[i-Lo]

Do you consider PS2 to Xbox power gap being large? From what I've seen posted by some knowledgeable people in here that seems like the largest the gap could be.

In this day and age of programmable shaders, different types of AA, complex lighting models, tessellation, etc, a difference of that magnitude with today's tech would indeed be substantial (especially in the long run). I don't think there will that large of a gap for the aforementioned reasons. But for me it's just reasonable guess work, nothing more.

I am hearing hints of 7850 + discrete 7870 levels of performance out of the PS4. I wonder if ms can establish noticeable advantage in hardware if that's the case.

Which grape vine have you been putting your ears against?

[bigtroyjon]

If Microsoft has decided to go really powerful, it will be because of the games in 2020, not the games in 2014. The economics will all be about the long term.

[makingmusic476]

In this day and age of programmable shaders, different types of AA, complex lighting models, tessellation, etc, a difference of that magnitude with today's tech would indeed be substantial (especially in the long run). I don't think there will that large of a gap for the aforementioned reasons. But for me it's just reasonable guess work, nothing more. Which grape vine have you been putting your ears against?

It may be substantial in terms of quantifiable power, but when actually looking at the game?

Outside of framerate, I can't see there being that noticeable of a difference even with that type of power gap. Like, you mention "different types of AA", and this gen a sub-HD game having or not having AA was a noticeable difference. Next gen we'll probably have 1080p games with at least 2xAA, and at that point I don't think the type of AA will have a noticeable impact for the end user.

[magash]

If Microsoft has decided to go really powerful, it will be because of the games in 2020, not the games in 2014. The economics will all be about the long term.

Then that's a very stupid business decision.

[Aselith]

I am hearing hints of 7850 + discrete 7870 levels of performance out of the PS4. I wonder if ms can establish noticeable advantage in hardware if that's the case.

Did you say that to your friend and then he repeated it back to you incredulously and started laughing and that's how you're "hearing" it?

[Proelite]

Did you say that to your friend and then he repeated it back to you incredulously and started laughing and that's how you're "hearing" it?

It was from a PM on another forum but I don't believe it. It's far more powerful than the rumored specs released by IGN. It's probably bull now that I think about it.

[Triple U]

Does a little extra power matter that much to you? You gotta go where the games you want are, whichever platform that may be. :P

It'll matter for which I buy first. Like this gen I bought the 360 first even though I was mostly a ps2 guy.

[Death Dealer]

It was from a PM on another forum but I don't believe it. It's far more powerful than the rumored specs released by IGN. It's probably bull now that I think about it.

Someone on B3D said a customized laptop based GPU with around 180 square mm and 75 watts of power could have 2 TFLOPS performance in a next gen console. Combine that with a Kaveri APU and you have a beast !

[Proelite]

Snip.

Would you get some Durango information too? Any tidbits would be much more appreciated.

If he didn't tell you to remain discrete, then don't worry about it.

[sweetvar26]

MS is going AMD for CPU too?

Looks like it, from my knowledge.

[jeff_rigby]

Unlikely, as full production isn't expected until some time in 2014, and even then, we're talking low volume high end products for another couple of years. 3D stacking isn't expected to hit consumer devices for another four or five years.

Could you cite because, while I've read that before I dismissed it as it does not make sense. Having information filtered through News types can slant what we understand.

3D wafer stacking is a third phase of 3D stacking that has economic benefits only if certain conditions are met; the first is high volume. From my cite:

If there is enough demand for TSVs, GlobalFoundries also will bring up the technology in its Fab 1 in Dresden. A fab in Singapore will be used for additional capacity for 2.5-D chips using silicon interposers if demand for the process exceeds what the New York fab can handle. GlobalFoundries is also exploring use of TSVs for MEMS and other products.

This would seem to indicate as does IBM ramping up in the same time frame as part of the consortium that includes Global Foundries, IBM Foundries and Samsung Foundries that there is great demand and high volume expected.

As to volume, Game console chip sets will have massive volume.... 20 million plus. 3D stacking efficiencies are required for handhelds and in the past a premium paid for those efficiencies. 3D wafer stacking if volume is high enough can reduce handheld 3D stacked costs. Next generation game consoles require those same efficiencies to fit into a next generation power (both performance and energy/heat generated) envelope. The most economical method of providing those efficiencies is with 3D wafer stacking. (Sony CTO confirmed TSVs and stacking.)

Again from the cite:

"high-end graphics and CPUs will use it to link to DRAMs and memory stacks

A game console in the past used a high end CPU and GPU, for the Xbox360 and PS3 the CPU and GPU exceeded in different ways what was available on PCs. I and others expect the same this time. AMD has a roadmap for APUs with the next iteration a common memory pool with CPU and GPU on the same silicon. If they add memory, even if only the rumored 80meg eDRAM for the Durango, and use that instead of L3 or L2 cache a massive increase in performance is possible with no increase in power needed.

that don't make much sense because Jaguar is the low power CPU cores why would they replace the streamroller cores of the APU with Jaguar cores? & steamroller is not 32nm it's 28nm http://hothardware.com/News/AMDs-Fin...s-Future-SoCs/

Reading the article you provided <grin> at the very end of the article <grin> gives us more to think about:

In desktop, the aging Piledriver will anchor the high-end until the end of the year. AMD's presentations from last year's Fusion summit indicate that the company's long-term goal is to integrate CPU and GPU until the graphics core essentially replaces the CPU's floating point units. It's possible that holding off on a new higher-end CPU core is AMD's way of delaying until a new GPU is ready to take on that role in the highest end of the market. Such a chip would conceivably debut in 2014, beyond the scope of these presentations.

The aging Piledriver will anchor the high-end until the end of the year then Jaguar, which does not have a floating point unit which is not needed in game consoles but is the more advanced CPU and in 2014 AMD SOC.

"Such a chip would conceivably debut in 2014, beyond the scope of these presentations." So a SOC @ 28nm featuring a Jaguar CPU core and a new GPU that is fast enough to setup for time critical Floating point calculation that are normally handled by a dedicated FPU in a CPU as well as OpenCL.....combined with a second GPU (Graphics Core Next Southern Islands)....possible for the PS4?

Changing the description of the CPU-GPU package from APU to SOC even though it's even more of a APU...does that imply something like more than CPU and GPU are in the package? In the chart below, the center is what is rumored for PS4, two GPUs one in the APU with I/O and support chips in the APU and on the right a SOC instead of APU which would contain everything.

What does the term MODULAR SOC mean, 3D wafer = modular? Modular SOC: "system-on-a-chip (SOC) design using reusable intellectual property (IP) cores has become a state-of-the-art implementation paradigm that has triggered novel business models based on IP core providers and system integrators. The IP cores are pre-designed and pre-verified by the core providers, how-ever SOC composition is the system integrators’ duty, who is also in charge of verification and manufacturing testing of the entire SOC, including the IP-protected internal cores.

So Modular SOC might be AMD IP Property (CPU, GPU, Support Chips) provided as modules (possibly 3D wafers with interconnect standards or just silicon for use with interposers) allowing for easier SOC modular construction. If Jaguar CPU we are very into the far right SOC future AMD designs.

“Bulldozer NG,” in this case, is Piledriver. Given that the company has canceled its original plan to move to a new platform and 10/20-core architecture in 2013, it’s possible that AMD’s server platforms will move directly from the configuration on the far left to the far right, SoC-style implementation. Historically, AMD’s desktop and server CPUs have been tightly linked as far as their CPU architectures are concerned — the fact that we don’t see third-generation CPU core anywhere in 2013 could mean that the company will move to a unified SoC for servers and high-end desktop in 2014.

The sweetvar26 post has, I think, issues;
1) "They moved on to TSMC 28nm solution", TSMC is not Global Foundries and AMD letting their most advanced designs be made outside of the US, Outside of Global Foundries or IBM and to Taiwan's TSMC does not seem like good business. Also while TSMC is also to have 3D wafer stacking they are 100% in house with their own standards that do not match the Consortium of Global Foundries, IBM and Samsung.
2) If Jaguar is a 2014 design it's probably planned to be 20nm not 28nm (not as much of an issue but Global Foundries is gearing up for 28nm and 20nm 3D wafer stacking) and to utilize the most economical and HSA efficient SOC manufacturing processes which probably include 3D wafer stacking.
"So looks like there are 2 Jaguar CPC's (Core plus cache) with 4P/2MB. Clocked at 1.6Ghz(~1.25V)"
1) 1.25V is very high for a chip that's supposed to be efficient, lots of factors here but it seems high and even .01 volts difference is more efficient and I've read voltages are closer to 1.0V now with 3D gate planned for 14nm down to .6V.
2) 1.6 Ghz for the CPU sounds low for a desktop or game console but about right for a high end GPU so there might be confusion here.

The sweetvar26 post could be a troll but he did his homework and brought to our attention a possible.

[onQ123]

The sweetvar26 post could be a troll but he did his homework and brought to our attention a possible.

it seems pretty genuine I think they might have mixed up Steamroller with Pile driver though.


AMD Expects to Start Small-Volume Production of 28nm APUs Late This Year.

Advanced Micro Devices said on Thursday that it expects to begin small-volume production of its future accelerated processing units using 28nm process technology late this year. The company did not specify which of its next-gen APUs will go to manufacturing first and at which of contract makers of semiconductors, but what is clear is that the new APUs will be taped out in 2012. "We will start small-volume manufacturing ramp of [28nm APUs] in the second half [of the year], so we can get ready for the launch in 2013," said Thomas Seiffert, chief financial officer of AMD, during a conversation with analysts. AMD readies at least three accelerated processing units for launch in 2013. The highest-performing one is code-named Kaveri, which will have Steamroller-class up to four x86 cores along with GCN-architecture graphics engine. For low-cost/low-power systems AMD is developing code-named Kabini APU, which features two or four Jaguar c86 cores as well as GCN graphics processing engine. For tablets and similar ultra low power applications, AMD preps APU known as Temash, which will also use Jaguar x86 core(s) and low-power graphics adapter. All three Fusion accelerated processing units are set to be made using 28nm process technology, but AMD does not disclose which chips will be made by Globalfoundries and which by Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company. It is possible that some APUs will come from both foundries to ensure maximum volumes. Globalfoundries plans to initiate volume production of chips using 28nm process tech with HKMG technology in December, 2011, at its Fab 8 in New York, USA. TSMC is already making 28nm/HKMG chips, but the volumes are not very large, based on market rumours.

the only way Jaguar makes sense is if the GPU in the APU is mostly there to help with the CPU work.

[gaming_noob]

Even though I like Sonys exclusives a bit better...I suppose that if MS was to put out the stronger box I would switch over. That being said Gears and Halo can fuck off next gen.

Suit yourself. You'll most likely be paying for online play with ads on the next Xbox :(

[Silly.Mikey]

please don't be 599 :|

I dont see how it wont be.

[Proelite]

I dont see how it wont be.

They want to make a $400 profit on each console?

[Silly.Mikey]

They want to make a $400 profit on each console?

Ps3 was that when it came out, didnt make much profit on them even at that price.

[cartman414]

AMD's APUs always make me think of this:

[Proelite]

Ps3 was that when it came out, didnt make much profit on them even at that price.

If they sell at $599 with the specs discussed in this thread, they'll make at least $299 in profits on each console sold.

[Silly.Mikey]

If they sell at $599 with the specs discussed in this thread, they'll make at least $299 in profits on each console sold.

How much profit was the Wii making at launch?

[Proelite]

How much profit was the Wii making at launch?

A couple of dollars on each Wii sold. Sony lost several hundred per PS3 at launch, as did MS on the 360.

These rumored APU setups for PS4 are going to be dirt cheap, unless they're packing in 3D Headset with every system, they'll make a killing at $599.

[Silly.Mikey]

A couple of dollars on each Wii sold. Sony lost several hundred per PS3 at launch, as did MS on the 360. These rumored APU setups for PS4 are going to be dirt cheap, unless they're packing in 3D Headset with every system, they'll make a killing at $599.

299$ profit might be accessive, but i wouldnt be surprised if they still slightly overcharged for it just because they can. Kinda like Gas prices. They should go down, but they never do. And most casual consumers wont know whats inside anyway.

[Shikoro]

They want to make a $400 profit on each console?

Haha, nice one. :D And I completely agree.

The specs are unacceptable even when looking at the situation Sony is in.
They better beef it up or many will be disappointed...

[bgassassin]

Looks like it, from my knowledge.

I've heard this as well, though I'm still looking for more concrete info.

[spwolf]

A couple of dollars on each Wii sold. Sony lost several hundred per PS3 at launch, as did MS on the 360. These rumored APU setups for PS4 are going to be dirt cheap, unless they're packing in 3D Headset with every system, they'll make a killing at $599.

they might even sell it for $999 and make billions.

[RoboPlato]

I am hearing hints of 7850 + discrete 7870 levels of performance out of the PS4. I wonder if ms can establish noticeable advantage in hardware if that's the case.

There's no way that'll happen. Discrete 7850+APU with a 7600-series equivalent is the highest I think we might see and even that's a longshot.

[bgassassin]

And why exactly can't you put them up here? You didn't sign an NDA, it's not your job at stake. This sounds like an elaborate troll.

But his friend most likely is under one and his job would be at stake.

[James Sawyer Ford]

But his friend most likely is under one and his job would be at stake.

Only if they could somehow source the PDF to his friend.

[bgassassin]

Only if they could somehow source the PDF to his friend.

Putting that to the test isn't worth it. I'm not trying to convince you to believe him, just saying that he shouldn't need or have to provide something like that as proof to make you or any of us to believe him. Just take the information as it is and decide whether or not you want to believe it.

[James Sawyer Ford]

Putting that to the test isn't worth it. I'm not trying to convince you to believe him, just saying that he shouldn't need or have to provide something like that as proof to make you or any of us to believe him. Just take the information as it is and decide whether or not you want to believe it.

At the same time, it's shitty to have people post as though they're insiders when they don't have any evidence to back it up.

[McHuj]

Only if they could somehow source the PDF to his friend.

He probably shouldn't,t have mentioned what projects his friend worked on, where he lives, and to what he moved to now. Other than that, at this point, there are probably hundreds of people working on this stuff and have seen the specs so it would be pretty hard to trace this to anyone.

[bgassassin]

At the same time, it's shitty to have people post as though they're insiders when they don't have any evidence to back it up.

That's why you take it with a grain of salt. I've posted things before and just leave it up to others to accept it or not.

[squidyj]

Putting that to the test isn't worth it. I'm not trying to convince you to believe him, just saying that he shouldn't need or have to provide something like that as proof to make you or any of us to believe him. Just take the information as it is and decide whether or not you want to believe it.

Fox News, we report, you decide.

Yeah... right.

[bgassassin]

Fox News, we report, you decide. Yeah... right.

Bad comparison. Fox News clearly has leanings to one side. Sweetvar has not shown anything like that.

[bgassassin]

Why didn't you complain when IGN built a 4850 PC to represent the Wii U?

How in the world did I miss this post?

I complained heavily about it. You sure don't pay attention.

[MadOdorMachine]

How in the world did I miss this post? I complained heavily about it. You sure don't pay attention.

I can vouch for this.

[bgassassin]

I can vouch for this.

Haha. You were the one I was thinking of as I made that post.

[Dabanton]

At the same time, it's shitty to have people post as though they're insiders when they don't have any evidence to back it up.

Dude what do you think this entire thread is?

Anything i read in here i take with a larggggeeee sprinkle of salt.

[dragonelite]

Only if they could somehow source the PDF to his friend.

Ooh believe me they can trace that stuff down.

[StevieP]

MS is going AMD for CPU too?

I heard that late last year. What I did not hear was Jaguar being involved in one of these systems. Yech!

Thank you for the info, sweetvar26 :)

How much profit was the Wii making at launch?

Beaten to the punch - it was a few bucks per console

Ooh believe me they can trace that stuff down.

Yep. If there is any way to implicate sweetvar26's friend with any kind of information (even innocent code names he posted) he will lose his job. AMD is VERY tight and the NDAs with all 3 consoles have been restrictive as hell to say the least, which is why there have been a lot less leaks this go around. Be safe, sweetvar26.

[i-Lo]

I just wonder how far from antiquated hardware can the next gen be before being at risk by being usurped by mobile devices as being the best platform for gaming.

With these recent spec rumours, I wonder how long PS4 would remain relevant. I am beginning to see why Epic persisted on pushing the HW to retard the inevitable progress of obsolescence in the face of mobile competitors (at least it looks like MS listened). Looks like console makers are caught between rock (retail price) and a hard place (mobile competitors).

Eh, I hope my cynicism is lessened by the final product.

[onQ123]

Maybe Sony is taking the 'can't beat'em join'em approach.



& will be refreshing the console every few years with new features to keep the product fresh & devs can still make the same games but they scale up for the newer models but still play on the older models, just like the iOS games.


DesignCon Keynote Speaker AMDs Joe Macri on Heterogeneous Computing

watch this video about HSA & when the guy talk about making software for the virtualizer instead of making software for the hardware & how it can scale up from a cellphone all the way up to a super computer.

so that would mean that if sony jump on this now & move away from the way they are doing things now devs can make games that will work on the PS4 , Sony Tablets , Sony Phones & Laptops in the future & they can just keep making new products knowing that the software is already there.



the HSA video go right along with the Sony One future.



if fact the PS4 should be called 'PlayStation One' or just PlayStation S1 , PlayStation S2 , PlayStation S3 & so on

[i-Lo]

I don't think they'll be fragmenting the market like that. At least the iterations will have to be quite a few years apart. Doing it annually will make it all the more irrelevant because of PC.

Guess I'll skip on Sony's console for the next gen after all.

[Averon]

So the PS4 is two PS3s duct taped together after all?

[i-Lo]

So the PS4 is two PS3s duct taped together after all?

More like 1 PS4 = 1 PS3 + 1.5 PSV

/jk speculation... or is it...

[Ashes1396]

So the PS4 is two PS3s duct taped together after all?

according to the rumours, no. Cell work has supposedly been abandoned.

[onQ123]

I don't think they'll be fragmenting the market like that. At least the iterations will have to be quite a few years apart. Doing it annually will make it all the more irrelevant because of PC. Guess I'll skip on Sony's console for the next gen after all.

the world has changed a lot & looking at today's market this seems like the best thing to do.



people will buy new hardware if the software they already own will play on it & they will buy software knowing that it's still going to be useful on the new hardware they will be buying in the next few years. & people like the newest things & having software that's running on the HSA virtualizer means that they can refresh the New Console with the newer AMD chips when AMD refresh & don't have to stick to making older chips.

[i-Lo]

the world has changed a lot & looking at today's market this seems like the best thing to do. people will buy new hardware if the software they already own will play on it & they will buy software knowing that it's still going to be useful on the new hardware they will be buying in the next few years. & people like the newest things & having software that's running on the HSA virtualizer means that they can refresh the New Console with the newer AMD chips when AMD refresh & don't have to stick to making older chips.

Like I said, I don't see that happening because it is antithetical to the philosophy of a gaming console. Newer attachments is a more likely scenario but a hardware refresh would be counter productive for both sales and software development.

At the end of the day not many consumers would want to spend money on a console when they know if they wait just a little while longer they'd get something better. From the devs perspective it's a matter of resource management meaning they'd never take advantage of the latest hardware. It becomes something akin to open system which as aforementioned is against the very nature of gaming console.

Inevitably and finally, it comes down to what is being packed both internally and externally pertaining to hardware.

[Ashes1396]

The sweetvar26 post has, I think, issues; 1) "They moved on to TSMC 28nm solution", TSMC is not Global Foundries and AMD letting their most advanced designs be made outside of the US, Outside of Global Foundries or IBM and to Taiwan's TSMC does not seem like good business. Also while TSMC is also to have 3D wafer stacking they are 100% in house with their own standards that do not match the Consortium of Global Foundries, IBM and Samsung. 2) If Jaguar is a 2014 design it's probably planned to be 20nm not 28nm (not as much of an issue but Global Foundries is gearing up for 28nm and 20nm 3D wafer stacking) and to utilize the most economical and HSA efficient SOC manufacturing processes which probably include 3D wafer stacking. "So looks like there are 2 Jaguar CPC's (Core plus cache) with 4P/2MB. Clocked at 1.6Ghz(~1.25V)" 1) 1.25V is very high for a chip that's supposed to be efficient, lots of factors here but it seems high and even .01 volts difference is more efficient and I've read voltages are closer to 1.0V now with 3D gate planned for 14nm down to .6V. 2) 1.6 Ghz for the CPU sounds low for a desktop or game console but about right for a high end GPU so there might be confusion here.

re: underlined part: Not sure its 3d related, just about meeting the demand - the popularity of fusion chips.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-tur...s.60709.0.html

[onQ123]

Like I said, I don't see that happening because it is antithetical to the philosophy of a gaming console. Newer attachments is a more likely scenario but a hardware refresh would be counter productive for both sales and software development. At the end of the day not many consumers would want to spend money on a console when they know if they wait just a little while longer they'd get something better. From the devs perspective it's a matter of resource management meaning they'd never take advantage of the latest hardware. It becomes something akin to open system which as aforementioned is against the very nature of gaming console. Inevitably and finally, it comes down to what is being packed both internally and externally pertaining to hardware.

Hardware & Software sells went up when the PlayStation Slim & Xbox 360S came out & they didn't add anything to the software visually. so having a business model where they can add new hardware & features every few years without disrupting the software developers or raising the price to make the console can only be a good thing.

[Ashes1396]

Hardware & Software sells went up when the PlayStation Slim & Xbox 360S came out & they didn't add anything to the software visually. so having a business model where they can add new hardware & features every few years without disrupting the software developers or raising the price to make the console can only be a good thing.

The console market has still got a baseline hardware, which means theoretically, that you will get the maximum benefit on the same piece of kit 5 to 7 years down the line. This is of course because developers work on the same hardware 5 years down the line as they did on day 1. Optional extras are just that: Optional extras.

Now, I think I see where you are coming from. You are looking at the apple market, and the android market, and seem to imply that the same can happen here in the console market. Perhaps it might, If I read you correctly.

But to me, those two markets are more akin to pc/mac model markets, unsurprisingly, seeing who is pushing them, namely, Apple & Google.

Now we can look at where that will lead in a few years time in terms of gaming, because we've been through this cycle on pcs:

*fragmentation
*And with fragmentation comes complexity
*And with this comes the question of settings, what settings do my games play best on?

You can head that way of course, and there are solutions in the works, like what Nvidia announced just a few hours ago, but there is some comfort in having developers work away at closed architecture, with the hardware vendor working on bringing costs down as we head into year 3,4,5,6, and 7.