyer gets the better experience.

Or if it bothers them that much they'd most not put the code in at all? Your prediction makes no sense. And I doubt your average consumer cares. I have yet to hear any friend or coworker that plays games complain about online passes or codes. This is why companies will keep doing it. It's like when people thought mp3s would never catch on because the sound quality was so lousy, and such a drop off from what people were used to, only we learned that your average consumer didn't really care about sound quality that much.

[Dark Octave]

Gaming is expensive as shit, and most games aren't even worth the high price-tag. God bless used games.

It's really not.

$300 gets you a system that should last you 10 years if you'd like it to (and it looks like it easily will this gen).

A game can range from $1 to $60 and could give you years of entertainment if you'd like it to, and $60 is the absolute highest they go under normal circumstances.


Now building muscle cars as a hobby, that's expensive as shit.

Stamp and coin collecting, that's expensive as shit.

Gundam and anime model collecting, that's expensive as shit.

An MMA/boxing gym membership is expensive as shit.

Two tickets to see a movie or even worse, a 3D movie, is expensive as shit.

Gas is expensive as shit.

Lego is expensive as shit.

Diapers are expensive as shit.

Get your priorities straight, gamer.

[Riggs]

They aren't special and this constant whining from the game industry won't end well. It has been mentioned in this thread how much a pain it has become to buy a new game, that extra code to prove your worthiness gives the edge to used buyers who may choose not to buy the online pass and skip putting a code in. Those buyers will also get the game for cheaper. Some might say the used buyer gets the better experience.

For what it's worth, agreed my friend.

[Vane_MagicCity]

I don't have any issue with online passes. I do have issues with the offline content stuff such as in that recent Oblivion like game or Batman, that's bullshit. But considering used gamers aren't supporting the publisher, I don't see why the publisher should support them with hosting games, match making etc.

The problem with online passes is that they were never meant to stay restricted to online content, some of us could see that from the get-go. Soon it will be just like Steam, you will buy a game at retail and then have to put in an activation code and it will be permanently tied to your Live/PSN account. Sadly, you won't get the benefits of Steam, you will still have the "tied to the console" restrictions that you currently have with downloadable games and you will not see the great deals you see on Steam.

[Gez]

It's really not.

Console gaming is where i'm from.

[Vane_MagicCity]

For what it's worth, agreed my friend.

Thanks.

[Vane_MagicCity]

Or if it bothers them that much they'd most not put the code in at all? Your prediction makes no sense. And I doubt your average consumer cares. I have yet to hear any friend or coworker that plays games complain about online passes or codes. This is why companies will keep doing it. It's like when people thought mp3s would never catch on because the sound quality was so lousy, and such a drop off from what people were used to, only we learned that your average consumer didn't really care about sound quality that much.

The average consumer isn't the one who spends so much on games. Gamers do care and if they stop buying then the average consumer isn't enough to keep this bloated industry afloat. Sort of like how the Wii sold well but Wii third party software didn't because casual gamers just don't buy that many games.

[akilshohen]

A lot of these codes are for features that are second thought. I'm mostly thinking of Saints Row 3's online code. I used it, and every time someone attempted to join my game it was stated they were using cheats and I wouldn't be able to earn achievements or save my progress. The code ended up being a waste, and I still sold the game on Amazon for $40, more than the $30 I paid for it new.

[Riggs]

It's really not. $300 gets you a system that should last you 10 years if you'd like it to (and it looks like it easily will this gen). A game can range from $1 to $60 and could give you years of entertainment if you'd like it to, and $60 is the absolute highest they go under normal circumstances. Now building muscle cars as a hobby, that's expensive as shit. Stamp and coin collecting, that's expensive as shit. Gundam and anime model collecting, that's expensive as shit. An MMA/boxing gym membership is expensive as shit. Two tickets to see a movie or even worse, a 3D movie, is expensive as shit. Gas is expensive as shit. Lego is expensive as shit. Diapers are expensive as shit. Get your priorities straight, gamer.

Nice edit.

Some of us have extensive collections of games, hence why we say gaming is expensive.

Some of us have built very nice gaming computers ,hence why we say gaming is expensive.

Some of us have very nice headphones, hence why we say gaming is expensive.

Some of us have even bought very nice gaming computers , hence why we say gaming is expensive.

Just because you are content with a $300 dollar console (your words), does not mean everyone else has the same set up.

Sorry you came off extremely pompous, figured I'd reply back with junior might.

[Ninja Scooter]

The average consumer isn't the one who spends so much on games. Gamers do care and if they stop buying then the average consumer isn't enough to keep this bloated industry afloat. Sort of like how the Wii sold well but Wii third party software didn't because casual gamers just don't buy that many games.

Yes, they fucking do. THe hardcores and diehards aren't' driving the industry, and you are naive if you believe that.

I'd wager that to your average consumer, an "online pass" is no different than the "digital copy" that comes with all the DVDs and blu-rays that they buy, and never redeem and end up expiring a year later.

[Vane_MagicCity]

Sterling said it best. Both side are governed by dicks.

You must be saying that the two sides are: Gamestop and Publishers.

Well, it's too bad that the consumer isn't counted in there somewhere since it's the consumer who puts out the money to buy games.

I fail to see how it's ok to create a business out of a consumer desire to play video games (publishers/developers) but it's not ok to create a business out of a consumer desire to make buying and selling used games easier.

[Vane_MagicCity]

Yes, they fucking do. THe hardcores and diehards aren't' driving the industry, and you are naive if you believe that.

I can see that you're getting upset.

I'll tell you what, you win.

[Ninja Scooter]

I can see that you're getting upset. I'll tell you what, you win.

what exactly is there to be upset about? And how can you see someone is upset by reading words?

[Riggs]

Ya why are people so angry? Unless you are on Gamestops board of directors, or you work for a developer I really don't get why people are being rude in here.

Anyway said my 2 cents on the subject.

[Riggs]

what exactly is there to be upset about? And how can you see someone is upset by reading words?

I don't even know the other guy, but from reading your last post you seemed upset bro ...

[Ninja Scooter]

I don't even know the other guy, but from reading your last post you seemed upset bro ...

because I used the word "fucking"? Whatever. For what it's worth I'm not upset. IF anything I find it amusing how upset people get about online passes and shit. I simply understand why each side (gamestop and publishers) do what they are doing. At the end of the day everyone is simply looking out for number 1.

[Dark Octave]

Nice edit. Some of us have extensive collections of games, hence why we say gaming is expensive. Some of us have built very nice gaming computers ,hence why we say gaming is expensive. Some of us have very nice headphones, hence why we say gaming is expensive. Some of us have even bought very nice gaming computers , hence why we say gaming is expensive. Just because you are content with a $300 dollar console (your words), does not mean everyone else has the same set up. Sorry you came off extremely pompous, figured I'd reply back with junior might.

I hear all the time about how ridiculous Steam sales are.

Gaming is as cheap or expensive as you want it to be, but don't blame the industry because YOU absolutely HAVE to have every game that ever came out and the latest and greatest, day one, every time.

I will never understand how anybody can ever say gaming is expensive. I just bought some Japanese Macross game for the PSP for $5 yesterday. I bought Vanquish for $20 on 360 like a year ago. I just pre-ordered Mass Effect 3 for $60 that will last me a couple of months to beat single player, not including replays and then there is the online that I will be sucked into for hours a day, maybe for years to come. Skyrim is too expensive?? Really? I'm 80 hours in and still haven't scratched the surface. Even $10 games that last about 45 minutes like Trouble Witches Neo or well worth the asking price for the incredible replay value they posses.

Time is money, time is life and if a game sucks me into it and demands that I spend my precious and limited time enjoying it and prevents me from blowing my money on something else that I don't need, then its well worth every penny asked for it.

Complain to me that gaming is an expensive hobby and I'll direct you to Micheal's. I hear they have a sale on knitting yarn and shit right now.

[Grinchy]

Just started listening, and god damn I love that new Twisted Metal theme music. When I first started the demo, I just stared at the main menu listening to it.

[Riggs]

I hear all the time about how ridiculous Steam sales are. Gaming is as cheap or expensive as you want it to be, but don't blame the industry because YOU absolutely HAVE to have the latest and greatest, day one, every time. I will never understand how anybody can ever say gaming is expensive. I just bought some Japanese Macross game for the PSP for $5 yesterday. I bought Vanquish for $20 on 360 like a year ago. I just pre-ordered Mass Effect 3 for $60 that will last me a couple of months to beat single player, not including replays and then there is the online that I will be sucked into for hours a day, maybe for years to come. Skyrim is too expensive?? Really? I'm 80 hours in and still haven't scratched the surface. Even $10 games that last about 45 minutes like Trouble Witches Neo or well worth the asking price for the incredible replay value they posses. Time is money, time is life and if a game sucks me into it and demands that I spend my precious and limited time enjoying it and prevents me from blowing my money on something else that I don't need, then its well worth every penny asked for it. Complain to me that gaming is an expensive hobby and I'll direct you to Micheal's. I hear they have a sale on knitting yarn and shit right now.

Uhm I never said anything that would indicate I am "blaming" the industry. You did say that though.

I am simply saying I have spent thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands, of dollars on video games, audio equiptment, and PC's built for gaming.

You can have it cheap, or expensive it's up to the user. But don't say gaming is inexpensive, that may be your situation. But a lot of people have different situations and budgets. To each their own I guess ...

[staticneuron]

Yes, they fucking do. THe hardcores and diehards aren't' driving the industry, and you are naive if you believe that. I'd wager that to your average consumer, an "online pass" is no different than the "digital copy" that comes with all the DVDs and blu-rays that they buy, and never redeem and end up expiring a year later.

Yes and no. Casuals inflate the numbers of the industry as a whole but hardcore push the niche segments which helps drive the variety we see in games. The hardcore are more likely to have a large library of games per gamer versus the casuals who purchase a handful... it is just that there are alot of casuals.

Because of the finicky nature of casuals, the effect is obvious when a casual title succeeds.

The thing about this interview is stuff like, " the profit margin on new games is slim for gamestop." First of all people need to understand the difference between profit and revenue. Once that is figured out, look at their last fiscal report (actually 2010) in which they kindly separated profits made from new and used games. When you realize they made 1 billion in profit off of new games alone, it really breaks the argument that selling new games alone can't help them keep the doors open.

[Ninja Scooter]

Yes and no. Casuals inflate the numbers of the industry as a whole but hardcore push the niche segments which helps drive the variety we see in games. The hardcore are more likely to have a large library of games per gamer versus the casuals who purchase a handful... it is just that there are alot of casuals. Because of the finicky nature of casuals, the effect is obvious when a casual title succeeds. The thing about this interview is stuff like, " the profit margin on new games is slim for gamestop." First of all people need to understand the difference between profit and revenue. Once that is figured out, look at their last fiscal report (actually 2010) in which they kindly separated profits made from new and used games. When you realize they made 1 billion in profit off of new games alone, it really breaks the argument that selling new games alone can't help them keep the doors open.

I wouldn't' say "casuals" in the "play their Wiis once every 6 months and buy a $0.99 iPhone game every once in a while". I mean the type of gamers that make games like Halo and Madden and CoD and Gears and God of War million selling, multi-million dollar generating hits. I've yet to see that this whole online pass thing is an issue for them or something to rage about, and I don't' see it ever becoming that. The music and movie industry has people used to entering codes for extra shit.

[Riggs]

Yes and no. Casuals inflate the numbers of the industry as a whole but hardcore push the niche segments which helps drive the variety we see in games. The hardcore are more likely to have a large library of games per gamer versus the casuals who purchase a handful... it is just that there are alot of casuals. Because of the finicky nature of casuals, the effect is obvious when a casual title succeeds. The thing about this interview is stuff like, " the profit margin on new games is slim for gamestop." First of all people need to understand the difference between profit and revenue. Once that is figured out, look at their last fiscal report (actually 2010) in which they kindly separated profits made from new and used games. When you realize they made 1 billion in profit off of new games alone, it really breaks the argument that selling new games alone can't help them keep the doors open.

Well said.

[Tobor]

Jaffe is right. All this bullshit is just speed bumps on the road to digital distribution. It's going to be a long painful transition, but once it's done we'll have a healthier industry and still get our games.

[Vane_MagicCity]

Jaffe is right. All this bullshit is just speed bumps on the road to digital distribution. It's going to be a long painful transition, but once it's done we'll have a healthier industry and still get our games.

You'll have a service industry and not a product based industry. The console makers need to look at Steam and figure this out. Nintendo ties games to your console and when that console dies, it's not easy to get your games transferred. Microsoft will let you transfer your games but only once per year and I think you have to buy a $20 cable to do it. Sony has the best, even though they recently downgraded it. Allowing you to register X number of machines to an account.

Steam lets you put your games on any computer and that's the way the future has to be.

[NervousXtian]

There is nothing stopping Sony or Microsoft from having daily deals like Steam but they don't and they won't with bigger HDD's. These guys don't want to kill used games so they can give us better deals, they want to kill used games so they can make more money. Now you can say that dropping prices would increase sales and that is true but it isn't something either Microsoft or Sony have embraced, nor do I believe they will when they have bigger HDD's.

You don't know that, and I've explained why they haven't done a more robust redesign of their stores. The amount of DD available has increased considerably in the last 12 months.

Also, to say they haven't embraced sales is disingenuous to say the least. Things are on sale all the time, often times at pretty good discounts.

Also, why would you think they'd ignore sales, when it shows now that they embrace them.. and one would only think they'd take it the next step as the digital retail space grows. They are in the business of selling games, and the market has shown everywhere that reduced prices sell games.

Today you can put any HDD into your PS3 can't you? You can upgrade your 360 HDD to 250GB can't you? You can re-download games that you deleted can't you? HDD space isn't the reason the Live Marketplace or PSN aren't throwing deals at consumers.

Sure, I did that.. but do you really think that high of a % of people swapped their HD's in their PS3's? Doubtful.

[SatelliteOfLove]

We are on the cusp of some bad shit going down. Very bad shit. Backs are to walls here.

It's not nonsense... it's brilliant. They've taken advantage of gamers' often irrational brand loyalty and obsession with identifying with developers and publishers, and idolizing game creators. Star power. Fashion. When people go out shopping for a used fridge, a used car, or second hand furniture, they're not thinking "should I cheat makers of fine new products out of their hard earned money today?" No, they're thinking "I can't afford to buy new on this," or "let's see if I can find a good deal on used before I buy new". It's called bargain hunting for fuck's sake. Forget Gamestop. There's things called yard sales. But, gamers have psychological triggers that can be manipulated due to how fandom works. The industry is trying really hard right now to sell this new tactic and see if they can't use it to patch over their flawed development funding and business models.

Bravo! Don't forget wooing gamers into buying additional assets and services for splurge reasons instead of reasoned ones while the iron's hot of liking a game or franchise.

[Vane_MagicCity]

You don't know that, and I've explained why they haven't done a more robust redesign of their stores. The amount of DD available has increased considerably in the last 12 months.

If you're saying I have no inside sources, you are correct but then again...do you?

Also, to say they haven't embraced sales is disingenuous to say the least. Things are on sale all the time, often times at pretty good discounts.

Ok but: 1) Why are you arguing that they haven't embraced DD because of HDD space while also saying they have sales all the time 2) The sales aren't on the same scale as Steam

Also, why would you think they'd ignore sales, when it shows now that they embrace them..

Like I said, first you say that they aren't embracing DD because of HDD space and now you are talking about sales that prove they are. I am confused.

Sure, I did that.. but do you really think that high of a % of people swapped their HD's in their PS3's? Doubtful.

First of all, the new PS3's and new 360's have large HDD's, 320GB and 250GB. Secondly, they can still offer lots of games via DD even if some people might still have smaller HDD's. It's not like Best Buy doesn't carry Blu-Rays because not everyone owns a Blu-Ray player.

I would say that the % of people who have larger than 20GB HDD's is larger than those who do not.

[DidntKnowJack]

Jaffe is right. All this bullshit is just speed bumps on the road to digital distribution. It's going to be a long painful transition, but once it's done we'll have a healthier industry and still get our games.

And by that point they'll be getting 0% of my money.

[bigtroyjon]

You'll have a service industry and not a product based industry. The console makers need to look at Steam and figure this out. Nintendo ties games to your console and when that console dies, it's not easy to get your games transferred. Microsoft will let you transfer your games but only once per year and I think you have to buy a $20 cable to do it. Sony has the best, even though they recently downgraded it. Allowing you to register X number of machines to an account.

It's not that hard to do a few minutes of research on this stuff.
You can play your 360 stuff on any console as long as you are logged in to Live or you get one console you can use your stuff on without being logged in and you can transfer that license once a year if you need to. I don't know what the $20 cable is but transferring the license doesn't cost money. It's the best model on consoles and there is no issue with that being the future.

[The Antitype]

Goddamnit, how do you pick a favorite in an argument when both parties are assholes?

ARGH!

[Esura]

And by that point they'll be getting 0% of my money.

Agreed. I think I'll be through with gaming, or at least newer games if they go all digital for consoles.

[Ninja Scooter]

Agreed. I think I'll be through with gaming, or at least newer games if they go all digital for consoles.

it's not if, it's when. Gaming won't somehow be the exception to all media going digital.

[Vane_MagicCity]

It's not that hard to do a few minutes of research on this stuff. You can play your 360 stuff on any console as long as you are logged in to Live or you get one console you can use your stuff on without being logged in and you can transfer that license once a year if you need to. I don't know what the $20 cable is but transferring the license doesn't cost money. It's the best model on consoles and there is no issue with that being the future.

I knew that you could play on any 360 so long as you are being watched by Live but I didn't think it was relevant since I was really talking about offline play. I didn't say that so the confusion is understandable.

Did you also know that if you used your XBOX Live account to set up your Games For Windows Live account, you can't be logged into both at the same time? I was disappointing to learn that my family couldn't watch Netflix on the 360 while I was logged into Age of Empires online. Just threw that out there to show that I really do know a little about the DRM on Live accounts. I created a new account to solve that problem but it really shouldn't have been a problem in the first place.

The $20 cable I was referring to is the transfer cable, I am unsure if it is required to transfer your account and all your DLC to a new 360.

[Fjordson]

I don't hear PC gamers bitching they can't sell their games, and not every PC game is priced cheaper than consoles.

Yeah, I always think about CD keys for PC's. I wonder if devs will eventually just say "fuck it" and bring that over to the consoles. It's worked on the PC for decades.

Though maybe the idea of used console games has become so entrenched that there would be too much of an outcry for that to happen.

Still, I think it'll be either digital distribution or something like CD keys in the future that squashes this whole debate all together.

[TheSeks]

$300 gets you a system that should last you 10 years if you'd like it to (and it looks like it easily will this gen).

$350 360, survived 2 years of heavy use. Paid $150 to fix. Survived one year extra.

$600 PS3 Peter Parker with PS2 BC. Heavy use->2 years. Paid $150, survived two weeks. Sent back and got replacement for free for limited warranty. Survived a year. Died.

Got a $300 replacement thanks to someone on GAF being nice and I still need to pay that off...

How does it feel to be living in dreamland where paying as much as I have to get 2-3 years worth of play out of a console in comparison to paying as much for the 360 twenty years ago for a console that continues to work 15+ years later is a sad dismal reality?

So, yes, gaming can be expensive and your console defense is weak. I and many others have had to fork twice the price you've listed just to get a replacement console because said console makers can't make sure they last.

And PC gaming hardware can be just as expensive. The only saving grace there is that they get Steam sales where if they wait they can swoop in like a hawk and get a 6+ month old game for far less than the console counterpart.

Gas is expensive, Diapers are expensive, yeah. But gaming is just as expensive and you can go without. Just like developers can go without our money because they want to charge $60 for a 2-12 hour single player experience and then split the community with online passes and $10-15+ map packs every two-three months for a year.

[Vane_MagicCity]

Yeah, I always think about CD keys for PC's. I wonder if devs will eventually just say "fuck it" and bring that over to the consoles. It's worked on the PC for decades. Though maybe the idea of used console games has become so entrenched that there would be too much of an outcry for that to happen. Still, I think it'll be either digital distribution or something like CD keys in the future that squashes this whole debate all together.

Online passes are CD-Keys. They are essentially activation codes though they don't yet govern the entire game, that's coming.

[Ninja Scooter]

$350 360, survived 2 years of heavy use. Paid $150 to fix. Survived one year extra. $600 PS3 Peter Parker with PS2 BC. Heavy use->2 years. Paid $150, survived two weeks. Sent back and got replacement for free for limited warranty. Survived a year. Died. Got a $300 replacement thanks to someone on GAF being nice and I still need to pay that off... How does it feel to be living in dreamland where paying as much as I have to get 2-3 years worth of play out of a console in comparison to paying as much for the 360 twenty years ago for a console that continues to work 15+ years later is a sad dismal reality? So, yes, gaming can be expensive and your console defense is weak. I and many others have had to fork twice the price you've listed just to get a replacement console because said console makers can't make sure they last. And PC gaming hardware can be just as expensive. The only saving grace there is that they get Steam sales where if they wait they can swoop in like a hawk and get a 6+ month old game for far less than the console counterpart. Gas is expensive, Diapers are expensive, yeah. But gaming is just as expensive and you can go without. Just like developers can go without our money because they want to charge $60 for a 2-12 hour single player experience and then split the community with online passes and $10-15+ map packs every two-three months for a year.

Why are you still having this back and forth that is completely relative? There is no right or wrong answer to the "gaming is expensive!" debate. It's as expensive as you want it to be, just like any other hobby. Nobody made you rebuy all those systems.

[The Lamp]

I buy used games. Why not.

They're hardly much of a discount (at least for an Amazon shopper myself) and used games have punished all of us with these horrible "online passes" :(

Online Passes have not affected be because I do not sell games and do not buy used, but they bug me because I freaking hate putting in those stupid codes. Come up with a better system please, such as biometric readers or blood extraction devices. That will work.

This. Being tied to one PSN account, for example, makes Twisted Metal get on my nerves.