[levious]

You go ahead and point out for me where I suggest any such thing. I very explicitly said the exact opposite previously.

first of all, I will agree that we don't have enough information, but I was responding to this:

Again I'll repeat that the police ignoring a clearly unlawful shooting is as unlikely as any scenario I could think up for why this kid ended up dead.

No if you want to say that "as unlikely as any scenario I could think up" is not equivalent to "out of the realm of possibility" that's fine, but that's a bit on the side of nitpicking to me.

[frankie_baby]

It be insulting to the dead guy to try and shoehorn it in to a topic where its not even relevant.

why isnt it relevant? was the guy not shot?

[samus i am]

Quoting the relevant part in case people don't follow your link:

Geez. It seems like this guy started a fight with the kid, and when the kid fought back he shot him.

[Mudkips]

So guns are the real racists.

That's impossible. Some of my best friends's guns are black.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

why isnt it relevant? was the guy not shot?

Yes, but that's not relevant to the issue at hand.

[Big Baybee]

Geez. It seems like this guy started a fight with the kid, and when the kid fought back he shot him.

That is exactly what happened. What other evidence are folks waiting for?

[60_gig_PS3]

Isn't about race. Really dude. Really.

well the initial suspiscion is about race. The fact that it ended in an innocent kid dying is about guns.

[rexor0717]

Who do I call about this? I never do this, but I am ready to raise hell today. This story made me pretty fucking angry.

This. This is one of the most fucked up things I've read about in a while. That dude needs to rot in prison.

[Derwind]

So what charges is the neighbourhood watch guy facing?

[Salmonax]

I read a few more stories on this, turns out he was taken in for questioning and released without being charged.

Ah, that makes much more sense, even if it still sucks.

[mr2xxx]

It's tragically ironic that you are trying to protect your neighborhood, but you are the one that your neighborhood should be protected from.

[Log4Girlz]

well the initial suspiscion is about race. The fact that it ended in an innocent kid dying is about guns.

What race was the kid and why was he questioned? Did the gun question him?

[frankie_baby]

Yes, but that's not relevant to the issue at hand.

why not ask mr martin what he thinks, oh yeah we cant he's been shot dead

i'm not in anyway trying to turn a blind eye to the racism or or the lack of police action i think both are disgusting but both those points had been covered well by every other poster in the thread but to try and say the issue of guns is not relevant is terribly insulting and makes you sound like someone just trying to hide americas ridiculous gun laws under the carpet

[Derwind]

well the initial suspiscion is about race. The fact that it ended in an innocent kid dying is about guns.

So the fact that a specific weapon killed the kid eclipses the actual motives behind his death?

What if he was killed traumatically by a spoon? What then?

[Neuromancer]

That is exactly what happened. What other evidence are folks waiting for?

The witness doesn't say who started the fight, only that the kid was on top of the other guy punching him.

[KHarvey16]

first of all, I will agree that we don't have enough information, but I was responding to this: No if you want to say that "as unlikely as any scenario I could think up" is not equivalent to "out of the realm of possibility" that's fine, but that's a bit on the side of nitpicking to me.

Nitpicking? You're completely changing the meaning of what I said! Dismissing one scenario for being unlikely only to default to another scenario that is just as unlikely isn't logically consistent.

[Big Baybee]

The witness doesn't say who started the fight, only that the kid was on top of the other guy punching him.

Without waiting for police to arrive, Crump said, Zimmerman confronted Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk near his home.

???

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

why not ask mr martin what he thinks, oh yeah we cant he's been shot dead i'm not in anyway trying to turn a blind eye to the racism or or the lack of police action i think both are disgusting but both those points had been covered well by every other poster in the thread but to try and say the issue of guns is not relevant is terribly insulting and makes you sound like someone just trying to hide americas ridiculous gun laws under the carpet

Your the one who started with this nonsense trying to shoehorn an anti-second amendment agenda into the matter like a bolt out of the blue.

[Arcteryx]

Police Thursday released an incident report that gave new clues that support Zimmerman. When police arrived and found the body, they also found Zimmerman bleeding from the nose and back of his head, according to the report. Also, the back of his shirt was wet and had grass clippings on it, as if he'd been on his back on the ground. And an officer overheard Zimmerman complain, " 'I was yelling for someone to help me but no one would help me,' " according to the report. One of the things on which police are focusing is the background noise in a 911 call, the chief said. "You can hear the struggle and the gunshot," he said. Police want to enhance the background noise to better hear what went on, he said. Detectives should complete their investigation next week at the latest, the chief said, and will let the state attorney's office decide whether to file criminal charges. At the family's news conference in Orlando, lawyers for Martin's family accused Zimmerman of racial profiling. One of the family's attorneys, Benjamin Crump of Tallahassee, called Zimmerman a "loose cannon" and accused him of shooting Martin in "cold blood". Zimmerman had spotted Martin in his gated community about 7:15 p.m. and called Sanford police on a non-emergency number, saying he'd just seen a suspicious person, both sides agreed. That call then ended and police dispatched an officer. Before he arrived, however, the department got several other 911 calls, people complaining about two men fighting and a gunshot. At the news conference, Crump and Orlando attorney Natalie Jackson said there was nothing suspicious about the 17-year-old. There was no reason for Zimmerman to follow him. Martin was an invited guest, visiting his father's fiancée and her family for a few days, they said. He had visited there before, and it was a community with black and minority residents.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,1380794.story


Not sure what to think now. Shooting him obviously wasn't justified, nor was following him in the first place, but it doesn't sound like he just walked up an shot him either. It definitely sounds like there was a fight of some kind.

[Jim E. Rossler]

The fact remains that this wouldn't have happened is that guy didn't have a car to patrol in
Easy access to cars is the underlying cause here, not guns, not racism
Cars kill more people in America than guns
And 99% of those are accidental deaths

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

So the fact that a specific weapon killed the kid eclipses the actual motives behind his death? What if he was killed traumatically by a spoon? What then?

Lick plates like a dog, spoons aren't worth the bloodshed!

[frankie_baby]

So the fact that a specific weapon killed the kid eclipses the actual motives behind his death? What if he was killed traumatically by a spoon? What then?

then it would be a freak occurance, spoons are not designed to kill people guns are

[ConfusingJazz]

Yes, but that's not relevant to the issue at hand.

Kinda is, its one of the reasons that while I think guns are neat, I don't like them: I don't trust my neighbors to handle them correctly. Hell, I don't trust myself with them.

It derives from how I drive: I don't trust anyone with a car, and that philosophy has probably saved me from more accidents then I care to think about.

[60_gig_PS3]

So the fact that a specific weapon killed the kid eclipses the actual motives behind his death? What if he was killed traumatically by a spoon? What then?

If the guy attacked him with a spoon I dont think we'd be having this discussion.

[Big Baybee]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,1380794.story Not sure what to think now. Shooting him obviously wasn't justified, nor was following him in the first place, but it doesn't sound like he just walked up an shot him either. It definitely sounds like there was a fight of some kind.

There was a fight with the kid because he fucking started it. lol. He initiated everything that happened.

[SquiddyCracker]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,1380794.story Not sure what to think now. Shooting him obviously wasn't justified, nor was following him in the first place, but it doesn't sound like he just walked up an shot him either. It definitely sounds like there was a fight of some kind.

Maybe he walked up to him with the gun, kid got scared and attempted to run, got cornered, fought for his life, ended up dead?

[Neuromancer]

???

'Confronting' isn't the same thing as taking a swing or tackling somebody though.

[Log4Girlz]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,1380794.story Not sure what to think now. Shooting him obviously wasn't justified, nor was following him in the first place, but it doesn't sound like he just walked up an shot him either. It definitely sounds like there was a fight of some kind.

Should have shot him in the knee.

[KHarvey16]

???

Crump is the family's lawyer. Also confront does not mean start a fight.

Why are we so opposed to accepting that the article in the OP doesn't have enough information?

[TheOMan]

What was reported to 911? How did the conversation go? Was he told not to approach? What was he told? Why did he approach? Your assumption seems to be that this was a clearly unlawful shooting. Again I'll repeat that the police ignoring a clearly unlawful shooting is as unlikely as any scenario I could think up for why this kid ended up dead. We have one side of the story, and even they are clearly ignorant about some details and, by virtue of their request for the 911 call, knowingly so.

Yeah - we're asking the same questions in different ways. I'm not assuming (I don't think so, at least), which is why I typed *if*. Maybe the kid approached the car for some reason and that somehow escalated into the unarmed kid being shot. Doesn't seem likely to me.

In any case, I was asking for a likely scenario that would lead to this, which you implied you had. I can't think of one that is *likely*. I'm very curious to hear of one or two that are likely to you.

[CrazyDogg77]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,1380794.story Not sure what to think now. Shooting him obviously wasn't justified, nor was following him in the first place, but it doesn't sound like he just walked up an shot him either. It definitely sounds like there was a fight of some kind.

He still shouldn't have confronted him.

[frankie_baby]

Your the one who started with this nonsense trying to shoehorn an anti-second amendment agenda into the matter like a bolt out of the blue.

i didnt bring guns into the thread, the fact the young man was shot is stated in the OP, now if you're trying to says guns shouldnt be brought up cos you're allowed them cos it says so in the 2nd amendment well just look at the facts, people get shot dead all the time thanks to that 2nd amendment, great isnt it

[echoshifting]

why not ask mr martin what he thinks, oh yeah we cant he's been shot dead

That's....sorta what everyone has been trying to get through to you. Would he have wanted his death to become a cause? You don't know, and it isn't important.

Objectively - the guy was carrying his gun legally. Objectively - the victim was black in a predominantly white neighborhood, and was killed by a white man. No, that does not mean 100% that the crime was racially motivated, but it is something that can reasonably be speculated on. These tangential questions of "If only the perp hadn't had a gun" are a pointless distraction, because the perp was carrying legally.

Did he commit a crime and was it racially motivated? If he committed a crime, why hasn't he been charged? These are relevant questions. You're talking about changing the law outright. That's fine, but it is not relevant to the topic. Furthermore, it suggests that things definitely would have turned out differently if gun control laws were different and assumes the perp would not have been carrying anyway.

He IS dead. He WAS shot dead. No point in "woulda-coulda-shoulda."

[KHarvey16]

He still shouldn't have confronted him.

Why did he confront him?

[Derwind]

then it would be a freak occurance, spoons are not designed to kill people guns are

So is a hunting knife, so is a crossbow... The context is far more important in determining what occurred with this weapon. Weapons don't kill by themselves.

Gun control is something I agree with but that does not make the topic about rampant gun violence. The kid died because of the colour of his skin, not because too many guns are being passed around through the country.

If someone had the motive to kill someone the mode in which they do this is not nearly as relevant.

The fact that the notion of a black kid walking down a street still scares some folk is the issue at hand.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Kinda is, its one of the reasons that while I think guns are neat, I don't like them: I don't trust my neighbors to handle them correctly. Hell, I don't trust myself with them. It derives from how I drive: I don't trust anyone with a car, and that philosophy has probably saved me from more accidents then I care to think about.

That is more related to safe handling/operating and avoiding being around dangerous people.

[SUPREME1]

Cops and what seems to be a cover up?

NAH! That's just crazy!




Seriously, release the fucking audio tape.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

i didnt bring guns into the thread, the fact the young man was shot is stated in the OP, now if you're trying to says guns shouldnt be brought up cos you're allowed them cos it says so in the 2nd amendment well just look at the facts, people get shot dead all the time thanks to that 2nd amendment, great isnt it

People also get saved all the time because of the second amendment.

[Log4Girlz]

I would be pissed if confronted in a neighborhood and asked questions. Zimmerman should have waited for a police officer, plain and simple. Not start a fight with someone only to shoot them dead.

[Jim E. Rossler]

i didnt bring guns into the thread, the fact the young man was shot is stated in the OP, now if you're trying to says guns shouldnt be brought up cos you're allowed them cos it says so in the 2nd amendment well just look at the facts, people get shot dead all the time thanks to that 2nd amendment, great isnt it

Dat badd spelinng
Dat run-on sentence
Dat lack of capitalization

C'mon son

[Big Baybee]

Crump is the family's lawyer. Also confront does not mean start a fight. Why are we so opposed to accepting that the article in the OP doesn't have enough information?

Why did he confront him in the first place? I'm sorry, but if I'm walking home and some dude follows me in a car, then gets out to ask me what the fuck I'm doing in his neighborhood, I might not be very happy. Everything that happened is a direct result of the guys ridiculous actions and assumptions.

Why did he confront him?

There is no proof of the kid doing anything wrong other than walking while black.

[KHarvey16]

Yeah - we're asking the same questions in different ways. I'm not assuming (I don't think so, at least), which is why I typed *if*. Maybe the kid approached the car for some reason and that somehow escalated into the unarmed kid being shot. Doesn't seem likely to me. In any case, I was asking for a likely scenario that would lead to this, which you implied you had. I can't think of one that is *likely*. I'm very curious to hear of one or two that are likely to you.

I never said I had a scenario I deemed likely. I really can't deem anything likely as we lack large chunks of information. That has been my point this whole time. The information contained in other articles and the incident report is illustrating this perfectly.

[Arcteryx]

i didnt bring guns into the thread, the fact the young man was shot is stated in the OP, now if you're trying to says guns shouldnt be brought up cos you're allowed them cos it says so in the 2nd amendment well just look at the facts, people get shot dead all the time thanks to that 2nd amendment, great isnt it

Sure. And people get killed all the time from drunk drivers. I don't blame Smirnoff for the asshole who killed a friend of mine in highschool. I blame the asshole.

People like to put the blame on the gun. They try and do away with the fact that the HUMAN is at the root of the issue. No no, it must have been the gun that did it. A human couldn't possibly have done that.

[60_gig_PS3]

then it would be a freak occurance, spoons are not designed to kill people guns are

Not only that but also capable of killing people mistakenly by emotionally charged lunatics who decide to shoot first ask questions later. That's the problem.

[frankie_baby]

People also get saved all the time because if the second amendment.

doesnt change the fact you still have the highest rate of death by guns of any developed nation

[KHarvey16]

Why did he confront him in the first place? I'm sorry, but if I'm walking home and some dude follows me in a car, then gets out to ask me what the fuck I'm doing in his neighborhood, I might not be very happy. Everything that happened is a direct result of the guys ridiculous actions and assumptions.

Why do you ask questions and then go on to base your argument on an assumed answer to that question?

[Deified Data]

Articles like this seem to spew forth from the ether specifically to make people mad.

Neighborhood watchman should be prosecuted for murder, 100%. I sympathize with the self-defense mindset just like the next guy, but this wasn't self-defense in any way, shape, or form. You can't just shoot everyone you think is "suspicious". I guarantee you this guy has been waiting his entire life to shoot a black kid. Would like to hear how he feels now that he shot an innocent kid.

[Plywood]

You know OP, a comma goes a long way for a title. Not trying to be a douche but I was really confused before reading the story.

[frankie_baby]

Sure. And people get killed all the time from drunk drivers. I don't blame Smirnoff for the asshole who killed a friend of mine in highschool. I blame the asshole. People like to put the blame on the gun. They try and do away with the fact that the HUMAN is at the root of the issue. No no, it must have been the gun that did it. A human couldn't possibly have done that.

same as the spoon, vodka isnt designed to kill people, guns are

[Htown]

Why did he confront him?

Because he was a racist asshole who thinks all young black men are thugs.

Now, do you have any alternative explanation you would like to ACTUALLY discuss, or are you just going to make vague nonsensical posts about how "we don't know what happened" so that we don't blame this guy for confronting and shooting a kid with a pocket full of skittles?

And what is your vested interest in proving that race has nothing to do with this?