[duckroll]

I think Zelda and Pokemon both have demographic problems, just in a different way. Zelda on consoles as it is, appeals much more to older audiences now than younger audiences. For Pokemon it is the reverse. The demographics are definitely not balanced, so there are way less older Pokemon fans buying the games compared to younger Pokemon fans. That doesn't mean the audience isn't there, just that it is smaller.

For Zelda, we can see that when the portable entries on the DS appealed much more to a younger audience, being simpler, cuter, and easier, they sold much more in Japan, and still sold respectably worldwide. But with the console entries, the sales peak worldwide are the games which appealed most to a much more hardcore older audience - OoT and TP. When we look at the series sales in average, it's not really all that impressive compared with other multi-million selling franchises, especially those from Nintendo which actually attract a very wide demographic.

In the end, Pokemon's demographic problems are irrelevant because they have huge sales anywhere in the main demographic for the series, and there doesn't seem to be a shortage of children who are introduced into the franchise with each new entry. For Zelda, it seems like a bigger problem because younger audience are not connecting as well with the series, and when they grow up they won't have the interest in the series that the older gamers who did grow up with the series have.

[hardcastlemccormick]

It is in the post! My argument is 3D versus 2D sales in Japan. It is clearly stated as the thesis.

In that case, I would point you towards other 3D updates in the RPG genre. Pokemon would not garner additional complexity in 3D, it would just look nicer, much like Dragon Quest VIII (which sold very well).

Zelda and Mario become more complex in 3D space, but Pokemon is menu based.

Your example of Colosseum and Pokemon XD are not valid because they are not mainline Pokemon releases and are different enough from the rest to turn off many gamers.

[antonz]

I think Zelda and Pokemon both have demographic problems, just in a different way. Zelda on consoles as it is, appeals much more to older audiences now than younger audiences. For Pokemon it is the reverse. The demographics are definitely not balanced, so there are way less older Pokemon fans buying the games compared to younger Pokemon fans. That doesn't mean the audience isn't there, just that it is smaller. For Zelda, we can see that when the portable entries on the DS appealed much more to a younger audience, being simpler, cuter, and easier, they sold much more in Japan, and still sold respectably worldwide. But with the console entries, the sales peak worldwide are the games which appealed most to a much more hardcore older audience - OoT and TP. When we look at the series sales in average, it's not really all that impressive compared with other multi-million selling franchises, especially those from Nintendo which actually attract a very wide demographic. In the end, Pokemon's demographic problems are irrelevant because they have huge sales anywhere in the main demographic for the series, and there doesn't seem to be a shortage of children who are introduced into the franchise with each new entry. For Zelda, it seems like a bigger problem because younger audience are not connecting as well with the series, and when they grow up they won't have the interest in the series that the older gamers who did grow up with the series have.

I think Nintendo is going to have to do what they have been forced to with Mario to a degree. They need to diversify and make 2D old school style and the 3D styles. 3D style just doesnt cut it on its own in Japan and as you say the lack of the 2D "easier" one means there arent new generations being brought in.

I do expect the next Zelda on 3DS to be 2D

[AntMurda]

Another nonsensical post, awesome. Why you talking about Pokemon if you're experience is with Zelda? You can't talk about something that you don't even understand. I think you should let the Zelda defense force rest, its you being bias towards it despite the all the facts against it.

I was really being fascetious about the Pokemon "audience". Seriously I hope you are not upset. It is not that serious. But I was observing Japanese sales objectively based on data alone. My argument is 3D sales versus "2D" sales domestically in Japan. Nothing I have said is nonsensical my friend. All derived from media create data or analytical anecdotal wit.

In that case, I would point you towards other 3D updates in the RPG genre. Pokemon would not garner additional complexity in 3D, it would just look nicer, much like Dragon Quest VIII (which sold very well). Zelda and Mario become more complex in 3D space, but Pokemon is menu based.

Well i will not delve too much into this subject. But our case study here would be mainline double sku Pokemon entry games on high userbase portables from Nintendo. We have never seen an RPG Pokemon game as successfully transitioned into a console. The closest thing would be the Colosseum series which has a dramatic drop off in sales. I am not sure it will ever happen. I mean can you sell a double SKU Pokemon on a console? Can the game transition on to console? Can that same fanbase transition on to console? It has not happened yet.

[Alrus]

It is in the post! My argument is 3D versus 2D sales in Japan. It is clearly stated as the thesis.

But as it's been said, complex 3D game can sell really well in Japan and 2D Marios selling better than 3D ones is universal and not specific to japan at all.

The issue with Skyward Sword wasn't that it was a 3D game (at least not entirely). Also I just don't think Nintendo feels there is a need for mainline pokemon console games, or that they would benefit from it that much.

[nordique]

it's actually better for Nintendo if you think about a couple of things 1) B/W2 won't cost shit to develop 2) the 3DS is backwards compatible 3) get some DS sales while they're at it 4) develop a proper 3DS Pokemon while people are busy playing BW2 5) use class 5 Iveco roadtrains to deliver the money at Iwata's mansion

This. lol

[AntMurda]

But as it's been said, complex 3D game can sell really well in Japan and 2D Marios selling better than 3D ones is universal and not specific to japan at all. The issue with Skyward Sword wasn't that it was a 3D game (at least not entirely). Also I just don't think Nintendo feels there is a need for mainline pokemon console games, or that they would benefit from it that much.

Can you name a couple of complex 3D games that did sell well in Japan? Not being condescending at all. But I would be surprised if you could actually name any. 3D games with 3D movement. "Complex 3D games" for all intent and purposes.

The only thing I can think of recently are Galaxy 1 / Galaxy 2 / 3D Land which is basically the biggest IP of Japan selling 1/5th of the NSMB series. And, also quite notable is how much more 2D segments are being introduced in each succeeding entry.

[hardcastlemccormick]

Can you name a couple of complex 3D games that did sell well in Japan?

Monster Hunter?

EDIT: And it depends on the definition of "sell well."

[AntMurda]

Monster Hunter?

On portables. Yes. And PSOP didn't do to bad. Action RPGs in 3D have done well on portables overall. But lets say console.

[duckroll]

Can you name a couple of complex 3D games that did sell well in Japan? Not being condescending at all. But I would be surprised if you could actually name any. 3D games with 3D movement. "Complex 3D games" for all intent and purposes.

Monster Hunter?

God-tier ownage.

Edit: Oh look, we're shifting goal posts again!

[bigtroyjon]

Demographic and world wide sales are different categories. Demographics mean different discernable caterogies. In this case you have a series that has existed since 1986 and has been around longer to culvitate a much more variant age group. If you think a game from 1996 heavily marketed with a childrens cartoon serves as a bigger demographic then.. well you are entitled to your own definition. Zelda sells big world wide. That's what I said. Not sells more. Main entry Pokemon games (which basically sell twice over anyway with two skus) can outsell it at easy. All you Pokeholics can relax now and go to bed. Let the grown folk talk about the good old days and mature stuff.

Might be the worst post in a MC thread since Charlequin* said the Pokemon B&W 2 rumor was the worst rumor ever on GAF.

*Gotta make that joke after reading that post today!

[AntMurda]

God-tier ownage. Edit: Oh look, we're shifting goal posts again!

Just a few posts above you created a clear dichotomy between consoles and portables. This is not far fetched. You may even have an anomaly. You should have loaded guns if what has been in discussion by a few is proposterous.

[duckroll]

On portables. Yes. And PSOP didn't do to bad. Action RPGs in 3D have done well on portables overall. But lets say console.

Monster Hunter?

Here lemme help the conversation keep flowing. The ownage continues. MH3 sold more on Wii than SMG and SMG2.

[kswiston]

Resident Evil 5 sold 1M between 360 and PS3

[duckroll]

I'm kinda confused with a comment like "And PSOP didn't do to bad." because that seems to imply that he considers 500+k to be acceptable as selling well. In that case, there are literally dozens and dozens of games anyone could think of on consoles or portable which are "complex 3D" and also selling well.

Skyward Sword sold like shit in Japan. It has nothing to do with being 3D. It has to do with there not being an audience for it in Japan.

[BassForever]

On portables. Yes. And PSOP didn't do to bad. Action RPGs in 3D have done well on portables overall. But lets say console.

I can't find sales info for KH1, but KH2 did 727591 in its first 3 days according to the old media create topic http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77998

[duckroll]

I can't find sales info for KH1, but KH2 did 727591 in its first 3 days according to the old media create topic http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77998

KH2 sold 1.1 million in Japan, and KH1 sold 840k. The MGS games all sell about 800k in Japan too. Regardless of platform.

[Kangi]

Aw, don't tell me he left. I'm not out of popcorn yet.

[udivision]

Aw, don't tell me he left. I'm not out of popcorn yet.

He went to bed. Now we can talk about mature stuff.
The stock market... is high.

[AntMurda]

Aw, don't tell me he left. I'm not out of popcorn yet.

No. Just at this point just agreeing to disagree. My point is not really getting across anyway.

[duckroll]

No. Just at this point just agreeing to disagree. My point is not really getting across anyway.

Which point? The one that you would be surprised if anyone could actually name any 3D games with 3D movement that sold well in Japan? Are you very surprised now?

[Kangi]

No. Just at this point just agreeing to disagree. My point is not really getting across anyway.

[Vic]

Just admit that you're wrong, AntMurda. Everything's going to be okay afterwards.

[kswiston]

Just for Fun, the console games this generation that have broken 400k. I will let someone else decide how many of these are complex 3D titles vs simple 2D titles. All of these are higher than Skyward Sword's LTD will end up being (Without a Wii U port).

#	Platform	Title					Sales
1	PS3	Monster Hunter Portable 3rd HD Ver.		404,501
2	PS3	World Soccer Winning Eleven 12: PES 2009	405,653
3	PS3	World Soccer Winning Eleven 2012		405,757
4	PS3	Hot Shots Golf 5				409,840
5	PS3	Yakuza: Of the End				409,949
6	Wii	Taiko Drum Master Wii 2				418,284
7	Wii	Wii Music					424,192
8	PS3	World Soccer Winning Eleven 2010		438,552
9	PS3	World Soccer Winning Eleven 2011		443,008
10	PS3	Mobile Suit Gundam: Extreme Vs.			465,976
11	PS3	Dynasty Warriors 7				470,773
12	Wii	Kirby's Epic Yarn				483,248
13	Wii	Dragon Quest Swords				486,222
14	Wii	Super Paper Mario				505,491
15	PS3	Yakuza 3					509,223
16	PS3	Resident Evil 5					520,564
17	Wii	Just Dance Wii					539,422
18	Wii	The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess		552,476
19	PS3	Hokuto no Ken Musou				553,229
20	PS3	Yakuza 4: Heir to the Legend			557,771
21	Wii	Kirby's Return to Dream Land			588,260
22	Wii	Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games		594,157
23	PS3	Gran Turismo 5					595,881
24	PS3	Tales of Xillia					632,151
25	Wii	Mario Sports Mix				645,005
26	Wii	WarioWare: Smooth Moves				654,200
27	Wii	Taiko no Tatsujin Wii				657,666
28	Wii	Rhythm Heaven Wii				661,532
29	PS3	Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots	706,461
30	PS3	Final Fantasy XIII-2				797,986
31	Wii	Super Mario All-Stars				916,410
32	Wii	Donkey Kong Country Returns			952,018
33	Wii	Super Mario Galaxy 2				1,003,763
34	Wii	Super Mario Galaxy				1,017,287
35	Wii	Monster Hunter 3				1,070,743
36	Wii	Animal Crossing: City Folk			1,221,459
37	Wii	Mario Party 8					1,427,575
38	PS3	Final Fantasy XIII				1,904,313
39	Wii	Super Smash Bros. Brawl				2,094,464
40	Wii	Wii Party					2,211,869
41	Wii	Wii Fit Plus					2,336,182
42	Wii	Wii Play					2,800,615
43	Wii	Wii Sports Resort				2,808,691
44	Wii	Mario Kart Wii					3,449,092
45	Wii	Wii Fit						3,561,787
46	Wii	Wii Sports					3,682,754
47	Wii	New Super Mario Bros. Wii			4,391,312

[duckroll]

Just for Fun, the console games this generation that have broken 400k. I will let someone else decide how many of these are complex 3D titles vs simple 2D titles. All of these are higher than Skyward Sword's LTD will end up being. Without a Wii U port. # Platform Title Sales 1 PS3 Monster Hunter Portable 3rd HD Ver. 404,501 5 PS3 Yakuza: Of the End 409,949 10 PS3 Mobile Suit Gundam: Extreme Vs. 465,976 11 PS3 Dynasty Warriors 7 470,773 15 PS3 Yakuza 3 509,223 16 PS3 Resident Evil 5 520,564 18 Wii The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess 552,476 19 PS3 Hokuto no Ken Musou 553,229 20 PS3 Yakuza 4: Heir to the Legend 557,771 24 PS3 Tales of Xillia 632,151 29 PS3 Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots 706,461 30 PS3 Final Fantasy XIII-2 797,986 33 Wii Super Mario Galaxy 2 1,003,763 34 Wii Super Mario Galaxy 1,017,287 35 Wii Monster Hunter 3 1,070,743 38 PS3 Final Fantasy XIII 1,904,313

I selected my picks.

[Man God]

People tend to overlook just how well Colosseum and XD did for being GCN games.

[Chris1964]

I'm really curious for B/W 2 sales and how market will see it.

[BishopLamont]

I'm really curious for B/W 2 sales and how market will see it.

Half way between a "Grey" version and the main games sounds about right.

[I Stalk Alone]

Are those current sales? What are the chances of these two breaking a million in japan by the end of wii's liftime?

31 Wii Super Mario All-Stars 916,410
32 Wii Donkey Kong Country Returns 952,018

[BishopLamont]

Are those current sales? What are the chances of these two breaking a million in japan by the end of wii's liftime? 31 Wii Super Mario All-Stars 916,410 32 Wii Donkey Kong Country Returns 952,018

Not sure bout Mario but DKC dropped under 1k/week IIRC.

[Chris1964]

Are those current sales? What are the chances of these two breaking a million in japan by the end of wii's liftime? 31 Wii Super Mario All-Stars 916,410 32 Wii Donkey Kong Country Returns 952,018

Zero for Mario, very low for DK

{2011.06.20 - 2011.06.26} [WII] Super Mario All-Stars (Nintendo) {2010.10.21} - * / 907.975
___

{2011.10.31 - 2011.11.06} [WII] Super Mario All-Stars (Nintendo) {2010.10.21} - * / 915.131
{2011.11.07 - 2011.11.13} [WII] Super Mario All-Stars (Nintendo) {2010.10.21} - 155 / 915.286
___

{2011.12.19 - 2011.12.25} [WII] Super Mario All-Stars (Nintendo) {2010.10.21} - * / 916.410


{2011.06.20 - 2011.06.26} [WII] Donkey Kong Country Returns (Nintendo) {2010.12.09} - * / 928.495
___

{2011.11.07 - 2011.11.13} [WII] Donkey Kong Country Returns (Nintendo) {2010.12.09} - * / 945.693
___

{2011.11.21 - 2011.11.27} [WII] Donkey Kong Country Returns (Nintendo) {2010.12.09} - * / 946.503
___

{2011.12.19 - 2011.12.25} [WII] Donkey Kong Country Returns (Nintendo) {2010.12.09} - * / 952.018

[lunchwithyuzo]

Mario All-Stars shipped under a million iirc, and Nintendo's not sending out anymore.

I think DKCR might do it though.

[Alrus]

Are those current sales? What are the chances of these two breaking a million in japan by the end of wii's liftime? 31 Wii Super Mario All-Stars 916,410 32 Wii Donkey Kong Country Returns 952,018

No chance for Mario (I don't think they're shipping the game anymore) and doubtful for DKCR because sales became really low after the first few months.

[Anth0ny]

it's actually better for Nintendo if you think about a couple of things 1) B/W2 won't cost shit to develop 2) the 3DS is backwards compatible 3) get some DS sales while they're at it 4) develop a proper 3DS Pokemon while people are busy playing BW2 5) use class 5 Iveco roadtrains to deliver the money at Iwata's mansion

1) Would it cost more to develop it for 3DS? Lets be honest here, they could take the assets from Black and White and totally recycle them for 3DS. Throw some shitty 3D effects in there too. That's what most people were expecting for "Pokemon Grey".

2) Sure.

3) Sure. Not sure why they'd want that, but sure.

4) Do they really need to make a "proper" 3DS Pokemon? A mainline Pokemon will sell trillions, no matter how "proper" it is.

I'm happy it's for DS. I get to import it. I was getting ready to buy a Japanese 3DS for Grey! But I don't understand why they're pushing it out for this dead console when they could EASILY put it out for 3DS, get a fuckton of software AND hardware sales out of it, and pretty much have a monopoly over the TOP 5 spots on the list for weeks and weeks and weeks. Imagine the Vita having to go up against Pokemon, Mario, Mario Kart and Monster Hunter this year. Jesus Christ.

Is the huge install base for DS really THAT important? Isn't it time to move on? Theoretically, they could have released Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire on GB/GBC. It had a fucking billion times larger install base than GBA at the time. But they put it on GBA to move hardware. This is Pokemon, not Mother 3. Why not release a new Mario game for DS at this point? I'm sure New Super Mario Bros 2 would be really cheap to make and sell a boat load.

Just giving my two cents. If they're really working on Gen 6 already, or whatever the 3DS Pokemon is going to be, hopefully it'll be out early next year ^_^

[Chris1964]

At least we know from now that market will rise again for first time after 2007

2000 CY {1999.12.27 - 2000.12.31} Total Value (Millions Yen) - 509.960
2001 CY {2001.01.01 - 2001.12.30} Total Value (Millions Yen) - 484.710
2002 CY {2001.12.31 - 2002.12.29} Total Value (Millions Yen) - 471.050
2003 CY {2002.12.30 - 2003.12.28} Total Value (Millions Yen) - 431.180
2004 CY {2003.12.29 - 2004.12.26} Total Value (Millions Yen) - 428.050
2005 CY {2004.12.27 - 2005.12.25} Total Value (Millions Yen) - 454.730
2006 CY {2005.12.26 - 2006.12.31} Total Value (Millions Yen) - 625.790
2007 CY {2007.01.01 - 2007.12.30} Total Value (Millions Yen) - 687.950
2008 CY {2007.12.31 - 2008.12.28} Total Value (Millions Yen) - 582.610
2009 CY {2008.12.29 - 2009.12.27} Total Value (Millions Yen) - 542.640
2010 CY {2009.12.28 - 2010.12.26} Total Value (Millions Yen) - 493.760
2011 CY {2010.12.27 - 2011.12.25} Total Value (Millions Yen) - 454.380

[extralite]

I don't think Pokemon only sells to kids but obviously success with the very young audience drives its sales. Basically kids guarantee the series multimillion sales already, the occasional older player just might give it an extra million (this number is pure speculation on my part but they don't show videos of older Pokemon players commenting on what they like about the game on Nintendo channel for no reason).

Also, the Zelda DS games are true expanded audience titles I think, and like Layton they would especially appeal to women as well. Even during the Gamecube era Nintendo games appealed to women in Japan (there were many ads targeting young mothers at the time), Zelda is the kind of series that both a son and his mother can enjoy.

So I'm guessing the Zelda/Link romance plot in SS hindered its commercial success in Japan. I.e. mothers are less likely to buy a game for their kids where they get to handle a sword and which encourages them to have romantic feelings for Zelda.

[BishopLamont]

B&W2 is a pretty smart move. It'll sell 3DS systems for people without a DS, mainly kids, but it'll also sell to both the DS and 3DS userbase and it gives Gamefreak time to develop a proper 3DS Pokemon.

At the least it'll help stop investors harassing Nintendo to put Pokemon on the iOS.

[bigtroyjon]

1) Would it cost more to develop it for 3DS? Lets be honest here, they could take the assets from Black and White and totally recycle them for 3DS. Throw some shitty 3D effects in there too. That's what most people were expecting for "Pokemon Grey". 2) Sure. 3) Sure. Not sure why they'd want that, but sure. 4) Do they really need to make a "proper" 3DS Pokemon? A mainline Pokemon will sell trillions, no matter how "proper" it is. I'm happy it's for DS. I get to import it. I was getting ready to buy a Japanese 3DS for Grey! But I don't understand why they're pushing it out for this dead console when they could EASILY put it out for 3DS, get a fuckton of software AND hardware sales out of it, and pretty much have a monopoly over the TOP 5 spots on the list for weeks and weeks and weeks. Imagine the Vita having to go up against Pokemon, Mario, Mario Kart and Monster Hunter this year. Jesus Christ. Is the huge install base for DS really THAT important? Isn't it time to move on? Theoretically, they could have released Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire on GB/GBC. It had a fucking billion times larger install base than GBA at the time. But they put it on GBA to move hardware. This is Pokemon, not Mother 3. Why not release a new Mario game for DS at this point? I'm sure New Super Mario Bros 2 would be really cheap to make and sell a boat load. Just giving my two cents. If they're really working on Gen 6 already, or whatever the 3DS Pokemon is going to be, hopefully it'll be out early next year ^_^

you don't get why they would want DS sales? They are millions upon millions behind the shipment targets they had 9 months ago. In all likelihood they have a ton of DS stock that they would like to get rid of at prices above clearance.

[walking fiend]

I don't get why SS didn't sell in Japan; I mean, I don't see what went wrong...

It was an excellent game and art style seemed to be close to what Japan would like?

[luca1980]

I don't get why SS didn't sell in Japan; I mean, I don't see what went wrong... It was an excellent game and art style seemed to be close to what Japan would like?

Imho wrong motion controls and the franchise now it's all puzzle and action parts, before it was Adventure and few jrpg elements which now are really buried under puzzle elements uninteresting. The shift of focus from adventure was probably too much. Imho

[Nirolak]

I don't get why SS didn't sell in Japan; I mean, I don't see what went wrong... It was an excellent game and art style seemed to be close to what Japan would like?

I feel there are a few issues:

1.) It looks like a kid friendly game, but can end up being too difficult/complex to be easily accessible for kids, so they don't end up gaining a lot of sales there. This might alos mean that older audiences feel they're "too old" to play the game, since they view it as a kid friendly title. By this same token, it can seem too complex for more casual audiences that might have no issues playing Dragon Quest, Wii Sports, or various Rhythm/Party games. The added motion controls, since they're more specific, can also add to the perceived accessibility barrier.

2.) The game doesn't match up with the heavy story focus and/or cinematic presentation values of games like Final Fantasy, Yakuza, Tales, Resident Evil, and Metal Gear Solid. If games like these are what their old fans now want, they have to offer that to recapture them. Even games like Dynasty Warriors have a lot of CG cutscenes with voice acting and fairly high production values.

3.) The game also isn't a multiplayer focused title like Monster Hunter or Gundam, so there's no real pressure to join in so you can play with your friends.

[farnham]

I don't get why SS didn't sell in Japan; I mean, I don't see what went wrong... It was an excellent game and art style seemed to be close to what Japan would like?

it wasnt called Wii Adventure

seriously. just get link out of there replace it with a mii

and baam ! million seller

zelda is just not a sustainable franchise anymore

[Cygnus X-1]

I'm really curious for B/W 2 sales and how market will see it.

Sure the userbase of DS worldwide now is incredibly huge. And 3DS can play DS games.

My guess is that they will market it as 2D game for both 3DS and DS.

Anyway, what's clear is that this move is just to increase cash flow.

[Salvadora]

Sure the userbase of DS worldwide now is incredibly huge. And 3DS can play DS games. My guess is that they will market it as 2D game for both 3DS and DS. Anyway, what's clear is that this move is just to increase cash flow.

It has to make the transition eventually.

[Anasui Kishibe]

1) Would it cost more to develop it for 3DS? Lets be honest here, they could take the assets from Black and White and totally recycle them for 3DS. Throw some shitty 3D effects in there too. That's what most people were expecting for "Pokemon Grey". 2) Sure. 3) Sure. Not sure why they'd want that, but sure. 4) Do they really need to make a "proper" 3DS Pokemon? A mainline Pokemon will sell trillions, no matter how "proper" it is. I'm happy it's for DS. I get to import it. I was getting ready to buy a Japanese 3DS for Grey! But I don't understand why they're pushing it out for this dead console when they could EASILY put it out for 3DS, get a fuckton of software AND hardware sales out of it, and pretty much have a monopoly over the TOP 5 spots on the list for weeks and weeks and weeks. Imagine the Vita having to go up against Pokemon, Mario, Mario Kart and Monster Hunter this year. Jesus Christ. Is the huge install base for DS really THAT important? Isn't it time to move on? Theoretically, they could have released Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire on GB/GBC. It had a fucking billion times larger install base than GBA at the time. But they put it on GBA to move hardware. This is Pokemon, not Mother 3. Why not release a new Mario game for DS at this point? I'm sure New Super Mario Bros 2 would be really cheap to make and sell a boat load. Just giving my two cents. If they're really working on Gen 6 already, or whatever the 3DS Pokemon is going to be, hopefully it'll be out early next year ^_^

but maybe they are taking the assets from the Pokedex, and testing a new style in proper 3D. I believe those beautiful renders won't be going to waste. This is what I suspect Nintendo usually does, just like when Pit appeared in Brawl



there's also a stealthy six point I forgot to mention (I mentioned it in the BW2 thread): June could be a dead month for Nintendo, perfect chance for Vita to chomp some sales out of the 3DS, so they release this to prevent the tragedy

[Salvadora]

Pokemon main games are usually released in September right? Maybe they are changing that up. I do think they are working on a 3DS game, Its just taking longer.

[extralite]

I feel there are a few issues: 1.) It looks like a kid friendly game, but can end up being too difficult/complex to be easily accessible for kids, so they don't end up gaining a lot of sales there. This might alos mean that older audiences feel they're "too old" to play the game, since they view it as a kid friendly title. By this same token, it can seem too complex for more casual audiences that might have no issues playing Dragon Quest, Wii Sports, or various Rhythm/Party games. The added motion controls, since they're more specific, can also add to the perceived accessibility barrier.

I can't say I agree with this but I'm still interested if your observation is supposed to apply to a specific market. SS sold better in the US. Does that mean there are enough older players there so it doesn't need the kids?

About my disagreeing with you, although the game itself may be more difficult than other 3D-Zeldas, it still isn't particular difficult and the controls are nothing but intuitive. I can't see them as a barrier, especially not for kids.

2.) The game doesn't match up with the heavy story focus and/or cinematic presentation values of games like Final Fantasy, Yakuza, Tales, Resident Evil, and Metal Gear Solid. If games like these are what their old fans now want, they have to offer that to recapture them. Even games like Dynasty Warriors have a lot of CG cutscenes with voice acting and fairly high production values.

I think the audience for that type of game isn't on the Wii in the first place. It never really was and it certainly isn't anymore.

3.) The game also isn't a multiplayer focused title like Monster Hunter or Gundam, so there's no real pressure to join in so you can play with your friends.

Still other Zeldas, even a recent one, sold considerably better. Other non-multiplayer Wii games like Kirby also sold better.

[Nirolak]

I can't say I agree with this but I'm still interested if your observation is supposed to apply to a specific market. SS sold better in the US. Does that mean there are enough older players there so it doesn't need the kids?

I feel there is are a lot more Zelda fans in total that still play games in the U.S., so even if you're primarily selling to them, it's a lot more.

I mean, for example, their commercial features a guy who played Zelda when he was a kid now playing the game while his kid watches. I feel that's a rather fascinating angle, since normally when I see that kind of commercial, the parent and child are playing together (in a multiplayer game) or the parent is watching their kid play the game. It specifically targets people who used to play Zelda and tries to get them to pick up the new game, and treats the "oh, and your kids will probably like it too" as a secondary note.

About my disagreeing with you, although the game itself may be more difficult than other 3D-Zeldas, it still isn't particular difficult and the controls are nothing but intuitive. I can't see them as a barrier, especially not for kids.

That's why I said perceived accessibility barrier. It doesn't matter if someone is actually difficult, just if people feel it is.

I think the audience for that type of game isn't on the Wii in the first place. It never really was and it certainly isn't anymore.

Perhaps, but if that type of gamer isn't on the platform anymore, and it had a notable crossover with the Zelda audience, then that would correlate well to why this type of game now sells less.

Still other Zeldas, even a recent one, sold considerably better. Other non-multiplayer Wii games like Kirby also sold better.

I feel Kirby appeals a lot better to kids and casual audiences without ever seeming intimidating. I mean, you play a happy pink ball in a 2D platformer instead of a guy with a sword in a 3D world.

As for why the other Zelda sold better, I would refer to your previous quote again, and note that there was likely a core gamer sect that picked up the console at launch, but no longer uses it, and didn't feel Skyward Sword looked compelling enough to go hook up their Wii again/buy more games for it.

[Chris1964]

Still other Zeldas, even a recent one, sold considerably better. Other non-multiplayer Wii games like Kirby also sold better.

Both Kirbys have multiplayer.

[grimshawish]

Pokemon main games are usually released in September right? Maybe they are changing that up. I do think they are working on a 3DS game, Its just taking longer.

I would think B/W2 is pretty much evidence that there is to be a 3DS game later this year.
Otherwise why release this on DS? Obviously they don't want to go through the costs etc.

And Pokemon Grey 3DS will come out for the Christmas market :)