[hateradio]

None of your answers do anything for your case.

But at the same time, it's perfectly fine. Speculation from everyone is the real goal after all.

[televator]

Everything that came before lead him to make this choice. I thought it was very powerful

No. The Starchild created those choices regardless of what Shepard has done before. Any choices you made before have absolutely no bearing on the final choice. Also the "powerful" choice is based on flawed logic. The star child derives his "solutions" from the premise that synthetics will always destroy all organics. Which is 1) Patently false 2) contradictory to the fact that reapers do not have the kind of foresight to make that claim in the first place. So there really is no point what so ever for the arbitrary and extremely specific consequences of the final choice.

He got a long well with eveeeeryone so he merged synthetic and organic life and saved the world and now everyone's happy...

No. Your choice violates free will and will piss people off. Aside from that, all choices are actually just one choice as they all play out in the same functional manner.

[SalsaShark]

so yeah, just finished it.

At first i was like what the hell is everyone talking about, this is great, great tension and i cant wait to see how it unfolds.. then Shepard went up and.. yeah.

Man.


edit: oh and i killed the reapers, that's what i was there to do

[hateradio]

Welcome home, amigo.

[SalsaShark]

also i just saw the control the reapers ending and yeah.. now i understand even more

jeebus, what a cop out

[televator]

so yeah, just finished it. At first i was like what the hell is everyone talking about, this is great, great tension and i cant wait to see how it unfolds.. then Shepard went up and.. yeah. Man. edit: oh and i killed the reapers, that's what i was there to do

Welcome to the support group.

My experience was that I wasn't expecting much from the ending, because of all the discord. Yet, I though it would at least be acceptable at a basic functional level, but even that wasn't so. Meaning that the ending could literally be a "rick roll" video and it would still be just as functional.

Who walked out of the Normandy in your ending?

[SalsaShark]

Welcome to the support group. My experience was that I wasn't expecting much from the ending, because of all the discord. Yet, I though it would at least be acceptable at a basic functional level, but even that wasn't so. Meaning that the ending could literally be a "rick roll" video and it would still be just as functional. Who walked out of the Normandy in your ending?

Javik and Liara

I honestly paid little attention to gathering war efforts just to see the best ending and played the game just doing what i felt like doing and what i enjoyed playing. I accept my fate :p and Shepard died.

Now im watching the "green" ending and there's just no way of saving this thing, man.

[Dresden]

It's okay, man.

After a month you won't feel anything at all.

[SalsaShark]

Well i cant imagine how i would have felt if i didnt knew about the disappointment beforehand.

All the internet chatter certainly softened the blow.

Game was fun, some highs were really highs and some of the lows were pretty fucking low, but i had fun. Enjoyed the last mission as well. Still the weakest of the trilogy for me, even with ending not withstanding.

Dying over the Marauder Shields stuff right now, good thing i avoided any kind of spoiler.

[televator]

Javik and Liara I honestly paid little attention to gathering war efforts just to see the best ending and played the game just doing what i felt like doing and what i enjoyed playing. I accept my fate :p and Shepard died. Now im watching the "green" ending and there's just no way of saving this thing, man.

I got Liara in my last play through as well. She seemed pretty happy. All right with herself after abandoning me during the final push. I got shot by a giant laser and she was perfectly fine, but decided there are more important things to do than to enter the beam and destroy the reapers.

Just imagine how even more dumbstruck you'd be in the moment if EDI walked out in the destroy ending... Because it totally does happen. It happened to me the first time. Yes, in the ending that destroys all synthetics, EDI is there. Let that sink in.

[SalsaShark]

Just imagine how even more dumbstruck you'd be in the moment if EDI walked out in the destroy ending... Because it totally does happen. It happened to me the first time. Yes, in the ending that destroys all synthetics, EDI is there. Let that sink in.

wat

oh i get it, Joker's love made her..



wat

[MuseManMike]

Well i cant imagine how i would have felt if i didnt knew about the disappointment beforehand. All the internet chatter certainly softened the blow. Game was fun, some highs were really highs and some of the lows were pretty fucking low, but i had fun. Enjoyed the last mission as well. Still the weakest of the trilogy for me, even with ending not withstanding. Dying over the Marauder Shields stuff right now, good thing i avoided any kind of spoiler.

Why? By last, do you mean your shoot-out in London?

[SalsaShark]

Why? By last, do you mean your shoot-out in London?

Yeah cause i found it satisfyingly hard (i know the hordes depend on war efforts so i was probably pretty poor there) and it had some nice eye-candy. The build up was pretty shitty but idk, it clicked to a point.

Also i was pretty happy to see Javik out i guess, Liara wasnt expecting cause i totally bailed on her and went with Miranda as relationship (i did ME1=Liara ME2=Miranda) but she still gave me that whole gift and head on shoulder thing so whatevs.

Javik was the best thing about this game. Pretty much what Mordin was to ME2 but in a totally different way.

Cant believe he's DLC, fucking lol.

[Gui_PT]

Are you starting to hate the ending now?

Because none of your options in all 3 games have any influence in the ending

You only get 3 crap choices that don't really make sense

You basically destroy the galaxy leaving everyone stranded

After that, nothing is explained. What happened to Shepard's friends? Why did they leave him alone? How did they get to where they are? Where are they? How many survived? How will they survive? How will the get out of there?

Nothing is explained. All you know is that Shepard has to make a choice forced by some alien holo kid. Choice he just accepts instead of doing whatever he wants.

[SalsaShark]

yup

[Rapstah]

Yeah cause i found it satisfyingly hard (i know the hordes depend on war efforts so i was probably pretty poor there) and it had some nice eye-candy. The build up was pretty shitty but idk, it clicked

No gameplay in London depends in any way on your war assets.

[SalsaShark]

No gameplay in London depends in any way on your war assets.

aha i see, guess i misunderstood that


one could also argue that given all the chatter my expectations near the ending where as low as it gets, so in a way i was actively trying to like it i think, or at least give it a chance.

[Cromat]

Did you realize in the last Horde part that the game will end in about 15 minutes?
Because I sure didn't.

There is no final confrontation in the last part of the trilogy...

[Gui_PT]

Did you realize in the last Horde part that the game will end in about 15 minutes? Because I sure didn't. There is no final confrontation in the last part of the trilogy...

Yes there is. You uhm...talk to Keith David and... Martin Sheen

And then there's uhm... 3 tubes and you have to do something














Oh

[SalsaShark]

Did you realize in the last Horde part that the game will end in about 15 minutes? Because I sure didn't. There is no final confrontation in the last part of the trilogy...

point there, but at the same this was fucking lame in ME2:



only way i see it is pulling a final boss out of their asses and that would suck as well

the reapers kinda suck for that, i never really felt the threat. Saren worked much better as an antagonist, starting cause you know, he was there, he killed someone you cared about, etc.

man ME1 was so fucking awesome

[Cromat]

point there, but at the same this was fucking lame in ME2: only way i see it is pulling a final boss out of their asses and that would suck as well the reapers kinda suck for that, i never really felt the threat. Saren worked much better as an antagonist, starting cause you know, he was there, he killed someone you cared about, etc. man ME1 was so fucking awesome

Yeah the human reaper thing was terrible, but at least you KNEW you were in the climax of the game. Unlike ME3 where I was:

1) OH YEAH the Citadel here I come!

2) Oh wait, I'm hurt

3) (random nonsense)

4) THE END

5) Going to the NeoGAF thread to say I should never have doubted it when people said the ending really is that bad


Also, ME1 was for me the best experience this generation. The gameplay was all over the place and the framerate was really bad but it had a lot of charm and it blew me away. I seriously couldn't believe it when I convinced Saren to kill himself. The story in ME1 is one of the best videogame stories of all time (not that that's saying much honestly). The talk with Sovereign where it reveals it's an actual Reaper is especially memorable. ME2 and ME3 are still great games, shitty terrible nonsense what-were-you-thinking ending aside.

[heliosRAzi]

Not really arguing a case as much as I am gut reacting without having any prior knowledge of the ending controversy. The above was a response to EmCee based solely on what I saw on screen and my experience playing ME1-3. If I hadn't started reading about the "issues," I wouldn't have inherently had any personally: I think that was my conclusion.

This goes for SalsaShark, too: What did you guys think of the sudden thematic shift to organics vs. synthetics?

However - I was fooled once this year (with Dark Souls, tricky game ending there), so now I'm reading up on this indoctrination theory stuff. And while I totally disagree with a lot of set up, some of the ending bits of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDSwW...layer_embedded I just watched do make a lot of sense. It's pretty thought-provoking actually. Which probably makes me like it more. At least read up on it more anyway.

Don't go down that path. The Desperation Theory is full of wishful thinking and half-baked suppositions. Although a indoctrination gameplay mechanic was going to be put into the ending, the theory is not true proven by the Final Hours app for the iPad and some other stuff. Besides, if it were true, it would be a WORSE ending than what we got since Shepard is still on Earth napping while everyone dies around him. The story doesn't get resolved. The endings we have, although extremely shitty, actually solve the main plot of stopping the reapers.

[Gazzawa]

I think they wanted to hammer home the point, i believe the illusive man said it "this is bigger than you or me" to kind of eradicate your decisions. But the decisions you made were fucking collosal in scope. you spent 3 years saving the galaxy. then there is no closure. no goddam closure. only more questions. new questions. not old ones. the biggest one being "WHAT THE FUCK?"

[Samara]

I'm glad there wasn't any last boss in ME3. I mean yes Terminator baby was dumb as hell. Imagine if they did that again.....What? One big ass Asari and you have to shoot her blue nipples for her to fall? Alright!

What was really fucked up was that Harbinger was there for like 2 seconds in the game. What happened to his blaberring nonsense. I missed those.

[The Broken Ska Record]

Are you starting to hate the ending now? Because none of your options in all 3 games have any influence in the ending You only get 3 crap choices that don't really make sense You basically destroy the galaxy leaving everyone stranded After that, nothing is explained. What happened to Shepard's friends? Why did they leave him alone? How did they get to where they are? Where are they? How many survived? How will they survive? How will the get out of there? Nothing is explained. All you know is that Shepard has to make a choice forced by some alien holo kid. Choice he just accepts instead of doing whatever he wants.

If the three choices Shepard had to make at the end weren't dependent on anything else you did before, I'd be fine with that. I found issue with the fact that all three choices were bullshit and so similar.

Thinking about it, I think Infamous 2 had a greater moral dilemma/choice at the end than ME3.

[Dilly]

It's weird, I also thought 'what's wrong with the ending' until the space elevator. When I saw Shepard going up I just knew that this was the part everyone hated.

[heliosRAzi]

It's weird, I also thought 'what's wrong with the ending' until the space elevator. When I saw Shepard going up I just knew that this was the part everyone hated.

We've been talking about the ending for almost two months now and we've pinpointed that the moment Shep goes up the elevator is when things get shitty.

[Rufus]

The Harbinger non-climax was a, wait for it, a harbinger of events to come. Har, har. But no, seriously, looking back, there were problems even before Shep took the elevator to heaven.

That there was no final boss is fine to me, but it does reek of them just flat out cutting something again because they got bad feedback about it instead of actually fixing it. That seems to be the pattern with their 'listening to feedback' droning.

[DTKT]

Right at the end, after the space kid finishes spouting his bullshit, Shepard should have called Hacket and ordered him to fire on the Crucible. Thus, as the mind behind the Reapers died, the allied forces were able to destroy the Reapers.

The end.

[Myomoto]

Right at the end, after the Catalyst finishes spouting his bullshit, Shepard should have called Hacket and ordered him to fire on the Crucible. Thus, as the mind behind the Reapers died, the allied forces were able to destroy the Reapers. The end.

Wasn't the the Citadel the Catalyst?

[Dilly]

Wasn't the the Citadel the Catalyst?

Which makes no sense because Shepard is pretty much the definition of a Catalyst in the ending.

Ugh

[hateradio]

Right at the end, after the space kid finishes spouting his bullshit, Shepard should have called Hacket and ordered him to fire on the Crucible. Thus, as the mind behind the Reapers died, the allied forces were able to destroy the Reapers. The end.

But then you'd kill everyone in the Citadel if they weren't already killed.

[CarbonatedFalcon]

See, I wouldn't mind so much if the final decision was its own thing and not dependent on any previous choices, but first of all, the choices were shitty (Taste The Rainbow laziness.) And second, the previous choices didn't really end up mattering, at all. Whether you saved the Geth/Quarians or not, cured the Genophage or not, etc. But those two are probably the biggest ones. There's no resounding resolution there, no real consequences for those actions beyond the immediate scene at the time they are made. Those choices should have had a serious effect on at least the climax, if not the final conclusion to the game in a similar manner (ideally even better) to loyalty and squad choice for the Suicide Mission in ME2.

TL:DR: War Assets were bullshit.

[MechaX]

Not really arguing a case as much as I am gut reacting without having any prior knowledge of the ending controversy. The above was a response to EmCee based solely on what I saw on screen and my experience playing ME1-3. If I hadn't started reading about the "issues," I wouldn't have inherently had any personally: I think that was my conclusion.

Is it more of a case of willful blindness, or are you just not seeing some of the implications ME3's ending has for a rest of the series or what problems people might have with it?

For instance, the Catalyst states that Reapers were created to halt the inevitable organic development of deathly synthetics.

Sovereign and Harbinger in ME1 and ME2 flat out state that the Reapers control the evolutionary paths of organics, most notably to become space faring and... eventually create synthetics...

[John Harker]

This goes for SalsaShark, too: What did you guys think of the sudden thematic shift to organics vs. synthetics?.

I played the whole game thinking it was about organics vs. synthetics, what was the shift?

[Rapstah]

But then you'd kill everyone in the Citadel if they weren't already killed.

No dude, there are like shelters and bunkers on the Citadel so people will survive even though the Citadel is destroyed because they're made out of laser and electricity.

~ Bioware, 2012

[Myomoto]

Which makes no sense because Shepard is pretty much the definition of a Catalyst in the ending. Ugh

How? Shepard is consumed in the process, that's not true for a catalyst.

[heliosRAzi]

I played the whole game thinking it was about organics vs. synthetics, what was the shift?

In none of the games is the main theme organics vs. synthetics, especially the second and third games. You can play your Shepard that way, but you still get EDI as a squadmate. Throughout the series, we get hammered that there is strength through diversity and that we can overcome our differences in order to achieve a common goal. Then in the last few minutes of ME3, the Catalyst says that that is all impossible despite a lot of us being able to achieve peace between the geth and the quarians and having an AI work with us.

[Rapstah]

In none of the games is the main theme organics vs. synthetics, especially the second and third games. You can play your Shepard that way, but you still get EDI as a squadmate. Throughout the series, we get hammered that there is strength through diversity and that we can overcome our differences in order to achieve a common goal. Then in the last few minutes of ME3, the Catalyst says that that is all impossible despite a lot of us being able to achieve peace between the geth and the quarians and having an AI work with us.

To clarify this, the synthetics versus organics rules set up by the Catalyst specifically do not include the Reapers at the very definition.

[John Harker]

In none of the games is the main theme organics vs. synthetics, especially the second and third games. You can play your Shepard that way, but you still get EDI as a squadmate. Throughout the series, we get hammered that there is strength through diversity and that we can overcome our differences in order to achieve a common goal. Then in the last few minutes of ME3, the Catalyst says that that is all impossible despite a lot of us being able to achieve peace between the geth and the quarians and having an AI work with us.

(awesome Avatar btw)

Maybe that's just the way I played, but I thought a lot of the story was directly related to the struggle of co-existence between synthetic and organic life. So many choices depended on that, from ME1 and on... everything from Kaiden's implants, to Grunt's test-tube creation, to Resurrected Implanted Shepard, to the fear of the Geth and Legion sacrificing himself to give a consciousness to his race (parallel's what Shepard does in Green ending), Jack's tortuous experimentations, Tali's endless war, EDI's giving of free will... it all had to do with the moral questions around artificial intelligence, the ethical nature of human modification, eezo, biotic implants, etc etc. It was really hit over the head with Javik - I always got the sense their clear black&white attitude toward synthetic life is what ultimately led to their destruction. The Protheans epitomized an organic-dominated galaxy with 0 tolerance toward synthetic life, and they stood no chance in their war. They did not represent an 'alternate solution' and became another failed cycle. He basically says as much to Shepard in his rant on the evil of synthetics left to themselves in this world, and all life depends on their destruction.

Javik is all like Red Rainbow, TIM is all like Blue Rainbow, and EDI/Joker are all like, Green Rainbow. Or something; but that was how I felt most of ME3, and the seeds have certainly been plated in the universe since ME1. All of that fed up to your ultimate decision, how do you view this balance, how do you personally define life, and go ahead, pick a side.

There are a lot of issues with the ending I'm now learning that I've had 24 hours to reflect, but thematically, that part makes sense to me.

[heliosRAzi]

(awesome Avatar btw)

I'm the Avatar and you gotta deal with it!

Maybe that's just the way I played, but I thought a lot of the story was directly related to the struggle of co-existence between synthetic and organic life. So many choices depended on that, from ME1 and on... everything from Kaiden's implants, to Grunt's test-tube creation, to Resurrected Implanted Shepard, to the fear of the Geth and Legion sacrificing himself to give a consciousness to his race (parallel's what Shepard does in Green ending), Jack's tortuous experimentations, Tali's endless war, EDI's giving of free will... it all had to do with the moral questions around artificial intelligence, the ethical nature of human modification, eezo, biotic implants, etc etc. It was really hit over the head with Javik - I always got the sense their clear black&white attitude toward synthetic life is what ultimately led to their destruction. The Protheans epitomized an organic-dominated galaxy with 0 tolerance toward synthetic life, and they stood no chance in their war. They did not represent an 'alternate solution' and became another failed cycle. He basically says as much to Shepard in his rant on the evil of synthetics left to themselves in this world, and all life depends on their destruction. Javik is all like Red Rainbow, TIM is all like Blue Rainbow, and EDI/Joker are all like, Green Rainbow. Or something; but that was how I felt most of ME3, and the seeds have certainly been plated in the universe since ME1. All of that fed up to your ultimate decision, how do you view this balance, how do you personally define life, and go ahead, pick a side. There are a lot of issues with the ending I'm now learning that I've had 24 hours to reflect, but thematically, that part makes sense to me.

We pretty much agree on what the series is about. The shift, however, comes (and I should've been more clear on this) when the Catalyst says that synthetics will always try to destroy organic life. For three games, we've been told that we should all get along and help each other out. We are shown time and time again that we can get along with synthetics or warlike races or anyone different just fine, but the Catalyst comes in and says "Nope, robots will kill all humans. No exceptions!" It switches from a tale about making peace and understanding each other to a cautionary tale about the terrible robots.

[SalsaShark]

This goes for SalsaShark, too: What did you guys think of the sudden thematic shift to organics vs. synthetics?

Shit seriously came out of the blue as a main theme. It was somewhat hinted during the game but i didnt expect it to have that much weight on the final moments.

"synthetics will always try to destroy organic life"

I mean what? where did that came from?

[heliosRAzi]

Shit seriously came out of the blue as a main theme. It was somewhat hinted during the game but i didnt expect it to have that much weight on the final moments. "synthetics will always try to destroy organic life" I mean what? where did that came from?

It's even more jarring when ME3 goes out of its way to show you that every single time synthetic life rebelled, it was in self-defense. The researchers at Luna wanted to shut off the AI and it attacked them. Then it gets repurposed into EDI. The quarians are afraid that the geth are achieving sentience and try to shut them off, the geth respond by fighting back, but curiously, not immediately.

[John Harker]

We pretty much agree on what the series is about. The shift, however, comes (and I should've been more clear on this) when the Catalyst says that synthetics will always try to destroy organic life. For three games, we've been told that we should all get along and help each other out. We are shown time and time again that we can get along with synthetics or warlike races or anyone different just fine, but the Catalyst comes in and says "Nope, robots will kill all humans. No exceptions!" It switches from a tale about making peace and understanding each other to a cautionary tale about the terrible robots.

Got it.

Though, I wasn't surprised by that. The reapers represent that very belief: they are a synthetic life with the sole purpose of wiping out organics. That's what this AI life honestly believes - he created this cycle because in his time, that was the way of the world. And it's been that way for thousands of years, perpetuating due to the direct influence of this immensely powerful synthetic being. However, Shepard represents the antithesis of this... this whole journey was him DISPROVING that that very notion (which has been our direct lens in the universe). So, yes, the world in it's current state has synthetic life and organic life in perpetual conflict. Though Shepard is the catalyst for change, in that every major event we see this as a 'organics and synthetics working together' because that's the change this one man has had in the world.


The end question than is, do we go with the current 'order of things' (which in the terms of this universe, always ends with organic destruction at the hands of synthetics) or do we go with this 'new solution' brought on by the change Shepard has brought in the world? He just LITERALLY becomes a 'catalyst' at the end, instead of the metaphorical one he's been throughout the game.

[riceandbeans]

The ending still makes no sense. All cycles eventually face AI threats and Javik's cycle hated AI life. Instead of constantly repeating cycles, why the can't the Reapers just destroy all synthetic life to begin with and warn the organics not to mess with AI's. Why destroy both?

[Gui_PT]

The ending still makes no sense. All cycles eventually face AI threats and Javik's cycle hated AI life. Instead of constantly repeating cycles, why the can't the Reapers just destroy all synthetic life to begin with and warn the organics not to mess with AI's. Why destroy both?

I don't even think anyone should try to explain that. It's just stupid.

[riceandbeans]

I don't even think anyone should try to explain that. It's just stupid.

There's no need to call my response stupid. I think I make a legitimate point if they can wipe out an entire galaxy of organic and synthetic life. If you destroy the synthetics, then problem solved.

[Gui_PT]

There's no need to call my response stupid. I think I make a legitimate point if they can wipe out an entire galaxy of organic and synthetic life. If you destroy the synthetics, then problem solved.

What? No, not your post

By stupid, I meant the story they came up with in the game. It just doesn't make sense.

[Trigger]

There's no need to call my response stupid. I think I make a legitimate point if they can wipe out an entire galaxy of organic and synthetic life. If you destroy the synthetics, then problem solved.

Or just fuse them from the beginning. Shepard may have convinced them to consider the option with his plan (and the logic on that is fuzzy), but they've apparently had the tech this whole time. The story also doesn't really attempt to explain why FemShep is special genetically and should dive straight in to the light versus instead of throwing a toe in.

[EmCeeGramr]

Got it. Though, I wasn't surprised by that. The reapers represent that very belief: they are a synthetic life with the sole purpose of wiping out organics. That's what this AI life honestly believes - he created this cycle because in his time, that was the way of the world. And it's been that way for thousands of years, perpetuating due to the direct influence of this immensely powerful synthetic being. However, Shepard represents the antithesis of this... this whole journey was him DISPROVING that that very notion (which has been our direct lens in the universe). So, yes, the world in it's current state has synthetic life and organic life in perpetual conflict. Though Shepard is the catalyst for change, in that every major event we see this as a 'organics and synthetics working together' because that's the change this one man has had in the world. The end question than is, do we go with the current 'order of things' (which in the terms of this universe, always ends with organic destruction at the hands of synthetics) or do we go with this 'new solution' brought on by the change Shepard has brought in the world? He just LITERALLY becomes a 'catalyst' at the end, instead of the metaphorical one he's been throughout the game.

So a synthetic being believed that synthetics would always destroy all organics so he created a race of other synthetics to protect all organics by destroying some organics.

"All synthetics will destroy organics" is brought up as the main plot point in the last 10 minutes of a 120-hour RPG trilogy.


You honestly have no goddamned clue what you're talking about.