[Karsticles]

Goddammit Karsticles, I'm going to chew up your testicles. "Nature" means biological organisms, not the water and earth and all that shit. So she's in control of an ecosystem. And... And fuck it. :P Palutena's powerful, goddammit. Her friggin' captain kills half of these assholes you're talking about. [/late-night nerd rage]

Nu uh.

In ancient Greece, "natural philosophy" meant concern in the function in all things of the world. Nature covers dirt, air, etc.

Palutena's captain might even be stronger than her! ;-)

I love Palutena, don't get me wrong. I just don't think she's powerful compared to a lot of other forces in this game.

Oh, and that link got me 4 more idols - yay!

Yeah but, aside from Pit, all she has are the Centurions. ¬_¬

Yeah, and they get beat up by Magnus - rofl!

Different kind of "nature", as Viridi describes it. Let's be honest, placing her above Poseidon and Palutena combined sounds borderline ridiculous.

Where does she describe it, and what does she describe, that invalidates the claim? Viridi never interacts with Poseidon, so why think she's not stronger than him?

Possible, but we might be over thinking stuff here. Frankly, Thanatos is a bit of a joke.

Thanatos is a joke because he wants to be a joke. He's secret top tier!

[Jintor]

But he can't OTG by himself!

[Marlowe89]

Where does she describe it, and what does she describe, that invalidates the claim? Viridi never interacts with Poseidon, so why think she's not stronger than him?

Every single time she's brought up nature, she seems to refer specifically to the modern ecobiological context. I realize you oftentimes like to bring up ancient Greek philosophy and the like, but this is ultimately a video game. It obviously derives inspiration from Greek polytheism, but I honestly doubt we're receiving the culture in its entirety. I really do think you're reading a bit too far into this - do I have any way of proving who is stronger than who? Certainly not, but there's no real way of telling either way.

There's no reason to think she's stronger than Poseidon, either. Likewise, there's no reason to assume the reverse. It's simply unknowable.

About Dyntos: didn't his idol mention he was plausibly stronger than Hades?

[Karsticles]

Every single time she's brought up nature, she seems to refer specifically to the modern ecobiological context.

That's plainly false. Viridi's main soldier, Phosphora, deals solely with lightning power. Viridi creates a tornado for her to hide in (well, I assume Phosphora isn't the creator, but even if she is, it would still bring that under Viridi's realm). Viridi has a fucking rock for a soldier - she can animate basic natural materials into life!

The jokes are ecological, but that's it. The game has many instances of Viridi performing the kinds of feats that one would expect of a goddess that commands the classic form of nature.

There's no reason to think she's stronger than Poseidon, either. Likewise, there's no reason to assume the reverse. It's simply unknowable.

Except that she commands all of nature, and he just commands water. That's a good reason to think she might be above him.

[Neiteio]

Interesting thing to consider: Viridi's powers seem bound up in things outside of herself, actual weaponry that needs to be fashioned, whether it's a Reset Bomb Depot or a Lunar Sanctum. She neved demonstrates the ability to unleash destruction directly herself, like Palutena's Glam Cannon (or whatever she called it in the Hewdraw chapter), or any of Hades's numerous energy attacks. When she reigned destruction from the heavens, she did it with Reset Bombs, which are finite in number and must be grown first. Just kind of an interesting handicap to consider. Also, I think that tornado in Chapter 14 is always there, some remnant of the thunder god that once inhabited Thunder Cloud Temple. And Cragalanche willed himself to life and then swore allegiance to Viridi. Not that that changes anything. Karsticles is right that Viridi at least associates herself with elemental warriors that don't directly reflect lifeforms.

[Jintor]

The problem is that all these tier arguements are only visible from the viewpoint of pit who is forever chasing weapons with +4 speed or whatever

[Marlowe89]

Fucking hell. How could I suddenly forget about Viridi's warriors?!

Still, the sheer number of references she makes to ecology obviously means she deals with that, too. I'll concede it's probably a mixture of both, but I still think it's really stretching to assume that she specializes in water control to the same extent as Poseidon. Her having absolute mastery over everything the majority of gods only possess a portion of, I think, places her on an absurd pedestal that I just don't believe Sakurai ever intended to place her. A jack-of-all-trades, ace-of-none type goddess seems more likely to me.

[Karsticles]

Interesting thing to consider: Viridi's powers seem bound up in things outside of herself, actual weaponry that needs to be fashioned, whether it's a Reset Bomb Depot or a Lunar Sanctum. She neved demonstrates the ability to unleash destruction directly herself, like Palutena's Glam Cannon (or whatever she called it in the Hewdraw chapter), or any of Hades's numerous energy attacks. When she reigned destruction from the heavens, she did it with Reset Bombs, which are finite in number and must be grown first. Just kind of an interesting handicap to consider. Also, I think that tornado in Chapter 14 is always there, some remnant of the thunder god that once inhabited Thunder Cloud Temple. And Cragalanche willed himself to life and then swore allegiance to Viridi. Not that that changes anything. Karsticles is right that Viridi at least associates herself with elemental warriors that don't directly reflect lifeforms.

We never see Viridi fight, but I don't think we can conclude anything from that in particular. If not for a few written-in moments, we might assume the same about Palutena.

Regarding her creations, they're both special circumstances:
The Lunar Sanctum is not meant to be a weapon according to Arlon and Viridi, it's a prison. Presumably, the Chaos Fiend's nature is such that it needs to be held out in space in some kind of special containment unit, without biological material. It is worth noting that Viridi's space station is entirely made out of metals though, perhaps demonstrating that "nature" includes technology.

The Reset Bombs have to be grown because they're a very particular thing. Viridi says she uses them because they only destroy the human settlements. So, I imagine that her logic is that she could destroy them through other natural means like earthquakes, but that would cause a lot of animals to die as well. Reset Bombs only target the one threat, and that's why she prefers them for this particular occasion. The soldiers guarding the bombs are also clearly mechanical in nature, reinforcing the possibility for technology as an aspect of nature according to Viridi.

Still, the sheer number of references she makes to ecology obviously means she deals with that, too. I'll concede it's probably a mixture of both, but I still think it's really stretching to assume that she specializes in water control to the same extent as Poseidon. Her having absolute mastery over everything the majority of gods only possess a portion of, I think, places her on an absurd pedestal that I just don't believe Sakurai ever intended to place her. A jack-of-all-trades, ace-of-none type goddess seems more likely to me.

Undoubtedly she deals with ecology, too.

I think there's good reason to think she can handle Poseidon, but I'm not claiming that we know for sure. I'm just saying that given what we have in the game, the suggestion would be that Viridi's powers cover the kinds of things Poseidon can do, but not vice versa. There might be something to a speculation about specialization, but gods are not mortals, and it's not unreasonable for one to be an ace-of-all-trades (not that Viridi is one).

Also, just to be clear, I'm not a Viridi fanboy. I'm all about the Palutena.

Edit: One might use the following logic, too, which is a bit unwieldy:

1) Thanatos is presumably more powerful than Poseidon, since he set up shop in his ocean and Poseidon lets Palutena get him out instead of ousting Thanatos himself.
2) Thanatos loses to Phosphora in a duel.
3) Viridi outranks Phosphora, obviously.
4) Therefore, Viridi outranks Poseidon.

The logic is only shaky because Thanatos was probably not taking his battle with Phosphora seriously.

Is there any reason to suppose Poseidon is a high ranking deity? Aside from Palutena being respectful to him (which reinforces my idea that she's low ranking), all we have to go on is him being an old man with a long beard.

[NEO0MJ]

To be fair, most gods would according to its bio. Including Viridi, I'd wager. Hades and Dyntos are exceptions obv.

To be fair to the Chaos Kin, even Hades said he would rather not deal with that thing. The Chaos Kin never takes an opponent head on, rather sneaks around and flees if seen.

Reading through the idols, Hades is apparently above Dyntos and Poseidon: "He is immeasurably strong - even among the divine pantheon - but prefers to rule from the shadows, forcing Medusa to do his dirty work."

They way I see it, Dyntos isn't really that powerful in combat as one might expect, at least next to Hades, but his ability to build troop and weapons is above any other god (plus, his troops are much more powerful than the originals) and would probably win any fight by Zerg rushing his enemies.

1) Thanatos is presumably more powerful than Poseidon, since he set up shop in his ocean and Poseidon lets Palutena get him out instead of ousting Thanatos himself. 2) Thanatos loses to Phosphora in a duel. 3) Viridi outranks Phosphora, obviously. 4) Therefore, Viridi outranks Poseidon. The logic is only shaky because Thanatos was probably not taking his battle with Phosphora seriously. Is there any reason to suppose Poseidon is a high ranking deity? Aside from Palutena being respectful to him (which reinforces my idea that she's low ranking), all we have to go on is him being an old man with a long beard.

I really not sure that pure power is a way to judge a god's rank, or Pit will be king of Olympus.
Any well, Poseidon is one of the 3 big men in original Greek mythology, so no doubt he's pretty strong.

[Green Mamba]

Yeah, Medusa ripped Hades' head off, but then what?? Hades just said "lol no" and removed her from existence, and then willed a new head onto himself.

While Hades is clearly Medusa's superior, using this as an example isn't the best, as the Medusa vs. Hades idol states that Medusa attacks Hades in a depowered state, nowhere near her true strength.

If I were to take a guess at god power levels, it'd be so:

1st:
Zeus

2nd:
Dyntos

3rd:
Hades

4th:
Palutena
Medusa
Viridi

5th:
Thanatos
Pandora

There isn't enough information about Poseidon to guess. We have no idea why or how Thanatos first took up residence in the Seafloor palace.

Zeus is unnamed in the original Kid Icarus, but the original Japanese version basically calls him the Supreme God, so I think tip top would be best.

The Pseudo Palutena idol states pretty plainly that Dyntos is the most powerful god witnessed in Uprising.

Hades is obviously supremely powerful compared to the rest of the gods after Dyntos.

Palutena and Medusa at her peak (the original Kid Icarus) seem to go back and forth--Palutena cursed Medusa and cast her into the Underworld, but Medusa managed to take over Skyworld and hold Palutena ransom. The dichotomy between them seems pretty intentional--light and dark, two sides of the same coin, neither greater than the other.

There's nothing to indicate that Viridi is any more powerful than Palutena or Medusa, and she's definitely below Hades, so I don't see any issue there. Using a "who's subordinate beat who's" is just a ridiculous way of figuring things out considering then Palutena would win by default by having Pit. And basing it on what they have under their dominion doesn't seem right either because Thanatos certainly isn't all that powerful (despite having dominion over death) and I see no reason why nature would eclipse something ubiquitous as light or darkness.

Thanatos may be goofy but I really don't see anything that suggests he's all that powerful. Palutena's questioning of his rank seems to be based on his job title, not his actual powers. And Pandora was subservient to Medusa as well, and there's no way to tell how powerful she was in her original state--it's not clear if the Rewind Spring brought her true power back to her or just her body.

Pyrrhon may or may not be an actual god, so I didn't rank him.

[Neiteio]

Green Mamba wins the thread.

(Seriously -- I agree.)

[Marlowe89]

Didn't Poseidon's idol state he preferred not to directly involve himself with the war? I'd think that would explain why he let Palutena/Pit into his ocean instead of fishing Thanatos out himself - he was just giving a helpful nudge to what he hoped would be the winning side without interfering too much.

[Karsticles]

I still maintain that Viridi is a higher tier than Palutena (the contrary evidence of "I don't think so" isn't persuasive to me), and the game gave me fresh evidence today. I was playing Chapter 20 with claws when Viridi and Pit started doing the weapon chat. The conversation was talking about how Pit like swiping with the claws, and Viridi says:
"Then you would love my fingernails! One swipe with my nails will relocate entire rivers and mountain ranged. My nails can eviscerate the entire core of the earth!"

I doubt Medusa and Palutena can say the same.

Didn't Poseidon's idol state he preferred not to directly involve himself with the war? I'd think that would explain why he let Palutena/Pit into his ocean instead of fishing Thanatos out himself - he was just giving a helpful nudge to what he hoped would be the winning side without interfering too much.

The only reason anyone stays out of a war is being afraid of the consequences.

There's nothing to indicate that Viridi is any more powerful than Palutena or Medusa, and she's definitely below Hades, so I don't see any issue there. Using a "who's subordinate beat who's" is just a ridiculous way of figuring things out considering then Palutena would win by default by having Pit. And basing it on what they have under their dominion doesn't seem right either because Thanatos certainly isn't all that powerful (despite having dominion over death) and I see no reason why nature would eclipse something ubiquitous as light or darkness.

I don't think anyone was talking about subordinate battles...

Also, I am now doubting that Thanatos is actually under Medusa's command. Isn't it odd that in Chapter 9, he is not one of the boss fights you have to redo? Medusa's other commanders are there, but not Thanatos.

[NEO0MJ]

Also, I am now doubting that Thanatos is actually under Medusa's command. Isn't it odd that in Chapter 9, he is not one of the boss fights you have to redo? Medusa's other commanders are there, but not Thanatos.

Plus it was kinda obvious when Palutena questioned him at chapter 7 that he knew a whole lot more about what was really going on than what he lets out, even though he was pretty bad at hiding it.

[Green Mamba]

I still maintain that Viridi is a higher tier than Palutena (the contrary evidence of "I don't think so" isn't persuasive to me), and the game gave me fresh evidence today. I was playing Chapter 20 with claws when Viridi and Pit started doing the weapon chat. The conversation was talking about how Pit like swiping with the claws, and Viridi says: "Then you would love my fingernails! One swipe with my nails will relocate entire rivers and mountain ranged. My nails can eviscerate the entire core of the earth!" I doubt Medusa and Palutena can say the same.

This is of course assuming she's telling the truth. To me it seemed more like she was exaggerating her abilities as she's already established she is wont to do--Viridi claims that anything Palutena can do, she can do better, despite there being no evidence to support her claim. I really don't think we can just go by Viridi's word alone.

Also, I am now doubting that Thanatos is actually under Medusa's command. Isn't it odd that in Chapter 9, he is not one of the boss fights you have to redo? Medusa's other commanders are there, but not Thanatos.

I think the beginning of Chapter 9 is more of a reference to the original Kid Icarus where Twinbellows, Hewdraw, and Pandora were the three bosses--Tanatos was just a snake that Medusa kept shooting at you in the last battle. I wouldn't read too much into that. Gaol isn't present either.

That said, I do think that, at the very least Thanatos was aware of Hades despite the fact that Medusa was not as NEO0MJ notes.

[Marlowe89]

The only reason anyone stays out of a war is being afraid of the consequences.

Or they simply don't care and have no real interest in what's going on.

Poseidon is a god. It wasn't affecting him negatively, and I can imagine there being several unseen gods that were pretty much unconcerned with the issue as a whole; hence them not making an appearance. He was just a bit annoyed by the Underworld's antics, so he decided to grant Palutena's request. It's really not any more complicated than that.

[Green Mamba]

There are a few other established Kid Icarus gods--we got the unnamed God of Poverty, who doesn't seem to do anything but fuck with people who shoot his vases. Erinus (the enemy that splits into two halves) is apparently the God of Revenge according to the original Kid Icarus manual, the same one that contained the origin of Pandora as the Goddess of Calamity and Tanatos as the God of Death. This same manual also calls Uranos a Sky God and Holer the God of Plants (both enemies that do not appear in Uprising). Now, whether or not their status is still considered canon is debatable, but it's worth noting that Tanatos was no more of an individual character in the original Kid Icarus than Erinus, Uranos, and Holer.

If I were to rank them Erinus, Uranos, and Holer would all be rock bottom tier for obvious reasons. The God of Poverty would be another question mark like Poseidon; we really don't know what it's capable of.

[ScraftyDevil]

There are a few other established Kid Icarus gods--we got the unnamed God of Poverty, who doesn't seem to do anything but fuck with people who shoot vases. Erinus (the enemy that splits into two halves) is apparently the God of Revenge according to the original Kid Icarus manual, the same one that contained the origin of Pandora as the Goddess of Calamity and Tanatos as the God of Death. This same manual also calls Uranos a Sky God and Holer the God of Plants (both enemies that do not appear in Uprising). Now, whether or not their status is still considered canon is debatable, but it's worth noting that Tanatos was no more of an individual character in the original Kid Icarus than Erinus, Uranos, and Holer.

Don't forget that we also have a sun god (since Pyrrhon is described as the "self-proclaimed sun god and looks and acts more like an underling such as Arlon or Phosphora than the other gods) and a thunder god who isn't Zeus (in the description for the Thunder Cloud Temple idol).

The potential for new gods and goddesses in the KI universe is mostly untapped; they could go a lot deeper with it if they wanted to.

[abasm]

The potential for new gods and goddesses in the KI universe is mostly untapped; they could go a lot deeper with it if they wanted to.

Do we have sales numbers on this yet? I would not be at all surprised if Nintendo started tossing around franchise plans--there's a lot of untapped potential, and the design model established here could still be extended further. (Not to mention the fact that the mechanics would transfer easily to the Wii U.)

[ScraftyDevil]

Do we have sales numbers on this yet? I would not be at all surprised if Nintendo started tossing around franchise plans--there's a lot of untapped potential, and the design model established here could still be extended further. (Not to mention the fact that the mechanics would transfer easily to the Wii U.)

http://joystiq.com/2012/04/13/npd-ki...resident-evil/

It appears it's doing quite well. It would be very smart for Nintendo to make a sequel right now.

[Karsticles]

Plus it was kinda obvious when Palutena questioned him at chapter 7 that he knew a whole lot more about what was really going on than what he lets out, even though he was pretty bad at hiding it.

Yeah...Thanatos for final boss in the sequel IMO!

This is of course assuming she's telling the truth. To me it seemed more like she was exaggerating her abilities as she's already established she is wont to do--Viridi claims that anything Palutena can do, she can do better, despite there being no evidence to support her claim. I really don't think we can just go by Viridi's word alone.

You're really in denial if your only counter-argument is "maybe Viridi is lying", even though Viridi is the only one of the three deities that didn't lie to Pit IIRC. She's snotty, but it's pretty bad that you just have to assume she might be lying to hold on to your position.

I think the beginning of Chapter 9 is more of a reference to the original Kid Icarus where Twinbellows, Hewdraw, and Pandora were the three bosses--Tanatos was just a snake that Medusa kept shooting at you in the last battle. I wouldn't read too much into that. Gaol isn't present either.

Gaol isn't present because the chick inside the armor regains consciousness and full control of the armor - there's a really good reason Gaol isn't there... Every ranking official Medusa has is there, it seems. The Great Reaper isn't a military official, so it makes sense that he's not there.

That said, I do think that, at the very least Thanatos was aware of Hades despite the fact that Medusa was not as NEO0MJ notes.

Indeed. At the very least, Thanatos clearly has a higher military rank than Medusa.

Or they simply don't care and have no real interest in what's going on. Poseidon is a god. It wasn't affecting him negatively, and I can imagine there being several unseen gods that were pretty much unconcerned with the issue as a whole; hence them not making an appearance. He was just a bit annoyed by the Underworld's antics, so he decided to grant Palutena's request. It's really not any more complicated than that.

The Underworld is invading the living world. Medusa even had those beluga whale things floating in Poseidon's waters. Clearly they're not just after humans. And, clearly Poseidon cares, since he took Palutena's side over Medusa's. You can't claim he's simultaneously annoyed by the underworld troops while also not caring. That's ridiculous.

http://joystiq.com/2012/04/13/npd-ki...resident-evil/ It appears it's doing quite well. It would be very smart for Nintendo to make a sequel right now.

The problem with a sequel is that it wouldn't be made by Sakurai since he's busy with Brawl. It's not Kid Icarus that's awesome, it's Sakurai. Just think about what happened to Star Fox after 64...great games don't necessarily mean great follow-ups even if the formula is stolen.

[Marlowe89]

The Underworld is invading the living world. Medusa even had those beluga whale things floating in Poseidon's waters. Clearly they're not just after humans. And, clearly Poseidon cares, since he took Palutena's side over Medusa's. You can't claim he's simultaneously annoyed by the underworld troops while also not caring. That's ridiculous.

Why not? I don't see the contradiction in that claim. If Poseidon cares at all, it's only to the extent that he's willing to allow Palutena entrance to the ocean floor because he's irritated with Medusa's shit. The idol shows that he's unaffiliated with any particular alignment and even flat-out states that he's a "silent observer of the invasions in the surface world", which is reason enough to suggest he's not overly concerned about it.

You're vastly over-complicating this and it takes much, much more of a stretch to assume he's this insignificant, cowardly god than to simply acknowledge there's no way of telling how powerful he is.

You're really in denial if your only counter-argument is "maybe Viridi is lying", even though Viridi is the only one of the three deities that didn't lie to pie IIRC. She's snotty, but it's pretty bad that you just have to assume she might be lying to hold on to your position.

And you're not blindly assuming she's telling the truth, despite her exaggeratedly boastful and competitive nature with Palutena in general or the fact that she's the only one who really claimed that she could one-up the goddess of light anyway? I don't think we're being very reasonable here.

[Karsticles]

Why not? I don't see the contradiction in that claim. If Poseidon cares at all, it's only to the extent that he's willing to allow Palutena entrance to the ocean floor because he's irritated with Medusa's shit. The idol flat-out shows that he's unaffiliated with any particular alignment and even states that he's a "silent observer of the invasions in the surface world", which is reason enough to suggest he's not overly concerned about it.

To not care would indicate inaction. He's not just irritated - clearly Medusa is a problem for him since her troops are all over his waters and Thanatos has a damn base in his waters. In no world is having an un-allied military base in your land okay, even when you're a deity.

You're vastly over-complicating this and it takes much, much more of a stretch to assume he's this insignificant, cowardly god than to simply acknowledge there's no way of telling how powerful he is.

I never said he was insignificant or cowardly. I said that he's probably below Thanatos in rank.

And you're not blindly assuming she's telling the truth, despite her exaggeratedly boastful and competitive nature with Palutena in general or the fact that she's the only one who really claimed that she could one-up the goddess of light anyway? I don't think we're being very reasonable here.

It's not blind to take a character at her word when she has no reason to lie and has never lied in the game. This is a character who has even helped her opposing side on multiple occasions. I don't need to do a background check on every claim my wife makes because she doesn't lie to me, and it's ridiculous to suppose that Viridi is lying just because it would invalidate someone's pet perspective. Viridi might have a twisted outlook, but she's good natured (haw haw). She exaggerates and is boastful, but it seems like she has a right to be. All signs point toward Viridi being stronger than Palutena. Importantly, there is not a single shred of evidence to indicate that Palutena is as strong or stronger than Viridi.

[Neiteio]

Viridi's full of pride, AKA full of shit. She even has the cliche line of *cue musical theme* "Anything you can do, I can do bettah, anything you can do, I can do bettah than you!" I mean, c'mon people. Viridi also talked up her commanders like it was so OBVIOUS they would destroy Pit, and then oh what's that? Pit fucking killed them. Again: Viridi's full of shit. If there's anything you -shouldn't- take as proof of her power, it's her own fucking word. And it's all inconsequential in the end, because Viridi couldn't do anything to stop Palutena and Pit. Her bomb depot was destroyed, her commanders were slain (most of 'em). She hates humans but was never able to wave her hand to destroy any of them; otherwise, the bomb depot being down wouldn't have been a problem. A limited god. At least Palutena is seen flinging entire sky islands with her mind (Chapter 18 flight level). We don't really see any raw display like that from Viridi; just Viridi launching nukes she had to grow separately and couldn't will out of thin air. Bam!

[Marlowe89]

To not care would indicate inaction. He's not just irritated - clearly Medusa is a problem for him since her troops are all over his waters and Thanatos has a damn base in his waters. In no world is having an un-allied military base in your land okay, even when you're a deity.

To quote the idol further, "Poseidon grows annoyed with the Underworld's antics" - in those exact words. The game's text has indicated in no way, shape or form that Medusa's meddling was some extreme issue for him. He was almost certainly agitated by it, and he does seem to favor Palutena's side as a mere observer, so he parted the ocean at her request. That's literally all there is to it. Plain and simple.

It's not blind to take a character at her word

She exaggerates

I smell a contradiction here.

[Green Mamba]

I think we need a bit more evidence to Viridi being any more powerful than Palutena than Viridi's own word regarding her nails. All actual displays of Viridi's powers are based on weapons her army constructs (built in factories, not extensions of her powers) and vague gifts like the Power of Flight and Grind Rails, none of which are depicted as any greater than Palutena's--Viridi just claims they are. What other evidence is there? We're entirely going off of the word of a Goddess who seems to like to stretch the truth to make herself look better--she claims she almost defeated Hades (Hades!), she claims she can do anything Palutena does but better, and she claims her nails can rend mountains.

If she was really all powerful why did she need to rely so heavily on bombs she made in factories?

[Karsticles]

Viridi's full of pride, AKA full of shit. She even has the cliche line of *cue musical theme* "Anything you can do, I can do bettah, anything you can do, I can do bettah than you!" I mean, c'mon people. Viridi also talked up her commanders like it was so OBVIOUS they would destroy Pit, and then oh what's that? Pit fucking killed them. Again: Viridi's full of shit. If there's anything you -shouldn't- take as proof of her power, it's her own fucking word. And it's all inconsequential in the end, because Viridi couldn't do anything to stop Palutena and Pit. Her bomb depot was destroyed, her commanders were slain (most of 'em). She hates humans but was never able to wave her hand to destroy any of them; otherwise, the bomb depot being down wouldn't have been a problem. A limited god. At least Palutena is seen flinging entire sky islands with her mind (Chapter 18 flight level). We don't really see any raw display like that from Viridi; just Viridi launching nukes she had to grow separately and couldn't will out of thin air. Bam!

Full of pride is full of shit? What?

Viridi being confident in her commander in no way means she's a liar. I say commander because IIRC, the only one she said would absolutely rock pit is Phosphora. Anyone who sends a champion against an enemy champion is going to have confidence in his/her own champion, especially when it's a new foe. Viridi has never fought Pit before, but her commanders have likely fought a lot of battles and won for her before. Phosphora even beat the aloof Thanatos. It's ridiculous to suppose that means "Viridi is full of shit".

She doesn't want to "wave her hand" and destroy humans. She explains very, very clearly in the game why she uses reset bombs. Yes, she is a limited god in that she can't simply wish humans to disappear, but that's not in contradiction to anything I have been saying. The reset bombs are a special creation to let her have her cake and eat it too.

Palutena gets beaten by her own goddamn champion in 1 on 1 combat, if you want to use Chaos Kin-Palutena as an argument. As I said before, Viridi presumably creates the tornado Phosphora escapes into. She was also the major player in taking down the Chaos Kin twice, which ravaged Palutena.

It's honestly irksome that you think any of that is evidence. I don't intend to respond to anything after this unless the argument actually has some sense in it.

To quote the idol further, "Poseidon grows annoyed with the Underworld's antics" - in those exact words. The game's text has indicated in no way, shape or form that Medusa's meddling was some extreme issue for him. He was almost certainly agitated by it, and he does seem to favor Palutena's side as a mere observer, so he parted the ocean at her request. That's literally all there is to it. Plain and simple. I smell a contradiction here.

The word I ought to have chosen is "she boasts". I hope you have more of an argument than picking on poor word choice in one of my posts.

If you need the game to tell you that having an enemy fortress in your home land is a problem, I don't think I can help you.

I think we need a bit more evidence to Viridi being any more powerful than Palutena than Viridi's own word regarding her nails. All actual displays of Viridi's powers are based on weapons her army constructs (built in factories, not extensions of her powers) and vague gifts like the Power of Flight and Grind Rails, none of which are depicted as any greater than Palutena's--Viridi just claims they are. What other evidence is there? We're entirely going off of the word of a Goddess who seems to like to stretch the truth to make herself look better--she claims she almost defeated Hades (Hades!), she claims she can do anything Palutena does but better, and she claims her nails can rend mountains. If she was really all powerful why did she need to rely so heavily on bombs she made in factories?

I think the bombs are pretty clear in their unique function. It's not like they're just explosives, which would be evidence against Viridi being powerful.

I've talked a lot previously about things that suggest Viridi is more powerful than Palutena, but I have a crazy, whacked-out idea to settle this, and this idea is better than me going through and re-listing everything. Sakurai responds to his Twitter, right?...

Hopefully he responds:
https://twitter.com/#!/Karsticles/st...47307848843265

[Anteo]

I think we need a bit more evidence to Viridi being any more powerful than Palutena than Viridi's own word regarding her nails. All actual displays of Viridi's powers are based on weapons her army constructs (built in factories, not extensions of her powers) and vague gifts like the Power of Flight and Grind Rails, none of which are depicted as any greater than Palutena's--Viridi just claims they are. What other evidence is there? We're entirely going off of the word of a Goddess who seems to like to stretch the truth to make herself look better--she claims she almost defeated Hades (Hades!), she claims she can do anything Palutena does but better, and she claims her nails can rend mountains. If she was really all powerful why did she need to rely so heavily on bombs she made in factories?

It seems to me that gods don't like to fight by themselves. None of them. They always sent commanders to do their job. Even Hades didn't fight until the last few chapters.

Also, there is something bothering me. The Chariot Master talks about his old master, probably a former God. He shares his element with Phosphora (thunder/lightning) and has the Lightning chariot. Viridi looks younger that the other gods (asuming she has that form against her will and has to growup), so maybe (and this is something they can play in a sequel if they want) Viridi is the new goddess of nature (and thus younger than other gods), and the former god of nature was the Charion Master's.. well master.

Edit: Just noticed a couple of erros (Viridii)

[Karsticles]

It seems to me that gods don't like to fight by themselves. None of them. They always sent commanders to do their job. Even Hades didn't fight until the last few chapters. Also, there is something bothering me. The Chariot Master talks about his old master, probably a former God. He shares his element with Phosphora (thunder/lightning) and has the Lightning chariot. Viridii looks younger that the other gods (asuming she has that form against her will and has to growup), so maybe (and this is something they can play in a sequel if they want) Viridii is the new god of nature (and thus younger than other gods), and the former god of nature was the Charion Master.. well master.

That's a really cool hypothesis.

[GaimeGuy]

It seems to me that gods don't like to fight by themselves. None of them. They always sent commanders to do their job. Even Hades didn't fight until the last few chapters. Also, there is something bothering me. The Chariot Master talks about his old master, probably a former God. He shares his element with Phosphora (thunder/lightning) and has the Lightning chariot. Viridii looks younger that the other gods (asuming she has that form against her will and has to growup), so maybe (and this is something they can play in a sequel if they want) Viridii is the new god of nature (and thus younger than other gods), and the former god of nature was the Charion Master.. well master.

OR the chariot master was designed as the old prideful warrior-sage archetype.

[Anteo]

OR the chariot master was designed as the old prideful warrior-sage archetype.

Yeah that's a given. I was thinking in giving him more backstory. Maybe in a sequel someone starts reviving old warriors, we get Hades back that way but he won't be the only one. The former god of nature comes back too, along with some of his commanders and we are trapped in the middle of a civil war in the Forces of Nature.

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Sakurai responds to his Twitter, right?...

He does, but I've never seen him tweet in English.

[Marlowe89]

The word I ought to have chosen is "she boasts". I hope you have more of an argument than picking on poor word choice in one of my posts. If you need the game to tell you that having an enemy fortress in your home land is a problem, I don't think I can help you.

Right, and how was I supposed to know? Your poor word choice is a fault of yours, not mine. Viridi clearly exaggerates, which is really the only argument even necessary at this point.

Regarding Poseidon, you're putting words in my mouth. I don't need the game to tell me because the game itself (most specifically his idol description) has already suggested the contrary - that it isn't a very big problem for him, especially considering the Underworld isn't his "enemy" in the same way it is Palutena's and Viridi's. If you're seemingly in too much denial to accept that, I don't think I can help you either.

[Green Mamba]

I'm not at all convinced, Karsticles. Pretty much all of your evidence that I can see requires a rather specific interpretation of lines and events (there's no indication of what that tornado guarding the temple is at all). I'm really curious to all of these supposed signs that point to Viridi being more powerful than Palutena.

This is all based on a goddess we never actually see do anything herself. All of her confirmed actions are through her army or through granting generic gifts that are no different than the gifts that Palutena gives. Everything else seems to be very specific interpretations of certain lines.

Yeah that's a given. I was thinking in giving him more backstory. Maybe in a sequel someone starts reviving old warriors, we get Hades back that way but he won't be the only one. The former god of nature comes back too, along with some of his commanders and we are trapped in the middle of a civil war in the Forces of Nature.

Man, I've had this incredibly complex and fan wanky sequel concept in my head for the past few days. Maybe I'll post it someday.

It's got like Titans and shit.

[GaimeGuy]

I'm not at all convinced, Karsticles. Pretty much all of your evidence that I can see requires a rather specific interpretation of lines and events (there's no indication of what that tornado guarding the temple is at all). I'm really curious to all of these supposed signs that point to Viridi being more powerful than Palutena. This is all based on a goddess we never actually see do anything herself. All of her confirmed actions are through her army or through granting generic gifts that are no different than the gifts that Palutena gives. Everything else seems to be very specific interpretations of certain lines. Man, I've had this incredibly complex and fan wanky sequel concept in my head for the past few days. Maybe I'll post it someday. It's got like Titans and shit.

The only gifts palutena gives are hewdraw head attracting pheromones and lulz.

[Green Mamba]

The only gifts palutena gives are hewdraw head attracting pheromones and lulz.

I was mostly referring to the Power of Flight, Grind Rails, and floor food.

[Trancetronic]

So Pandora's human form. Now although it's canon, I think they really pulled that one out of their hat. It was cool to see, but I think they just did it to give Pandora more screen time. If the Rewind Spring is true, then would this mean that some of the other gods have human forms as well?

[Marlowe89]

Pretty sure Amazon Pandora is her true humanoid goddess form, like Palutena and Viridi and so on. I don't recall her ever being called a "human".

Or are you asking if some of the other gods have humanoid forms? The least human-looking of them all is Thanatos in Uprising, but it's still similar enough to the standard body frame of a god. The only thing that separates Pandora is the fact she was reverted to a mere ghost-like manifestation of her will some time ago. That'd make her the only one that isn't like the rest, and in that context, I think the whole Rewind Spring revelation made perfect sense.

[Green Mamba]

Another thing to consider, which I think should stop any talk of Viridi being clearly more powerful than Palutena in their tracks--why does she need Pit to use the Lightning Chariot to break through a barrier of Palutena's making?

[Neiteio]

Another thing to consider, which I think should stop any talk of Viridi being clearly more powerful than Palutena in their tracks--why does she need Pit to use the Lightning Chariot to break through a barrier of Palutena's making?

Exactly. Palutena's magic was impenetrable to Viridi.

Also, re: talking up their commanders, Viridi talked up Cragalanche as well, not just Phosphora. Both were felled by Pit in short order.

And re: the tornado, there's absolutely no indication it was created by Viridi. There's more reason to think it's a remnant of the thunder god that once occupied Thunder Cloud Temple, since the whole point of the tornado is to shield said temple.

And again, if Viridi were so powerful, she would've been able to wipe out humanity herself. Period. It's that simple. You can't argue past the fact that everything she did against humans required bombs to do so. If she were so powerful that she could control nature, she would be able to wipe out humans AND grow forests with her magic alone. Instead, she has to manufacture bombs that can do this.

Think what you're saying, Karsticles. You're saying a god who controls nature needs to use special, manufactured weapons to "eat her cake and have it too." No, if she were that powerful, a wave of her hand should suffice to kill AND grow. She never shows the ability to do either just by herself. She needs factories. If we go on the evidence we're given, this is all we can say.

We never see Viridi use any magic-based attacks. Palutena, on the other hand, nukes Hewdraw from space with her hyper beam (if you take too long on the battle against Three-Headed Hewdraw). Palutena also wields magic in one-on-one combat. These are things we know for fact. We can only -assume- Viridi would have similar capabilities. But if you go strictly off what the game shows -- if you're objective -- we see Viridi only using -weapons,- not actual powers. When it comes to destructive prowess, Palutena is the only one who shows she doesn't need "accessories."

And last but not least, Viridi is boastful. She is proud. She -does- exaggerate. She thinks she's better than everyone, and is repeatedly proven wrong. You can't take her word as proof of anything. I can't believe you're even trying to suggest that. It's like taking a politician at his word that he's the greatest thing for the country since sliced bread. Of course he's going to think that. They all do. It doesn't prove a thing.

[Karsticles]

Three more bits to consider:
1) In Chapter 11, Palutena addresses Viridi as "Ruler of the earth and all living things", and then later says she rules over "all of Earth" in the same chapter - it seems pretty likely that such a rank overshadows Poseidon.

2) If you want a manifestation of Viridi's power, seriously just play Chapter 14 and look at the environment. The context of the chapter makes it clear that it's Viridi creating a whole sky filled with chaotic tornados.

3) Meta-game, but the order of the treasure hunt screens. It's not strong evidence, but it's there.

Viridi also has the power to read people's fortunes, but I don't think that's particularly worthwhile to consider.

So Pandora's human form. Now although it's canon, I think they really pulled that one out of their hat. It was cool to see, but I think they just did it to give Pandora more screen time. If the Rewind Spring is true, then would this mean that some of the other gods have human forms as well?

I'm not sure how something that is planned can be pulled out of a hat. Pandora's idol even says she lost her human form through a mistake in her past.

Another thing to consider, which I think should stop any talk of Viridi being clearly more powerful than Palutena in their tracks--why does she need Pit to use the Lightning Chariot to break through a barrier of Palutena's making?

Do you have any arguments that aren't terrible? I think we all agree that each goddess is going to be better in her respective field. Palutena, as the goddess of light, likely has an edge over Viridi over protective magics. This doesn't make any more sense than me saying Palutena is weaker than Viridi because Palutena can't put up a protective force shield to stop reset bombs.

Plus, two more things to consider regarding the shield:
1) It's to be expected that all of the gods have some way of protecting themselves in some way that's difficult to breach. Otherwise they wouldn't all be around since they're so power hungry.

2) Palutena needs to "prepare" her Glam Blaster. Likely, the force field is the same kind of thing, where she took a while to prepare its construction. Viridi never attempts this kind of preparatory magic, so we simply don't have a corollary example. It's not like Palutena conjures the shield during your fight with her, or ever again to help out Pit. It stands to reason that it's a very strong, but limited, ability.

It also starts to get us into that frustrating area Marvel comic characters are frequently in. Who is more powerful, Storm or Wolverine? Well, Storm can create areas of mass disaster, but Wolverine would theoretically win in a 1 on 1 fight due to regenerative power and combat experience. It's worth considering whether, when we're talking about canon power tiers, we mean "who would beat who", or "who can do the most stuff". Big difference. Personally, I don't see it as a problem at all to my perspective that Palutena can do multiple things Viridi can't, or in my favor that Viridi can do things Palutena can't - it's not an argument about exclusivity.

Exactly. Palutena's magic was impenetrable to Viridi. Also, re: talking up their commanders, Viridi talked up Cragalanche as well, not just Phosphora. Both were felled by Pit in short order.

About Cragalanche, Viridi just says "I want you to meet one of my finest warriors". I don't recall anything more braggart than that being said.

And re: the tornado, there's absolutely no indication it was created by Viridi. There's more reason to think it's a remnant of the thunder god that once occupied Thunder Cloud Temple, since the whole point of the tornado is to shield said temple.

There are tornados all over the level. Smaller tornados are attacking Pit and Underworld enemies in the level, and Palutena has to create a hole for Pit to travel through while Phosphora goes through on her own.

And again, if Viridi were so powerful, she would've been able to wipe out humanity herself. Period. It's that simple. You can't argue past the fact that everything she did against humans required bombs to do so. If she were so powerful that she could control nature, she would be able to wipe out humans AND grow forests with her magic alone. Instead, she has to manufacture bombs that can do this.

The story strongly suggests that Viridi has "reset" humanity a few times in the past. She's not a pure god of will like the Christian god, she's Greek. You don't measure deity conceptions like that. The fact is that she can grow bombs that kill only a particular living creature. It's weird that people are calling this out as a limitation instead of a strength. I would love to see Palutena have the power to wipe out all of only one particular life form in an area.

Think what you're saying, Karsticles. You're saying a god who controls nature needs to use special, manufactured weapons to "eat her cake and have it too." No, if she were that powerful, a wave of her hand should suffice to kill AND grow. She never shows the ability to do either just by herself. She needs factories. If we go on the evidence we're given, this is all we can say.

It's very confusing to me why you think my claim that Viridi is stronger than Palutena equates to Viridi being omnipotent. I can't even respond to this.

We never see Viridi use any magic-based attacks. Palutena, on the other hand, nukes Hewdraw from space with her hyper beam (if you take too long on the battle against Three-Headed Hewdraw). Palutena also wields magic in one-on-one combat. These are things we know for fact. We can only -assume- Viridi would have similar capabilities. But if you go strictly off what the game shows -- if you're objective -- we see Viridi only using -weapons,- not actual powers. When it comes to destructive prowess, Palutena is the only one who shows she doesn't need "accessories."

Tornados. It also stands to good reason that if Phosphora can shoot out lightning at will, Viridi at least has that going for her. Let's not forget that the Palutena boss fight is the easiest fight in the game...well, it would be without the Aurum bosses, at least.

And last but not least, Viridi is boastful. She is proud. She -does- exaggerate. She thinks she's better than everyone, and is repeatedly proven wrong. You can't take her word as proof of anything. I can't believe you're even trying to suggest that. It's like taking a politician at his word that he's the greatest thing for the country since sliced bread. Of course he's going to think that. They all do. It doesn't prove a thing.

There's a difference between a claim like "I'm the best thing ever", which is boastful and can be evidence of overconfidence in oneself against an unknown foe, and "I have done and can do explicit act X", which would simply have to be a lie if it were not the case. I can't believe I have to take the time to explain the difference between overconfidence, which is a error in judgment, and lying, which is speaking against what is already known, several times on this forum. If Viridi says her fingernails can displace mountains and rivers, there's absolutely no precedent to suggest she's not telling the truth. In truth, it makes far more sense that this is true, and Viridi is boastful through the rest of the game because she can do these awesome things.

[Green Mamba]

Once again, Karsticles, your entire argument hinges on your own personal and rather specific interpretation of events and lines. There is absolutely nothing in Chapter 14 or any related idols that suggests the storm is in any way Viridi's doing (and they certainly never attack Underworld troops as if sentient like you were suggesting). It could just as likely be something put in place long ago to protect the Thunder Cloud Temple, which was known to previously be home to a storm god. I can't help but feel that if they were a direct extension of Viridi's powers the game would have clearly stated as such. The only way I can see someone thinking they're of Viridi's doing would be if that person wanted Viridi to be making them.

Beyond that you have Viridi's own word, which we have no reason to take it at face value, because we never see a confirmed use of her Goddess powers outside of basic gifts that Palutena grants as well, which Viridi claims are better but aren't actually any different. Why should one take her words at face value when she clearly has a penchant for exaggeration? Her oft repeated line is "Anything Palutena can do, I can do better," of which there is absolutely zero evidence for and seems like a straight up lie--her Power of Flight is no better than Palutena's, her Grind Rails don't move faster or anything, her floor food certainly isn't tastier. Beyond that we have nothing to go on. You're comparing a Goddess we actually see do several feats of power to one we have to rely entirely on her own words. I really don't see how you can call Viridi clearly more powerful than Palutena when we have so little to go on.

You keep saying that Viridi is boastful because she's just as awesome as she says, but what evidence is there of Viridi's great feats? We have the tornadoes, which are never, ever equated with her powers (I'd just as soon assume they were a creation of Hades to screw everyone up and attempt to prevent Phosphora from getting to the temple), some weapons of which we don't know how they were constructed, and then generic gifts that are no better than Palutena's (though once again, I feel I have to repeat that Viridi claims they are better than Palutena's, at best a serious exaggeration, at worst a flat out lie). Beyond that there's nothing. That to me sounds like a braggart puffing herself up to sound better than she actually is.

If anyone is twisting facts around to protect a pet perspective it's definitely you. The evidence (not speculation, evidence) just doesn't fit your hypothesis.

I also do not agree with your claim that Poseidon must be ranked below Viridi because of what she has dominion over--I could just as soon claim that Viridi has to be ranked below Palutena because Palutena has dominion over light, the progenitor of life's food chain and a force that defines the lives of all living things. Which is just silly.

[Neiteio]

Three more bits to consider: 1) In Chapter 11, Palutena addresses Viridi as "Ruler of the earth and all living things", and then later says she rules over "all of Earth" in the same chapter - it seems pretty likely that such a rank overshadows Poseidon.

In that case Palutena outranks Viridi as the Goddess of Light, which extends not only across the earth but a good swathe of the heavens as well. How convenient!

2) If you want a manifestation of Viridi's power, seriously just play Chapter 14 and look at the environment. The context of the chapter makes it clear that it's Viridi creating a whole sky filled with chaotic tornados.

No. Did you not notice a little place called Thunder Cloud Temple, clearly attributed to a storm god? Funny coincidence the storm god's temple is surrounded by storms, no? Might have something to do with the storm god. Last I checked, that was someone else.

3) Meta-game, but the order of the treasure hunt screens. It's not strong evidence, but it's there.

If Viridi were important enough to be the second most important character in the game after Pit, her board probably would've been first. But not everyone can be as awesome as Palutena. :P

Viridi also has the power to read people's fortunes, but I don't think that's particularly worthwhile to consider.

Palutena can curse people so their appearance reflects their heart. I think that trumps palm reading.

Do you have any arguments that aren't terrible? I think we all agree that each goddess is going to be better in her respective field. Palutena, as the goddess of light, likely has an edge over Viridi over protective magics. This doesn't make any more sense than me saying Palutena is weaker than Viridi because Palutena can't put up a protective force shield to stop reset bombs. Plus, two more things to consider regarding the shield: 1) It's to be expected that all of the gods have some way of protecting themselves in some way that's difficult to breach. Otherwise they wouldn't all be around since they're so power hungry. 2) Palutena needs to "prepare" her Glam Blaster. Likely, the force field is the same kind of thing, where she took a while to prepare its construction. Viridi never attempts this kind of preparatory magic, so we simply don't have a corollary example. It's not like Palutena conjures the shield during your fight with her, or ever again to help out Pit. It stands to reason that it's a very strong, but limited, ability. It also starts to get us into that frustrating area Marvel comic characters are frequently in. Who is more powerful, Storm or Wolverine? Well, Storm can create areas of mass disaster, but Wolverine would theoretically win in a 1 on 1 fight due to regenerative power and combat experience. It's worth considering whether, when we're talking about canon power tiers, we mean "who would beat who", or "who can do the most stuff". Big difference. Personally, I don't see it as a problem at all to my perspective that Palutena can do multiple things Viridi can't, or in my favor that Viridi can do things Palutena can't - it's not an argument about exclusivity.

What we can say, though, is Palutena is proven to be capable of actual offensive and defense magic powers. The only magic we see Viridi demonstrate is the Power of Flight, Grind Rails, warping people out and dropping off food. The mere fact Palutena has the Glam Blaster and shield demonstrates she can do things herself. She can even change people's physical appearances (the curse on Medusa). Viridi depends on tools, and her toys don't prove much use against Pit.

About Cragalanche, Viridi just says "I want you to meet one of my finest warriors". I don't recall anything more braggart than that being said.

Really? You don't remember her saying, smugly, "I'll be interested to see how you fare against Cragalanche," and Pit retorting, "You should be more worried about how he fares against me?" (Beginning of Chapter 14 ground portion)

There are tornados all over the level. Smaller tornados are attacking Pit and Underworld enemies in the level, and Palutena has to create a hole for Pit to travel through while Phosphora goes through on her own.

Yes, which proves nothing. Who's to say Viridi didn't do for Phosphora what Palutena did for Pit? Who's to say all those storms aren't part of what was once the storm god's domain?

The story strongly suggests that Viridi has "reset" humanity a few times in the past. She's not a pure god of will like the Christian god, she's Greek. You don't measure deity conceptions like that. The fact is that she can grow bombs that kill only a particular living creature. It's weird that people are calling this out as a limitation instead of a strength. I would love to see Palutena have the power to wipe out all of only one particular life form in an area.

Palutena fires hyper beams from heaven and forms a shield Viridi can't break. Also, if that tornado was a shield made by Viridi, it sure did nothing to stop Palutena (though again, there's nothing to suggest the tornado was made by Viridi, as I already said).

Again, needing a factory-constructed bomb to take care of your enemies means she's not much of a threat by herself. She'd get fucked over just like the rest of them if Pit had his way with her. Good thing she realized this and backed down at the end of the game, realizing by that point she could do nothing but argue against Pit and Palutena. Hence, the lesser goddess was left to her frustration.

It's very confusing to me why you think my claim that Viridi is stronger than Palutena equates to Viridi being omnipotent. I can't even respond to this.

I never said anyone is claiming Viridi is omnipotent. I'm saying we have no evidence to think Viridi has any destructive power herself, only what she can build in a factory: a few reset bombs from a depot, and a spare she wastes on Aurum Pyrrhon.

Tornados. It also stands to good reason that if Phosphora can shoot out lightning at will, Viridi at least has that going for her. Let's not forget that the Palutena boss fight is the easiest fight in the game...well, it would be without the Aurum bosses, at least.

Again, there's nothing to prove the tornados are Viridi's, for reasons already enumerated. And ha, at least Palutena can fight. We never see Viridi use any fighting technique, so you imagining she's a great warrior because she can push a red button is fan fiction at best. Not to mention she couldn't crack Palutena's shield without yet another weapon (Lightning Chariot), and that Palutena would've been unleashing hyper beams on Pit like she did on Hewdraw had the Chaos Kin not been in control.

There's a difference between a claim like "I'm the best thing ever", which is boastful and can be evidence of overconfidence in oneself against an unknown foe, and "I have done and can do explicit act X", which would simply have to be a lie if it were not the case. I can't believe I have to take the time to explain the difference between overconfidence, which is a error in judgment, and lying, which is speaking against what is already known, several times on this forum. If Viridi says her fingernails can displace mountains and rivers, there's absolutely no precedent to suggest she's not telling the truth. In truth, it makes far more sense that this is true, and Viridi is boastful through the rest of the game because she can do these awesome things.

She doesn't do any awesome things. She drops a bomb her troops made. Whoop de doo. And if you can't pick up the fact she's a braggart, which is evident time and again in the script, you're tone-deaf. She even parodies the song "Anything you can do, I can do better," the quintessential braggart song.

[ScraftyDevil]

Can we please stop arguing this? Which goddess is the most powerful had literally no bearing on the story, and these arguments have long since degenerated into petty one-upmanship. Can we just agree that there is simply not enough evidence to definitively settle this and talk about what's in the game rather than what isn't?

[Neiteio]

Can we please stop arguing this? Which goddess is the most powerful had literally no bearing on the story, and these arguments have long since degenerated into petty one-upmanship. Can we just agree that there is simply not enough evidence to definitively settle this and talk about what's in the game rather than what isn't?

Hey now! Like any good superhero story (which this essentially is), arguing who trumps what is half the fun! :P

[ScraftyDevil]

Hey now! Like any good superhero story (which this essentially is), arguing who trumps what is half the fun! :P

Well, everyone has their own opinions. Batman is the best superhero, Alien is better than Predator, and Wind Waker is better than Ocarina of Time. Those are mine. The point I'm trying to make is that when everyone starts pushing their opinions as facts, no one can come to an agreement.

This argument was fun and interesting 3 days ago, but since then literally every post has been stating and restating the same "facts," and I just want a little change of pace.

Why don't one of you create a poll? That could decide once and for all what the public opinion is, as long as you word it right.

[NEO0MJ]

Alien is better than Predator,

Pretty sure predator was the better monster. it can turn invisible, has incredible tracking abilities, sees infrared, a super accurate shoulder mounted plasma canon, and the ability to actually think. Plus Arnold and an army of roided dudebros showed up in its movie.
What does the alien have going for it? Acid blood and a short range biting tongue.

[ScraftyDevil]

Pretty sure predator was the better monster. it can turn invisible, has incredible tracking abilities, sees infrared, a super accurate shoulder mounted plasma canon, and the ability to actually think. Plus Arnold and an army of roided dudebros showed up in its movie. What does the alien have going for it? Acid blood and a short range biting tongue.

Predator is the deadlier creature; I'll give you that, but Xenomorphs always fight in packs as they're about as resilient as swiss cheese and their main tactic is overwhelming the enemy.

However, to argue that Predator is a better movie than Alien or especially Aliens is just foolishness.

[NEO0MJ]

Predator is the deadlier creature; I'll give you that, but Xenomorphs always fight in packs as they're about as resilient as swiss cheese and their main tactic is overwhelming the enemy. However, to argue that Predator is a better movie than Alien or especially Aliens is just foolishness.

But as we saw in the AvP movies a single Predator managed to take out an entire town-worth of Xenomorphs.
And I wasn't debating that Predator was the better movie, just that it had a funner cast.

On topic though, I agree with Neiteio. Viridi reallu hasn't done anything on screen or even off screen to marvel about.

[ScraftyDevil]

But as we saw in the AvP movies a single Predator managed to take out an entire town-worth of Xenomorphs. And I wasn't debating that Predator was the better movie, just that it had a funner cast.

The AvP movies were written by some hack who completely screwed up the history and abilities of both the Xenomorphs and the Predators, so I'd rather not bring those up.

Looking at just their individual abilities, Xenomorphs would win if they had numbers on their side, but Predators would if it were one-on-one (or even ten-on-one). They're very different creatures representing primal ability and trained skill respectively, so it hard to compare them fairly.