[Kadey]

I can't believe it's making me laugh as hard as I am right now xD

Ewwwww.

[PsychoSoldier]

the dick in that picture is not subtle at all hahah

I didn't even see it until you mentioned it. I guess you're better at dickspotting than me. Kappa

[Riposte]

Fixed!

Leave Arturo and Ultradavid lovechild from the future out of this.

[Ogrekiller]

What "prevents them from playing" is their utter aversion to the ridiculous way women are portrayed in the major AAA titles. They want to play games, and do play more innocuous, inoffensive games like Peggle but most would refuse to refer to themselves as "gamers" because they rightly perceive the general industry and community as unwelcoming to them.

Get with the times. Major AAA titles are not indicative of the industry anymore. Mobile gaming has grown to the point where people can say "I play that farmville game" without fear of ridicule.

If they don't that's because the gaming industry is like the so called FGC: unwilling to change.

[Jintor]

I'm completely confused about what you're saying Ogrekiller. Now some of this is on my part because it's the end of a work day and I'm getting tired, but I'm really not entirely sure what you're arguing about anymore. Could you lay it out for me?

[Kifftopher]

Why? The best selling games have historically appealed to both genders. Games like super mario bros, pacman, and tetris appealed to both genders However, it is only recently the trend has moved towards games that specifically targeted males. However there has been a shift in the marketing and and production of games tailored towards a specific gender. Games such as GTA and COD are all anyone can think of when people name games nowadays. Which is a specific marketing shift towards men in general. And sex sells. Whether you like it or not, it does. That is the truth.

You keep making my point for me but still not getting it. That's the whole point, I DON'T like it. It ISN'T necessary to make great games. It only reduces the possible audience to mostly males, and has perpetuated the stigma women have towards games. Games like Tetris and Mario used to be fun for everyone.

[Threi]

I can agree that games in general are primarily designed to appeal to 25-40 white males.

Interesting tangent though, curious to see where it goes.

[Foxtastical]

Why? The best selling games have historically appealed to both genders. Games like super mario bros, pacman, and tetris appealed to both genders However, it is only recently the trend has moved towards games that specifically targeted males. However there has been a shift in the marketing and and production of games tailored towards a specific gender. Games such as GTA and COD are all anyone can think of when people name games nowadays. Which is a specific marketing shift towards men in general. And sex sells. Whether you like it or not, it does. That is the truth.

The fact that you're saying that is making me tell you to read some historical work on video gaming. After the crash of Atari in 1983 and Nintendo's emergence, the industry, for various social and economic reasons, becomes gendered as masculine. Arcades of the late 1970s and early 80s were also gendered as masculine pursuits as well.

Also.

The best selling games have historically appealed to both genders. And sex sells. Whether you like it or not, it does. That is the truth.

What are you talking about? Sex sells, but the best selling games appeal to a large gender neutral audience?

[Ogrekiller]

I'm completely confused about what you're saying Ogrekiller. Now some of this is on my part because it's the end of a work day and I'm getting tired, but I'm really not entirely sure what you're arguing about anymore. Could you lay it out for me?

He's trying to say that gaming has this deep undercurrent of sexism, and that women are not treated equally and as sex objects and so forth.

So I say that society is more sexist than the gaming community, and what women experience in the GC is but a fraction of what they go through in the real world, to prove to him that things are not as bad as they seem.

He then says that women don't play games due to the poor portrayal of women, that player and developer gender ratios are a sign of sexism.

I say that that is because of marketing and perception, that many games are gender neutral, that more women are playing games than ever before.

And here we are I guess.

[Ogrekiller]

The fact that you're saying that is making me tell you to read some historical work on video gaming. After the crash of Atari in 1983 and Nintendo's emergence, the industry, for various social and economic reasons, becomes gendered as masculine. Arcades of the late 1970s and early 80s were also gendered as masculine pursuits as well. Also. What are you talking about? Sex sells, but the best selling games appeal to a large gender neutral audience?

Yes. Marketing has shown that Advertising is sexist, and publishers feel that to appeal to a greater audience that they have to promote the game via sex. However, it has been shown that the best selling games appeal to a gender neutral audience.

[Kifftopher]

He's trying to say that gaming has this deep undercurrent of sexism, and that women are not treated equally and as sex objects and so forth. So I say that society is more sexist than the gaming community, and what women experience in the GC is but a fraction of what they go through in the real world, to prove to him that things are not as bad as they seem. He then says that women don't play games due to the poor portrayal of women, that player and developer gender ratios are a sign of sexism. I say that that is because of marketing and perception, that many games are gender neutral, that more women are playing games than ever before. And here we are I guess.

You're still going with the "there are worse things than what's happening in gaming so stop complaining" argument? I could tell you there are better things to do with your time than play video games so stop playing them.

[Ogrekiller]

You're still going with the "there are worse things than what's happening in gaming so stop complaining" argument? I could tell you there are better things to do with your time than play video games so stop playing them.

And you can stop complaining about the state of the industry and change it instead of arguing with me I guess.

[macuser1of5]

I didn't even see it until you mentioned it. I guess you're better at dickspotting than me. Kappa

Well my dick is proportionally similar so you can't blame me for noticing!

kappa

[Riposte]

I can agree that games in general are primarily designed to appeal to 25-40 white males.

Is this a question about mechanics or aesthetics?

In theory mechanics should be gender neutral (appeal equally, right?), but the most dedicated enthusiasts (nerds who are really, really good at videogames) that we can observe through competition are overwhelmingly male across the board (FGC, Starcraft, other RTS, war games, STGs, FPS/TPS, TCG, etc etc, Maybe the speed-run community applies here, but wouldn't know one way or the other). This seems to become less true (even within a single game) as games/environments become more accessible/simpler/less competitive with examples like the Wii boom, social games, and iOs gaming being rather gender neutral. What does one make of that? Will that change if you adjust character models?

[Kifftopher]

And you can stop complaining about the state of the industry and change it instead of arguing with me I guess.

We finally agree on something!

[Kifftopher]

Is this a question about mechanics or aesthetics? In theory mechanics should be gender neutral (appeal equally, right?)

Great works of art appeal to both genders aesthetically. Great games can have aesthetics AND mechanics that appeal to both genders.

This has gone way off topic.

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

I've been looking through the last few pages of this thread and I can't seem to find information on this.

What exactly happened to Marn? I've read that some vague posts about him in the last few pages but nothing specifically about what happened to him.

[LunaticHigh]

Why? The best selling games have historically appealed to both genders. Games like super mario bros, pacman, and tetris appealed to both genders However, it is only recently the trend has moved towards games that specifically targeted males. However there has been a shift in the marketing and and production of games tailored towards a specific gender. Games such as GTA and COD are all anyone can think of when people name games nowadays. Which is a specific marketing shift towards men in general. And sex sells. Whether you like it or not, it does. That is the truth.

a game like super mario, where the only female is constantly helpless to do anything on her own definitely is a strong point for your argument. The rest are definitely worth mentioning though.

[QisTopTier]

Ewwwww.

Oh uhhh.... >.>

*runs away*

[Riposte]

Great works of art appeal to both genders aesthetically. Great games can have aesthetics AND mechanics that appeal to both genders. This has gone way off topic.

I'm looking at more than "there are girls who like this". I'm gauging the difference between males and females in both sheer numbers and degree of dedication put into games (measured by competitive scenes and also contrasting games with competitive scenes against games which are shallow).

I agree it can be considered off-topic. I would make a topic about it, but I'm pretty sure it would be viewed as an attack on women (especially with knee-jerk posting which is what reading the OP and replying is all about) and make for a very ugly thread altogether.

What exactly happened to Marn? I've read that some vague posts about him in the last few pages but nothing specifically about what happened to him.

If you know Marn then you basically know half of the story. Marn was Marn.

What ended up happening which is new is that he is now banned from speaking on the mic at The Next Level events.

[Kifftopher]

I'm looking at more than "there are girls who like this". I'm gauging the difference between males and females when it both sheer numbers and degree of dedication put into games (measured by competitive scenes). I agree it can considered off-topic. I would make a topic about it, but I'm pretty sure it would be viewed as an attack on women and make for a very ugly thread altogether.

I wasn't saying you had specifically taken it off topic, I was observing that Ogre and I had completely derailed the thread.

[enzo_gt]

Marn is banned from the mic at Level | Up and presumably all of Keits events (UFGT8 for example), not Next Level.

Isn't a big deal. Marn is a terrible commentator and not a very amusing troll either. Nobody really cares if he is banned from the mic.

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Yeah, I think I just found a youtube video showing what he did.

Can't say it was the best idea to say what he said.

[OpinionatedCyborg]

I think the people (including Miranda) brushing this off as one aberrant example of inappropriate behaviour prevent us from recognizing how prevailent these attitudes towards women are, both within and beyond the FGC. Hopefully, this incident will cause some people to reflect on their own attitudes and make adjustments.

also, I really hate the acronym FGC and look back fondly at the time when I did not know it existed.

[Riposte]

Wow I'm dumb for saying The Next Level lol.

I think the people (including Miranda) brushing this off as one aberrant example of inappropriate behaviour prevent us from recognizing how prevailent these attitudes towards women are, both within and beyond the FGC. Hopefully, this incident will cause some people to reflect on their own attitudes and make adjustments. also, I really hate the acronym FGC and look back fondly at the time when I did not know it existed.

Start a thread about Smash Bros, poverty games, and SF vs MK/Tekken/KoF/etc all at once and the FGC disappears.

[PsychoSoldier]

Well, the other part of the Marn story is that his idiocy cost WNF EVO Points and SRK sponsorship.

I think the other dude was mainly just laughing at the joke.

Edit: I don't think we're in danger of people totally brushing this off as it just being about one person, especially after what Inkblot wrote this afternoon. Plus, if you go look at her Twitter you see some people (presumably people in the community) saying some downright nasty things to her that she's responded to. She may not believe that the community as a whole is to blame for what happened, but she clearly knows there are more bad apples than just Aris.

[Stabby McSter]

Well, the other part of the Marn story is that his idiocy cost WNF EVO Points and SRK sponsorship. I think the other dude was mainly just laughing at the joke.

wait whaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttt

I stopped following this story so closely since Cross Assault ended, and since I have a midterm next week. :(

[PsychoSoldier]

wait whaaaaaaaaaaaatttttttt I stopped following this story so closely since Cross Assault ended, and since I have a midterm next week. :(

Yep. Inkblot's whole thing here:

http://shoryuken.com/2012/03/01/hurt...in-the-mirror/

[Threi]

Valle must be REALLY pissed off.

man that dude got shafted the hardest out of anyone. Gotta feel for him.

[sleepykyo]

Valle must be REALLY pissed off. man that dude got shafted the hardest out of anyone. Gotta feel for him.

On the plus side the WNF seasons only last a month or so. Assuming nothing else happens for the next few weeks, SRK might go back to supporting WNF.

[Anth0ny]

Valle must be REALLY pissed off. man that dude got shafted the hardest out of anyone. Gotta feel for him.

Definitely. Also, consider how well he was holding things down on the Street Fighter side of the show. He came off like a true leader of the community.

[biosnake20]

I love this picture, btw

Glad you like it lol.

[PsychoSoldier]

Valle must be REALLY pissed off. man that dude got shafted the hardest out of anyone. Gotta feel for him.

WNF will still be good just thanks to the amount of good players who live in the area, plus the people who want to play with/against them.

I do feel for Valle, but this punishment for a relatively mild offense shows how serious they are about this shit now, which is a pretty damn good deterrent for people who want to be idiots on stream.

[Edgeward]

Definitely. Also, consider how well he was holding things down on the Street Fighter side of the show. He came off like a true leader of the community.

Yup, wasn't gonna re-up my sub because I usually dont watch enough to justify it since they go way too late into the night but will now because I want to keep supporting them.

[Ogrekiller]

We finally agree on something!

We agree on nothing.

Your opinion:

Unfortunately, my perception is that the gaming community is more sexist than society as a whole.

is unfortunate and naive.

[Kifftopher]

We agree on nothing. Your opinion: is unfortunate and naive.

You've given me no reason to value your judgement. I can't imagine caring much less about your opinion of me.

[Ogrekiller]

You've given me no reason to value your judgement. I can't imagine caring much less about your opinion of me.

Likewise. Finally something we actually agree on.

[QisTopTier]

http://kotaku.com/5889869/coach-not-...fighting-games

The fighter inside the controversy that stirred allegations of sexism and misogyny in fighting video games says that its community, fans and star performers do not deserve the collective blame they have endured, and vows that she will not leave her sport despite the alienating remarks of the man who once coached her. Miranda Pakozdi, who apparently forfeited a match in protest during the Web-broadcast "Cross Assault" competition, singled out her Tekken team coach Aris Bakhtanians for blame in starting a bitter two-day conflict that has roiled passions among fighting game fans and professional contestants in reports by the specialty press. Moreover, Pakozdi condemned media reports—including Kotaku's by name—that seemed to blame the fighting game culture at large for the ugly incident and the uncomfortable discussion of it. "The fact is one person, with the assistance of a few stream monsters, brought me to my breaking point," said Pakozi, in extended remarks published via Twitter late Thursday. "Maybe some people (like the people who wrote the @Kotaku article) don't understand that it was just one person who did this to me. I understand it looks like this is the FGC [fighting game community's] fault, I felt that way too until I got home and had a couple days to process everything that happened. "I was so appalled at what Aris said on the 5th night that I could not stop crying, the next day I made the decision to leave because of it," Pakozdi said. "But that night, and every minute since then, I've received hundreds of comments/tweets from people both in and out of the [fighting game community] supporting me. Those people outnumber Aris like 200-1." At bottom, "the only people who could make me feel part of the FGC again was the FGC," Pakozdi said. "All the support made me realize that only one person has wronged me, not the entire FGC." Bakhtanians—her team's coach—"doesn't represent the entire community," Pakozdi said. "I'm not ever leaving. See you at NCR." NCR is the Northern California Regionals, one of the premier fighting video game tournaments in North America. It will be held March 24-25.

I gotta admit the people trying to spin what she says for the sake of their argument in a few places *mostly comments and such* REALLY PISS ME THE FUCK OFF. *cough* ahem. At the least they didn't pull an asshole move and not put this up or the other more positive articles up. If you are gonna report one side of the coin only... that's just weak. They didn't thankfully.

[Spirit of Jazz]

WNF will still be good just thanks to the amount of good players who live in the area, plus the people who want to play with/against them. I do feel for Valle, but this punishment for a relatively mild offense shows how serious they are about this shit now, which is a pretty damn good deterrent for people who want to be idiots on stream.

To me it just seems overly harsh given the lack of punishment for IPW/TS (who I'm assuming will be streaming EVO again if they manage to keep things under control) despite them being at the centre of the issue, and despite Haunt's siding this Aris when shit went down. I love Spooky & Haunts but it really strikes me as a very unjust move.

Hell Capcom are the people who chose well known misogynists like Aris & Dr. Sub for the show and the ones that had overall control of the entire situation. If this is all an issue of morality then shouldn't their partnership with Capcom be in contention given they're the one who displayed the community in such a bad light?

Whilst I can see the severity of the punishment was the point, Levelup seemed to be the most "innocent" of the targets available. Especially considering that they dealt with the situation themselves prior to any intervention from the Cannons.

Edit: Didn't think this was worth a new post but I listed Sp00ky due to his association with IPW and the role he played at the event. I know that the first response I heard from him in regards to Aris's antics on the stream had him condoning them. Anyway thanks for the replies guys.

[Sixfortyfive]

Whilst I can see the severity of the punishment was the point, Levelup seemed to be the most "innocent" of the targets available. Especially considering that they dealt with the situation themselves prior to any intervention from the Cannons.

Yeah, but the point is that any potential future enablers now have a very clear incentive to nip this kind of stuff in the bud immediately instead of just standing by and letting it happen. Valle probably understands the intention better than anyone.

[Mistwalker]

Very big props to SRK and Inkblot, especially the former, for both taking a stand and taking action.

Also hats off to Spooky, who always seems positive, gracious, and respectful of the players, the games, and the viewers all around. He avoids being drawn into game/character/player bashing and I hope the service he provides, for the community and its viewers, is not horribly impacted. The guy just comes across as a class act to me.

You can't go wrong with Ultra David and James Chen, but I do really hope Yipes gets to keep access to a microphone.

[Rice-Eater]

To me it just seems overly harsh given the lack of punishment for IPW/TS (who I'm assuming will be streaming EVO again if they manage to keep things under control) despite them being at the centre of the issue, and despite Haunt's siding this Aris when shit went down. I love Spooky & Haunts but it really strikes me as a very unjust move.

Hold up, Spooky deserves none of this. He wasn't there and it wasn't his stream either. Haunts on the other hand, I'm disappointed with how he handled things. I don't think he was himself either, it seems he had been bottling up stuff from his split with Jared from a while ago and when he sided with Aris, he wasn't thinking clearly just like Aris when he made those comments. He also seemed conflicted while doing it. He wanted to side with Aris with the whole raw and uncut attitude, but I think he finally realized what Aris said was crazy and that's when he ended it by just saying he didn't know. Sorry Haunts, I don't want to put words in your mouth if you're reading this. But this is how I interpreted your response when all thsi went down.

As for the Level Up being punished. I wished that wasn't the case, but right now someone has to be made a example of so that all others can follow that example and unfortunately it turned out to be Level Up. Unlike with Spooky or IPW, this occurred after all hell had broke loose. Basically they knew what kind of scrutiny they'd be under if they said something wrong and they let it happen. No, not intentionally. I"m sure Valle didn't give the go ahead for anything, but unfortunately the guys who got on the mic fucked it up for them.

I expect the same thing to happen at Final Round. There will be a lot of eyes watching, and some of them are there just to get a hold of any ammo they can to use against the FGC. I'm sure Shinblanka(the organizer) and Spooky will be sure to brief everybody who gets on the mic to watch what they say or face the consequences.

[Doomshine]

I hate to say I told you so (re: Aris), but. . . Tekken fan. That's what we get for not keeping those mouth breathers chained up in the shed.

The fuck is this shit?

[rCIZZLE]

This is what I was afraid of. I just KNEW this would happen. It's just not true. It appears as if it was true because those communities with these problems are frequently being spotlighted, and even more so right now. And of course, it bounces back and hits the rest of the gaming world. What about female MMORPG players? They can do whatever the fuck they want without being seriously harassed most of the time. Like, look at the female portion of the scenes that's grown around DAOC. Or WoW. Same goes for CS. Women can play on public servers and not be harassed. They are part of clans, they fuckin' play professionally without being reduced to the tits. Or if you want to get really "okay, you're doing your thing, have fun", look at what went on in Second Life, and what kind of a role female players played in that. Great job, FGC. Your community leaders are really awesome. Good stuff with the streams. You're really the shining example for gaming.

The thing is the FGC doesn't have a community-wide problem that's any bigger than any other gaming community. You can't honestly tell me that all female and minority gamers are welcomed with open arms by EVERYBODY in MMOs, shooters, and the rest. There are many "Aris"s out there but we just got unlucky in having one in a very public position.

I used to have a subscription on ESEA for 5-6 years and while they did a good job at issuing temporary bans for racism and direct harassment, there was plenty of sexism and ignorant remarks in CS. Even the bans weren't long enough to be significant. Public servers are worse. You didn't mention other shooters but Halo, COD, and others don't really seem as accepting of diversity as the FGC.

It's not the same type of "gaming" I guess but the MTG community is currently under fire and had to have community leaders issue the same type of statement after a female player was being indirectly harassed while placing highly in a tournament.

Like you said, SRK and other members of the FGC are doing a great job at tackling the incident and shunning those involved. However, gaming in general has a long way to go to be completely accepting of female gamers.

[Lyphen]

http://kotaku.com/5889869/coach-not-...fighting-games I gotta admit the people trying to spin what she says for the sake of their argument in a few places *mostly comments and such* REALLY PISS ME THE FUCK OFF. *cough* ahem. At the least they didn't pull an asshole move and not put this up or the other more positive articles up. If you are gonna report one side of the coin only... that's just weak. They didn't thankfully.

I really wish they would've showcased Emily Chow's tumblr post instead. I feel like Miranda is, understandably, a bit all over the place when it comes to her comments about the event. And I've always said Aris, though the break point for all this, wasn't the only reason all these changes needed to take place (sup Marn), so I facepalmed at the complete blame attribution.

Glad that she's getting a lot of support and feeling better.

[suzu]

I really wish they would've showcased Emily Chow's tumblr post instead. I feel like Miranda is, understandably, a bit all over the place when it comes to her comments about the event. And I've always said Aris, though the break point for all this, wasn't the only reason all these changes needed to take place (sup Marn), so I facepalmed at the complete blame attribution. Glad that she's getting a lot of support and feeling better.

That post from Emily Chow is a good one.

[PsychoSoldier]

yeah, I'm personally really disappointed in Haunts and am pretty surprised at the lack of conversation around that considering he was agreeing with Aris on some of the things that apparently made Miranda decide to give up.

I also saw Art's livestream that night and Haunts was on there and really trying to downplay what Aris had said, saying something to the effect of you shouldn't take Aris seriously.

I imagine the reason that IPW wasn't punished was because ultimately it was Capcom running the show, and Inkblot and co. has no leverage on Capcom in this particular instance.

And insofar as the finality of Miranda's statement goes, even though she places the blame solely on one person, it is a totally valid thing for people to examine the larger community issues that made him believe he had cover to do what he did. Unfortunately, I think some of the responses made to this by community members are going to make press members wonder at the insularity of some of our members and may engage us in the future from that standpoint.

[Doomshine]

I also saw Art's livestream that night and Haunts was on there and really trying to downplay what Aris had said, saying something to the effect of you shouldn't take Aris seriously.

You wouldn't happen to know where in the archive I can find this? I watched his stream for quite a while before I went to bed, but I didn't catch this.

[Lord-Audie]

You wouldn't happen to know where in the archive I can find this? I watched his stream for quite a while before I went to bed, but I didn't catch this.

I would like to see this too.

I cannot comprehend how someone can downplay much less defend Aris actions.

[thetrin]

i was wondering why this topic was so big goddamn this is a fucked up story sort of continues to support my suspicions that heavily geek communities are far more prone to sexual harassment than other communities, due in large part to a feeling of so frequently being rejected by the opposite sex or simply being unable to know how to act due to social ineptitude. So these people compensate in a really negative way

I couldn't agree with you more. I saw the same kind of unacceptable behavior in the comments section of 1up's article on sexism in Mass Effect 2. People were actually saying that the writer had a stick up his ass because he was wasting space on 1up talking about this. People even got angry that he was addressing the subject at all, saying that it was "not news".

Honestly, the more I learn about how other gamers treat women, the less I want to be part of the community.