[jeff_rigby]

There will be no realtime Cell emulation in 2013. Most likely there will not be any in 2020 either. To do it you at the very very least need 7 cores clocked at 3.2 Ghz or higher that can do the same operations per clock that an SPE can, and offer the terabytes/s of local store bandwidth available on Cell. Just. Not. Happening. It is generally not possible to use a large number of simpler, slower "cores" to emulate a single fast core in real time.

You are technically correct but the idea is to emulate the processes (not emulate the processor) that take place in a PS3 on a PS4. If the process includes multiple loops on data and the instructions can fit into a SPU's cache it's blindingly fast. If the process is working on a very large data set a GPU can be setup to perform the process 30 times faster than a SPU can perform on the same data set. A combination of a modern X86-64 processor and a 400 core GPU used properly can come closer to real time simulating a Cell processor than ever before.

The PS3 OS contains a number of known processes that use SPU code that could be simulated in real time using a PS4 APU or even discrete hardware. The PS3 OS used SPUs for DSP duty and with Sony stating that they are going with SOC it's not as much of a hit to have discrete hardware.

As you know Cell simulators have been available for years and modeling software that can model Cell functionality using multiple plugin models of for instance GPU parallel processors has been available since 2007, one was developed by Barcelona Supercomputer Center. BSC also developed the first Cell simulator for IBM. PS3 Backward Compatibility running on a different processor and different GPU is going to be incredibly difficult. Is it even possible, what memory processes are going to be needed, clock speeds for CPU and GPU etc? I don't know, I don't think Sony knows/knew but BSC has been doing comparisons, designing HPC systems using GPUs and has the Cell modeling software they developed. BSC is also publishing papers on improving cell software functionality as of Nov 2011 that could be included in future PS3 compilers.

There is a rumor that BSC is working on a Cell2 for a PS4. This could be a early rumor and no longer true or it could be that BSC is working on a PS3 Cell simulator for a PS4 and giving feedback to Sony on what hardware and memory systems would be needed to simulate a PS3 on a PS4. Or another possible, BSC could be working on the PS4 OS and design with PS3 BC not even a possible.

BC is an important feature and it can be accomplished by including a Cell processor in the PS4, by possibly including a few SPUs or it might be possible to simulate a PS3 using the APU and other hardware in a PS4 so that well behaved PS3 software works.

PS4 Developer kits would not need to have Cell processors included if they are only being used for BC which I think would be wasteful so unlikely and the APU can provide the same Cell general functionality 3-30? times faster if used properly so including cell is again wasteful.

If it is possible to simulate a PS3 on a PS4, this is something that developers with PS4 development kits would not NEED TO KNOW so it can't leak and since it's incredibly difficult to do, the ASSUMPTIONS are that there will be no BC.

The Xbox Durango is going to have Backward compatibility without much difficulty. It's extremely important that the PS4 have PS3 backward compatibility.

[Globox_82]

It's extremely important that the PS4 have PS3 backward compatibility.

No it isn't. Only small % cares about BC and even half of those that think that they care won't ever again touch PS3 games once PS4 games start hitting.
The only BC that matter is PSN content since it's digital and digital games won't see major leap since they are not the selling point. Even then I doubt many will go back and reply anything.
It's like free PS1 classics you get if you are PSn+ member. You think you care, but you don't really care.

[brain_stew]

You are technically correct but the idea is to emulate the processes (not emulate the processor) that take place in a PS3 on a PS4. If the process includes multiple loops on data and the instructions can fit into a SPU's cache it's blindingly fast. If the process is working on a very large data set a GPU can be setup to perform the process 30 times faster than a SPU can perform on the same data set. A combination of a modern X86-64 processor and a 400 core GPU used properly can come closer to simulating a Cell processor than ever before. The PS3 OS contains a number of known processes that use SPU code that could be simulated in real time using a PS4 APU or even discrete hardware. The PS3 OS used SPUs for DSP duty and with Sony stating that they are going with SOC it's not as much of a hit to have discrete hardware. As you know Cell simulators have been available for years and modeling software that can model Cell functionality using multiple plugin models of for instance GPU parallel processors has been available since 2007, one was developed by Barcelona Supercomputer Center. BSC also developed the first Cell simulator for IBM. PS3 Backward Compatibility running on a different processor and different GPU is going to be incredibly difficult. Is it even possible, what memory processes are going to be needed, clock speeds for CPU and GPU etc? I don't know, I don't think Sony knows/knew but BSC has been doing comparisons, designing HPC systems using GPUs and has the Cell modeling software they developed. BSC is also publishing papers on improving cell software functionality as of Nov 2011 that could be included in future PS3 compilers. There is a rumor that BSC is working on a Cell2 for a PS4. This could be a early rumor and no longer true or it could be that BSC is working on a PS3 Cell simulator for a PS4 and giving feedback to Sony on what hardware and memory systems would be needed to simulate a PS3 on a PS4. BC is an important feature and it can be accomplished by including a Cell processor in the PS4, by possibly including a few SPUs or it might be possible to simulate a PS3 using the APU and other hardware in a PS4 so that well behaved PS3 software works. PS4 Developer kits would not need to have Cell processors included if they are only being used for BC which I think would be wasteful so unlikely and the APU can provide the same Cell general functionality 3-30? times faster if used properly so including cell is again wasteful. If it is possible to simulate a PS3 on a PS4, this is something that developers with PS4 development kits would not NEED TO KNOW so it can't leak and since it's incredibly difficult to do the ASSUMPTIONS are that there will be no BC. The Xbox Durango is going to have Backward compatibility without much difficulty. It's extremely important that the PS4 have PS3 backward compatibility.

I don't think you grasp quite how low level access to CELL was in PS3. In some cases we're talking assembly code and very finely grained scheduling.

There's not a simple list of APIs to convert and that applies to parts of RSX as well. You'd need full emulation, which is impossible. I assure you, Durante knows what he's talking about.

BC on Durango will certainly not be easy, the fact that Microsoft invested in silicon in the latest 360 revision to slow it down in order to ensure compatability shows how precise this sort of thing needs to be. I expect it to happen but the hardware will still have to be built with it in mind if MS want something approaching 100% compatability.

[deadlast]

.... The only BC that matter is PSN content since it's digital and digital games won't see major leap since they are not the selling point. ....

This, a thousand times over. The only BC I care about for the next gen is what I have purchased digitally.

[dr_rus]

No it isn't. Only small % cares about BC and even half of those that think that they care won't ever again touch PS3 games once PS4 games start hitting. The only BC that matter is PSN content since it's digital and digital games won't see major leap since they are not the selling point. Even then I doubt many will go back and reply anything. It's like free PS1 classics you get if you are PSn+ member. You think you care, but you don't really care.

The percentage of caring about BC will be much higher next time because of all the PSN (and XBLA for that matter) games people bought on their PS3s (360s). PSV having BC (kinda) with PSP is the best thing that there is on PSV right now. Of course you can recompile all the PSN PS3 games for a new x86 platform and emulate the RSX to some extent but that will take time and I personally would like to still be able to play my Limbo from PSStore on a PS4 on a day of release. When you've started to build up an online back catalogue of all your titles it is highly unadvisable to just break it with your next platform. I can see that PS4 may do that because of PS3 being highly unusual in it's h/w but if I was the one who decides right now on where to move the PS after PS4 I'd make sure that PS5 will be able to have BC with PS4. Otherwise it's just getting stupid. I personally won't buy ICO/SoTC HD remakes for PS4 again as I've already bought them for PS3.

[SonnyBoy]

NVM

[painful fart]

I fear that the NFL is on a very slippery slope. With that recording of Gregg being made public, how is this going to affect current coaches in their efforts to motivate players. A coach who is well within the lines of reason may now be a lot more timid in his rally cries because someone may be recording him.

Thanks for bringing some common sense to this thread.

[jeff_rigby]

I don't think you grasp quite how low level access to CELL was in PS3. In some cases we're talking assembly code and very finely grained scheduling. There's not a simple list of APIs to convert and that applies to parts of RSX as well. You'd need full emulation, which is impossible. I assure you, Durante knows what he's talking about.

No, I didn't know there was so much low level, to the metal, code in the PS3. If that is the case then BC is VERY unlikely even if including SPUs. I have a hard time believing that there was no thought to forward compatibility.... Really pushing to get 100% out of the hardware because of competition and an assumption that a future console would have even more SPUs? I heard that developers were being told to expect 100's of SPUs by PS5.

[sTeLioSco]

the only way to have bc is with including the cell/rsx on a ps4 sku....
the more expensive one for example....

or an addon.

[iceatcs]

People forgot that PS2 have PSX chip for BC, Old 60GB PS3 have PS2 chips for BC.

There is no way they will let it software BC only for free everyone (too much work, very very large QA testers (MS close it down)). If they want to PS3 game on PS4, they will sell it classic digital, or remaster.

The big ? is will they going to include PS3 chips in the next system or go for digital like PS2 classic from PSN atm.

[Fafalada]

BC on Durango will certainly not be easy

When it comes to GPUs, both MS and Sony allowed access to manual Push-Buffer building, and in 360 case you also got to play with hw-specific shader opcodes.

In some cases we're talking assembly code and very finely grained scheduling.

To be fair, you got that on all console CPUs (including 360) as well. Right down to fine-grained cache-management. What you didn't get is direct access to synchronization-hw (unlike the PS2, or any console before it for that matter). Whether the abstraction in place was enough to help emulation remains to be seen, but this generation was nothing like generations before it in terms of hw-access.

[zoukka]

This, a thousand times over. The only BC I care about for the next gen is what I have purchased digitally.

Can't wait to see if we get assfucked by the companies or if they have the tiniest backbone left in them.

[iceatcs]

Can't wait to see if we get assfucked by the companies or if they have the tiniest backbone left in them.

iOS and Android through that. It is up to devs, that can fix by patch.

But Live and PSN contents are mostly publishers control :(
Hopefully it won't be bad.

[see5harp]

iOS and Android through that. It is up to devs, that can fix by patch. But Live and PSN contents are mostly publishers control :( Hopefully it won't be bad.

I'm not a computer programmer or business major but leaving patching up the developers does not seem like the way you will get BC for next gen. It's up to the platform holders to make it effortless. iPads would run every iPhone app at native resolution from day one without any patches. Leaving stuff up to developers to fix is not a solution to this problem.

[SonnyBoy]

Thanks for bringing some common sense to this thread.

LOLOL, crap... Sorry guys, wrong thread.

[jimi_dini]

It's like free PS1 classics you get if you are PSn+ member. You think you care, but you don't really care.

So PS3 games will be like PS1 games on PS4? Are you kidding?

As if Uncharted 1/2/3 would look terri-bad compared to PS4 games.

Also thats like saying: as soon as you got a BluRay player, you won't watch DVDs anymore (although PS3 games are already somewhat HD).


And if this was true, then why do I keep all my old games? Following your logic, I should sell them all away. Oh wait, I don't. And the publishers/developers also don't want me to sell them (because used is bad). That's because I like to play classics as well. For example I played lots of Sierra adventures. You know, Sierra adventures that wouldn't work on modern PCs anymore, if there wasn't ScummVM/DOS-Box. If you don't play classics, don't assume everyone acts like you do.

[iceatcs]

I'm not a computer programmer or business major but leaving patching up the developers does not seem like the way you will get BC for next gen. It's up to the platform holders to make it effortless. iPads would run every iPhone app at native resolution from day one without any patches. Leaving stuff up to developers to fix is not a solution to this problem.

That's not true, some apps are not working till the patch, or not at all because no more support.

[phosphor112]

No it isn't. Only small % cares about BC and even half of those that think that they care won't ever again touch PS3 games once PS4 games start hitting. The only BC that matter is PSN content since it's digital and digital games won't see major leap since they are not the selling point. Even then I doubt many will go back and reply anything. It's like free PS1 classics you get if you are PSn+ member. You think you care, but you don't really care.

If you can't play the PS3 games you own on disc, then don't expect the PSN ones to work either.

THAT is why BC is important, because without it those PSN games are GONE.

Can't wait to see if we get assfucked by the companies or if they have the tiniest backbone left in them.

Any company that tries to ass fuck me won't see my money.

Activision and EA are already on that list.. I fucking love Burnout games too. =/

Sony is about to be next if there is no BC. I'll wait until final hardware is revealed.

[see5harp]

That's not true, some apps are not working till the patch, or not at all because no more support.

What I meant was that it would run them all at native (iPhone) resolution. Nonetheless Sony changing their hardware configuration every round and just including previous gen hardware in the build is not the same thing as iOS. Every app I've ever bought since the iPhone 1 works on my iPad and I do not think developers had to do anything extra. Some do not run in iPad resolution and pixels have to be doubled but they work. If the devs want to leverage the increase in resolution or increase in power to do more, then yes they should be given the ability to patch and add content. BC should work out the box.

[iceatcs]

What I meant was that it would run them all at native (iPhone) resolution. Nonetheless Sony changing their hardware configuration every round and just including previous gen hardware in the build is not the same thing as iOS. Every app I've ever bought since the iPhone 1 works on my iPad. Some do not run in iPad resolution and pixels have to be doubled but they work.

There are some apps cannot run at all.

[see5harp]

There are some apps cannot run at all.

Okay some apps may not work anymore...you still feel as though BC support should be up the developers? Sony benefits most (financially) from making sure BC is working across all PS3 software. They get an instant library of content on the store and they get more people interested in buying into the platform.

EDIT: I may be confused with what you originally said. I thought you were saying that developers were the reason iOS had solved the BC problem. I thought that had more to do with Apple making sure hardware and software ecosystem worked moving forward.

[iceatcs]

What I mean is that BC become more important because of the digital content, which I agreed. But it is not first time the digital content won't run on next device.

Windows phone might be better example (poor ecosystem like PS2 to PS3). I think all of old untouched apps won't run on new Windows ARM phone.
Even good hardware ecosystem like iPhone devices show that it can lose little of compatibility on the next model.

So nothing is perfect.

[MrBelmontvedere]

I'm not a computer programmer or business major but leaving patching up the developers does not seem like the way you will get BC for next gen. It's up to the platform holders to make it effortless. iPads would run every iPhone app at native resolution from day one without any patches. Leaving stuff up to developers to fix is not a solution to this problem.

you are correct that it's not a good solution. but excepting a few major first party titles, and basically anything that has sold in massive quantities, that is the "solution" to be expected. either that, or a few select titles will be recoded for PS4.

so basically, forget about PS3->PS4 BC. Sony isn't going to include a CELL/RSX in every PS4. It's just not going to happen; PS4 will be cost reduced up the ass from day one IMHO.

[bobbytkc]

you are correct that it's not a good solution. but excepting a few major first party titles, and basically anything that has sold in massive quantities, that is the "solution" to be expected. either that, or a few select titles will be recoded for PS4. so basically, forget about PS3->PS4 BC. Sony isn't going to include a CELL/RSX in every PS4. It's just not going to happen; PS4 will be cost reduced up the ass from day one IMHO.

I am fine with no BC. All I need to play PS3 games once the PS4 rolls out is a 15 dollar HDMI switcher anyway.
I would rather that they provide the best hardware that they can given the cost contraints, rather than be constantly shackled by considerations for now ancient hardware.

[H_Prestige]

People forgot that PS2 have PSX chip for BC, Old 60GB PS3 have PS2 chips for BC. There is no way they will let it software BC only for free everyone (too much work, very very large QA testers (MS close it down)). If they want to PS3 game on PS4, they will sell it classic digital, or remaster. The big ? is will they going to include PS3 chips in the next system or go for digital like PS2 classic from PSN atm.

I thought the ps2 slim got rid of the psx chip? And the ps1/ps2 classics run through pure software emulation.

[onQ123]

http://pastebin.com/5giPQP2r

Second dev kit uses APU design AMD A8-3870k redesigned to have HD 6850 on board. And yes SI rumors are true. APU is paired with the HD Radeon HD 7900.

I want to believe!

but it was posted by a guest

[RoboPlato]

http://pastebin.com/5giPQP2r I want to believe! but it was posted by a guest

A 7900 series? LOL
I can see the APU being boosted a bit from the original specs and the main GPU maybe being up to a 7850 but above that is way too power hungry and hot for a console.

[H_Prestige]

http://pastebin.com/5giPQP2r I want to believe! but it was posted by a guest

Well that's strange. I didn't think every ps4 would come with a hdd. That's going to put a limit on cost cutting, just like it did with ps3. I thought sony would have learned.

4 layer bluray sounds good though. Would that be 100GB disc? That could hold some ridiculously high quality FMV.

[Glorified G]

http://pastebin.com/5giPQP2r I want to believe! but it was posted by a guest

Since it was posted by a guest, it's bullshit. But goddamn. That sounds like a fucking beast, especially if it's in an early dev kit. If it launches late 2013, a console that powerful is not crazy at all.

[Globox_82]

Since it was posted by a guest, it's bullshit. But goddamn. That sounds like a fucking beast, especially if it's in an early dev kit. If it launches late 2013, a console that powerful is not crazy at all.

wasn't every pastebin rumor posted by a guest? Don't buy it for one second. Anyone could have written it....

[onQ123]

Since it was posted by a guest, it's bullshit. But goddamn. That sounds like a fucking beast, especially if it's in an early dev kit. If it launches late 2013, a console that powerful is not crazy at all.

yep & if it was that powerful I would gladly hand over $599 again

[onQ123]

A 7900 series? LOL I can see the APU being boosted a bit from the original specs and the main GPU maybe being up to a 7850 but above that is way too power hungry and hot for a console.

if the main GPU is too Power Hungry it makes even more sense to have the APU.


because every game is not going to need the powerful GPU.

[cilonen]

People expecting 4K don't really understand how the consumer electronics industry works.

You can already buy 4K televisions...

http://www.whathifi.com/review/toshiba-55zl2

Full 1080P TV's were only a shade cheaper than that beast when the current gen launched.

The consumer electronics industry wants you to buy it's product and will increase resolution to sell it to you as a feature. The content industry will follow.

[Globox_82]

if the main GPU is too Power Hungry it makes even more sense to have the APU. because every game is not going to need the powerful GPU.

if these are dev kits/target specs what GPU is in there doesn't matter. Because something else might end up in the console. Maybe it's just a test or whatever(if true). So heat talk is irrelevant when we have no idea what is going to end in next gen consoles.

[sTeLioSco]

ps4 will probably "support" 4k but noone will use it for typical nextgen 3d games

i can see it being true,but only for "show"
some videos,some 2d games......

no need discussing it honestly.

[sTeLioSco]

if these are dev kits/target specs what GPU is in there doesn't matter. Because something else might end up in the console. Maybe it's just a test or whatever(if true). So heat talk is irrelevant when we have no idea what is going to end in next gen consoles.

IF that specs are true AND if both xbox/ps have 4gb ram
AND if the wii u is somewhat similar in power with current gen,when next ps/xbox are released the situation will be the same for the wii regarding 3rd party support.....

[Globox_82]

IF that specs are true AND if the bothx xbox/ps have 4gb ram AND if the wii u is somewhat similar in power with current gen,when next ps/xbox are released the situation will be the same for the wii regarding 3rd party support.....

No s..t. I know what you mean. Well Nintendo said they are not about specs. Shame because 3rd party is

[Maxrunner]

yep & if it was that powerful I would gladly hand over $599 again

you're part of the problem it seems.... 600€ for a console really??now i understand why epic thinks ipad will reign if gamers pay that price for a freaking console...

[Dorfdad]

No it isn't. Only small % cares about BC and even half of those that think that they care won't ever again touch PS3 games once PS4 games start hitting. The only BC that matter is PSN content since it's digital and digital games won't see major leap since they are not the selling point. Even then I doubt many will go back and reply anything. It's like free PS1 classics you get if you are PSn+ member. You think you care, but you don't really care.

I care I buy alot of my games from PSN full retail games off PSN. So Now when PS4 comes out next year I will not be able to play them on the PS4? Big turn off. I don't want multiple systems in my family room.

PS4 has to have this. Especially since the PS3 is in mid stream so to speak. If they dont allow it I don't see people buying a PS4 for 2-3 years giving the 720 a much larger install base.

I also think the next XBOX will be a beast. I think they have learned so much and next gen will be theirs... and I am a PS3 fan...

[onQ123]

if the rumors from Xbox World about the next Xbox CPU having 16 cores & the devs expecting the PS4 to be even more powerful is true, then I'm forced to believe that what the guy posted about the PS4 having a AMD A8-3870k APU with a HD 6850 on board & a HD Radeon HD 7900 is closer to the truth than what was posted before.


http://pastebin.com/5giPQP2r

[OldJadedGamer]

Well that's strange. I didn't think every ps4 would come with a hdd. That's going to put a limit on cost cutting, just like it did with ps3. I thought sony would have learned.

I'm interested to see if they follow the memory card format like the Vita where it doesn't come with the unit yet is required.

[RoboPlato]

I'm interested to see if they follow the memory card format like the Vita where it doesn't come with the unit yet is required.

God, I hope not. I have a feeling that they can't because of DLC sizes and full downloadable games. I really hope they let us swap out HDDs again. I'm planning on switching to a Hybrid SSD soon in my PS3 and Digital Foundry's benchmarks for it are great. If PS4 allows me to do installs on all games and have that HDD in it it would be awesome.

[H_Prestige]

God, I hope not. I have a feeling that they can't because of DLC sizes and full downloadable games. I really hope they let us swap out HDDs again. I'm planning on switching to a Hybrid SSD soon in my PS3 and Digital Foundry's benchmarks for it are great. If PS4 allows me to do installs on all games and have that HDD in it it would be awesome.

That's a good point. Vita was coming off the PSP which also didn't have built in storage.

[phosphor112]

if the rumors from Xbox World about the next Xbox CPU having 16 cores & the devs expecting the PS4 to be even more powerful is true, then I'm forced to believe that what the guy posted about the PS4 having a AMD A8-3870k APU with a HD 6850 on board & a HD Radeon HD 7900 is closer to the truth than what was posted before. http://pastebin.com/5giPQP2r

That sounds crazy... but possible. If this were the case, something like a Cell would be more plausible for PS4.

A lot of course, high parallel processing? It would keep power and heat down while still (according to a few rumors) still be more powerful than the xbox3.

[Always-honest]

No it isn't. Only small % cares about BC and even half of those that think that they care won't ever again touch PS3 games once PS4 games start hitting. The only BC that matter is PSN content since it's digital and digital games won't see major leap since they are not the selling point. Even then I doubt many will go back and reply anything. It's like free PS1 classics you get if you are PSn+ member. You think you care, but you don't really care.

i agree. I rather see them focus on the next gen gaming instead of wastig monay and recources on BC.

Just keep your old machine and have a nice oldschool weekend one fine day.
Or stream the games in a couple of years.

[theBishop]

I wonder if we'll see Sony port more games to PC this generation. The architecture is so much closer than any previous Playstation hardware.

[Snakeyes]

Screw 4K, I'll wait for UHD and its IMAX level of detail.

[Style Fox]

Forget 4K just give us games in full 1080p that run at 60fps. Some of the biggest games this generation didn't even run at 720p.

[H_Prestige]

I wonder if we'll see Sony port more games to PC this generation. The architecture is so much closer than any previous Playstation hardware.

What do you mean by more? SCE haven't ported a single game to PC and that's not going to change just because they switch to x86. You're not going to see Uncharted Vita ported to iPad just because they're similar.

[iceatcs]

I thought the ps2 slim got rid of the psx chip? And the ps1/ps2 classics run through pure software emulation.

Well. I remember some PSX titles not working on specific model serial number. I assume because of changing PSX chip.
was the OS different on PS2 silm from plat PS2?