[bgassassin]

Well that's also true but I tend to think of the Jaguar as the first CPU designed with a different memory model and 2 meg cache for fabric computing. That's unconfirmed at this time and I can't find any information to determine what the changes are, going from Bobcat to Jaguar.

Me personally I wouldn't read much into the memory model of it. With the likelihood of Sony using a UMA and that being GDDR5, the Jaguar's memory controller may not be relevant since it's most like designed for DDRx memory.

[jeff_rigby]

Me personally I wouldn't read much into the memory model of it. With the likelihood of Sony using a UMA and that being GDDR5, the Jaguar's memory controller may not be relevant since it's most like designed for DDRx memory.

Won't a system with multiple CPUs and Unified Memory Addressing need some way to schedule memory access (reason for fabric model) and GDDR memory logic unusable? Possible that the PS4 memory inside the the SOC is fabric model with a second memory pool outside the SOC and used by both the SOC and GCN GPU. New wrinkle?

[deadlast]

I did a quick search and found that IBM has been planning to abandon Cell since 2010.
The article also speaks to Sony going with AMD's fusion.
There will probably not be a Cell/RSX single chip. So there will probably never be an add-on that would support BC in the PS4. BC might only be achieved through software.

[StevieP]

BC might only be achieved through software.

Yeah, good luck with that lol

[evil solrac v3.0]

I did a quick search and found that IBM has been planning to abandon Cell since 2010. The article also speaks to Sony going with AMD's fusion. There will probably not be a Cell/RSX single chip. So there will probably never be an add-on that would support BC in the PS4. BC might only be achieved through software.

I don't think you want that.

[jeff_rigby]

PS4 hardware issues - won't arrive in 2013?
Last Updated: 30th Apr 2012

According to an unnamed source, we were informed that someone from Sony UK mentioned the PS4 was undergoing hardware restructuring meaning it's likely it won't hit retail shelves in 2013 as many are expecting. However, the source didn't go into any details regarding the possible later than expected release or whether it would be a tactical move more than anything sinister. What has been argued is Sony will want to release in much closer proximity to the next Xbox than before, but If Sony decide to release some months after the speculated Nov/Dec 2013 for Xbox next, their sales pitch could revolve around being more powerful, or with more up to date hardware.

Put this rumor together with Jaguar CPU and Sony could be implementing 2014 AMD Tech (SOC & Fabric computing).

[Gemüsepizza]

Wait, the source said Sony is restructuring the PS4 hardware, and this website says this means there won't be a PS4 in 2013? I don't think this is necessarily the case. I heavily doubt this will be a massive restructuring, for example a change of the CPU architecture, more likely something like additional RAM.

[Log4Girlz]

PS4 hardware issues - won't arrive in 2013? Last Updated: 30th Apr 2012 Put this rumor together with Jaguar and Sony could be implementing 2014 AMD Tech (SOC & Fabric computing).

Death sentence. The only way to redeem themselves is to put in Android no matter the cost.

[Ashes1396]

PS4 hardware issues - won't arrive in 2013? Last Updated: 30th Apr 2012 Put this rumor together with Jaguar and Sony could be implementing 2014 AMD Tech (SOC & Fabric computing).

Stacking issues perhaps. And of course there are a lot of beneficial industry movements in 2013/214.

[jeff_rigby]

Death sentence. The only way to redeem themselves is to put in Android no matter the cost.

Already done by AMD

 BlueStacks runs all your favorite Android apps on your Windows PC and syncs apps from your Android phone to your PC  AMD announced investment in BlueStacks as part of AMD Fusion Fund  BlueStacks App Player being optimized for AMD VISION Technology

Stacking issues perhaps. And of course there are a lot of beneficial industry movements in 2013/214.

Also possible. Really so much happening 2013-2014 it could be anything. As others have said, even waiting a few months could make possible a major feature, more speed, cheaper design etc.

First truly HSA arch only in 2014.. June and the AMD developer conference will have more news.

AMD's CTO Mark Papermaster: "" This year we got Graphics Core Next, but next year we'll see a unified address space that both AMD CPUs and GPUs can access (today CPUs and GPUs mostly store separate copies of data in separate memory spaces). In 2014 AMD plans to deliver HSA compatible GPUs that allow for true heterogeneous computing where workloads will run, seamlessly, on both CPUs and GPUs in parallel. The latter is something we've been waiting on for years now but AMD seems committed to delivering it in a major way in just two years.""

Allows efficiencies for a total of 113%: http://www.amdzone.com/phpbb3/viewto...139067#p216589

“Chip manufacturers are now creating processors that have a ‘fused architecture,’ meaning that they include CPUs and GPUs on a single chip. This approach decreases manufacturing costs and makes computers more energy efficient. However, the CPU cores and GPU cores still work almost exclusively on separate functions. They rarely collaborate to execute any given program, so they aren’t as efficient as they could be. That’s the issue we’re trying to resolve,” said Dr. Huiyang Zhou, an associate professor of electrical and computer engineering who co-authored a paper on the research. Central processing units (CPUs) have less computational power than graphics processing units (GPUs) – but are better able to perform more complex tasks and have a number of special-purpose units that are not present on graphics processors. “Our approach is to allow the GPU cores to execute computational functions, and have CPU cores pre-fetch the data the GPUs will need from off-chip main memory. This is more efficient because it allows CPUs and GPUs to do what they are good at. GPUs are good at performing computations. CPUs are good at making decisions and flexible data retrieval,” said Mr. Zhou

This applies to FPGAs as well, the CPU has hardware like branch prediction that GPUs and FPGA do not have. CPUs can make decisions for GP GPUS and other CPUs and pre-fetch data. This is 2014 tech and probably requires changes to the CPU, a reason for Jaguar?


In 2014 they plan to be implementing actual HSA standards which stands for Heterogeneous Systems Architecture.

If AMD's HSA initiative is successful, that's when their SOC strategy would kick in. It would allow them to integrate not just their own technology, like ATI GPUs, but also a selection of third party components into their processors. While technically they could do that already, in theory HSA would make the process smoother and cheaper. What may be the most interesting aspect of this is perhaps even the CPU core could come from outside AMD. While he didn't talk about it in his presentation, Papermaster was asked later whether AMD would consider basing a new design on ARM cores. Based on his earlier description, HSA should make swapping out processor cores relatively simple and straight forward. He told Wired:

2014 designed Fusion SOC with true HSA could include multiple third party "IP" CPUs like Cell SPUs, FPGA, DSP...

The signs indicating that Sony intents to switch to x86 processors and AMD GPUs for its next Playstation generation (2013/2014) are mounting. That Cell is not an option for Sony anymore already became largely clear when Cell partner IBM pulled out. With AMD's HSA concept, Sony could even fit the chip with its own extensions (FPGAs, media processors, DSPs and so on). And also Microsoft is supposed to be highly interested in an extended cooperation with AMD, for its next Xbox generation. August of 2011, IBM unplugged POWER on their high-end Super Computer. The Power 755 was supposed to be at the heart of the petaflops-busting "Blue Waters" super at the University of Illinois, but IBM pulled the plug on that deal last August. POWER 7+ is more than 6 months late, with the press being virtually silent about it. It seems the high-end, mid-range, low-end, desktop, and embedded gaming consoles are all experiencing POWER problems with IBM.

[StevieP]

They will be DSPs, not Cell SPUs.

[Always-honest]

Death sentence. The only way to redeem themselves is to put in Android no matter the cost.

Good launch lineup is more like it.

[jeff_rigby]

They will be DSPs, not Cell SPUs.

You are probably correct, SPUs would not be needed but it's still possible. How about a FPGA? DSPs do not need bandwidth, FPGAs, GPUs and CPUs do need memory bandwidth. DSPs can be in the APU just to reduce MB complexity and to get data from the USB 3.0 that should be in the APU.

Read this thread from page 20, now re-read the March 2 SimiAccurate post. It now sounds to me like he is trying to protect a source as he hits every point but in vague terms; catching EVERY point is not vague.

Yes I know it's recursive speculation based on too few rumors and News articles but the March 2 SimiAcurate post is before the AMD investor meeting or the April 12th 2.5 & 3D stacking PDF I posted.

[tinfoilhatman]

Good launch lineup is more like it.

If Sony launches more than 2-3 months after Microshaft their DOA here in the states.

[Globox_82]

Good launch lineup is more like it.

you mean like the one Vita had?
They can't be late, no matter how good the launch lineup is.

[Clear]

They can't be late, no matter how good the launch lineup is.

Nonsense. Explain Wii's success then.

[onQ123]

If Sony launches more than 2-3 months after Microshaft their DOA here in the states.

you mean like the Wii & PS3 was DOA last time?

you mean like the one Vita had? They can't be late, no matter how good the launch lineup is.

I think this time around it would be better to come out later, I really don't see many people rushing out to by a new console next year unless it's a real game changer like a Apple Console or something really cool that get's everyone talking or a really big game that can't be played on the old consoles.

there has to be a really big buzz over the next year for the 1st Console that comes out or it's going to be a really slow start so that head start won't mean much if the Consoles that's coming out later has the right price & games when it come out & create a bigger buzz.

[Gemüsepizza]

Nonsense. Explain Wii's success then.

Different target group? And it is a fact that the PS3 had a hard time in the beginning, although they recovered incredibly well.

I don't get how people can really think next gen console sales will be slow. People are hungering for new tech, they will sell like hot cakes.

[Clear]

Different target group? And it is a fact that the PS3 had a hard time in the beginning, although they recovered incredibly well.

And we know exactly to whom these new machines are being targetted, in terms of launch titles, online platform, features and services etc.

PS3 suffered because it was outrageously, prohibitively, expensive and had a weak launch line-up.

Are we really going to make the same mistakes we made last gen when anticipating who was going to come out on top?

[onQ123]

Different target group?

who's to say that Sony won't go for a different target group?

And it is a fact that the PS3 had a hard time in the beginning, although they recovered incredibly well.

PS3 had a pretty good 1st year for a $600 Console going up against a new $250 console from Nintendo & a cheaper HD console that already had a year head start into the HD console race.

I don't get how people can really think next gen console sales will be slow. People are hungering for new tech, they will sell like hot cakes.

the new Consoles are really going to need something new to separate them from the PS3,Xbox 360, wii & iOS gaming & a few 'it' games if they want to get the masses to upgrade or pay a higher price for the new hardware over getting the cheaper consoles that's already out that's good enough for most people's gaming needs.

[Harlock]

Release together with xbox durango or die.

[tinfoilhatman]

you mean like the Wii & PS3 was DOA last time?

Really, you don't see the painfully obvious differences this time around?

PS3 had BluRay and HUGE momentum from PS2 and Wii is Nintendo(which a certain group of people will always support) and was kinda a one time casual phenomenon with the motion controls.

Xbox is now pretty much synonymous with Video Games and I don't see that changing anytime soon, Sony has to launch first(or at the same time) and deliver an INCREDIBLE product(and lineup and price) in order to stand head to head with Microsoft this time around.

[Burai]

Sony had a huge amount of goodwill from consumers and developers going into this gen. If it weren't for that, they'd have never recovered from the botched launch.

They don't have that luxury going forward. They need to absolutely knock it out of the park with PS4 from day one.

[deadlast]

I think price is going to be a primary factor over which system has the hottest tech. this is why Sony abandoned cell.

[RoboPlato]

Sony had a huge amount of goodwill from consumers and developers going into this gen. If it weren't for that, they'd have never recovered from the botched launch. They don't have that luxury going forward. They need to absolutely knock it out of the park with PS4 from day one.

I have a feeling they're getting their first parties working on PS4 ASAP so as not to have as dry of a first year as the PS3 did. It seems like ND, SSM, Ready at Dawn, Guerrilla, Sucker Punch, and Media Molecule are all looking forward to new IPs and installments and I doubt they're all aiming for the end of the PS3 next year. I have a feeling that GoW: A is the last big first party game we'll see for the PS3.

[Clear]

Sony had a huge amount of goodwill from consumers and developers going into this gen.

Absolutely meaningless considering Sony never capitalized upon the groundswell of third-party support they had for PS2, partly because they didn't follow MS's lead of buying exclusivity but also because they had to maintain PS2 support for the first couple of years of the PS3's life.

The difference maker was XBL. Period. Because it dovetailed extremely well with the then "new hotness" of online gaming. The real coup-de-grace though was the way this new connected environment was taken up by the enthusiast press, creating a buzz within that community which helped to evangelize the product.

It also needs to be said that Sony didn't do themselves any favours with anyone through their arrogance, not to mention the numerous PR gaffes and debacles that haunted them for years peaking with last years PSN hack, which ironically seems to have marked a turning point in their public image. They appear to have "bottomed-out" so-to-speak, leaving nowhere to go but up.

Long story short, its not just about release-timing. To focus on that is a gross oversimplification of a complex situation. Because if nothing else, what should be taken from this generation is that noone is too big to fail.

[H_Prestige]

From what I remember in 2006, there wasn't that much hype about the ps3 because it was fucking expensive and it wasn't really worth it for most people. I think a lot more people were excited about the wii, and the sales obviously prove that. So I don't understand the idea that Sony had all this momentum going into this gen. They might have if they played their cards right, but they just kind crashed and fumbled their way towards launch. They didn't have any sort of momentum going in.

[Burai]

From what I remember in 2006, there wasn't that much hype about the ps3 because it was fucking expensive and it wasn't really worth it for most people. I think a lot more people were excited about the wii, and the sales obviously prove that. So I don't understand the idea that Sony had all this momentum going into this gen. They might have if they played their cards right, but they just kind crashed and fumbled their way towards launch. They didn't have any sort of momentum going in.

It was the success of PS2 that kept developers on board in spite of the difficulty in programming for PS3. It was the multi platform development model that kept Sony in the game when Microsoft should have steamrolled them.

Had third parties known in advance just how slowly PS3 would have sold, they may not have been so charitable.

[jeff_rigby]

Long story short, its not just about release-timing. To focus on that is a gross oversimplification of a complex situation. Because if nothing else, what should be taken from this generation is that noone is too big to fail.

Lots of good comments in the last few post except for the doom if not launched at the same time as the Xbox.

Look at the features that will be in the AMD APU/SOC as a standard: AMD supplied PDF showing features in APU chipset with MANY future game console related must have features Carefully read all features!!!!!!

Notice infinity view can have 4 1080P screens side by side for a total of 8K by 4K which is what the Sony CTO mentioned as one of the goals <grin>.

This, and Sony's target of no more than 50ms latency even for 8k x 4k resolution at 300fps, clearly points to the need for a highly integrated TSV-based package -

Single Large Surface (SLS) mode is activated when you create an AMD Eyefinity technology display group in the AMD Catalyst™ Control Center. SLS mode combines the resolutions of all the connected displays, and then essentially “tricks” the operating system into believing that there is one display with that large combined resolution.



Will Xbox have the same, only if they go with an AMD APU also which seems likely and means both should launch at the same time. Problem solved!

Only if Sony is waiting for something like a FPGA to include in the APU is there a chance that the PS4 could launch later. It that case the FPGA advantages will show up and should impact sales within the first 2 years.

[guek]

No PS4 in 2013 would be bizarre. The only thing I'm absolutely sure about is that a cost prohibitive console in 2014 is going to tank hard. Maybe they could pull off another PS3 and gain some steam by 2020, but they'd never make back their initial losses.

[onQ123]

Really, you don't see the painfully obvious differences this time around? PS3 had BluRay and HUGE momentum from PS2 and Wii is Nintendo(which a certain group of people will always support) and was kinda a one time casual phenomenon with the motion controls. Xbox is now pretty much synonymous with Video Games and I don't see that changing anytime soon, Sony has to launch first(or at the same time) and deliver an INCREDIBLE product(and lineup and price) in order to stand head to head with Microsoft this time around.

So is Nintendo & PlayStation

Sony don't have to launch 1st , Nintendo is in need of a new console not Sony & MS.


PS3 is doing good right now & it's the same price the Wii was at launch & this is almost 6 years later. they are bringing out games that will appeal to younger gamers now & the price is right for the younger gamers & might even go lower over the next year.

unless WiiU is priced at around $250 - $300 this Christmas is going to be really good for PS3 if the price drop,

you talk like MS is running away with gaming right now while Sony is in the back running out of breath waiting for a tag in.

[test_account]

But that view is very myopic to us. Software sales this generation indicate the complete opposite for the most part. Most of the games that have sold over 20 million do not rely on visuals at all, and that includes Call of Duty - which has looked largely the same (i.e. pretty crap and SubHD, but at 60fps) this entire generation on consoles.

True, i dont mean that graphics is a defining factor in general, but it could boost interest in a game. CoD sold a lot more on PS3/Xbox 360, and i think that this is due to the different hardware capabilities.

[i-Lo]

Since when did Sony reveal their launch date? It's just bizarre to see people spouting nonsense based on self made assumptions and failing them would apparently lead to the death of the console. Calling it retarded would be an understatement.

Anyway, Jeff_Rigby, for a lay person such as myself, what does the new piece of information mean in context to potential development of PS4 (technical innards)?

[Kazuma Kiryu]

Really, you don't see the painfully obvious differences this time around? PS3 had BluRay and HUGE momentum from PS2 and Wii is Nintendo(which a certain group of people will always support) and was kinda a one time casual phenomenon with the motion controls. Xbox is now pretty much synonymous with Video Games and I don't see that changing anytime soon, Sony has to launch first(or at the same time) and deliver an INCREDIBLE product(and lineup and price) in order to stand head to head with Microsoft this time around.

they're not standing head to head with ms now? sony launched a year late yet has pretty much the same install base? i'd argue that worldwide xbox still isn't as big as nintendo or playstation. unless you're only talking about the us market, which i can see the point of releasing before or at the same time with ms's next console.

[Averon]

Making proclamations years in advance? I would have thought that, in an industry this fickle and unpredictable, this generation have taught us that no one's "safe" and nothing's carved in stone, especially in the early years of a new generation.

[statham]

From what I remember in 2006, there wasn't that much hype about the ps3 because it was fucking expensive and it wasn't really worth it for most people. I think a lot more people were excited about the wii, and the sales obviously prove that. So I don't understand the idea that Sony had all this momentum going into this gen. They might have if they played their cards right, but they just kind crashed and fumbled their way towards launch. They didn't have any sort of momentum going in.

really now, the ps3 could launch with no games and sell 5 million, ps3 will overcome the 360 year headstart within 6 months, xbox 1.5. revisit old threads, the 599 put a small damper on people, but most people believed the ps3 was going to stream roll the 360. and with the Wii, even with the sellouts and not finding the system for sell, everyone believed it was going to be short-lasted and would fade within a year.

[jeff_rigby]

Since when did Sony reveal their launch date? It's just bizarre to see people spouting nonsense based on self made assumptions and failing them would apparently lead to the death of the console. Calling it retarded would be an understatement. Anyway, Jeff_Rigby, for a lay person such as myself, what does the new piece of information mean in context to potential development of PS4 (technical innards)?

Really the Posts from page 20 on are just confirming the SimiAccurate post is possible. Everything fits but it's still speculation with only a vague idea of the final performance.

Best guess; Sony is going to use a 2014 AMD APU model with FULL HSA. The rest is in the SimiAccurate post and the cited Interview with the Sony CTO. There was speculation that the SimiAccurate post was using the information from the Sony CTO interview but it has more information than provided in the interview.

Best articles:

http://mandetech.com/2012/01/10/sony...uta-interview/
http://semiaccurate.com/2012/03/02/s...th-an-amd-gpu/
http://www.gsaglobal.org/events/2012...s/3D_Panel.pdf
AMD supplied PDF showing features in APU chipset with MANY future game console related must have features

[Giant Panda]

Delaying a year just to get a better APU isn't going to get Sony more sales or money. You have to have something special if you come out late, that's why Wii did fine. A little extra hardware power is not special.

I don't believe that Sony would do that.

[bgassassin]

Won't a system with multiple CPUs and Unified Memory Addressing need some way to schedule memory access (reason for fabric model) and GDDR memory logic unusable? Possible that the PS4 memory inside the the SOC is fabric model with a second memory pool outside the SOC and used by both the SOC and GCN GPU. New wrinkle?

I guess my take on it is different. I'm kind of confused where the multiple CPUs come from. My take would be an SoC that has the CPU and GPGPU. The DSPs could either be in the SoC as well or external. Then there would be a MC specifically designed for the UMA which said UMA would be external to the SoC.

[Lord Error]

But that view is very myopic to us. Software sales this generation indicate the complete opposite for the most part. Most of the games that have sold over 20 million do not rely on visuals at all, and that includes Call of Duty - which has looked largely the same (i.e. pretty crap and SubHD, but at 60fps) this entire generation on consoles.

For most people outside of uber tech nerds, COD games are the definition of orgasmatory realistic visuals. I still remember reading report upon report back when CoD4 was being first demoed how it was the most realistic looking war game ever made.

[pottuvoi]

I guess my take on it is different. I'm kind of confused where the multiple CPUs come from. My take would be an SoC that has the CPU and GPGPU. The DSPs could either be in the SoC as well or external. Then there would be a MC specifically designed for the UMA which said UMA would be external to the SoC.

It will be the same/similar to how it is with PPUs and SPUs and more integrated the GPGPU side is to the actual CPU the better. (IE possible to write same cache or scratch pad.)
It certainly would be great if you can read/write to same buffer with the main GPU as well.

[Log4Girlz]

Good launch lineup is more like it.

That's not enough, but yeah they can't go without that either. They need a full suite of great casual friendly games.

[jeff_rigby]

I guess my take on it is different. I'm kind of confused where the multiple CPUs come from. My take would be an SoC that has the CPU and GPGPU. The DSPs could either be in the SoC as well or external. Then there would be a MC specifically designed for the UMA which said UMA would be external to the SoC.

See above http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...postcount=1457

SimiAccurate quote: Lots of stacked memory with TSVs, GSA Memory Conference PDF: 2.5D and 3D stacked chips for game consoles in 2013-2014 with the former using stacked memory on transposer and the latter using ultra wide stacked memory, Sony CTO: 8Kx4K video for games and multiple CPUs including DSP and programmable logic array (FPGA).

Best guess is that there will be no GDDR5 or GDR3 it will all be stacked memory in two pools with ultrawide in the AMD SOC. This only if the guess as to a 2014 design is accurate and if so, trying to use some analog of current PC tech designs won't work. Could you post the GSA Memory PDF on BY3D here. They are also making the same assumptions there.

8Kx4K requires high performance that will not be possible in a console power budget without HSA efficiencies including stacked memory and ultrawide buss 3D stacked memory in the SOC. Multiple CPUs and the full HSA model require the 2014 AMD design.

Stacked memory should be cheaper or eventually cheaper than Gddr5 or XDR2. Future performance memory will be stacked not XDR or GDDR. Game consoles are performance platforms. Arguments against this in the thread were it won't be available by 2013-2014 but the GSA memory conference PDF mentions 3D stacked and ultrawide buss 3D stacked memory used in Game console chips in 2013-2014.

Arguments against more than 4 gigs of memory in new consoles were about packaging which is also an older design problem that won't be seen with stacked memory. Economics is the consideration. Size and heat in the SOC will limit memory and type of memory there. There must be a second pool outside the SOC.

[Hammer24]

If aall this info would be true - what does that mean for PS4 dev kits?

[deadlast]

If aall this info would be true - what does that mean for PS4 dev kits?

From what I have read on Gaf and other articles, dev kits are as close as you can get with current PC hardware prior to the release of full fledged devkits. Any delays in the release of hardware shouldn't affect developers negatively, unless the console maker doesn't give enough time for testing prior to releasing the new console.

[jeff_rigby]

If all this info would be true - what does that mean for PS4 dev kits?

I'd guess they would be slower than the final chipsets (at least for the APU), AMD compiler libraries already support SAIL and HSA features. Only Unreal Engine 4 (CPU bound) which required a NDA would fully use/require the performance in a 2014 design AMD APU. Most launch games will be GPU bound using less CPU.

AMD developer lectures were talking about bundled ray tracing for lighting which would use lots of APU.

Most of the features coming via the AMD APU and GPU are already on upper end AMD chipset PCs but are very power hungry and expensive chips and for both reasons won't be in a game console. 2014 designs can give nearly the same performance cheaper and with less power required; how nearly is the question no one but a developer can answer at this time.

I'd guess that PS4 SDKs released by Sony that support OS features like voice, facial and gesture recognition would use developer hardware but in the final chipset might use a FPGA for some features and as far as developers are concerned the routines would just be faster and more accurate, the SDK which defines how to use the routines remains the same.

[tinfoilhatman]

they're not standing head to head with ms now? sony launched a year late yet has pretty much the same install base? i'd argue that worldwide xbox still isn't as big as nintendo or playstation. unless you're only talking about the us market, which i can see the point of releasing before or at the same time with ms's next console.

I'm talking specifically about here in the states where hardware sales and software tie in's, the Xbox may be able to survive with support from Japan but the PS4 will not be healthy without significant support here in the states.

really now, the ps3 could launch with no games and sell 5 million, ps3 will overcome the 360 year headstart within 6 months, xbox 1.5. revisit old threads, the 599 put a small damper on people, but most people believed the ps3 was going to stream roll the 360. and with the Wii, even with the sellouts and not finding the system for sell, everyone believed it was going to be short-lasted and would fade within a year.

Funny how quickly people choose to forget these things

[H_Prestige]

Saying COD has shitty graphics is pretty stupid. It's not among the best, but it's still way beyond anything on last gen consoles. Same can't be said of a certain other console's games.

[StevieP]

Saying COD has shitty graphics is pretty stupid. It's not among the best, but it's still way beyond anything on last gen consoles. Same can't be said of a certain other console's games.

The point being made was that many of the top selling games of this generation did not rely on graphics. That goes across all consoles, not just the Wii. Even on Wii, the crappy-artstyle NSMB way outsold a decent looker in SMG. What the mass market obviously wants is not power, but compelling software. Sony sounds like they know this now, despite their goof up with the Vita. You and I and most others here know that compelling mass-market-friendly software is the primary driver of hardware - not the other way around.

[H_Prestige]

The point being made was that many of the top selling games of this generation did not rely on graphics. That goes across all consoles, not just the Wii. Even on Wii, the crappy-artstyle NSMB way outsold a decent looker in SMG. What the mass market obviously wants is not power, but compelling software. Sony sounds like they know this now, despite their goof up with the Vita.

You're simplifying this way too much. COD4 would not have gotten anyone's attention in the first place if it looked like a ps2 game. There's a lot of factors involved here and different games appeal to different gamers for different kinds of reasons. A lot more of the COD fan base praises the games' graphics than the NSMB base.

Sony hasn't changed their software strategy at all. They've always pushed graphics since day one, have been doing it like crazy on the ps3, are doing it on the Vita, and I don't know what you've seen to make you think it will be any different on ps4. Just because most of the Wii user base doesn't need to be wowed by graphics doesn't mean it's true for the PS or Xbox crowd. Does it mean you can sell a game purely on graphics? No. But it's always been a big factor, and just because a few Wii games with no graphics emphasis sold over 20 million doesn't mean pushing graphics is pointless. I can guarantee you that visuals impact the sales of the uncharteds, the gran turismos, the halos, the zeldas, and the mario galaxys.