[Raist]

I don't understand why almost the entire criticism to the series is being concentrated on S2, which is leaps and bounds better than the first season which was at times, borderline mediocre (sans for the two last episodes). Bigger scope, better acting, less retarded sexposition, more focus, thematic consistence within each episode... yet, alas, gaf is full of complaints, most of them revolving around "this is not how things are suppoused to be in the book". Yes, some great book moments won't be included in the series (the Tickler death, for example), but it has in turn gave great moments of its own too (<3 Tywin -Ayra, Ygritte trolling, and so forth). It's its own thing, and I think that it has been able to convey the same powerful themes and stories of the book without taking too much compromises. Of course there are things to improve (the direction of some episodes is formulaic and pedrestian, soundtrack does not convinces me, some character's potrayal's like Stannis are off the mark, etc), but I did noticed a huge quality improvement as the show progressed (and deviated from the books), not vice - versa.

Well the problem is that it does feel much less focused. One reason is not really the show's fault, but book 2 introduces quite a lot of new players and there's also a lot of new perspectives added due to the fact that characters are seperated. So with the same amount of time, they now have to deal with much more to cover. This won't get any better so I'm not sure how they're gonna deal with that.

Book 2 also has roughly the same amount of major/WTF moments, but it's treated poorly/rushed in the show. Renly's assassination, Winterfell's fall, etc.
Add to this some serious departure from the books, and I can totally understand the criticism so far.

[6.8]

Isn't sansa a bit old to have her first period? God, this show is such a joke.

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

For the people mentioning the score, I believe that in the case of the first season it was done at the last minute, a few weeks before broadcast even. This season's been a bit better, with a few recognisable themes reoccurring.

[Fuzzy]

Isn't sansa a bit old to have her first period? God, this show is such a joke.

That's what happens when you make the character older on the show than in the book. She's only 12 in the book.

[Leonsito]

Man, Oona Chaplin is beautiful, I met her last year when he previewed a small local film in my city and she was very nice with everyone.

[Lothar]

I HATE it when shows show you something interesting at the first episode, then pretend they never mentioned it- only to FUCKING hint at it at the last episode or as a premier for the next season. I am talking about the stupid fucking winter that is supposedly coming since fucking day one. And then they have the audacity to use that phrase for the second season posters. Also, WTF is going on? The first few episodes shows a clear story. Now, all I am getting are what feel like stand alone random episodes where the ONLY interesting thing happening in an hour is the last 30 fucking seconds aaaaaand then they forget about it the next episode. WTF is going on here? 2nd season is almost over and NOTHING fucking major happened!

This is a problem with the direction. Major things have happened in the book at this point but those things seem to have pushed back into the final episodes. Like Arya already used her final name and Dany already went into the warlocks house well before the events of this episodes with Jon, Theon, Catelyn, and Jaime happened.

Bran and Rickon dying was supposed to be a major event, but I think they screwed that up.

Catelyn and Jaime's conversation was supposed to be a major event. It's a very revealing talk in the book, but they've shorted that up into a 2 minute scene. And since it's out of order, it has much less weight.

[Discotheque]

Bran and Rickon scene was screwed up big time!

book 2 spoiler my freaking sister guessed that they weren't dead since they literally point out a house with TWO children earlier in the episode

It was a surprise for me reading the book until the end, but with the way the show handled it it kinda ruins the finale. I dread what they'll do with the BIG shocker events in season 3.

[Donny Hayabusa]

Huh?? Did I miss the scene where they captured Bran and his brother? If the burned hanging bodies really were bran's and his brothers then what the fuck is going on? I thought they burned two children to save face.

[Gen.Grievous]

Bran and Rickon scene was screwed up big time! book 2 spoiler my freaking sister guessed that they weren't dead since they literally point out a house with TWO children earlier in the episode It was a surprise for me reading the book until the end, but with the way the show handled it it kinda ruins the finale. I dread what they'll do with the BIG shocker events in season 3.

So while reading you missed the part where Theon thinks about the millers boys looking like Bran and Rickon after Ramsay flayed their faces off and dipped them in tar?

[Moaradin]

What the fuck, are people really spoiling this shit without tagging it?

For fuck sake people.

[frequency]

I thought the difference between this thread and the other one is that we don't pretend the books don't exist - so comparisons are fair. But the last few pages have been just a bunch of people responding to every criticism with "NO BOOK!"

[3rdman]

Bran and Rickon scene was screwed up big time! book 2 spoiler my freaking sister guessed that they weren't dead since they literally point out a house with TWO children earlier in the episode It was a surprise for me reading the book until the end, but with the way the show handled it it kinda ruins the finale. I dread what they'll do with the BIG shocker events in season 3.

Hmm...It wasn't a surprise to me. If anything GRRM telegraphed that (at least) something was off. Reek had taken some of Bran and Rickon's clothing and made a point of ending the chapter with Theon suddenly realizing what the intention was of showing it to him.

I wasn't sure they were alive but it was clear that something was afoot.

*This post marks the first time in my posting career here at GAF that I ever used the word "afoot"...Just thought I'd mention that...

[Lothar]

Hmm...It wasn't a surprise to me. If anything GRRM telegraphed that (at least) something was off. Reek had taken some of Bran and Rickon's clothing and made a point of ending the chapter with Theon suddenly realizing what the intention was of showing it to him.

I had no idea how that piece of clothing connected with Reek knowing where they were but I never doubted for a second that he believed he knew. Up to that point, Reek was never presented as a clever character. He was just a dumb stinky prisoner.

[gutshot]

This thread omg this thread...

[ThisWreckage]

Isn't sansa a bit old to have her first period? God, this show is such a joke.

No. Women have started getting their periods earlier and earlier, but that wasn't always the case.

[AlanzTalon]

This thread omg this thread...

to say it has gone down a dark path would be an understatement. 1.8 seasons in and the bitching is drowning out the discussion.

[KingGondo]

It's the curse of adapting something like ASOIAF. You get to introduce it to a much wider audience who would never read the books, but you can NEVER satisfy the most hardcore nerds.

It's tiresome.

[jett]

That's what happens when you make the character older on the show than in the book. She's only 12 in the book.

It doesn't help that the actress is taller than most of the cast either. :lol

[gutshot]

to say it has gone down a dark path would be an understatement. 1.8 seasons in and the bitching is drowning out the discussion.

I don't even get why the people who think this show is 'Legend of the Seeker'-level bad are even still watching and/or posting in here...

Exactly! I'm not even a huge fan of the books, I haven't read past book 3. But, I like having things to hate on. It's all in good fun. Remember Lost season 6? Good times, good times.

Oh, that's why. Because you're a hater that just enjoys ruining other people's fun. Classy.

[Vyer]

How do you people stop comparing the show to the books? I know I would probably enjoy it more if I wasn't thinking "this is wrong, where are the reeds, why is Cersei being nice, why is Arya happy" throughout every episode, but I just can't help it. I feel like I'm only watching it just to see an adaptation, and this is a bad adaptation like everyone keeps saying.

It's not that you stop making mental comparisons to the books. It's that you stop expecting this to *be* the books. For a whole multitude of reasons this was never going to happen, and really, that's pretty much *always* the case. I used to read a LOT when I was younger and inevitably someone would make a movie of something I read. It didn't take long to recognize the simple fact that the transition between the mediums is just about always going to be altered ( I still remember being so disappointed at the dinosaurs left out of Jurassic Park, lol). Sometimes significantly so. Once you accept that it's easier to enjoy/judge something on its own merits. Much better to remove that weight off your shoulders ( of being mad that stuff changes). Especially since it was inevitable.

I'm obviously not watching it for the story, because I've already experienced the story in a better medium.

That's exactly what I mean. I'm not even necessarily going to disagree with the idea that perhaps the original book version is almost always the better medium to begin with. I seemed to find that to be the case more often than not. But that's irrelevant. Start watching for the version of the story this medium is trying to tell, instead of looking for something you've already seen and something it is not.

[Jedeye Sniv]

Isn't sansa a bit old to have her first period? God, this show is such a joke.

YMMV but my wife didn't start until she was 15. It's rarer but not impossible.

[jett]

Even if you disregard the books completely, this show fares poorly when compared to HBO's greats. The problem is that there's simply too much shit going on for its own good, the cast of characters is massive, they are all spread too thin to have any semblance of proper character development. There are no running themes in any of the episodes, it's just going through the motions. Add in the bland direction/editing and mostly stoic/emotionless tone of nearly every character and it's meh.

I recently rewatched all of Deadwood and the difference is quality is abysmal between the two.

[gutshot]

Even if you disregard the books completely, this show fares poorly when compared to HBO's greats. The problem is that there's simply too much shit going on for its own good, the cast of characters is massive, they are all spread too thin to have any semblance of proper character development. There are no running themes in any of the episodes, it's just going through the motions. Add in the bland direction/editing and mostly stoic/emotionless tone of nearly every character and it's meh. I recently rewatched all of Deadwood and the difference is quality is abysmal between the two.

So how do we account for the continuing positive, and oftentimes glowing, recaps and reviews each week from critics who watch a lot of TV? Are these critics lying to themselves or their readers? There seems to be a huge disconnect between what some people here feel about the quality of the show and what the general public and the critics feel about it. I'm genuinely curious to know why that is.

[brentech]

yall getting trolled to death

[Solo]

Even if you disregard the books completely, this show fares poorly when compared to HBO's greats. The problem is that there's simply too much shit going on for its own good, the cast of characters is massive, they are all spread too thin to have any semblance of proper character development. There are no running themes in any of the episodes, it's just going through the motions. Add in the bland direction/editing and mostly stoic/emotionless tone of nearly every character and it's meh. I recently rewatched all of Deadwood and the difference is quality is abysmal between the two.

Well, Deadwood is only the best show ever, so that's a pretty fucking high bar. GoT is a third tier HBO show. And I say that with no intended disrespect to GoT, which is a fine show.

[1stStrike]

I just got a chance to watch episode 7 last night. I gotta say, the scene between Tyrion and Cersei was fantastic. They both pulled that off really well. I really feel bad for Tyrion - the only one with his wits about him in the castle, and despite his best attempts everything just goes wrong.

[andycapps]

Winter is coming is the slogan of the House of Stark. As a non-book reader, I understand it to mean that the Starks are always prepared for hard times, and they are ever aware of a dark time which has recently passed. So the winter encompasses both the preparation for war and suffering, as well as the unknown forces (wildlings, dragons, and other things that bring chaos and destruction). Basically the unknown and the world beyond the wall.

You pretty much have it right. Not trying to give anything big away, but the Starks "dominion" was up in the north and they were the closest of the lords to the Wall. So there's the Nights Watch, and then there's them, and then everyone else is further south. So the Starks are more familiar with past winters, and with the problems that come with them. It's also harder for them to farm up there, IIRC, and so they really have to plan ahead for the winter. Winters in that universe last years.

The "wight" that Jon Snow killed in season 1 is a small taste of what winter will bring. The rest of the kingdom in the south doesn't really believe any of it because most of them weren't alive when the last winter came, which is why the Night's Watch sent the wight's arm to Cersei/Joffrey.. They want them to take the threat seriously. And they know that it'll start above the wall where it's colder, and then the cold will gradually creep further south.

If anyone thinks that these are major spoilers, let me know and I'll tag them.

[PairOfFilthySocks]

It doesn't help that the actress is taller than most of the cast either. :lol

In that scene she has with the queen just after her first period, she's so big she looks like she could beat the living shit out of Cersei.

[NathanMcMahon]

So how do we account for the continuing positive, and oftentimes glowing, recaps and reviews each week from critics who watch a lot of TV? Are these critics lying to themselves or their readers? There seems to be a huge disconnect between what some people here feel about the quality of the show and what the general public and the critics feel about it. I'm genuinely curious to know why that is.

Because they are professionals, really. They also have to analyze the show as its own entity and try to avoid the baggage of what came before. It also just comes down to opinion and there prevailing opinion is that it is a critical darling and very well-received by the public and critics alike, irregardless of the wailing and gnashing from a very minority hard-core fanbase who will never be happy.

[Duane Cunningham]

Spoileriffic shit

Dude, come ON.

3rdman, you too. Don't just give shit away. Go back and spoiler your posts.

COKNo matter how obvious you geniuses think the Bran and Rickon fakeout is, book readers (though many probably suspect it) still won't know for sure until the show reveals it.

[Forsaken82]

So i am not sure if t his has been touched on yet, but i am starting to wonder, seeing as how so much seems to be changed in dany's storyline from the book, what is the possibility that since shes met Pyat Pree shes (ACOK) actually been seeing visions from the house of the undying. I don't expect the house of the undying to be the acid trip event that it was in the book since it would require to much spoken inner monologue to make sense of everything that is happening, but they could easily rewrite it in such a way that it represents her worst nightmare... in this case losing her dragons and the majority of her Khalasar dead

Just a thought...

[dead souls]

Even if you disregard the books completely, this show fares poorly when compared to HBO's greats. The problem is that there's simply too much shit going on for its own good, the cast of characters is massive, they are all spread too thin to have any semblance of proper character development. There are no running themes in any of the episodes, it's just going through the motions. Add in the bland direction/editing and mostly stoic/emotionless tone of nearly every character and it's meh. I recently rewatched all of Deadwood and the difference is quality is abysmal between the two.

So much truth in this post. We're talking about the network that is responsible for (among other things) The Sopranos, The Wire, Deadwood, In Treatment, Curb Your Enthusiasm, and the better seasons of Six Feet Under and Oz.

Game of Thrones is decent, but it can't even begin to compare favorably with what HBO is capable of at its best.

[gutshot]

So i am not sure if t his has been touched on yet, but i am starting to wonder, seeing as how so much seems to be changed in dany's storyline from the book, what is the possibility that since shes met Pyat Pree shes (ACOK) actually been seeing visions from the house of the undying. I don't expect the house of the undying to be the acid trip event that it was in the book since it would require to much spoken inner monologue to make sense of everything that is happening, but they could easily rewrite it in such a way that it represents her worst nightmare... in this case losing her dragons and the majority of her Khalasar dead Just a thought...

I don't think that is the case because in the synopsis for ep20 it says "Dany goes to a strange place". That almost certainly is referring to the House of the Undying.

[Forsaken82]

I don't think that is the case because in the synopsis for ep20 it says "Dany goes to a strange place". That almost certainly is referring to the House of the Undying.

well never mind then! fuck you future episode synopsis! Ill be curious to see how they turn 90% inner monologue into understandable television

[Lothar]

Because they are professionals, really. They also have to analyze the show as its own entity and try to avoid the baggage of what came before. It also just comes down to opinion and there prevailing opinion is that it is a critical darling and very well-received by the public and critics alike, irregardless of the wailing and gnashing from a very minority hard-core fanbase who will never be happy.

It is opinion but on one side we have people making legitimate points and on the other we have people going "You guys will just never be happy" or "look at these critics" or "you all only want to be just like the books!" or "HA you guys are in the minority"

[frequency]

Speaking of it being an adaptation, I wonder if it would be better if they just... drop some characters. Maybe not completely, but let them be side characters. And just focus on the big ones. Like just focus on the Starks, Tyrion, and Dany (ugh).

Don't spend your valuable time building Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, random prostitutes, Theon (which would be a loss because he's been soooo good), Catelyn, etc.

Like, basically just do an adaptation of certain POVs. And give everyone else a minor supporting role. Then it would be less confusing and gives the general audience a manageable cast of main characters. People who really care and want to know more then have the books to learn more about the other characters.

[Zabka]

I like Tyrion. He's sassy.

[Andrex]

The show is great, my problem with it is that the episodes aren't really focused. At least not for most of this season. It feels like s1 had a better handle on "OK, the point of this episode is..."

[AngryMoth]

Speaking of it being an adaptation, I wonder if it would be better if they just... drop some characters. Maybe not completely, but let them be side characters. And just focus on the big ones. Like just focus on the Starks, Tyrion, and Dany (ugh). Don't spend your valuable time building Joffrey, Cersei, Tywin, random prostitutes, Theon (which would be a loss because he's been soooo good), Catelyn, etc. Like, basically just do an adaptation of certain POVs. And give everyone else a minor supporting role. Then it would be less confusing and gives the general audience a manageable cast of main characters. People who really care and want to know more then have the books to learn more about the other characters.

I pains me a little bit to say this but I do think as a tv show it would be better off as you say, narrowing the cast and playing much more fast and loose with the source material. Keep the tone, some of the iconic events and don't change the characters, but break away from the structure of the book. I agree with Jett's criticisms that the show is spread too thin; episodes lack focus and there isn't enough time to generate any significant momentum for forward progression in a single story line when they're cutting between 5 or 6 different ones per episode. I think this is an insurmountable problem which is only going to get worse, and if the show does want to aspire to a place in the HBO pantheon it needs to do something about it.

As the Gutshot's point about the positive reviews the show receives, the answer is...well I don't know, but am glad that clearly most people are enjoying it. What I do know though is that there's been a whole host of legitimate criticisms of the show over the last few pages (many of which have nothing to do with book comparisons) that have been labeled as 'bitching' without any genuine rebuttals. I think maybe people are more lenient because of the show's huge ambition and production values, but I don't understand how anyone could hold up the writing, direction of structure (this season) to some of tv's top shows like Breaking Bad and say it comes out favourably.

edit: on a different note, I'm pleased to see the non-book thread has fully embraced Hodor and his awesomeness in spite of his appalling lack of screen time :P

[i_am_not_jon_ames]

So how do we account for the continuing positive, and oftentimes glowing, recaps and reviews each week from critics who watch a lot of TV? Are these critics lying to themselves or their readers? There seems to be a huge disconnect between what some people here feel about the quality of the show and what the general public and the critics feel about it. I'm genuinely curious to know why that is.

Yeah, I'm really disappointed in this thread now. Would always be psyched to see it on pg1 and read whatever the latest shit was, but as someone just said, it's mostly bitching at this point. Really a shame.

[apana]

So how do we account for the continuing positive, and oftentimes glowing, recaps and reviews each week from critics who watch a lot of TV? Are these critics lying to themselves or their readers? There seems to be a huge disconnect between what some people here feel about the quality of the show and what the general public and the critics feel about it. I'm genuinely curious to know why that is.

I assume most of the critics are experiencing these brilliant stories for the first time, while those who have read the books can't be satisfied by just the surprises and plot twists. I honestly don't care about most of these changes. The problem is when they change something truly important. We still have more episodes to go but it looks as if [ACOK] they have completely altered Jon's journey with the Halfhand. They have more episodes to redeem themselves, but if they don't manage to capture that part of Clash of Kings, I think they have definitely done a disservice to Jon's storyline.

[UraMallas]

I know Cornballer isn't here so did anyone else post this? http://winteriscoming.net/2012/05/in...als-unchanged/

I'm afraid for Memorial Day episode. It should be the absolute best for a wide audience, considering what it is about. I just hope that the Memorial Day weekend doesn't have people grilling and drinking too much to forget about GoT.

[rhfb]

I'm afraid for Memorial Day episode. It should be the absolutely best for a wide-audience considering what it is about. I just hope that the Memorial Day weekend doesn't have people grilling and drinking too much to forget about GoT.

They should just run the episode 8 or 9 times :p That way people can't forget.

[Zabka]

I'm afraid for Memorial Day episode. It should be the absolutely best for a wide-audience considering what it is about. I just hope that the Memorial Day weekend doesn't have people grilling and drinking too much to forget about GoT.

Luckily GoT is not subject to the whims of time slot ratings. Total viewership for the week through replays, On Demand and HBO Go are equally important.

[aceface]

I HATE it when shows show you something interesting at the first episode, then pretend they never mentioned it- only to FUCKING hint at it at the last episode or as a premier for the next season. I am talking about the stupid fucking winter that is supposedly coming since fucking day one. And then they have the audacity to use that phrase for the second season posters. Also, WTF is going on? The first few episodes shows a clear story. Now, all I am getting are what feel like stand alone random episodes where the ONLY interesting thing happening in an hour is the last 30 fucking seconds aaaaaand then they forget about it the next episode. WTF is going on here? 2nd season is almost over and NOTHING fucking major happened!

"winter is coming" is not supposed to be taken completely literally, it's a metaphor for the difficulties the characters go through, especially the Starks since its their motto. This is not rocket science.

[Emerson]

I think maybe people are more lenient because of the show's huge ambition and production values, but I don't understand how anyone could hold up the writing, direction of structure (this season) to some of tv's top shows like Breaking Bad and say it comes out favourably.

Nobody is saying that in the first place despite the fact that people like to complain about people saying it. Sure, I've seen it occasionally in other threads on GAF, but the person saying it is almost always shot down. This show is not as good as Breaking Bad, The Wire, or Deadwood. That doesn't make it a bad show.

[evilromero]

Finally got to watch this last episode and I really enjoyed it. I didn't feel any of the negative elements listed here in this thread, and I'm a big fan of the books. I thought this episode was great personally, especially that disturbing ending, which to people who haven't read the book would seem damn depressing!.

[AngryMoth]

Nobody is saying that in the first place despite the fact that people like to complain about people saying it. Sure, I've seen it occasionally in other threads on GAF, but the person saying it is almost always shot down. This show is not as good as Breaking Bad, The Wire, or Deadwood. That doesn't make it a bad show.

I feel it was pretty close last year. Season 1 was truly excellent imo, which is the basis for my disappointment with season 2 (so far). Also my point was more directed at the assertion of quality based of the mostly glowing reviews the show gets rather than specific people here.

[i_am_not_jon_ames]

I'm afraid for Memorial Day episode. It should be the absolutely best for a wide-audience considering what it is about. I just hope that the Memorial Day weekend doesn't have people grilling and drinking too much to forget about GoT.

Don't they usually skip holiday weekends and air it the following week?

[Emerson]

I feel it was pretty close last year. Season 1 was truly excellent imo, which is the basis for my disappointment with season 2 (so far)

So now you've gone from arguing against people comparing this show to those shows to saying you were the one doing so yourself.