[NervousXtian]

Well, fine, but that's a different argument from "DOOM's level design was generic as hell." Since you mentioned it earlier, Croteam's doing well enough with Serious Sam 3. DOOM could keep being a relevant and profitable brand more or less indefinitely if id could produce tightly focused sequels with a similar budget and market them to the niche audience that still likes that sort of thing. It'd certainly be a safer bet than trying to make it into a massive $20M+ affair that tries to straddle the fence the way RAGE did.

They were generic as hell, but fun... especially up against Duke 3D. Didn't mean I didn't play the shit out of them, I did. Quake was even more generic. I was blown away back then, sure.. we all were.

I'm just saying that same design philosophy unless done on an indie type scale, with an indie budget, just wouldn't work today. To flesh out those kinds of levels in this day and age and make them look "good" and not copy/pasted would cost some mega bucks. Also, take Doom 2.. is the gaming world today going to accept giant walls in lieu of the dreaded "invisible walls" and "garbage and overturned cars" that make up level design today? Doubtful.

I think fully hardcore gamers would accept a budget released indie-type Doom4 reboot. Spruced up graphics, but copy/paste textures and barren levels with limited assets but huge sprawling levels. I'd play it, but the cost to do that say with Metro 2033 aesthetics in a Doom2 leveled design? That'd cost a developer HUGE money to make, and still.. brick walls with a burning cityscape in the backdrop?

[Zeliard]

Absolutely. Make it like a shooter-heavy version of Metroid Prime. You should feel isolated, and whatever information you do find should pretty much be optional like Metroid Prime's scanning system.

Yep, let the environment offer up that sort of story detail. The original Doom games had a pretty barebones story but they were so effective atmospherically through a combination of enemy, sound and level designs. Scouring around levels looking for items was always a treat, and you never knew what'd be lurking around the next corner. And the sound, seriously. I can still hear the basic zombie's moaning death cries. Those games felt ominous even with what is now an extremely primitive graphics engine, so you don't need robust visuals to get that done.

But apparently you may need a lesser graphics engine for better level design. The concern with modern games is that visuals and generally flashy shit have trumped true level design. And focus testing, of course. People don't know which way is up and which way is forward - literally - so we generally get games with little verticality and stupid, heavily signposted linear design.

Could we ever get another game like Thief 1/2, with those massive intricate levels? Dunno how Edith Thi4f will turn out, but it doesn't even seem possible.

Beyond focus testing and tame publishers, I wonder if it goes back to the notion that creators are able to do something greater if they are in some sense shackled, trying and succeeding magnificently at evoking something meaningful through otherwise technically limited means, i.e. composers working with 8-bit music back in the day, or artists with 8-bit sprites. Those supposed limitations seem in some cases key to the stellar creativity, not only due to relatively lower development costs but especially in terms of the creative drive of making something more with less.

[sp3000]

I actually think Doom 3 had one of the best stories in an FPS game. It wasn't very original, but the way it was told and the detail put into all the messages was great.

[NervousXtian]

Please post games featuring 100% real life.

I didn't say 100% real life.. I said a living 3D world.

Deus EX: HR
Grand Theft Auto IV
Crysis 1 & 2
Far Cry 2 (and Far Cry 3 looks this way)
Metro 2033
Dead Island (in spots)
Stalker series

Not all of them nailed it completely, but they made living world that could feel like real places. You felt like you were somewhere that could actually exist, but they all showed their limitations in one way or the other, for various reasons.

[ultim8p00]

Thing I really want Doom 4 to NOT have:

ADS (fuck this shit seriously I want to see my goddamn guns)
Sprint button
2 weapon limit
Regenerating health
Slow walk speed


Please ID

[Zee-Row]

Doom 4 was basically gonna be a remake of Doom 2? Doom 3 was basically a remake of the first Doom.

[NervousXtian]

Beyond focus testing and tame publishers, I wonder if it goes back to the notion that creators are able to do something greater if they are in some sense shackled, trying and succeeding magnificently at evoking something meaningful through otherwise technically limited means, i.e. composers working with 8-bit music back in the day, or artists with 8-bit sprites. Those supposed limitations seem in some cases key to the stellar creativity, not only due to relatively lower development costs but especially in terms of the creative drive of making something more with less.

The limitations indeed were why you got levels like we did in Doom 1 & 2. Realistic levels would have been atrocious, you couldn't flesh them out. So you go the other way, get rid of real and just make it a game.

We still have limitations, but they hit at a far higher point then back then.. and one of the biggest is the cost of just producing all that unique art. It all takes time.. making that extra path in Doom, not that much.. you were reusing assets.. making that path today and making it unique? That's time and money. How many branching paths can you make to still give the illusion of choice, but without costing a fortune? That's the choice now.

I don't see that going away though.

[StevieP]

But apparently you may need a lesser graphics engine for better level design. The concern with modern games is that visuals and generally flashy shit have trumped true level design. And focus testing, of course. People don't know which way is up and which way is forward - literally - so we generally get games with little verticality and stupid, heavily signposted linear design.

Part of this is actually design-for-consoles as well. As long as we're still relegated to dual-analog pads the level design will reflect it. The analog stick is a lot more difficult to stabilize vertically than it is horizontally, and autoaim algorithms are designed even to compensate for horizontal judder.

Beyond focus testing and tame publishers, I wonder if it goes back to the notion that creators are able to do something greater if they are in some sense shackled, trying and succeeding magnificently at evoking something meaningful through otherwise technically limited means, i.e. composers working with 8-bit music back in the day, or artists with 8-bit sprites. Those supposed limitations seem in some cases key to the stellar creativity, not only due to relatively lower development costs but especially in terms of the creative drive of making something more with less.

Phenomenal post.

Thing I really want Doom 4 to NOT have: ADS (fuck this shit seriously I want to see my goddamn guns) Sprint button 2 weapon limit Regenerating health Slow walk speed Please ID

Seconded.

[MuseManMike]

Thing I really want Doom 4 to NOT have: ADS (fuck this shit seriously I want to see my goddamn guns) Sprint button 2 weapon limit Regenerating health Slow walk speed Please ID

Excellent post.

[Riggs]

Someone on GAF was saying the project was a total mess and they had to start with almost nothing when they finished Rage IIRC. This was around the same time they had layoffs.

After playing Rage I wouldn't doubt it for a bit : (

[TucoBenedictoPacifico]

Serious Sam 3 made the making of any future Doom completely irrelevant, anyway.

[purple cobra]

I think that's a dualshock 3 issue. Controls were snappy on a 360 pad.

I don't think it was that. Just something about the controls of the game felt "off". Yes, I would push the stick and the gun would move so they were responsive in that regard. But to me they never felt as snappy as say, Bad Company 2 or even COD.

They felt a bit heavy-ish. Especially when looking through the scope/half-binocular. I would have those bandits in my sights and I would use that scope from a distance but the controls made it tough for me to track targets.

I don't know, I guess it's just me. *shrug*

[John Rabbit]

That's because that's all you could basically do with an engine back then. They didn't look like realistic places at all.. people expect things to be somewhat realistic in nature, even if it's hell.

it's like you don't even understand DooM at all.

[TommyT]

Someone on GAF was saying the project was a total mess and they had to start with almost nothing when they finished Rage IIRC. This was around the same time they had layoffs.

That would be me.

Wow @ this thread

:lol indeed.

[Sciz]

Serious Sam 3 made the making of any future Doom completely irrelevant, anyway.

As much as I love Sam, it's quite a different series.

[NervousXtian]

it's like you don't even understand DooM at all.

I'm not talking about Doom back then, I've addressed that.. I'm talking about making Doom from the early 90's the same now in 2012.

[MightyHedgehog]

IMO, Doom 4 needs to be treated with same reverence that Namco approached Pac-Man C.E./DX, where even the iconic appearance is preserved but enhanced rather than being completely bulldozed in favor of more realistic digs. I don't mean billboarded sprites and three frames of unique animation, but the general look should come through even though it's been updated massively. The reinterpretations that happened with Doom 3 were novel for being fully 3D versions of those iconic characters, but I never preferred any of them over the original designs. While Doom 3 certainly looked amazing (and still does, IMO) and had a very dark and cinematic feel, it wasn't Doom as that Heavy Metal-esque tack that the first two reveled in was pitch perfect for so much bloody grinding and funny antics among tense, keyboard mashing-heavy moments. I don't want Doom to be serious in the least, but we still got Doom 3, and Doom 4 will likely fall in-line with a focus on cinematic wallpaper so completely superfluous to the experience it defies logic that anyone would spend the money and time it takes to surgically attach an extra butt to a perfectly fine specimen of gaming delight.

[s7evn]

Thing I really want Doom 4 to NOT have: ADS (fuck this shit seriously I want to see my goddamn guns) Sprint button 2 weapon limit Regenerating health Slow walk speed Please ID

So you want a '90's generation PC arena fps... Game development has moved on and you probably won't get what you want due to the consoles having a limited number of options compared to the PC.

ADS: That's how you shoot a gun, I don't get the hate on it. Guns have recoil and don't shoot like the 90's made them seem. I like it when the guns feel weighty and have kick, without ADS you don't really get the feeling that you're holding a badass gun.

Sprint/Slow walk speed: You want these combined into one movement speed which is probably too fast for gamepads to work well with. I don't really care about movement speed, it really depends on what kind of game they are trying to make and the pacing they want.

2 weapon limit is something they could do without and I agree with you on this. I hate having to choose from a limited arsenal. In a sci-fi setting like doom, give me all the cool guns you designed and let me tear shit up.

Regenerating health: I could go either way on this. The problem is that there is no perfect way to do a health system in video games, and while regenerating health seems bad, it makes about as much sense as random health pack that instantly heal the character. I think a hybrid option like Halo would work, there are both involved (shields + health).


My general feeling is that you want a game that a non-indie company won't make, because it would be PC only and have limited appeal. Basically you want quake or unreal for this generation, and while I'd love to see that happen, I don't think Doom 4 is the game to want that feeling from.

This all only applies if the game they intend on making is a Doom 3 style game (3D, modern style shooter).

[Raonak]

Am I the only one who wants them to do a retro doom1/2 style download game for PSN/XBLA?

same sprite based technology and stuff.
Sorta like how megaman10 did it.

[MightyHedgehog]

Am I the only one who wants them to do a retro doom1/2 style download game for PSN/XBLA? same sprite based technology and stuff. Sorta like how megaman10 did it.

Yeah, a demake would be nice, though it would naturally have to rely upon some big gameplay enhancements to justify why we're not just getting DLC for the existing releases. Mods are still being made and the base technology has seen big improvements to classic wads, so that's another strike against a lazy demake. It would have to be a substantial improvement, mechanically.

[s7evn]

Yeah, a demake would be nice, though it would naturally have to rely upon some big gameplay enhancements to justify why we're not just getting DLC for the existing releases.

Eh, a whole new game in that style would justify to be more than just DLC. A retro style like that on a new engine with HD graphics would be pretty cool.

[Mr Swine]

Serious Sam 3 made the making of any future Doom completely irrelevant, anyway.

Eh what? Doom and Serious Sam have nothing in common except having lots of enemies.

[Ithil]

What's up with so many people not knowing DOOM 2 took place on Earth? It was in the title.

[Appleman]

It may be an unpopular opinion, but I would be totally down for DOOM4 to be way more corridor-y than these screenshots hint at. Graphics can be WAY, WAY, improved when they aren't shooting for these sorts of environments. Would love to see what a current PC can do to a DOOM3-esque environment.

[EmCeeGramr]

What's up with so many people not knowing DOOM 2 took place on Earth? It was in the title.

On an intellectual level yeah you remember "Hell on Earth" and that being where it ostensibly took place. But just like how Doom 1's "Martian military bases" just looked like brown and beige blocky buildings full of monsters, only a few areas in Doom 2 vaguely resembled Earth due to the graphics at the time. People just remember Mars and crazy hellscape levels shaped like pentagrams or skulls filled with a billion Lost Souls.

I would be totally down for a game on Earth, as long as the "Hell" factor is significantly ramped up in the first act (like, constant red skies and burning, rivers of blood, bone pillars and shit). I just don't want a first act being Crysis 2 with zombie soldiers and demons instead of aliens.

[Grassy]

Those screens look like they could be from a RAGE expansion pack/DLC...they don't really scream "DOOM" to me.

[MightyHedgehog]

There were more barrels. That's how you could tell you were on earth.

[Fjordson]

I...think some of those screens look pretty cool...*shrug*

[JaseC]

Someone on GAF was saying the project was a total mess and they had to start with almost nothing when they finished Rage IIRC. This was around the same time they had layoffs.

If the project was scrapped and restarted after Rage went gold, slight miscommunication may explain the seemingly erroneous claims that it was cancelled entirely.

I...think some of those screens look pretty cool...*shrug*

Ditto, but they most don't bring to mind Doom.

[Poimandres]

Rage absolutely nailed what is most important in a FPS: the shooting itself!

Anyone who dismissed it because of the naysayers should at least try out the demo. Far worse games are held in higher esteem on GAF.

So these are environment shots from the ex-director of Doom 4? I wonder how much of his work will remain in the final product? I can't really see them throwing away all of those environments.

[Raptomex]

It better be closer to Doom 1 & 2 in terms of gameplay. I want Cyberdemons...everywhere.

[Grinchy]

Rage absolutely nailed what is most important in a FPS: the shooting itself! Anyone who dismissed it because of the naysayers should at least try out the demo. Far worse games are held in higher esteem on GAF.

Maybe I need to try it out on PC somehow, because the PS3 demo felt like shit to me. I thought the shooting wasn't very good.

[ZombieSupaStar]

somewhere a John Romero laughs atop his piles of facebook monies

[JaseC]

Maybe I need to try it out on PC somehow, because the PS3 demo felt like shit to me. I thought the shooting wasn't very good.

The gunplay is excellent on the PC. Shotgun + wingsticks = heaven.

[Poimandres]

This. Nearly all of id's "games" have been glorified tech demos anyway.

Yeah, sure. Wolf 3D, Commander Keen series, Doom 1 & 2, and Quake 1, 2 & 3 are all celebrated because they had good graphics, not because they were awesome "games".

You're right, they barely were "games". I can't believe I've never seen it this way before, what a fool I was for enjoying these glorified tech demos!

[ZombieSupaStar]

Yeah, sure. Wolf 3D, Commander Keen series, Doom 1 & 2, and Quake 1, 2 & 3 are all celebrated because they had good graphics, not because they were awesome "games". You're right, they barely were "games". I can't believe I've never seen it this way before, what a fool I was for enjoying these glorified tech demos!

id was the beatles, once the original fab 4 (hall, romero, carmack, a.carmack) split, the honeymoon was over.


basically everything after quake 1. 3 gets a pass for being an excellent tight multiplayer shooter, even though I was a UT99 fanboy at that time.

in hindsight it seems the road into doom 3 and the aftermath, really solidified that.

[RockAction]

Interesting, looks very Rage-like, even for being the same engine, it looks very similar, i imagine they're going for different gameplay to Doom 3 or Rage otherwise it might look too much like Rage to be its own thing

I'm looking forward to Doom 4, i actually really enjoyed Doom 3 and obviously the first two, not sure if using the first two as a basis could work in the contemporary market, but it'll be interesting to see what they come up with

Must admit this whole thing reeks of PR, rumour of cancellation and supposed, and probably likely, leaked screens. We'll probably hear more about it soon, guess they were just bumping it to keep it in peoples minds

Something valve doesn't have to worry about with their flagship FPS - but would be greatly appreciated if they did

[dr_rus]

Am I the only one who wants them to do a retro doom1/2 style download game for PSN/XBLA? same sprite based technology and stuff. Sorta like how megaman10 did it.

Do you have some kind of a computer around? If yes then fulfill your wishes.

[maus]

Thing I really want Doom 4 to NOT have: ADS (fuck this shit seriously I want to see my goddamn guns) Sprint button 2 weapon limit Regenerating health Slow walk speed Please ID

it's gonna have all of these things

[Zeliard]

Part of this is actually design-for-consoles as well. As long as we're still relegated to dual-analog pads the level design will reflect it. The analog stick is a lot more difficult to stabilize vertically than it is horizontally, and autoaim algorithms are designed even to compensate for horizontal judder.

Absolutely.

The limitations indeed were why you got levels like we did in Doom 1 & 2. Realistic levels would have been atrocious, you couldn't flesh them out. So you go the other way, get rid of real and just make it a game. We still have limitations, but they hit at a far higher point then back then.. and one of the biggest is the cost of just producing all that unique art. It all takes time.. making that extra path in Doom, not that much.. you were reusing assets.. making that path today and making it unique? That's time and money. How many branching paths can you make to still give the illusion of choice, but without costing a fortune? That's the choice now. I don't see that going away though.

That's what I'm getting at though; at what point should a line be drawn there? If you're sacrificing memorable level design to tick some extra visual boxes, I think that's the wrong approach.

There is a proper compromise to be found there but with the way many current games are, there's such a powerful drive for visuals, and a large part of that is due to the marketing. Games have to look good in still pics. Just look at the devs who choose to go for 30 FPS instead of 60 on consoles to add whatever visual elements - it's almost all of them.

When visuals get in the way of crisp, responsive gameplay and strong level design, among other things, there's a problem. Yet it's the trend, and while some games today may look visually more impressive if only due to much better graphical technology, dare I say they've lost some of their soul. :P

[Shadow Hog]

Do you have some kind of a computer around? If yes then fulfill your wishes.

I'm pretty sure he means an entirely new game, not just a source port.

Besides, I'm more partial to GZDoom, myself.

[Satchel]

So what if Doom 2 was set on earth?

It sure as shit didn't look like it, and it sure as shit didn't feel like it.

Arguing over technicalities is pointless. After Rage, I have faith id know what they're doing, but those screens concern me greatly.

[TheVampire]

Pretty dissapointed with those pictures.

Needs to be more dark and redish like it needs some fxaa filter over the top of it.

[dr_rus]

I'm pretty sure he means an entirely new game, not just a source port.

What's the point of doing an entirely new game in the same style and technology (sprites? riiiight) as a 25 year old product? If you just have a moment of nostalgia -- play Doom! It runs perfectly fine on modern computers with the help of source ports.

[Nemo]

Lmao @ that Half Life 2 pic

[Poimandres]

id was the beatles, once the original fab 4 (hall, romero, carmack, a.carmack) split, the honeymoon was over. basically everything after quake 1. 3 gets a pass for being an excellent tight multiplayer shooter, even though I was a UT99 fanboy at that time. in hindsight it seems the road into doom 3 and the aftermath, really solidified that.

I don't necessarily agree with your view, because strangely enough Quake 2 was my favourite multiplayer, but I agree that Romero really added something especially to the level design.

At least your opinion seems a lot more grounded than "most id games are glorified tech demos".

[MultiCore]

Man, I think those screens look great, even if they don't evoke the old doom the way we remember it. Of course, I also liked Rage, so I hope they're going through production with *something*.

[Tucah]

Thing I really want Doom 4 to NOT have: ADS (fuck this shit seriously I want to see my goddamn guns) Sprint button 2 weapon limit Regenerating health Slow walk speed Please ID

Wonderful post. There are a ton of FPS series that do those modern additions to the genre right but from a modern Doom game, I want something that feels like old Doom placed in a more modern package. There is a time and place for things like weapon limits and regenerating health, but Doom 4 is not that place.

Of course, I fully expect D4 to have every single one of those things.

[DarkChild]

More at

http://www.dsogaming.com/news/the-le...ames-identity/

[specialguy]

The graphics are a curious mix. Some of the indoor ones look quite promising visually, while the outdoor ones are somewhat underwhelming. Megatexture has an odd "fake" look, like Rage, and I really dont care for it. The outdoor shots do look a lot like Rage.

I was hoping this would be this generation's last gasp at raising the bar visually, so I think these shots kinda kill that dream. In motion and with you know, months more work I can imagine it looking very good, but it doesn't seem like it would blow you away, which is what I was hoping for.