[Lancehead]

I only say what I said because I hope that people would give more pause when they throw dollars at a project.

Your posts are insulting to those who are funding. Stop assuming they're being careless, and throwing money away.

[Victrix]

I said this before but its worth restating:

If I fund four gaming projects in a year for $15 and three out of those four are crap but one is good to great, I'm completely happy with that

Now if all four are crap, that's a problem, but we'll see if thats the case in a few years eh?

$60 to buy a game I actually want made instead of what publishers want made? Yes please.

[duckroll]

Like I said, I'd rather people research their investments.

And I also did see that Brian Fargo's only Fallout involvement is Fallout Tactics....

Hmmm.... I'll also rather people research their posts.

[subversus]

Like I said, I'd rather people research their investments. Or are you saying that's a bad thing?

I consider both projects to be detailed enough to invest my money in them.

Double Fine:

-point and click quest done in classic fashion
-the game will be made by those who gave the genre its birth and didn't make a single bad game in this genre
-transparent development
-the studio is a legal entity and can be sued

Wasteland:

-isometric turn-based rpg being done in one of my favourite settings
-the veteran of the genre responsible for producing my favourite games participates in this
-the original team with strong pedigree is on board
-game mechanics and core principles I care about were detailed in numerous interviews
-transparent development
-the studio is a legal entity and can be sued

[oneils]

We're talking an average of $15. Usually with these types of projects, it's games that would never have been made anyway. I'd say that's a risk worth taking.

Lol! Is that all it is? 15 bucks?

I had kind of assumed that it was about matching projects with investments, and not a hybrid pre-order/charity system. Lol. Well that clears that up.

[Polk]

The only danger I see is if there will be more and more bigger projects.
Projects that require multimillion budget and/or 2+ years development. Those projects are more prone to failure than small quick projects.
Wasteland 2 is already pushing the boundaries, but it got pass because it's almost "real" Fallout 3.

[duckroll]

The only danger I see is if there will be more and more bigger projects. Projects that require multimillion budget and/or 2+ years development. Those projects are more prone to failure than small quick projects. Wasteland 2 is already pushing the boundaries, but it got pass because it's almost "real" Fallout 3.

I don't really see the danger there either. I definitely would not want to fund a 10 million dollar project with a 2-3 year development cycle. I would put in exactly 0 dollars in that. If other people want to put money into that, I think that's fine too. If they get burned by it, they will be less willing to do it the next time round. If they don't get burned by it, it shows that it could actually be viable as long as people are interested or motivated to fund such a project.

[Pachterballs]

Like I said, I'd rather people research their investments. Or are you saying that's a bad thing?

nah. you're suggesting with this post that people don't "research their investments". but you're the one clearly with no idea.

also insulting as lancehead said.

[thefro]

The other thing to remember is if one of these companies has a kickstarter and releases a completely crappy game, it's going to hurt their reputation as a developer so badly that it might even be the end of their company.

[Tim-E]

And I also did see that Brian Fargo's only Fallout involvement is Fallout Tactics....

LOL

[Aaron]

3 million or so is the ceiling for these kind of projects. Developers might be able to drum up more if it was something like Square doing a remake of Final Fantasy 7, but outside of crazy stuff like that these are going to be XBLA scale games.

[kittens]

As long as one of the ~$50 incentives is to get a copy of the game, I'm okay with it.

[JWong]

Hmmm.... I'll also rather people research their posts.

Meh, I relied on Mobygames and his wiki.

My bad, he didn't have any development involvement except for publishing when I thought he was involved in developing, at least, Fallout Tactics.

[Derrick01]

I'll never support it because I feel like my role as a consumer is not to be the investor/publisher and there can be quite a bit of risk involved but what people do with their money is their problem.

If I ever did donate the max I'd give is $50-$60 and then I'd expect the game for "free". Otherwise I'll just wait until the game's out, see if it's any good first and then maybe spend the $50 there.

[duckroll]

Meh, I relied on Mobygames and his wiki. My bad, he didn't have any development involvement except for publishing when I thought he was involved in developing, at least, Fallout Tactics.

You really need to stop talking out of your ass.

[Xater]

I'll never support it because I feel like my role as a consumer is not to be the investor/publisher and there can be quite a bit of risk involved but what people do with their money is their problem. If I ever did donate the max I'd give is $50-$60 and then I'd expect the game for "free". Otherwise I'll just wait until the game's out, see if it's any good first and then maybe spend the $50 there.

But your are always getting the game....

[Haunted]

Meh, I relied on Mobygames and his wiki. My bad, he didn't have any development involvement except for publishing when I thought he was involved in developing, at least, Fallout Tactics.

Damnit son, you can't go around being disrespectful to Brian Fargo like that.

I'll never support it because I feel like my role as a consumer is not to be the investor/publisher and there can be quite a bit of risk involved but what people do with their money is their problem. If I ever did donate the max I'd give is $50-$60 and then I'd expect the game for "free". Otherwise I'll just wait until the game's out, see if it's any good first and then maybe spend the $50 there.

But that's... exactly how this works. I gave $15 to the DoubleFine Kickstarter and I'm getting the game.

The reward tier system is pretty genius because it allows you to pick and choose just how much you want to commit: your level of investment is rewarded accordingly and there's no ambiguity about what you're getting.

[V_Arnold]

There is no danger.

The normal customers (normal being those that are not heavily invested in any game BEFORE it is available) are not interested in "funding" anyway. Those however, that desperately want to enjoy a NEW product in a genre they PREFER, from the developer that they LOVE, it is a wonderful new opportunity.

Kickstarter's popularity means: the fans that demand not AAA-level production values, but good gameplay now have a means to put their money where their mouth is. And that is amazing, I think.

At worst, it is a cheap game's preorder. At best, it is a way for you to enjoy new things - and you actually helped the project to materialize.

[duckroll]

I'll never support it because I feel like my role as a consumer is not to be the investor/publisher and there can be quite a bit of risk involved but what people do with their money is their problem. If I ever did donate the max I'd give is $50-$60 and then I'd expect the game for "free". Otherwise I'll just wait until the game's out, see if it's any good first and then maybe spend the $50 there.

You should actually check out how these Kickstarter projects work. You don't sound completely opposed to the concept either. I'm not saying you should definitely put money into them, but it's quite not what you think.

For both the Double Fine and Wasteland 2 Kickstarters, putting in just $15 will get you the game on Steam when it's out. Higher reward tiers include additional goodies as the price goes up, including boxed copies, signed posters, and other shit. It's packaged a lot like a long-term pre-order. The only difference is, these games won't exist without the support.

[Ronabo]

I could actually get behind this if it were for something that wouldn't get released otherwise. Like if EA did it for Mass Effect 3, no way. But if someone decided to grant my years-old wish and this was the only way to get Capcom to make a new Gun.Smoke, then oh yes. But then, that could be done through just on-site preorders via the company without kickstarter involvement, too.

I thought your years-old wish was a new Berzerk?

[androvsky]

I'm just looking forward to localization companies getting on board. I know MonkeyPaw has been teasing something with Vic Ireland, but they've been delaying the announcement, presumably so they don't get lost in all the other Kickstarter stuff that went on last week. With localizations, the final product is a known quantity and the required investment should be a lot lower than making a game from scratch.

I do hope that the enthusiasm for Kickstarter projects doesn't backfire when the big projects don't turn out exactly how people were imagining. At the moment, the Double Fine project is a genre and a designer, hopefully everyone survives the first release of artwork.

[JWong]

You really need to stop talking out of your ass.

Goddamn son, stop being disrespectful to Brian Fargo like this! Research the guy.

No disrespect. It says that he was head of Interplay when it published the Fallout games.

It also specifically said he had no direct involvement.

Am I suppose to be reading this as something else?

[AwShucks]

There's been like two big (i.e. well known) Kickstarter campaigns for games (that I can think of).

I don't really consider that a trend.

[Derrick01]

You should actually check out how these Kickstarter projects work. You don't sound completely opposed to the concept either. I'm not saying you should definitely put money into them, but it's quite not what you think. For both the Double Fine and Wasteland 2 Kickstarters, putting in just $15 will get you the game on Steam when it's out. Higher reward tiers include additional goodies as the price goes up, including boxed copies, signed posters, and other shit. It's packaged a lot like a long-term pre-order. The only difference is, these games won't exist without the support.

Right and it sounds like that particular one is going to definitely happen since the support was so huge. But in some lesser cases they may run out of support or who knows what would happen and my money is gone. I'd much rather just buy the game if it does comes out because there's no risk on my end.

[jvm]

I appreciate Stumpokapow's post quite a bit. It reads as a bit of a defense at the end, but the informational part is excellent.

However, I think the concern that I have (and perhaps others) is that the great majority of people who drop $15 or more on a Kickstarter project haven't been as discerning as Stumpokapow. Are the big projects funded by people who have put as much time into their research as he?

If every investor were as careful, there would be no problem. But on the internet, where ill-directed energy causes trouble on a regular basis, there seems to be a potential for sullying the system to the point that it cannot produce even for projects which are rational and likely to succeed.

Edit: JWong, I don't know if you realized, but Wasteland (1988) was designed in part by Brian Fargo. The Fallout series is a kind of unofficial set of sequels, if you will. So his involvement in well-regarded projects goes back quite a ways, particularly of this type in this kind of universe.

[duckroll]

Right and it sounds like that particular one is going to definitely happen since the support was so huge. But in some lesser cases they may run out of support or who knows what would happen and my money is gone. I'd much rather just buy the game if it does comes out because there's no risk on my end.

No, that's not how it works either. If the funding target is not met, no one is ever charged any money. The credit card charge is only made after the funding period is over and if the project has raised up to or above the target amount.

No disrespect. It says that he was head of Interplay when it published the Fallout games. It also specifically said he had no direct involvement. Am I suppose to be reading this as something else?

Fargo is the founder of Interplay (which was a developer first before being a publisher). He was also instrumental in the creation of Fallout. Yes, he wasn't on the development team itself, but he put the team together, he approved major decisions, specified the tone of the game (it was intended to be a follow up to Wasteland after all, a game he DID have a major role in developing), and he was also the one who came up with the title for the game.

[Pachterballs]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1188275304/frank

I personally think this KS is cool and I might chip in.

simple idea, really cool. beautiful simple design

[Derrick01]

No, that's not how it works either. If the funding target is not met, no one is ever charged any money. The credit card charge is only made after the funding period is over and if the project has raised up to or above the target amount.

Oh that I didn't know but I'm relieved to see it. If the right project came along now I could probably feel better about funding it.

[duckroll]

Oh that I didn't know but I'm relieved to see it. If the right project came along now I could probably feel better about funding it.

Yeah I can see why it's not an entirely attractive notion for most people unless the project is just right, but Kickstarter has some pretty good rules, which makes it a lot more comfortable for people to support.

[JWong]

Fargo is the founder of Interplay (which was a developer first before being a publisher). He was also instrumental in the creation of Fallout. Yes, he wasn't on the development team itself, but he put the team together, he approved major decisions, specified the tone of the game (it was intended to be a follow up to Wasteland after all, a game he DID have a major role in developing), and he was also the one who came up with the title for the game.

It's almost exactly what I said, but I guess since I excluded Wasteland from my points, it made it look like I didn't know that Fallout inherited a lot from his game.

I know his works, I played Wasteland. Not disrespecting him in any way, but I know the role differences between publishers and developers.

[duckroll]

I know his works, I played Wasteland. Not disrespecting him in any way, but I know the role differences between publishers and developers.

But Interplay published and developed both Fallout and Fallout 2.

[Tylahedras]

Yeah I can see why it's not an entirely attractive notion for most people unless the project is just right, but Kickstarter has some pretty good rules, which makes it a lot more comfortable for people to support.

I very vocally complained about it when it started out, but after taking a look at Kickstarter itself as opposed the just the project I do feel somewhat more confortable about it. They really have done a good job streamlining rules to at least try to stop abuse and project failure.

I still think it's silly to ever give money for an unfinished product, but again it's much safer with kickstarter then I initially thought.

[Earthstrike]

I definitely feel the way the OP does. I think another theoretical problem kickstarter might have is the fact that it might end up inhibiting new I.P. development. If publishers see it as viable to simply have a kickstarter sponsored sequel instead of trying something new then fiscal jurisprudence may dictate how frequently we end up seeing developers taking risks with new franchises.

[duckroll]

I definitely feel the way the OP does. I think another theoretical problem kickstarter might have is the fact that it might end up inhibiting new I.P. development. If publishers see it as viable to simply have a kickstarter sponsored sequel instead of trying something new then fiscal jurisprudence may dictate how frequently we end up seeing developers taking risks with new franchises.

Really? That's a problem? How? Double Fine just raised 3.3 million dollars for a brand new IP.

[Victrix]

Kickstarter isn't raising AAA money yet, not even close. It might, in the future, but I'm far more comfortable funding tiny to small projects through it.

[Stumpokapow]

Right and it sounds like that particular one is going to definitely happen since the support was so huge. But in some lesser cases they may run out of support or who knows what would happen and my money is gone. I'd much rather just buy the game if it does comes out because there's no risk on my end.

I don't think you quite get how Kickstarter works. When someone starts a Kickstarter project, they disclose how much money they need to make the project happen. So, if you're building a statue of George W. Bush eating a hamburger, and that's going to cost you $29,000 (design, autocad, 1/8th scale model, raw bronze, shipping, etc), you ask for $29,000. When people give money to a Kickstarter, they aren't on the hook for anything until the total funding amount exceeds what's being asked for. So if I give $5,000 to this clearly well thought out project and no one else bites, it's not going to cost me anything.

Projects should be immune from "running out of support", because they've already allocated to their project the minimum it takes to get the job done. Of course someone could radically mis-estimate the budget they need, but that would require someone not having a handle on their own project. Almost every KS out there has a specific timeline, a specific breakdown of costs (internal versus external, how much they're funding versus how much you're funding). I'd like to say that people would know the difference for projects that are manifestly unprepared to get the job done, but I've honestly never seen any.

Actually, that's a lie, the multi-millionaire lottery winner who is asking for a million dollars to make an MMO is clearly way over his head, but that's literally the first project I've seen on Kickstarter in a year that's so clearly unable to grasp their own needs that sends up huge red flags.

Do you think you could look on the site and find a project you think is a flim-flam job or an amateur hour thing? I'm going to spend 15 minutes in the "Most Popular" Game projects category and see what I find...

Wasteland 2 - Commercial team with many games released, designer with a long industry history, very specific development length listed.

FTL - IGF nominated, asked for $10k got $100k+, demo was available on OnLive, cost breakdown listed on KS project (project going ahead with or without KS money, money being used for external contractors and polish time), clear system requirements, obviously at a very advanced level already

Hardcore Tactical Shooter - Asking for $200k, being run by a small team of industry veterans, team lead was a Senior/Lead designer with Ubisoft, Bungie, they have non-Kickstarter VC investors.

Artisan Dice - Guy trying to make nice looking dice from fancy wood. Requested $300. Hand-made in the guy's garage. I'm pretty sure he already owns a band saw, so there's no risk that the $300 won't cover his "costs".

Zpocalypse Board Game - Already playtested and ongoing playtests scheduled at board game shops everywhere, won awards, large social media presence including on Board Game Geek, components seem to be in a relatively advanced state (video shows), "Springboard" award certifies it's not a fly-by-night scam, team seems to cover all major roles in board game production

Mobile Frame Zero Rapid Attack - Some sort of live action war-game using lego robots? Already has a publisher, playtested, obviously at a pretty advanced stage of construction, designer previously successfully funded and delivered projects on Kickstarter, project set to be delivered in June (very advanced stage of development)

Auditorium 2 - Sequel to game you can buy/play now that was critically acclaimed. Team developed multiple previous games. Clear budget (studio of 4 * 3-4 months of salary + business costs = $60,000). Pretty short development time.

Dungeon Map Poster - For D&D I guess? Author has previous posters, poster already designed, you're just paying to get printing funded. Physical materials and size described well. Designer did work for Gary Gygax Memorial Fund, suggesting he has a record in the D&D scene.

Velociraptor Cannibalism - Board game. Placeholder components already available, game already playtested, tons of art updates, outline of rules/mechanics available now, clear explanation of budget--game already designed, need to pay an artist $4000 to get final art, they're taking care of printing themselves.

Agents of Smersh - Role-playing / board game. Review / testimonial from the designer of one of the most popular board games around right now. Clear cost and component breakdown. Already partially playtested.

Return of the Deck of the Living Dead - Custom art playing cards, the art is done, they have a publisher, art samples available. Tried as a Kickstarter project before, they failed, they make a note of this and explain why their budget is different this time.

Idle Thumbs - Return of a well-loved podcast by a bunch of professionals, reasonably detailed explanations of cost provided in multiple different places

High Score 3rd Edition - Game history book. Testimonial from Will Wright and John Romero. Clear cost breakdown. Clear timeline breakdown. 2nd edition already exists. Author has written 60+ books (many strategy guides) and ran Prima's strategy guide division.

Fleet - Card game with naval theme. Clear mechanics, videos of final or near-final components, they have a publisher (Gryphon) known for high quality games.

Spectrum Playing Cards - Professional magician making special deck of playing cards. Art already done. Guy uses the cards in his own routine already. Clear cost/price explanation.

Escape from the Temple Curse - Board/dice game. Developers have made at least 7 other board games, 15 year history of publishing, date of release is Jun 2012. Not clear if they've finalized art or production stuff but given the aforementioned, I'd say they have.

... Feminist Playing Cards - 52 feminist musicians drawn by 14 feminist artists. Artists listed by name and linked to. Goal is tied to actual production cost. 5 or 6 of the drawings are shown, the rest of the musicians are listed. Production date is May 2012. Author seems to be a queer support/resource organization.

Dwimmermount: Old School Fantasy RPG - Clear description of game, clear description of budget, writing seems to be done, author is running campaigns of the game over Google+, numerous public playtests, publisher seems legit

Bacillus - Weird amateur video game focusing around evolution or ecology or something? I don't get it. May 2012 beta release date, seems to be at a pretty advanced stage of development.

Building an Elder God - Lovecraft-inspired card game, game is already done and ready with final components, cost going entirely towards printing the thing, author has long experience with making games.

Where are these uncertain projects? Where are the amateur hour stuff? Who are the people getting scammed? All of these projects to me seem detailed, clear, reasonable, well-budgeted, and professional looking. I'm not saying some of these might not succeed or might not rip people off, but it's hardly the wasteland of marauders and snake oil salesmen people would have you believe it is. The projects are by and large well explained and reasonable.

I mean, it's nice that everyone is cautious and looking out so that others don't get robbed, but... where are the robbers? I mean, I just listed 20 projects, plus another 12 in my last post in this thread. Everyone other than me seems to just be talking about inXile and Double Fine for some reason. There are plenty of examples out there, tons and tons of projects from the last year and a half. This isn't some new, unproven thing. :p

[Lancehead]

I definitely feel the way the OP does. I think another theoretical problem kickstarter might have is the fact that it might end up inhibiting new I.P. development. If publishers see it as viable to simply have a kickstarter sponsored sequel instead of trying something new then fiscal jurisprudence may dictate how frequently we end up seeing developers taking risks with new franchises.

I believe most kickstarter projects are new IP. It's quite far-fetched to think publishers would try to use this. Kickstarter has been for developers who can't get approval from publishers. Even if they do use it, it makes more sense for them to go for new IP because new IP carries an element of risk. And if it does get funded, I don't see any problem with that.

[Rad-]

wait until Kotick gets on the band wagon;

Holy shit why wasn't this quoted more?

[chubigans]

I do need to write an article about my experience (maybe next month) but I had a Kickstarter project that was successfully funded (very small, only 1k) that I ended up not being able to complete (the game's quality ended up not being as good as I had hoped, and I had to make the decision of completing a mediocre game or axing the whole thing altogether). I ended up breaking the TOS and issuing refunds to people, which axed my Amazon Payments account but at that point I didn't care. My main priority was making people whole again.

There's obviously a lot more to it than that, but being funded by Kickstarter was incredibly tense because I felt this overbearing sense of responsibility to fulfill what my backer's paid for, as I should have. I will never do it again. But for some, it works, and that's great.

[charlequin]

It simply doesn't seem like a stable system.

It's stable for smaller projects. People had this kind of concern about the idea of Kickstarter to begin with, and it turned out to be a non-issue: people have seen that some projects are better thought-out than others, that some just fail entirely to get funded, that others get funded and don't turn out as well as hoped, and that all this is just part of what KS is so funders should take it into account before pledging.

Is there a reason you don't think it would scale up?

Of course it's going to implode soon. Just look at all the Indie bundles that show up. Every thread people mention they just don't keep up with any of them.

See, I think this is actually a great example. People talk about how they've got "bundle fatigue" or whatever now, but in practice what we've actually seen is people voting with their wallet in a very sensible way. Many of these fly-by-night also-ran bundles have had trouble taking off and have failed to get much traction (and the awfully run Indie Gala has screwed itself pretty bad on their latest promotion); conversely, Indie Royale (who run a fairly tight ship and do bundles mixing moderately-known and completely unknown indie titles) have been able to consistently move 40,000 of each new bundle even after "fatigue" set in, and Humble Bundle 4 (well after people had started complaining about the trend) was far and away the most successful yet, on the back of its superstar lineup.

I'm sure things will be the same way with Kickstarter. People who get their shit together and make a good pitch, with a reasonable execution plan and a good sense that they'll actually complete their project, will keep getting funded; people who don't won't.

[Derrick01]

Extremely large post

Ok ok I've already been proven wrong and educated but thank you anyway lol

If I were to jump on one it would be that rumored planescape 2 but Obsidian's in quite the mess right now :(

[Stumpokapow]

I mean, another thing is, look at how many options Kickstarter has that direct you towards curated content.

You go to the site. You see curated content picked by the Kickstarter people (presumably because it's a secure, good idea). You scroll to the bottom and you see curated collections of projects picked by design firms and other professionals. You can sign up for a newsletter, which contains curated content. At the top of the page, the main navigation has two links that get you to projects. One is the blog, where they highlight particular content and go more in depth with certain creators. Again, curation. The other is "Discover".

You click on "Discover" and the first three things you see are staff picks, the next six things you see are "popular this week"--both forms of curation that help ensure the projects you see are legitimate. You have to scroll multiple pages to get to random content.

On the right side you see Staff Picks and Popular are the first two navigation options, which are curated. Most Funded is curated. Curated Pages are curated. Only "Recently Launched", "Ending Soon", and "Small Projects" are uncurated and Small Projects are of such a scope that they generally have near-immediate turnaround and you aren't likely to get burned on them. You can pick by category. Each category presents Staff Picks and Most Popular to you first.

You really need to dig on the site and really intentionally wander off the beaten path to find projects that don't already have someone's stamp of approval. Once you donate you can rescind your donation at any point before approval, and no one gets money unless the funding goal is met.

Obviously you can search or wander off and find a bunch of random stuff and give your money away, but for the vast, vast, vast majority of users they are either using Kickstarter's curation methods to navigate or they're coming to the site for a specific project they heard about off-site--in which case implying that they have some investment in the specific idea and they've done some sort of off-site "research" (I wouldn't characterize me reading a few blurbs before I hand over my cash as research, but two people have characterized it that way in this thread). I don't think there's an army of people randomly browsing Kickstarter handing over cash willy-nilly.

[hey_it's_that_dog]

I appreciate Stumpokapow's post quite a bit. It reads as a bit of a defense at the end, but the informational part is excellent. However, I think the concern that I have (and perhaps others) is that the great majority of people who drop $15 or more on a Kickstarter project haven't been as discerning as Stumpokapow. Are the big projects funded by people who have put as much time into their research as he? If every investor were as careful, there would be no problem. But on the internet, where ill-directed energy causes trouble on a regular basis, there seems to be a potential for sullying the system to the point that it cannot produce even for projects which are rational and likely to succeed. Edit: JWong, I don't know if you realized, but Wasteland (1988) was designed in part by Brian Fargo. The Fallout series is a kind of unofficial set of sequels, if you will. So his involvement in well-regarded projects goes back quite a ways, particularly of this type in this kind of universe.

I certainly agree with the premise that not everyone is thinking carefully about what they invest in, but I'm having trouble seeing how that leads to the system breaking down. I suppose if enough people were disenchanted by the results of their donations, they'd stop donating, but won't there always be a core contingent of thoughtful contributors who continue to fund projects that seem well planned?

I'm conceptualizing the less-considered investments as random noise in the signal, and as such they don't necessarily steer the market in any particular direction. Can you say more about the mechanism by which careless users make the system worse or untenable in the future?

[tokkun]

Projects should be immune from "running out of support", because they've already allocated to their project the minimum it takes to get the job done. Of course someone could radically mis-estimate the budget they need, but that would require someone not having a handle on their own project. Almost every KS out there has a specific timeline, a specific breakdown of costs (internal versus external, how much they're funding versus how much you're funding). I'd like to say that people would know the difference for projects that are manifestly unprepared to get the job done, but I've honestly never seen any.

That seems like an awfully optimistic view. The world is full of examples of projects, both video game and otherwise, that significantly exceed their original budget. Project timelines must also be produced to sell a project to investors, and I don't feel particularly confident that the average Kickstarter funder has better means of assessing the feasibility of such timelines than the average publisher/investor.

The smaller scope of KS games may make it easier to accurately estimate a timeline, but it also makes them more vulnerable to problems if they lose a key staff member for whatever reason. Let's wait until we have a proven track record of success for these projects before declaring them immune from risk of funding mismanagement.

[Stumpokapow]

That seems like an awfully optimistic view. The world is full of examples of projects, both video game and otherwise, that significantly exceed their original budget. Project timelines must also be produced to sell a project to investors, and I don't feel particularly confident that the average Kickstarter funder has better means of assessing the feasibility of such timelines than the average publisher/investor. The smaller scope of KS games may make it easier to accurately estimate a timeline, but it also makes them more vulnerable to problems if they lose a key staff member for whatever reason. Let's wait until we have a proven track record of success for these projects before declaring them immune from risk is funding mismanagement.

Isn't the last 2.5 years a track record? Kickstarter didn't start with Double Fine, and it's not limited to Video Games.

I mean, if you want, I can grab you 25 big projects from 2009-2010 that shipped (relatively) on time and had a steady flow of information after funding, to the point that investors would have no reason for worry--but I'm not really sure why the burden of proof is on me in this case.

[kami_sama]

Kotaku just posted an article about Kickstarter:
http://kotaku.com/5894315/could-kick...ith-publishers

A bit speculative, but IMO a good read.

[Strummerjones]

Moving away from isometric top down is an improvement for narrative sake. I agree it's not an improvement for a strategy RPG. I do too, but I don't discount that all 30-40 gamers will be able to remember it as well as we do, especially with all the Fallout games of current.

I love the idea that 30 - 40 year olds wander around in some kind of alzheimers haze, unsure if that Wasteland 2 game they just bet their life savings on (because it's all or nothing on a project you can donate as little as a dollar to) was a sequel to a game they enjoyed in their distant youth, or just a type of breakfast cereal.

I personally made a donation to this project because it's a chance to put my money where my mouth is. I'm increasingly disinterested in the formulaic junk being spunked out by the big names in the games industry, and here's a chance for something completely different, some unfinished business by some of the most respected names in their field. But I realise it's only a chance . If I wanted to exercise "good business sense" I could have invested that money in a hundred more sensible ways. I might get a terrible game in return for it, I might even get nothing . But fuck it, I made my stand in the only way I can as a largely powerless consumer - I voted with my wallet.

Perhaps the best thing that can happen from this kickstarter craze is that publishers get hungry for some of that money and start taking some risks for some well earned reward. Shame it will likely be too late for the likes of Obsidian et al.

[JWong]

I love the idea that 30 - 40 year olds wander around in some kind of alzheimers haze, unsure if that Wasteland 2 game they just bet their life savings on (because it's all or nothing on a project you can donate as little as a dollar to) was a sequel to a game they enjoyed in their distant youth, or just a type of breakfast cereal. I personally made a donation to this project because it's a chance to put my money where my mouth is. I'm increasingly disinterested in the formulaic junk being spunked out by the big names in the games industry, and here's a chance for something completely different, some unfinished business by some of the most respected names in their field. But I realise it's only a chance . If I wanted to exercise "good business sense" I could have invested that money in a hundred more sensible ways. I might get a terrible game in return for it, I might even get nothing . But fuck it, I made my stand in the only way I can as a largely powerless consumer - I voted with my wallet. Perhaps the best thing that can happen from this kickstarter craze is that publishers get hungry for some of that money and start taking some risks for some well earned reward. Shame it will likely be too late for the likes of Obsidian et al.

I thought the idea of Double Fine Adventures and Wasteland 2 is that is will be formulaic. Nothing wrong with it, but it seems like a contradiction in your statement. The investors want their old games back as I understand it.

And there are a few cases where the big names will invest in something creative and insane. Like Sony investing in ThatGameCompany and Quantic Dream.

Well, okay, maybe Sony is the only one insane enough to do it.

[SovanJedi]

I'm just appalled by the lack of research done by the critics of Kickstarter and its projects. Obviously I can't possibly follow up Stump's impressive post record in this thread (listen to the madman indeed), but seriously, everything is very clearly labelled and has worked out for itself over the 2+ years this site has been running.

I can sort of understand the concern about someone like Activision pulling a douchey Kickstarter funder, but... well, we'll see how it works if it ever does. It is pretty much a great way to determine exactly what people want (to mirror the words of a spectacularly miserable-looking project at the moment).

Plus, it's pretty heartwarming to see people pitch together to help make other people's dream projects come true. It's one of those warm toasty feelings you get to let you know the whole world isn't, y'know, run by scores of hateful pricks.

[XiaNaphryz]

I'm just appalled by the lack of research done by the critics of Kickstarter and its projects.

It shouldn't be that surprising actually. ;P