[LunaticHigh]

Huh? They are promoting a product through the use of their physical features, but I don't see how it's remotely the same as making light of a serous issue like sexual harassment.

I'm not talking about that, and using women's sexuality as a tool to control men is a very big issue too. But I'm specifically talking about the SRK article using the commentators comment about the NOS girls as proof that they are unacceptable to be commentators.

[FunkyMunkey]

Huh? They are promoting a product through the use of their physical features, but I don't see how it's remotely the same as making light of a serous issue like sexual harassment.

It's not even close. My brain was like "... what?".

[macuser1of5]

yipes will be fine, though he would probably be wise to not say nigga or bitch for a bit of time. but that isn't why people like watching him.

[LunaticHigh]

It's not even close. My brain was like "... what?".

Again, misunderstanding.

I'm specifically talking about the SRK article and it's reference to the commentators comments on the nos girls. I believe one of them said "I'd hit the left one" or something like that. My point is that both the commentator and the NOS Girls/Nos are at fault for that. The commentator because it's obviously unacceptable to say that on stream, but also NOS/ Nos girls because the entire purpose of them is to use that exact reaction in men as a way to promote a product. I'm disappointed that we still allow that kind of promotion, I am in no way making ties to the sexual harassment thing.

[Satch]

the nos girls are partially to blame

what

[PsychoSoldier]

I'm not talking about that, and using women's sexuality as a tool to control men is a very big issue too. But I'm specifically talking about the SRK article using the commentators comment about the NOS girls as proof that they are unacceptable to be commentators.

Well, I think the quote you're talking about is this:

"So, just a day after one of the biggest scandals to hit the scene, we have guest commentators from one of our most respected groups poking fun at the whole situation and talking about what NOS girl they would hit. "

I think "the whole situation", referencing the sexual harassment scandal that just hit, is the important bit of what they're saying there. I think that the other part about the NOS girls just makes the first part seem grimier and in worse taste.

[vulva]

for better or worse, I just sent an email to the writer who had the article up on kotaku asking to "help find good things to say about fighting gamers". I'm sure it was a waste of my time, but can't hurt to try mentioning it.


@Lyphen. Name one community or organization that hasn't dealt with issues of sexism, intolerance or other similar issues please. You're right, the things I mentioned should be expected, but lets not pretend that members of the LGBT community are still completely accepted or welcomed in mainstream media. The reality is that focusing on negativity may provide an opportunity to improve on those faults, but there's something to be said for also celebrating the positives.

[macuser1of5]

Again, misunderstanding. I'm specifically talking about the SRK article and it's reference to the commentators comments on the nos girls. I believe one of them said "I'd hit the left one" or something like that. My point is that both the commentator and the NOS Girls/Nos are at fault for that. The commentator because it's obviously unacceptable to say that on stream, but also NOS/ Nos girls because the entire purpose of them is to use that exact reaction in men as a way to promote a product. I'm disappointed that we still allow that kind of promotion, I am in no way making ties to the sexual harassment thing.

Dude, the reason the NOS comments were brought into the frame of discussion is not because the behavior is in itself on the level of what happened with Aris (though "i'd hit that one" it is pretty tactless just the same), but because it further demonstrated that the people making these comments, well aware of the shitstorm going on, had zero self-awareness.

[LunaticHigh]

Yeah, I guess it's specifically the youtube video that made me upset. It's just like booth girls to me, I find it degrading to women and I dislike that companies still use that as a marketing tactic. I was just disappointed that SRK didn't make any comments about the fact that the nos girls were on the stream in the first place. That had nothing to do with the people who were commentating at that time. I don't feel the blame for that particular event should fall only on them.

[Lyphen]

@Lyphen. Name one community or organization that hasn't dealt with issues of sexism, intolerance or other similar issues please. You're right, the things I mentioned should be expected, but lets not pretend that members of the LGBT community are still completely accepted or welcomed in mainstream media. The reality is that focusing on negativity may provide an opportunity to improve on those faults, but there's something to be said for also celebrating the positives.

Well, the first part isn't relevant, so I'm not going to address it.
Second, yes, it's a wonderful thing, and applauding it is completely fine. But after Aris, what is needed is change and a little management. inkblot's first post on SRK, I thought, was complete garbage because all he was doing was focusing up the community's highlights. Great PR, and it worked on some (djWHEAT), but that's not what the issue really needs to be right now. What will turn around the (probably misconceived) opinions people have about the FGC is making sure that the attitude of its members reflect the fact that they have a varied audience in the hundreds of thousands, and downright abusive stuff is no longer appropriate.

[QisTopTier]

Lyphen how do you feel about Sherry shaking her ass on cam and sharing belly shots to the cam with aris on cross assault?

[Warpticon]

Aris' statement didn't even mean that. -.- The big dumbass just put it in the worst words possible.

I'm going to try to do something I probably shouldn't and speak for Aris somewhat. I'm not Aris, and I don't know him personally, but I've followed his site, podcast, streams, and twitter enough that I feel I have an idea of where he comes from.

When he said that sexual harassment is endemic to the community, it's really hard to spin that in anything remotely close to a reasonable way. I was taken aback when I heard it. with some time to reflect and remember other things he's said, though, I feel that what he was actually trying to say was that shit talk is always going to be a part of things, and that women shouldn't be absolved of it just because they're women. He believes that some degree of hostility breeds better players who can handle pressure, and he feels the scene has gotten soft to some degree.

(incidentally, I completely disagree with this viewpoint, and I don't have to look any further than Japan to see evidence otherwise. Japan still has the highest per capita concentration of strong players in the world, and arcades there are, for the most part, almost nonconfrontation to the point of being isolationist. Most of the time, the most offensive thing coming out of anyone's mouth is cigarette smoke, yet their players are stronger than ours on average. I do agree that trying to sanitize any competitive environment of shit talk is both detrimental and futile, but there's nothing stopping people from popping off without venturing into outrageous territory.)

He messed up big time, but I think he's still a decent guy, and I'm sure he's learned his lesson. I am in no way endorsing his actions, but I want to separate his actions from him as an individual. I know he feels awful about it all.

[Lyphen]

Lyphen how do you feel about Sherry shaking her ass on cam and sharing belly shots to the cam with aris on cross assault?

I don't really know. Maybe Capcom thought that, like having Aris hand picked and put as a leader of a team or letting the cast and chat sexually harass someone for an extended period, shaking their stuff on cam was MARKETING GOLD.

Personally, if I had money on it, I probably wouldn't have let it fly. That kind of stuff is perfect fine off stage fooling at events around though.

Edit: Like, for example, the hotel games at EVO. I remember watching a youtube vid where they were just messing around and yelling at the early hours over a New Super Mario Bros. Wii game. That was great stuff.

[PsychoSoldier]

Lyphen how do you feel about Sherry shaking her ass on cam and sharing belly shots to the cam with aris on cross assault?

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? She seemed to do both those things voluntarily and hell, even happily.

Sherry being okay with showing off in that way has nothing to do with harassment which was obviously not welcome.

She got yanked out of the room pretty fast when she did the ass-shaking though, right?

[notworksafe]

I don't really know. Maybe Capcom thought that, like having Aris hand picked and put as a leader of a team or letting the cast and chat sexually harass someone for an extended period, shaking their stuff on cam was MARKETING GOLD. Personally, if I had money on it, I probably wouldn't have let it fly. That kind of stuff is perfect fine off stage fooling at events around though.

FWIW it was stopped pretty quickly, one assumes by Capcom.

[Seraphinianus]

Give us some credit, no blindfolds here. Point being, that kind of stuff, while great, is also what should be expected. What outsiders like myself want is an end of the vocally prevalent insular mentality, and a better reflection and representation of what goes on in the FGC (so if the sexism and offensive shit isn't a defining feature, stop showcasing it). Sp00ky's (no more mic for the offenders) and inkblot's (slightly harsh) changes work towards that.

You call yourself an outsider...so, I suggest you do a little research before posting this kind of tripe. Your demands are ambiguous in the context of average daily FGC business. Sexism and offensive shit have never been a "defining feature." If you read Aris' comments and still believe 100% that sexism and racism are part of the culture, then I'm sorry, that was a few days ago and you're behind the curve. You've been posting a lot in this thread, so it's not like you haven't had time to research.

It's really not constructive at this point to make blanket statements. A lot of criticisms and calls for action have been made in this thread, but not a lot of specific suggestions.

The only good suggestion from someone I've heard so far was on that twitch.tv show last night-- djwheat said people should be more organized in addressing these kinds of blanket statements by the media that are perpetuating nasty stereotypes...something that says "we're not actually about that." I'm not sure whose responsibility that is exactly. Aris apologized twice on his twitter...most of the prominent members of the community are on their way to Final Round. Maybe some people will do something when they get back, maybe they won't say anything ever, I don't know.

[Neato_Jinkins]

watching goons experience accountability for the first time (inside this thread and on various streams) is pretty entertaining

more entertaining than most fighting game streams, i'd say

[AAK]

Damn, just caught the shoryuken article about the WNF commentary...

Here I was thinking this wouldn't affect the FGC. Sure proved me wrong. Oh well, hopelly some benefit comes from this introducing more people into the scene.

[Seraphinianus]

watching goons experience accountability for the first time (inside this thread and on various streams) is pretty entertaining more entertaining than most fighting game streams, i'd say

wow, we're allowed to post like this now? i've been away for too long.

[Lyphen]

You're quoting me, but it really doesn't feel like you're replying to me or what I've said in this thread. I'll let whoever you're talking to take care of that.

[ThatCrazyGuy]

I'm going to try to do something I probably shouldn't and speak for Aris somewhat. I'm not Aris, and I don't know him personally, but I've followed his site, podcast, streams, and twitter enough that I feel I have an idea of where he comes from. When he said that sexual harassment is endemic to the community, it's really hard to spin that in anything remotely close to a reasonable way. I was taken aback when I heard it. with some time to reflect and remember other things he's said, though, I feel that what he was actually trying to say was that shit talk is always going to be a part of things, and that women shouldn't be absolved of it just because they're women. He believes that some degree of hostility breeds better players who can handle pressure, and he feels the scene has gotten soft to some degree. (incidentally, I completely disagree with this viewpoint, and I don't have to look any further than Japan to see evidence otherwise. Japan still has the highest per capita concentration of strong players in the world, and arcades there are, for the most part, almost nonconfrontation to the point of being isolationist. Most of the time, the most offensive thing coming out of anyone's mouth is cigarette smoke, yet their players are stronger than ours on average. I do agree that trying to sanitize any competitive environment of shit talk is both detrimental and futile, but there's nothing stopping people from popping off without venturing into outrageous territory.) He messed up big time, but I think he's still a decent guy, and I'm sure he's learned his lesson. I am in no way endorsing his actions, but I want to separate his actions from him as an individual. I know he feels awful about it all.

BTW, I agree with your thought about what makes players strong, and it's not the hostility thing Aris is talking about (I think his conclusion is wrong in some degree, but not fully).

I think player density in an area and the play format of the arcade produces strong players, where people are forced to take turns and and think about why they loss while they sit there and stew about their loss, and have to pay for your next game.

I look at it like this. When are you more serious, when you player poker with money on each hand? Or just screwing around.

I don't think being hostile has to do anything with it really. I mean, were players more hostile at Southern Hills Golfland than out Wisconsin? I think there was the same number of loud mouths everywhere.

I think there happened to be more good players concentrated in a smaller area, and the their ego and drive to win and be competitive made them better, not because somebody was talking shit and being hostile to them (though maybe a played a small part).

Of course people want to shut the loud mouths up, and winning does that too.

I just don't think the player hostility is the main thing. There are hostile people everywhere in the arcades back then, and the true greats came from certain areas.

[Judderman]

wow, we're allowed to post like this now? i've been away for too long.

It's Neato_Jinkins. He's been posting like that for most of the thread. I'm amazed he's not banned.

[Neato_Jinkins]

oh please, do you really not see how reactionary you're all being? you don't see what an insufferable crybaby imbecile this marn guy is?

the level of hero worship that goes around for these genuinely gross human beings is laughable.

[Masaki_]

watching goons experience accountability for the first time (inside this thread and on various streams) is pretty entertaining more entertaining than most fighting game streams, i'd say

You should write for Kotaku.

[JudgeN]

oh please, do you really not see how reactionary you're all being? you don't see what an insufferable crybaby imbecile this marn guy is? the level of hero worship that goes around for these genuinely gross human beings is laughable.

No one thinks Marn is a hero, the community is well aware that he is a douche.

[Huw_Dawson]

Somebody really needs to come up with a "screw you Kotaku" video for streamers to play in response.

Kotaku are hacks who are happy to do every idiotic, braindead article they can muster to ensure links. They'll happily spread misinformation to get an ad view.

The only person who should be getting slapped around is Aris. Leave the FGC alone. The best way to combat what is now turning into a horrendous overreaction is to follow gut instinct and stand as one over the issue.

EDIT: Kotaku are using the term "bitchin'" on a front page article right now. Just one example of how daft this overreaction is. Go search their archives for examples of the sort of articles you can call them out on. They're not squeaky clean.

[Neato_Jinkins]

No one thinks Marn is a hero, the communities is well aware that he is a douche.

oh. well disregard that then.

point remains, the self-pity in this thread is suffocating.

[alstein]

Or how about other "minorities" so to speak, like broly legs. The heavily handicapped Chun player from Texas who's been embraced and supported heavily. It seems like the community has plenty of diversity, but that doesn't matter because a few made crude/inappropriate comments recently.

Just because a community is enlightened in some areas doesn't give it a free pass in the areas it isn't.

Personally, I don't know if this will be profitable for the community in the end, but I'm glad we're trying to expand the base. Without more people joining in, the community will shrink in on itself.

[Druz]

This post is too real. +1 respect

Yeah them non-fans have no authority to tell us fans what sexual harassment is, they just don't know how it is in the 'cades round here.

[Satch]

Somebody really needs to come up with a "screw you Kotaku" video for streamers to play in response. Kotaku are hacks who are happy to do every idiotic, braindead article they can muster to ensure links. They'll happily spread misinformation to get an ad view. The only person who should be getting slapped around is Aris. Leave the FGC alone.

The video spoke for itself. :/

You sound absolutely ridiculous and paranoid.

[Firemind]

Somebody really needs to come up with a "screw you Kotaku" video for streamers to play in response. Kotaku are hacks who are happy to do every idiotic, braindead article they can muster to ensure links. They'll happily spread misinformation to get an ad view. The only person who should be getting slapped around is Aris. Leave the FGC alone.

Classy.

[Masaki_]

Yeah them non-fans have no authority to tell us fans what sexual harassment is, they just don't know how it is in the 'cades round here.

Another strawman worthy of Kotaku. Stay classy.

[MScoutsDCI]

It's Neato_Jinkins. He's been posting like that for most of the thread. I'm amazed he's not banned.

He's also one of the few people actually making sense in this thread. If most of you could step back and observe with a bit of tact, you'd agree.

[K.Sabot]

He's also one of the few people actually making sense in this thread. If most of you could step back and observe with a bit of tact, you'd agree.

*cough*

[Druz]

Another strawman worthy of Kotaku. Stay classy.

Neato has been dismantling your collective posts in 2 sentence responses, you point and tell us we're kotaku. Stay classy

[MScoutsDCI]

*cough*

you're excused.

[Chavelo]

He's also one of the few people actually making sense in this thread. If most of you could step back and observe with a bit of tact, you'd agree.

Yeeeeeeeep.

Neato_Jinkins
Banned
(Today, 07:12 PM)

/whistles

Oh, there's a cough! Coughs are cool.

[Firemind]

He's also one of the few people actually making sense in this thread. If most of you could step back and observe with a bit of tact, you'd agree.

The amount of ad hominem arguments is baffling.

[FartOfWar]

wow, we're allowed to post like this now? i've been away for too long.

How is it out of line? Assuming he means Marn's stream, isn't that absolutely on topic? I'm watching this one http://www.twitch.tv/marnorz/b/310289554 at the moment, and it's sobering to see how impossibly stupid he is. I can't argue that he's willfully ignorant in his self-pity party, as it's clear that he -- like so many who have posted in this thread -- is incapable of understanding the line that Aris crossed, unable to see how vulgarity isn't the issue, and that nobody is asking for pointless politically correct bowdlerizing of fighting game commentary. If he was ten nobody would begrudge him for forcing them to explain what adults know, but he's not. Instead he's an uneducated buffoon who has apparently passed into some semblance of adulthood without working, without socializing outside of an insular clique as small as it is small-minded. (That clique being his friends, not the larger "community.")

[MScoutsDCI]

Neato has been dismantling your collective posts in 2 sentence responses, you point and tell us we're kotaku. Stay classy

This whole thread is just pure gold man, I've just been reading and laughing for two days now.

[Chavelo]

Oh, btw... There's this:

http://jaredrea.tumblr.com/post/1853...m-a-gay-racist

Commence the Jared hate... I guess?

[obonicus]

Marn is unique in his social dysfunction, though. His circle of friends is far more well-adjusted.

[MScoutsDCI]

Yeeeeeeeep. Neato_Jinkins Banned (Today, 07:12 PM) /whistles Oh, there's a cough! Coughs are cool.

Nice, banning people who speak truths you're uncomfortable with. Classy.

[PsychoSoldier]

Nice, banning people who speak truths you're uncomfortable with. Classy.

I think it's because he actually insulted someone. Shit don't fly here.

[Lost Fragment]

Nice, banning people who speak truths you're uncomfortable with. Classy.

I presume it's less about his opinions, and more about him being a total dick unnecessarily.

[Jintor]

If he spoke truths, he spoke them couched in the language of an abusive, provocative firebrand.

[duckroll]

He's also one of the few people actually making sense in this thread. If most of you could step back and observe with a bit of tact, you'd agree.

Having a valid point does not give anyone a free pass to use personal insults and post shit to further stir shit up on purpose.

Neato has been dismantling your collective posts in 2 sentence responses, you point and tell us we're kotaku. Stay classy

Don't worry, this thread is now much classier now that the guy saying shit like "fucking cretin" is banned. You're welcome.

[Chavelo]

Nice, banning people who speak truths you're uncomfortable with. Classy.

There's a difference between having discussions with people and...

You fucking cretin.

Classy. :3

[obonicus]

Nice, banning people who speak truths you're uncomfortable with. Classy.

Honestly, he should have copped a ban with the 'cretins' comment. It was a personal attack and those are not okay on GAF.

[FartOfWar]

Yeah them non-fans have no authority to tell us fans what sexual harassment is, they just don't know how it is in the 'cades round here.

I expect to see you banned a few moments before me, but no doubt. Meanwhile, instead of controversy chasers, we're fellow fighting game enthusiasts who've been so since the genre's birth. We don't watch every stream of every pissant session but we tune in for EVO. We're pretty much the people they can convert into an audience.