[pvpness]

Even Julian Gollop's latest game (Ghost Recon Shadow Wars) used the move/shoot turn dynamic and it worked out great. I have no problem with losing TU's.

This.

I'm so excited for this game. UFO Defense is my favorite game of all time and I put lots of hours into it each year, even still. I'm somewhat concerned about the squad limit. I'm more concerned that now that they are making an X-Com game that I'm actually excited for after all these years, that I'm going to die or the world is going to end.

[charlequin]

WOW. This looks really, really great. The camera, the presentation. the animations. It just looks really slick, AND it's still a turn based strategy game with base building and management between levels. It looks like a really solid effort and I'm excited to play it. :D

Yup. What impresses me with the video is the overall slickness of it -- the dynamic camera angles, the smoothness of the UI, the animations of the idle units while other units are acting, the smooth transitions, the cinematic cut-ins -- a lot of stuff to help build the sense of the game as dynamic and responsive despite a core turn-based mechanic, which I think is a very good choice on their part. It also looks like it moves at a pretty good clip, which is very important in games like this.

[ruttyboy]

frankly speaking most times I just forget how much TUs every action takes or I have to play the game constantly to memorize them. Because yes, they show them in the bar but then I make a move and see that I don't have one TU to shoot just because I don't quite remember how much TUs you need per shot or I miscalculated. I still don't remember how much TUs I need spend to dig into inventory in Fallout during combat even though I played hundreds of hours of Fallout 1-2. So instead of thinking how to approach this situation in a more creative way I sit and do some stupid calculations. Basically I do the same as people in new XCOM will do but with numbers. It's like thinking about how your muscles in your leg work and then making a step instead of just making a step and plan a step ahead. that's my point. The new system gives me more flexibilty in thinking because I don't have to do maths and use my brain resources for simple actions. I just have to plan a strategy. but if you enjoy doing calculations - fine! I always hated numbers, this just not my type of thinking.

Ah so you're not talking about the actual flexibility of the system at all, just that simplifying it makes you feel more capable to cope with it.

[Air Zombie Meat]

That looked really cool, looking forward to this game so much.

Don't agree with the revisionist bashing of TU's in this thread though. There were the reserve tu buttons for shots\crouching so you didn't have to make mental calculations at all, the game did it for you. Bottom line is they allowed more flexibility. You could do a whole range of things in a single turn. Also allowed you to spend part of a soldiers tus, switch to another soldier to do something else then come back later to the original dude to spend them.

[Gully State]

Any word of a release date yet? Or is this game still very far off?

[robin2]

I'm aware of that. This is also a different game from the original, not everything has to stay exactly the same.

Its a conceptual difference. The two systems have different flavors and I think X-Com is characterized by the non-fixed flavor of the TUs-based system. Apocalypse is realtime but I think it feels more X-Com-like than all the Move+Action games I know.

[Sinatar]

Any word of a release date yet? Or is this game still very far off?

They've just said "fall".

[Neuromancer]

Its a conceptual difference. The two systems have different flavors and I think X-Com is characterized by the non-fixed flavor of the TUs-based system. Apocalypse is realtime but I think it feels more X-Com-like than all the Move+Action games I know.

Fair enough.

[subversus]

Ah so you're not talking about the actual flexibility of the system at all, just that simplifying it makes you feel more capable to cope with it.

you may have no problems with maths but you have problems with reading comprehension so I'll mark all words necessary for understanding.

My first post in this thread about flexibility:

I think it's much better than TUs because it gives me more flexibility but still retains its tactical element.

after this post I asked people to explain how the old system is more flexible for me. They explained. And then I explained how the old system is less flexible for me because I had less headroom for actual planning and strategy. I don't give a damn if the old system is more flexible for you because I won't be playing the game sitting in your head. The ultimate goal of all strategy games is to make player form a strategy. The old system left me less choice because instead of thinking about a strategy I had to do maths. If your brain enjoys doing math and building a strategy through numbers and calculations it's fine. I tend to think with images and associations and use them as building blocks for thinking.

I hope it helped.

[Air Zombie Meat]

In all the hundreds of hours of XCom I've played I've never done a single calculation. I can see that it might be helpful (although the reserve buttons are good enough for the most important stuff) but it was in no way necessary.

[subversus]

In all the hundreds of hours of XCom I've played I've never done a single calculation. I can see that it might be helpful (although the reserve buttons are good enough for the most important stuff) but it was in no way necessary.

So you never ran into a situation when you had no points to shoot even if you thought that there was enough points to spend?

[TucoBenedictoPacifico]

after this post I asked people to explain how the old system is more flexible for me. They explained. And then I explained how the old system is less flexible for me because I had less headroom for actual planning and strategy. I don't give a damn if the old system is more flexible for you because I won't be playing the game sitting in your head. The ultimate goal of all strategy games is to make player form a strategy. The old system left me less choice because instead of thinking about a strategy I had to do maths. If your brain enjoys doing math and building a strategy through numbers and calculations it's fine. I tend to think with images and associations and use them as building blocks for thinking. I hope it helped.

Oh, come on, don't be ridiculous, now.

You are entitled to your opinion but all this ranting about "doing math" is a bad joke and makes no sense.
Also, no, "flexibility" isn't about personal opinions. It's about how many different tactical options you have.
And it's a fact that TUs allow a more detailed and more versatile micromanagement, ergo they *objectively* are a more flexible game mechanic.

[elcranky]

WHAT? You are the one talking nonsense. Time Units are simply a pool of action points that you can manage in any way you want, allowing extreme granularity in the micromanagement of you soldiers. Just stating boldly a fact doesn't make it true, and in fact your statement is just bullshit, without any base in reality. And TUS being a "quite simple" mechanic in principle is hardly a flaw; if anything is an additional argument against this nonsense of pointing them as an obstacle to the action's flow.

Sigh, my comments are obviously going over your head. TU add zero depth as there is always an optimal solution to a given turn. That optimal solution is accounting driven. The presence of an optimal solution clearly indicates that there is no strategic or tactical depth added by the TU system, just micromanagement for micromanagements sake. Those are the facts of the situation. There is no opinion in those statements. Any depth you perceive must be driven by inability to capture and process the gestalt. Now if you confuse micromanagement with depth, then I will concede your interpretation of depth.

[maquiladora]

I LOVE the design of the base.

[Air Zombie Meat]

So you never ran into a situation when you had no points to shoot even if you thought that there was enough points to spend?

No because I use the "reserve tu's for shot" buttons. It automatically stops you from using tu's that you would need to fire. Theres also a reserve for crouch one. Can't help but question how familiar you really are with the game if you don't know about those.

[subversus]

Oh, come on, don't be ridiculous, now. You are entitled to your opinion but all this ranting about "doing math" is a bad joke and makes no sense. Also, no, "flexibility" isn't about personal opinions. It's about how many different tactical options you have. And it's a fact that TUs allow a more detailed and more versatile micromanagement, ergo they *objectively* are a more flexible game mechanic.

*objectively* is the most stupid word when it comes to entertainment and art. There is no *objectively* when it comes to something that can be only percieved through human mind. I mean *objectively* water turns into ice at 0 degrees (Celcium). When it comes to human mind everyone is a unique individual and has a different perception of stuff which comes from experience and one million other factors including physical ones. So there could be nothing objective about that. What I find easy is hard for you, what you find beautiful is ugly for me and that is fine. As I have said:

I think it's much better than TUs because it gives me more flexibility but still retains its tactical element.

I never said something like

I think it's much better than TUs because it gives provides more flexibility but still retains its tactical element

[Zeliard]

I LOVE the design of the base.

That made #1 on RPS' list of "XCOM Remake: 8 Things I Dig, 6 Things I Worry About"

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012...own-preview-2/

I AM EXCITED ABOUT: 1. The base, or the ‘ant farm’ as Firaxis refer to it. A cross-section view of your (gradually tailored and expanded) facility with a side-on view into every room, it looks alive and busy, something beavering away to combat an enormous threat, something far more engaging than the static Lego of the original X-COM. The infirmary contains your wounded soldiers, the healthy ones are exercising in the gym or shooting pool in the recroom, the scientists and engineers are doing their things in their respective parts of the base. This is the world that you have built and staffed. I also dug hearing the intercom intone ‘commander to mission control, commander to mission control’ – a reminder that you’re there with a job to do.

[MiniBossBattle]

Man, the game previews are exceeding my expectations. Love the cinematic camera, the animated base layout, even the nationality flag on the back of the soldiers.

[TucoBenedictoPacifico]

Sigh, my comments are obviously going over your head. TU add zero depth as there is always an optimal solution to a given turn.

Yeah, you keep repeating it, but it just isn't true. So we have nothing to spare.

[subversus]

No because I use the "reserve tu's for shot" buttons. It automatically stops you from using tu's that would you need to fire. Theres also a reserve for crouch one. I question how familiar you really are with the game if you don't know about those.

I was talking about TUs in general. I also mentioned Fallout.

/sigh

[AlimNassor]

Yeah, you keep repeating it, but it just isn't true. So we have nothing to spare.

You saying it's not true doesn't make it so.

[Minsc]

Tidbits from another interview, from Metro.co.uk:

GC: My only concern is the four soldier squad limit because that does change the nature of the tactics and gameplay quite considerably, so what's the thinking behind that? JS: It's a six squad limit actually, but you start with four and the idea is that later in the game you add more… GC: The original limit was like 12 or 14 wasn't it? JS: Yeah, once you get the Avenger transport you can have obscene amounts. And that's definitely something we scaled down, but the reason we did that is that, as you saw, our soldiers can do a lot more things now. And those guys in the demo weren't even fully levelled up. We've added many, many new weapon types, classes, cover… so we added all these things to the game to where having those huge squads made the game basically unplayable. So… GC: I guess it's now more like Laser Squad. JS: Yeah.

GC: (laughs) So the levels themselves are also completely randomly generated? JS: The levels themselves are hand-crafted but we have an obscene amount… you could not play through a full game twice and see those levels again. But what happens on those levels with aliens when they come up, that stuff is all procedural.

Some straight answers to the squad size and terrain / mission maps.

[Air Zombie Meat]

I was talking about TUs in general. I also mentioned Fallout. /sigh

Eh, you asked me a question about what I said in relation to XCom. You've been using that example of not having enough tu's left to shoot in XCom the whole thread when it's just not possible if you play the game correctly.

[TucoBenedictoPacifico]

You saying it's not true doesn't make it so.

I can argue about the topic far more in detail than just stating it.
Try me.

[Neuromancer]

JS: The levels themselves are hand-crafted but we have an obscene amount… you could not play through a full game twice and see those levels again

Oh that's a real bummer.

[Sectus]

Want want want.

[Minsc]

Eh, you asked me a question about what I said in relation to XCom. You've been using that example of not having enough tu's left to shoot in XCom the whole thread when it's just not possible if you play the game correctly.

What I envision happening to me often in the original X-COM thinking back would be, clicking the reserve TUs for an auto shot, then trying to walk a short distance from point A to point B, and getting stuck somewhere in the middle (not enough TUs!). There was a disconnect in the system without crunching numbers.

Solving this would involve implementing a system where clicking on the unit would have their moveable distance highlight the tiles in a turn's reach, possibly changing color to indicate where the divide between move + shoot vs. move + move reaches. This is what we are getting in the new game now, so I'm pretty happy with it for now, as it should be more intuitive.

[Sectus]

People complaining are silleh. There's nothing wrong with Time Units/Action Points but I'm also not against different systems. If you look at games UFO: Enemy Unknown, X-Com: Apocalypse, Jagged Alliance 2 and Valkyria Chronicles, they're all great games but also extremely different in many aspects. I really don't mind seeing things done differently.

I think we're actually lucky in that regard. While there's not many games in this genre, most of the games are very different and unique. Compare that to the shooter genre where 90% of games are practically identical.

[UNCyrus]

Can't wait. One of my favourite games back in the day.

Ditto. Looks like the franchise is in safe hands, indeed. at least this version.

[Air Zombie Meat]

What I envision happening to me often in the original X-COM thinking back would be, clicking the reserve TUs for an auto shot, then trying to walk a short distance from point A to point B, and getting stuck somewhere in the middle (not enough TUs!). There was a disconnect in the system without crunching numbers. Solving this would involve implementing a system where clicking on the unit would have their moveable distance highlight the tiles in a turn's reach, possibly changing color to indicate where the divide between move + shoot vs. move + move reaches. This is what we are getting in the new game now, so I'm pretty happy with it for now, as it should be more intuitive.

Yeah that is true, you never really knew exactly where you would end up and that is a legitimate drawback of tus. You'd just never end up not being able to fire or crouch if you reserved. I do feel like the extra flexibility you get with tu's was worth that though.

Anyway I'm fine with the new system as it's a different game and all, not going to condemn it until I've actually seen how it works in context. Just don't agree with the assertion that tu's are a horribly complicated system that forces you to number crunch. I know I've never done it.

[Yo Gotti]

6 Player Squad Limit. I'm happy with that. 8 would've been nice just for the option but more than that at once isn't really effective or realistic for a squad sim.

Kind of disappointed the levels aren't unique but who gives a damn really. If there's enough variety in the levels, weapons and aliens then cool.

[elcranky]

I can argue about the topic far more in detail than just stating it. Try me.

I stated simple facts that are not open to interpretation. When an optimal solution exists, depth is nonexistant around that dimension. So I don't see how you can argue the topic. Now we can certainly argue the meaning of depth, but that is about it.

[JoeBoy101]

Everything looks awesome. I'm trepidatious about the drop of TUs, but sounds like they are keeping the concept of them alive in the actions. It'll come down to the gameplay.

Still, this easily looks like a game I'd throw down full price on.

[Impeccable]

I tried to play XCOM a couple years ago but no manual and I just gave up.

I'm am totally on board for this though.

[TucoBenedictoPacifico]

I stated simple facts that are not open to interpretation. When an optimal solution exists, depth is nonexistant around that dimension. So I don't see how you can argue the topic. Now we can certainly argue the meaning of depth, but that is about it.

Yeah, except there isn't one single optimal solution with a TU-based system; it really doesn't matter how insistently you keep repeating it.
If anything, there are more possible combinations using TUs and granular management than using fixed phases in your soldiers' turns.

Beside there are many other implications with the new system. Like the fact that in a move+action system LOS checks are losing any significance.
And in fact we know that in this new X-com we aren't dealing with cones of vision and lines of sight anymore, as anything isn't covered by the fog of war is constantly visible for any member of your team.

So forgive me if I can just laugh or be annoyed when I read your nonsensical statements about how TUs are supposed to take away depth from the combat system.

[Dennis]

Too good to be true.

[Dragonzord]

That customization screen...

bisonyes

[epmode]

GC: (laughs) So the levels themselves are also completely randomly generated? JS: The levels themselves are hand-crafted but we have an obscene amount… you could not play through a full game twice and see those levels again. But what happens on those levels with aliens when they come up, that stuff is all procedural.

That's kind of disappointing, honestly.

[Gaz Pwnage]

Man I cannot wait to get my hands on this game. I haven't been this hyped for a game since ME2. Give me now, yes please, all over my face, take my money etc etc

[Neuromancer]

That's kind of disappointing, honestly.

Yeah I bet they did it just to have scripted events in every level. (Like the little cutscenes where you see the aliens for the first time.)

I would much rather forgo those and have randomly generated levels; that was one of the defining characteristics of the first game for me.

[Junie12]

Like what I'm seeing so far, definitely one of my most anticipated games this year. Hope it lives up to the hype!

[subversus]

wait, what????

levels are not procedural???

now that is bullshit...........

edit: and before you say that you can't do procedural levels with UE3 - Hunted did that.

[Clevinger]

looks awesome!

[Yo Gotti]

GiantBomb just posted a really good article on XCOM here:

http://www.giantbomb.com/news/xcom-e...ma-death/4020/

[epmode]

wait, what???? levels are not procedural??? now that is bullshit...........

Right. I mean, the whole point is that you never really know what's around that corner. Even if the map count is high, someone that plays the game a lot will eventually start recognizing stuff. It absolutely hurts longevity. Once I saw how well they implemented scenery destruction, I figured we didn't have anything to worry about (since the maps were probably created using some kind of tile system).

Stardock ran into a similar problem with Elemental. Even though the game was tile-based, the finished game only featured pre-made maps. This was because their map generator and AI wasn't up to the task. Thankfully, they fixed this in the upcoming sequel.

[subversus]

that is really dissapointing for me....

hype decreased signifficantly, still looking forward though.

[Air Zombie Meat]

Yeah that is a bit of a bummer. Hopefully theres loads of them and stuff like alien spawns and your starting position are randomised. On the plus side it will allow for more intricate maps.

[Neuromancer]

Right. I mean, the whole point is that you never really know what's around that corner. Even if the map count is high, someone that plays the game a lot will eventually start recognizing stuff. It absolutely hurts longevity. Once I saw how well they implemented scenery destruction, I figured we didn't have anything to worry about (since the maps were probably created using some kind of tile system). Stardock ran into a similar problem with Elemental. Even though the game was tile-based, the finished game only featured pre-made maps. This was because their map generator and AI wasn't up to the task. Thankfully, they fixed this in the upcoming sequel.

Non randomly generated levels has been my biggest disappointment with the last 2 Gollop titles I played (Ghost Recon Shadow Wars and Rebelstar: Tactical Command.) Shame Firaxis is going this route as well.

As you said it's only a matter of time before you play the same exact level again and it will probably play out the same exact way.

[Neuromancer]

GiantBomb just posted a really good article on XCOM here: http://www.giantbomb.com/news/xcom-e...ma-death/4020/

I hate Alex Navarro's writing.

If you want a prime example of how fickle (and sometimes needlessly dismissive) the video gaming audience can often be, look no further than 2K's upcoming multiheaded XCOM reboot attack. For a long while, we've known about 2K Marin's XCOM game, a shooter that blends the universe and some of the more strategic elements of the classic PC game. We've known about this far longer than we've known about Firaxis' more traditionally strategy-focused XCOM: Enemy Unknown. Because of this, we spent a long time watching as fans of the original XCOM games groused and grumbled about the fact that 2K Marin's XCOM wasn't really XCOM enough for their tastes. They dared to do something different with a beloved franchise, and that wasn't cool--at least, of course, until 2K finally got around to announcing Enemy Unknown. Now, suddenly, there was a "real" XCOM game, so the fact that a purportedly less real XCOM game existed wasn't as big of a deal.

Just horrible.

[op_ivy]

the ant farm bases look incredible! also, that was 360 footage right?