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RedRedSuit
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(04-20-2012, 10:55 PM)
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Originally Posted by Randdalf

In any future Mass Effect game I want to play as a Krogan seeking vengeance, set during the period when Shepard was dead. To see all the stuff that happened in that period, that we never got to see.

This is exactly the kind of stuff I find immensely ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ-inducing and worthy maybe of a side game by some B-grade developer.
hateradio
The Most Dangerous Yes Man
(04-20-2012, 11:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by RedRedSuit

This is exactly the kind of stuff I find immensely ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ-inducing and worthy maybe of a side game by some B-grade developer.

BioWare is well on its way to being a C-level developer at this point. :p
Last edited by hateradio; 04-20-2012 at 11:03 PM.
RedRedSuit
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(04-20-2012, 11:01 PM)
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Originally Posted by hateradio

BioWear is well on its way to being a C-level developer at this point. :p

Is this where I quote your avatar?
hateradio
The Most Dangerous Yes Man
(04-20-2012, 11:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by RedRedSuit

Is this where I quote your avatar?

Only if you must. However, I was thinking it's time for a change.
Rufus
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(04-20-2012, 11:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Photolysis

The problem is that Thane's death could have been avoided by... pretty much anything. Like having Shepard shoot Leng. Or have Thane shoot Leng, instead of charging at the guy who has a melee weapon when you have a ranged weapon.

And just what are Shepard's team doing in both these instances?

He should have just pulled the trigger. He had the perfect opportunity, but being a master assassin he chose to style on the guy first... And then he forgets he's supposed to be good at this stuff and jumps at Leng. Basically turns his back to him in mid-air, too, when all the oh-so-dangerous Leng has to do to win is what? Stick out his sword in Thane's general direction. Come on... Not even a dirty trick on Lengs part to make us actually hate him instead of just being annoyed? Or even a coughing fit on Thane's part? No, he loses because he's an idiot all of a sudden.

Originally Posted by Photolysis

Ranting about plot contrivances is so cathartic.

Indeed.
Last edited by Rufus; 04-20-2012 at 11:19 PM.
CarbonatedFalcon
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(04-20-2012, 11:17 PM)
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So...finally finished. I need to read through what other people have said (with the one 20k post thread already, as well as this one and peripheral threads.)

Aside from everything else, there were three more minor things that particularly bothered me.

First, when choosing the ending, I ended up going for the destroy one, but not necessarily intentionally. I was gonna scope out that side of the platform, and the other options, but it fucking locks you in place, and I had no choice but to shoot at the conduit. So I was stuck with an ending I didn't really decide to choose.

Second - I downloaded the From Ashes DLC. I happened to have 830 points laying in my account and it had been there forever - I was planning on saving it for Skyrim DLC at one point, but I figured - hey, what the hell. Now, the mission wasn't bad, and Javik is more interesting for the dialogue than as a team member (the weapon you get is kind of shitty), he really shouldn't have been DLC. At worst, it should have been a $7 DLC like Kasumi (who became one of my favorite characters), rather than $10. I wouldn't have bought it, or been more upset at the price if I had paid the full $60 for the game though. Anyway...the point here about Javik is that he replaces Garrus as one of the surviving members who walks off the Normandy crash. Which is bullshit. Why would I want to see the stupid DLC character over Garrus, who's been there through all 3 games, and I romanced in ME2?

Third - You can't upgrade or acquire all the equipment and weapons. Not knowing this, I blew money on some things I didn't use, or silly things (like the fishtank upgrade), and was never able to acquire any of the Spectre weapons. I always kept thinking that there might be some huge credit pile I'd stumble upon later in the game and I could get all of those. Not the case. Which is stupid, since I was richer in Mass Effect 1 (over 1 million credits) - I think that's more credits than is even available in all of ME3. Along with this, all the missions turned into me scouring every corner in a panicked sort of way, trying not to miss any upgrades tucked in a dark spot.

That's all I want to say for now, as this post is long enough as is - there are other things that pissed me off a bit as well. It would be neat to see a more survival horror take in the ME universe though - the bits where you have the flashlight out were pretty neat.
HK-47
Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
(04-20-2012, 11:23 PM)
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Javik doesnt replace Garrus.
subversus
I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
(04-20-2012, 11:27 PM)
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I had Joker, EDI and Liara walking out. I was fine with that because I romanced Liara and Joker romanced EDI.

And my friend had nobody, lol
CarbonatedFalcon
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(04-20-2012, 11:34 PM)
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Originally Posted by HK-47

Javik doesnt replace Garrus.

I may be mistaken since they have a similar silhouette, but I'm not going to go back through 1-2 hours worth of content at the moment (starting at the Cerberus space station) just to double check.
subversus
I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
(04-20-2012, 11:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by CarbonatedFalcon

I may be mistaken since they have a similar silhouette, but I'm not going to go back through 1-2 hours worth of content at the moment (starting at the Cerberus space station) just to double check.

Everybody has different people going out
Bisnic
Really Really Exciting Member!
(04-20-2012, 11:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by CarbonatedFalcon

Third - You can't upgrade or acquire all the equipment and weapons. Not knowing this, I blew money on some things I didn't use, or silly things (like the fishtank upgrade), and was never able to acquire any of the Spectre weapons. I always kept thinking that there might be some huge credit pile I'd stumble upon later in the game and I could get all of those. Not the case. Which is stupid, since I was richer in Mass Effect 1 (over 1 million credits) - I think that's more credits than is even available in all of ME3. Along with this, all the missions turned into me scouring every corner in a panicked sort of way, trying not to miss any upgrades tucked in a dark spot.

Did you buy stuff from the Normandy or Citadel? You pay 10% more on the Normandy as far as i know.

Also why would you buy stuff you dont need? Dont tell me you bought every single "ME2" armor, even those who had shitty stats for your class? Or sniper upgrades for your adept for example? I never had trouble buying what was worth it for my specific Shepard. ME1 was also the only ME game where you had "infinite" money.
CarbonatedFalcon
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(04-21-2012, 12:07 AM)
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Originally Posted by Bisnic

Did you buy stuff from the Normandy or Citadel? You pay 10% more on the Normandy as far as i know.

Also why would you buy stuff you dont need? Dont tell me you bought every single "ME2" armor, even those who had shitty stats for your class? Or sniper upgrades for your adept for example? I never had trouble buying what was worth it for my specific Shepard. ME1 was also the only ME game where you had "infinite" money.

Some stuff I bought off the Normandy - not often though. I skipped stupid weapon mods, but I still did gun level upgrades for some things, even if I didn't end up using them often - to help your squad mates, in theory at least. I guess you just need to test stuff in the firing range before deciding to upgrade it or not. Like I had multiple pistols fully leveled, even if I only brought one with me most of the time. It's just sort of weird, as there's no indication that you really need to save money to get the Spectre weapons. I only bought the Collector Armor as a full suit, but didn't end up using it.

Probably the only "mistake" you could say I made was deciding to upgrade any assault rifles at all, as I was playing an Infiltrator (which can work equally well with shotguns or sniper rifles, along with a pistol). But as I said - I figured that it would at least help your squadmates (although through experience, their damage really is negligible except for powers). I'd definitely play different a second time through. Even still, I don't think it's possible to get all 3 Spectre weapons. You may be able to get 2.
Bisnic
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(04-21-2012, 12:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by CarbonatedFalcon

Some stuff I bought off the Normandy - not often though. I skipped stupid weapon mods, but I still did gun level upgrades for some things, even if I didn't end up using them often - to help your squad mates, in theory at least. I guess you just need to test stuff in the firing range before deciding to upgrade it or not. Like I had multiple pistols fully leveled, even if I only brought one with me most of the time. It's just sort of weird, as there's no indication that you really need to save money to get the Spectre weapons. I only bought the Collector Armor as a full suit, but didn't end up using it.

Probably the only "mistake" you could say I made was deciding to upgrade any assault rifles at all, as I was playing an Infiltrator (which can work equally well with shotguns or sniper rifles, along with a pistol). But as I said - I figured that it would at least help your squadmates (although through experience, their damage really is negligible except for powers). I'd definitely play different a second time through. Even still, I don't think it's possible to get all 3 Spectre weapons. You may be able to get 2.

Its definitely not worth it to buy all 3 Spectre weapons, i mean who would use all 3 of them? Their weight alone is ridiculous, i cant imagine using all 3 at once.

You should get enough credits to buy what you really need, even upgrades for your squadmates guns. Dont forget to scan every systems too, you might find a planet with hidden credits. You shouldnt have any issues if you keep buying what's really necessary. I think i finished my 1st run with still 300k credits. It probably helps that i do every quests and look in every corners for credits. :lol
CarbonatedFalcon
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(04-21-2012, 12:42 AM)
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Originally Posted by Bisnic

Its definitely not worth it to buy all 3 Spectre weapons, i mean who would use all 3 of them? Their weight alone is ridiculous, i cant imagine using all 3 at once.

You should get enough credits to buy what you really need, even upgrades for your squadmates guns. Dont forget to scan every systems too, you might find a planet with hidden credits. You shouldnt have any issues if you keep buying what's really necessary. I think i finished my 1st run with still 300k credits. It probably helps that i do every quests and look in every corners for credits. :lol

I scanned everything, and I'm pretty sure I picked up all or nearly all (at least 95% of the credit containers). Never had close to 300k credits. Huh.

Also, does anyone know why they removed heavy weapons except situationally? You only get them 3-4 times or so. Not nearly the variety of what was in ME2 either.

Another disappointing thing is that the best boss fight in the series is the Shadow Broker - from DLC.

I do have more things to discuss, but I still want to read through more posts before getting into more gruesome details. One last thing though - it kind of sucks that as super paragon, you still can't get a "perfect" ending, where the relays are fine, you don't die, and synthetic merge happens, or you don't have to kill the Geth off along with the reapers. The ending choices just kind of suck if you saved the Geth, period, as you'd think that you wouldn't have to deal with the cycle bullshit anymore. You're punished for being awesome. It's illogical.
HK-47
Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
(04-21-2012, 01:05 AM)
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i thought Vasir and the Overlord were more fun than the Shadow Broker.
ctrayne
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(04-21-2012, 04:50 AM)
.
Last edited by ctrayne; 09-11-2012 at 02:57 AM.
Photolysis
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(04-21-2012, 05:22 AM)

Originally Posted by ctrayne

I feel like the quality of the cinematics got worse as the game progressed. The ending bit with the Illusive Man and Anderson had God Awful camera work. Like, just, what the fuck. Really jerky and janky. I actually tuned out a bunch of dialogue because I was distracted by the terrible motion sickness of the whole thing

I'm fortunate enough not to suffer from motion sickness but there is definitely some very poor camera work in places.

Another example that springs to mind is the end of Rannoch just after you take down the Reaper. Romanced Tali gives Shepard a hug, and just as she does the camera cuts away to this really weird wide overhead shot which adds nothing, and actually significantly detracts from the focus of the scene.

It's not an especially important example, but does give a bad impression.
ctrayne
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(04-21-2012, 05:28 AM)
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Last edited by ctrayne; 09-11-2012 at 02:57 AM.
DTKT
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(04-21-2012, 07:35 AM)
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It's worth noting that some of the cameras are clearly bugged.

I would attribute that to a rushed dev time and not exactly a "conscious" choice by Bioware. I doubt they thought they were great but they did "work".
PinkCrayon
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(04-21-2012, 08:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by DTKT

It's worth noting that some of the cameras are clearly bugged.

I would attribute that to a rushed dev time and not exactly a "conscious" choice by Bioware. I doubt they thought they were great but they did "work".

Sadly, this can be said for much of the games faults. :(
The Broken Ska Record
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(04-21-2012, 08:37 AM)
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I agree about the setting of the series. I liked how "dark" and "close the cutscenes in the Normandy in ME1 looked.

That said, I didn't particularly like the overly human perspective of the series. I guess it's to make it more accessible, and to have the player root for the "underdog," but I wanted to see it a bit less focused on us. I rolled my eyes when the Reapers took the Citadel to Earth. :/
hateradio
The Most Dangerous Yes Man
(04-21-2012, 08:49 AM)
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Humans were the underdogs? I always felt like they were just the new guys in town, who were now going to be the best thing ever.

Fucking humans.
The Broken Ska Record
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(04-21-2012, 08:54 AM)
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Well, maybe not underdogs, but plucky young upstarts trying to show the other races they've got the balls to handle all of the power.
HK-47
Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
(04-21-2012, 10:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by The Broken Ska Record

Well, maybe not underdogs, but plucky young upstarts trying to show the other races they've got the balls to handle all of the power.

The pucky upstart that somehow get ridiculously influential ridiculously fast. It was one of my complaint about ME1. Seems trivial now.
Rufus
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(04-21-2012, 11:25 AM)
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They all but abandoned the 'Humanity is special' shit after ME2. The reapers going to Earth first for what is now a very mysterious reason (I mean, really, why not the Citadel first?) is all that is left of that.
HadesGigas
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(04-21-2012, 11:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by Rufus

They all but abandoned the 'Humanity is special' shit after ME2. The reapers going to Earth first for what is now a very mysterious reason (I mean, really, why not the Citadel first?) is all that is left of that.

Wasn't it pretty much just they started with the Batarian homeworld and Earth was next after that?

Though why you got all of alienkind to agree to try and "take earth back" is still a mystery. Then convienently the reapers move the citidel there for some reason.

Seems like it'd make a hell of a lot more sense if something on Earth was needed for the cruicible. So you have to bring the crucible there, and you need all the galaxy's cooperation to protect it and to help you do whatever it is you'd need to do on Earth.
Rufus
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(04-21-2012, 12:14 PM)
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Ah, right, the Batarians... Weren't they hit first because they were en-route, pretty much? And Earth is a big jump to make from there, still.

It's strange considering the Reaper's motives, too. Wouldn't they want to 'save' the Quarians first? Seeing how they are the ones from this cycle that ran into a bit of a problem with AIs.
Last edited by Rufus; 04-21-2012 at 12:24 PM.
Dilly
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(04-21-2012, 12:17 PM)
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I thought it was because the Batarian homeworld and Earth were close to dark space.
Rufus
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(04-21-2012, 12:27 PM)
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Looking at the Galaxy map, that's probably the reason, yeah. So they got rid of 'humanity is special' entirely, assuming they would have moved the Citadel to every species' home world.
CarbonatedFalcon
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(04-21-2012, 02:01 PM)
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The thing about the whole saving Earth impetus that pisses me off is that it's possible for there to be no intrinsic motivation for your Shepard to really care that much about Earth. Which makes the forced kid PTSD (indoctrination?) bullshit even worse.

You never visit Earth in the series before - the closest you get is the moon in ME1 on a sidequest no less. My Shepard was also a Spacer (that choice really ended up being pretty pointless aside from flavor dialogue, maybe once per game?) So I never really had any connection there in the first place. The only way it's "personal" is if your Shepard was an Earthborn, rather than a Colonist or the aforementioned Spacer.

It's so weird that the story is hinging on you feeling an emotional attachment to Earth, which has to come from the player, rather than the character, 2/3s of the time. You know, I don't give much of a fuck about Earth in the ME universe. They just sort of thrust that shit on us. I feel more connected to the Citadel as a location than anywhere else (besides the Normandy).

It's just awful.
Phuturephunk
Banned
(04-21-2012, 02:15 PM)

Originally Posted by CarbonatedFalcon


Second - I downloaded the From Ashes DLC. I happened to have 830 points laying in my account and it had been there forever - I was planning on saving it for Skyrim DLC at one point, but I figured - hey, what the hell. Now, the mission wasn't bad, and Javik is more interesting for the dialogue than as a team member (the weapon you get is kind of shitty), he really shouldn't have been DLC. At worst, it should have been a $7 DLC like Kasumi (who became one of my favorite characters), rather than $10. I wouldn't have bought it, or been more upset at the price if I had paid the full $60 for the game though. Anyway...the point here about Javik is that he replaces Garrus as one of the surviving members who walks off the Normandy crash. Which is bullshit. Why would I want to see the stupid DLC character over Garrus, who's been there through all 3 games, and I romanced in ME2?

If Garrus was your love interest, I'm surprised he didn't show up. I was under the impression that, with the exception of the synthesis ending, your most used squadmate and paramour showed up at the end.

The real problem with how they handled Javik was how much richer the whole experience was with him there. He really did make the story a whole lot more rewarding (IMO) by acting as a link to the distant past and how profoundly different his outlook was than any of the other characters. I couldn't even imagine playing the game without him in it.


Originally Posted by CarbonatedFalcon

The thing about the whole saving Earth impetus that pisses me off is that it's possible for there to be no intrinsic motivation for your Shepard to really care that much about Earth. Which makes the forced kid PTSD (indoctrination?) bullshit even worse.

I think the Devs were trying to tickle the player more than the character with Earth being the focus. Since the player is, in effect, Shepard, they were banking on you wanting to defend Earth since..well, there's only one earth that spawned humans and that's worth fighting for. I think a small 2 mission hub like Tuchanka and Rannoch would have tied players a bit more closely. Like you could sneak back to Earth at some point and help the people on the ground covertly to set up a culmination to the end.

Double Edit: I agree about the kid though, double super-ham sammich, there.
Last edited by Phuturephunk; 04-21-2012 at 02:19 PM.
Rufus
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(04-21-2012, 02:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by Phuturephunk

I think the Devs were trying to tickle the player more than the character with Earth being the focus. Since the player is, in effect, Shepard, they were banking on you wanting to defend Earth since..well, there's only one earth that spawned humans and that's worth fighting for.

I agree, but at the same time they sabotage that by giving Shepard more character, separated from the player's dialogue choices.
I think vent kid was supposed to be the main (cheap) solution to making people care about earth within the story, but that seemed to have fallen flat for most people as well.
CarbonatedFalcon
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(04-21-2012, 02:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by Phuturephunk

If Garrus was your love interest, I'm surprised he didn't show up. I was under the impression that, with the exception of the synthesis ending, your most used squadmate and paramour showed up at the end.

The real problem with how they handled Javik was how much richer the whole experience was with him there. He really did make the story a whole lot more rewarding (IMO) by acting as a link to the distant past and how profoundly different his outlook was than any of the other characters. I couldn't even imagine playing the game without him in it.

Liara was my love interest, and she was there. I romanced here in ME1 and ME3. Romanced Garrus in ME2. Seriously considered romancing him again in ME3 though - I actually did a quick save to check out what the commit conversation to him was like. Really it was a pretty tough choice, but I went with Liara since she was the original interest from ME1. Both are good characters. It's funny, romancing both, as I always thought there might be some confrontation scene like the loyalty ones in ME2 as a punishment for romancing more than one character.

And I still don't know why Javik showed up. Liara and Garrus were by far my most used squad mates. With EDI maybe being third (though as I ended up with destruction, she wouldn't have been there). I really only brought her for her remarks though, rather than combat abilities. There's some weird things that happen if you do that at times though - I had EDI in my party once and the computer voice EDI was giving info over the intercom, rather than coming from the body. A minor, but rather jarring and obvious discrepancy.

It's like all the times in cutscenes your Shepard is holding a weapon you don't even have on you - holding a pistol when you have a sniper rifle equipped (though sometimes it's correct), or an an assault rifle out of nowhere, even if you don't have one on you, which is really lazy/awful/bad. Especially without the conceit that you're carrying all the weapon types on you, even if you can't use them properly (ala ME1 and ME2).
Veezy
que?
(04-21-2012, 08:00 PM)
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Finished the game on insanity.

1. I thought the combat was fun. On intensity, I had a few controller smashing moments but I really felt like it was my fault when I died (most of time, Kai Leng excluded). As has been, I assume, mentioned, having the run/dodge/cover/select all as the same button is just annoying. Died so many times from rolling when I should have covered. Whatever.

2. The plot was, well, alright. I didn't exactly understand why, once you realize that the eyeball that the lazer comes out was the weak point of the reapers that wasn't spread out to the entire fucking galaxy. But, gotta keep things tense I suppose. Some things just flat out bothered me, like Thane going fucking stupid with the pistol, but overall it wasn't terrible.

3. The ending is poor. It's not so bad that it makes me hate the game, but I don't see myself playing through it again besides to get the last few trophies (the fact that you have to play some mutliplayer to get enough readiness in order to get high enough percentage of war assets to attain the "master and commander" trophy sucks. I spent hours doing all the side quests and it didn't matter.) My biggest issue isn't even the ABC choice where everything is the same (although that is bad writing as there really isn't a good explanation). The glaring plot holes kill me. Liara and Javick were with me on Earth. How did they get back on the Normandy after my FemShep got facesmashed by a lazer and why is Joker running away from the exploding relay? What's going to happen to the untold number of aliens that can't get home? How come we don't have more of those big fucking rockets to shoot at Reaper eyes? Does every other species of alien in the universe not have big fucking rockets too? I thought mass effect relays exploding would take out a system, what's gonna happen with the whole of the galaxy?

4. Multiplayer is fun, but since I bought it on PS3 I seem to be missing out on those weekend events.
Last edited by Veezy; 04-21-2012 at 08:04 PM.
Yopis
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(04-21-2012, 08:15 PM)
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Just finished on Insanity also. Out of the three games on insanity this was not the hardest but the most fun for some reason. I didn't really mind the ending so much to be honest. Kinda reminded me of Return of the Jedi where the ending climax is 45 mins long then you get a quick clip or two and credits.

After beating mass effect 1 I felt the series was going in a different direction than it did.Felt like blade runner/snatcher in part 1. After it felt like star trek. Personally I will take away some cool characters cool moments and great soundtrack of ME1 and 3.

Truly hope bioware improves some of the issues people have with the ending but to me it was about the ride. Kinda like kotor 2 endings (salute obsidian) . Now to watch all of the extra disc that came with CE editions for all three games. Wanted to finish all 3 games before I let them pull the curtain back on me.
Jake Tower
Banned
(04-21-2012, 09:56 PM)
Some good came of my purchase of ME3. I traded it for Saints Row the Third.
subversus
I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
(04-21-2012, 10:43 PM)
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I'm starting slowly accepting the reality in which this game is the final part of the series. I looked through other walkthroughs and as I understand Udina represents humanity on the Citadel even if I chose Anderson at the end of ME1.

/vomiting

As a consolation I do what some desperate (beyond any help) ME fans do - drawing a flowchart of how I would handle the story in ME3. Also outlining how I would preserve RPG elements from ME1 and expand on them. It gives some consolation... I hope I'll move on in a week or so because it's not healthy.
rozay
Banned
(04-21-2012, 10:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by subversus

I'm starting slowly accepting the reality in which this game is the final part of the series. I looked through other walkthroughs and as I understand Udina represents humanity on the Citadel even if I chose Anderson at the end of ME1.

/vomiting

As a consolation I do what some desperate (beyond any help) ME fans do - drawing a flowchart of how I would handle the story in ME3. Also outlining how I would preserve RPG elements from ME1 and expand on them. It gives some consolation... I hope I'll move on in a week or so because it's not healthy.

anderson quit his job on the citadel at the end of Mass Effect: Retribution to be able to bone Kahlee Sanders whenever he feels like it
subversus
I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
(04-21-2012, 11:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by rozay

anderson quit his job on the citadel at the end of Mass Effect: Retribution to be able to bone Kahlee Sanders whenever he feels like it

Oh, how convenient!
CarbonatedFalcon
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(04-21-2012, 11:35 PM)
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I'm starting to subscribe more and more to the indoctrination theory, in that destroying the reapers is the only real "good" outcome, especially as it's the only ending in which Shepard gasps for breath at the end. It also deals with the crazy plot holes like the Normandy running away with the people you had on Earth, as they're just hallucinations.

However, it's hard to really accept the theory as true because I honestly don't think the writers were that clever. Occam's Razor and all. It would go over the heads of most people, especially if you hadn't just replayed ME1 and ME2 and refreshed yourself on details. Indoctrination theory also doesn't explain why the synthesis ending would only be available after reaching a certain threshold of war assets and the others are available in every scenario. With that design, synthesis is clearly intended to be the "best" ending (not counting indoctrination/Shepard lives scenario, in which case it's only on par or slightly better than control).

Even if the indoctrination theory does turn out to be true, it doesn't excuse having kind of shitty endings in the first place (like others, I anticipated the final confrontation playing out more like ME2's suicide mission, based on the war assets acquired, for one thing.)
Aske
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(04-21-2012, 11:36 PM)
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Just finished the game. I'm sure others have already beaten these points to death, but I have to express the frustration to people who know what I'm talking about.

Also kind of hoping someone points out something I missed or failed to understand.



What the fuck at the ending. The whole Reaper War was to stop a war between synthetics and organics? By culling - sorry, 'harvesting' - whole species in the least humane way possible? I assumed it was at least to do with organic life reaching an unsustainable level or something. But instead they just stole the ending to Battlestar Galactica: cycle of organics creating synthetics; synthetics rising up; war.

I wanted Shepard to say "Oh that's what this is all about? Well worry no more, because the geth and quarians are living in peace, and have conclusively proven that destruction and war between synthetics and their creators isn't inevitable!" at which point the catalyst should have STFU and called off his pointless culling.

The catalyst isn't infallible. Shepard proves that just by meeting him. So that undermines every single grand conclusion about the nature of existence that issues from his mouth. How am I supposed to take anything he says seriously?

It was like whoever wrote the ending hadn't played the rest of the game. The geth/quarian peace undermines the whole premise of the space-god's motive for the harvest. On top of that, I just spent 60 hours learning that there is no meaningful distinction between organics and synthetics. We're all just tubes and minds. Shepard proves this just by existing; as does EDI; as do the geth after Legion gives them all free will. And we're all just as likely to fight with each other as against each other.

So after establishing the utter pointlessness of the Reaper harvest, we get three choices. The 'Paragon' (Destroy) ending wipes out the geth after Shepard has learned that they're just as alive as anyone else; sacrificing synthetics so organics (specifically, humanity and Shepard) can live. In a morally black and white game like Mass Effect, this should have been presented as the Renegade choice. Following the Illusive Man and going Renegade sacrifices Shepard to save everyone, and is far more Paragon than the game portrays it.

The 'best' ending, in which the DNA of everything gets merged, makes no sense; since the game has already established that there's no meaningful distinction between synthetic and organic. Organics war with each other. Synthetics war with each other. So the new evolved hybrids will, inevitably, have more wars. Nothing will change but the meat. And who's to say merging is the a superior state of evolution? Only the space-god, who has already shown that his predictions can't be trusted.

So great, my Paragon Shep picked the Renegade ending. Everyone lives except Shepard. But the Mass Relays have been destroyed. So all those soldiers and scientists and support staff who were involved in the final assault against the Reapers are stranded in the Sol system. The Salarians are the only race who benefit from the whole thing, since the Reapers never got to their planet, and I irritated them by curing the krogan so they committed few resources to the war.

The whole game focused on Shepard sorting shit out and creating this magnificent galactic future for every species and culture; but since the end of the game leaves everyone stranded around the galaxy it feels utterly hollow. I wouldn't mind so much if it made sense, but given the premise of the Catalyst and the philosophy of the rest of the game, it feels both anti-climactic and nonsensical.

I'm sure I'm not the first to make these points. I'd love to know how Bioware refutes them.
Last edited by Aske; 04-22-2012 at 12:40 AM.
Zeitgeister
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(04-21-2012, 11:47 PM)
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But at least you can buy that 'extended cut' DLC this summer!

RIGHT? (trollface)

edit: I do apologize for not giving a serious response, but then there is nothing really to discuss past that terrible, terrible ending, as you will find while reading this thread or at least parts of it.
Last edited by Zeitgeister; 04-22-2012 at 12:03 AM.
rozay
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(04-21-2012, 11:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Aske

I'm sure I'm not the first to make these points. I'd love to know how Bioware refutes them.

trust me, you don't
Rapstah
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(04-21-2012, 11:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Aske

So after establishing the utter pointlessness of the Reaper harvest, we get three choices. The 'Paragon' (Destroy) ending wipes out the geth after Shepard has learned that they're just as alive as anyone else; sacrificing synthetics so organics (specifically, humanity and Shepard) can live. In a morally black and white game like Mass Effect, this should have been presented as the Renegade choice. Following the Illusive Man and going Renegade sacrifices Shepard to save everyone, and is far more Paragon than the game portrays it.

[...]

So great, my Paragon Shep picked the Renegade ending. Everyone lives except Shepard. But the Mass Relays have been destroyed. So all those soldiers and scientists and support staff who were involved in the final assault against the Reapers are stranded in the Sol system. The Salarians are the only race who benefit from the whole thing, since the Reapers never got to their planet, and I irritated them off by curing the krogan so they committed few resources to the war.

Not at all in defense of the endings, but they are actually colour coded to support your suggestion of Destroy being Renegade and Control being Paragon. They might be incidentally so, since by all other accounts having Anderson pick one and TIM the other would label them by those people, but those two things - Anderson/TIM and the endings' colours - are all we have.

Otherwise great post, should have shown that for the people who thought the ending was great a month back. I mean, fuck, great. I can see not thinking it's bad enough to ruin the franchise, or even ruin the game, but saying it's a great ending signals something different.
DTKT
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(04-21-2012, 11:58 PM)
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Hey guys.

I'm arguing with people who believe in the Indoctrination theory.

Please kill me.


Originally Posted by Rapstah

Not at all in defense of the endings, but they are actually colour coded to support your suggestion of Destroy being Renegade and Control being Paragon. They might be incidentally so, since by all other accounts having Anderson pick one and TIM the other would label them by those people, but those two things - Anderson/TIM and the endings' colours - are all we have.

Otherwise great post, should have shown that for the people who thought the ending was great a month back. I mean, fuck, great. I can see not thinking it's bad enough to ruin the franchise, or even ruin the game, but saying it's a great ending signals something different.

If we look at the actual requirements for the endings, the "Synthesis" is the most "Paragon" one. No one dies and everyone becomes some kind of super-hybrid-mutant thing. It's still horrible but it's "better" in terms of the actual impacts on the Galaxy. Of course, I personnaly believe that rewriting the entire universe is a travesty but oh well...
Last edited by DTKT; 04-22-2012 at 12:02 AM.
CarbonatedFalcon
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(04-22-2012, 12:02 AM)
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See, the thing is, caught up in the moment, I thought the ending was okay. It's pretty tense up until that point and you have adrenaline flowing, etc. (Marauder Shields!) I wasn't immediately outraged (and I still wouldn't say I'm as upset as some people) But upon stepping away for a bit, decompressing and applying a bit of analyzation, it just falls apart.

I think the general outrage is a tad overblown, but not at all unwarranted.

Ending aside, I'm still not sure whether I could say the gameplay is definitively better than ME1 or ME2. Everything between Earth at the start (Mars onwards) up to Marauder Shields is pretty damn good if you ignore the dream (indoctrination?) sequences, with some relatively minor nigglings. I would have preferred you to be able to have an actual fight with TIM - had that been possible, then I would say up until that point is good. Star child is where we fall apart though.
Last edited by CarbonatedFalcon; 04-22-2012 at 12:09 AM.
Rapstah
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(04-22-2012, 12:03 AM)
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Originally Posted by DTKT

Hey guys.

I'm arguing with people who believe in the Indoctrination theory.

Please kill me.

Believe as in that they think it's a great fan theory that's better than Bioware's ending (it kind of is in a way), or people who think it's what Bioware designed and are sitting on DLC any day now which will turn the game into one of humanity's greatest works of fiction? You're on your own in the latter case.

(But you should liken it to the Colbert report, and come up with a lot of funny comparisons between "Colbert is for real" and the indoctrination theory.)

EDIT:

Originally Posted by CarbonatedFalcon

See, the thing is, caught up in the moment, I thought the ending was okay. It's pretty tense up until that point and you have adrenaline flowing, etc. (Marauder Shields!) I wasn't immediately outraged (and I still wouldn't say I'm as upset as some people) But upon stepping away for a bit, decompressing and applying a bit of analyzation, it just falls apart.

I think the general outrage is a tad overblown, but not at all unwarranted.

I would say the game does a great job of explicitly robbing you of all that "the game's ending!" adrenaline by having the slow zombie-mode Shepard sequence near the end. The TIM conversation had a little bit of effect on me, I felt him shooting himself and would have found it great if what came after had been even better, like a cool expositionary Harbinger conversation with collectors and Protheans and shit raining from the sky. In that conversation, though, the Illusive Man was just repeating what he had said before, with stupid responses coming out of Shepard, and Anderson died even though I knew at the moment that I had just done the super-Paragon-iest thing by making him kill himself, so it didn't feel that good at all even coming up to the kid part, and then obviously not being pumped at that point makes one think of how stupid it is and it never felt like a good or even halfway decent ending at all.

The Reapers are powerful and we must control them, Shepard!
You're wrong!
The Reapers are powerful and we must control them, Shepard!
You're wrong!
The Reapers are powerful and we must control them, Shepard!
Paragon option saying you're wrong!
*shoots self*


EDIT: And even then I'm sure many of the people yelling about the ending, not neccessarily on here but peole involved with Retake Mass Effect or whatever it's called these days, aren't really as mad about the ending as they think they are. People that count for me are mad about it, though, which is, uh, what counts. Not sure what I just said.
Last edited by Rapstah; 04-22-2012 at 12:15 AM. Reason: fast typing
DTKT
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(04-22-2012, 12:12 AM)
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Originally Posted by Rapstah

Believe as in that they think it'sa great fan theory that's better than Bioware's ending (it kind of is in a way), or people who think it's what Bioware designed are are sitting on DLC any day now which will turn the game into one of humanity's greatest works of fiction? You're on your own in the latter case.

(But you should liken it to the Colbert report, and come up with a lot of funny comparisons between "Colbert is for real" and the indoctrination theory.)

It seems that part of Bioware Social Network is 100% sure that it's all a set up. Bioware never outright denied it, the "Final Hours" app doesn't mention it because they were withheld that information and Bioware will soon release DLC that will provide all the answers.

It's a bit scary really.
Rapstah
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(04-22-2012, 12:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by DTKT

It seems that part of Bioware Social Network is 100% sure that it's all a set up. Bioware never outright denied it, the "Final Hours" app doesn't mention it because they were withheld that information and Bioware will soon release DLC that will provide all the answers.

It's a bit scary really.

They're painting themselves down a narrow corridor: I'm sure in a year they'll be saying that Bioware had such an ending planned out but bailed on it as they heard all the negative feedback. It's psychological self-defense in a way, escaping by putting the blame on someone who isn't Bioware, who isn't the ego, and still not having to neccessarily like the ending.
Rufus
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(04-22-2012, 12:19 AM)
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Originally Posted by CarbonatedFalcon

Even if the indoctrination theory does turn out to be true, it doesn't excuse having kind of shitty endings in the first place (like others, I anticipated the final confrontation playing out more like ME2's suicide mission, based on the war assets acquired, for one thing.)

And it would mean that there is no ending. (That would have been nice, wouldn't it? :/ )

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