[Tookay]

All current NSMB games look like ass. All future NSMB games will look like ass. It's a feature of the series.

Yeah. The sterile presentation - both art direction and music orchestration - just kill these games for me.

[Aizu_Itsuko]

You assign a higher value to graphical prowess than do many Nintendo fans

That may be the case for H_Prestige (I don't know) but, make no mistake, there are as many people that value graphics among Nintendo fans as in any of the other camps (including people who are not particularly involved with any of the companies).

Fans just change their tune based on the current situation and that's why you end up seeing them contradicting themselves time after time. When they have hardware superiority they use it as bragging rights; when their hardware is inferior they downplay the difference, start calling people graphics whores and go with the art>tech and gameplay>graphics argument.

And they do that with everything, not only hardware.

[maquiladora]

When they have hardware superiority they use it as bragging rights; when their hardware is inferior they downplay the difference, start calling people graphics whores and go with the art>tech and gameplay>graphics argument.

Don't forget the profit whores, bragging about dat $.

[fernoca]

This is a good post, and one reminding me of the quirky, out-there games on Wii. I wouldn't say it had *bad* third-party support, it just lacked some of the important support (FPS and western RPGs, mostly) If Epic is behind WiiU, and their engines run on it, I think the third parties will be there next generation.

Yep. Like everything ,it's just about money.
When EA decided to release Rock Band on Wii? When they saw Activision selling millions of Guitar Hero on Wii (so they went and decided to do a quick port of the PS2 version to make a quick buck).

When Activision noticed that Wii owners could be interested in (more) Call of Duty? When they released World at War on Wii day one (after passing on MW1, because IW wasn't interested in a Wii version) and a few months later the game was at over a million copies (which is why since then, the Wii got COD games same day as the other consoles..except MW2; that's when they released MW1 on Wii)

Capcom on Wii? When the RE4-port did over a million copies. (so they went and made a few more ports, along new games).

And so on. So, If developers released an Unreal Engine 3/4 game on Xbox 720/PS4 and they know they can get some quick money out of a Wii U port; they will. More than just actually hating Nintendo. If publishers has shown one thing, is that they don't mind outsourcing development of Nintendo-platform games (and even PS3 games) in order to release them on time or at some point.

But this illustrates a difference in Nintendo's thinking. Sony famously made a mistake not publishing Demon's Souls in the US. But they did publish 2 White Knight Chronicles games. Microsoft published Blue Dragon and Last Odyssey. Sega brings multiple Valkyria Chronicles games to the US. By all accounts Xenoblade stacks up to these games, an even received better reviews. Any other company would treat them as a 'real' release. But for Nintendo, only a surefire hit seems to be acceptable. And generally that translates to known-franchises.

Kinda agree, but at the same time it is related to the same as Nintendo and your examples show that too: They took a "risk" and if they don't see much back, then they stopped. For example:
-Sony (only) published (the first) White Knight Chronicles in the US
-Because the game didn't performed as well as they expected in sales, they passed on the sequel and the PSP game for US release.
-D3 Publisher released the sequel in the US
-PSP game is still MIA in the US

For Valkyria Chronciles, it was the move to PSP what probably made them not release the third game in the US too; so goes back to them not seeing money out of it and therefore "not taking the risk".

Blue Dragon, Lost Oddysey all one-time deals. Blue Dragon got 2 sequels on Nintendo DS and each were published by different publishers (Ignition and D3). Mystwalker, which made both 360-games last game was for the Wii and since then is currently on iOS games.

Goes back to the same "problem" Nintendo had. When they decide to "take risks" and release stuff like Elite Beat Agents and ended not performing as good as they expected; then they decide to hold back other games too.

Japan got Disaster, Captain Rainbow, Zangeki and many other games that the US never got; so it wasn't like Nintendo was only making Mario-sure fire hit games; but that Nintendo of America decided to only release those games.

Which is why XSeed is releasing The Last Story in the US (similar to Demon's Souls in the US by Atlus and White Knight Chronicles II by D3).

[Reallink]

Your grasp of economics is startlingly loose. Whether or not someone is "ripped off" is entirely subjective. If someone doesn't feel ripped off, then by definition they have not been ripped off. Everyone values things differently. You assign a higher value to graphical prowess than do many Nintendo fans; ergo, where you may feel ripped off because of technological inferiority, others may be genuinely excited about the console for other reasons.

You're speaking in individual terms, the guy you're quoting is speaking in relative terms. In the real world, it doesn't matter where a consumer assigns their value, there always exists a relative/comparative "worth"--regardless of whether they know about it or care about it. While an individual may not feel he's being "ripped off" by a $250 Gamecube, he in fact is relative to the rest of the market.

[To Far Away Times]

Yeah. The sterile presentation - both art direction and music orchestration - just kill these games for me.

I've made no secret of my love for Nintendo games (especially Mario games) on this forum, but the NSMB series is just... not up to the usual Nintendo quality.

[saunderez]

I've made no secret of my love for Nintendo games (especially Mario games) on this forum, but the NSMB series is just... not up to the usual Nintendo quality.

I have to say I was impressed with NSMB on the DS, but the art direction doesn't really hold up when it's not on a handheld. Imagine what Nintendo could do with another Yoshi's Island style game in HD....pity it's never going to happen.

[WrikaWrek]

What happens when studios start using U4?

[Plinko]

What happens when studios start using U4?

The same thing that happened this generation. I expect Wii U to get tepid 3rd party support just like the Wii did.

Although, Rein did say to expect UE3 for a few years into the next generation of consoles, didn't he?

[fernoca]

Yep, Rein did said that. Plus at the moment, it has been hinted that if UE4 is as "easy to scale things" as UE3, the Wii U could technically get UE4 games..even if it's something done on UE3 (hence, some speak of stuff like UE3.9)

[frankie_baby]

What happens when studios start using U4?

We dont know yet that wiiu wont support ue4

[WrikaWrek]

The same thing that happened this generation. I expect Wii U to get tepid 3rd party support just like the Wii did. Although, Rein did say to expect UE3 for a few years into the next generation of consoles, didn't he?

He said first gen games I think.

But then again, like it has been said, nobody said Wii U won't support U4.

[frankie_baby]

Didnt some developer try (and i would assume fail) to port ue3 to the wii

[Medalion]

We dont know yet that wiiu wont support ue4

Of all the rumors we've heard about Wii-U, the power circles somewhere around 360/PS3 power, whether on par, lower, or slightly higher, that still would not be enough for UE4, so you can already count that out.

[Grymm]

Looking at the new rumors about the cost of materials of the WiiU adding up to only ~$180 and expected to retail for no less than $300 there's no way this thing will support UE4. Maybe with some serious serious concessions... but I still doubt it.

Nintendo price gouging again... I'll wait for the drastic price drop, redesign, ambassador games, if I get it at all.

[WrikaWrek]

180$ to manufacture wouldn't be good news.

[frankie_baby]

Of all the rumors we've heard about Wii-U, the power circles somewhere around 360/PS3 power, whether on par, lower, or slightly higher, that still would not be enough for UE4, so you can already count that out.

But the rumours of the hardware suggest something noticably more powerful, the truth is we just dont know and wont have much clue til at least the summer

[magash]

Looking at the new rumors about the manufacturing costs of the WiiU being ~$180 and expected to retail for no less than $300 there's no way this thing will support UE4. Maybe with some serious serious concessions... but I still doubt it. Nintendo price gouging again... I'll wait for the drastic price drop, redesign, ambassador games, if I get it at all.

Where did you see the manufacturing cost at $180?Please learn to read and comprehend.

[lenovox1]

Looking at the new rumors about the manufacturing costs of the WiiU being ~$180 and expected to retail for no less than $300 there's no way this thing will support UE4. Maybe with some serious serious concessions... but I still doubt it. Nintendo price gouging again... I'll wait for the drastic price drop, redesign, ambassador games, if I get it at all.

To clarify, they're not speculating manufacturing costs, but the estimated price of the materials. For comparison, iSuppli put the 360 Premiums BoM at $323 (its MSRP was $400), and we all know about the $800 estimates for Sony's hardware. (Sidenote: The PS3 was a whole hell of a lot of "what were they thinking?!?" it's first couple of years.)

[frankie_baby]

Looking at the new rumors about the manufacturing costs of the WiiU being ~$180 and expected to retail for no less than $300 there's no way this thing will support UE4. Maybe with some serious serious concessions... but I still doubt it. Nintendo price gouging again... I'll wait for the drastic price drop, redesign, ambassador games, if I get it at all.

First 180 bom does not mean they are price gauging at 300, second i dont believe that number is anything more than a shot in the dark

[GhostTrick]

180$ for unknow components ? Please...
Nobody knows what's inside WiiU... and they already try to estimate the costs ?

[fernoca]

Didnt some developer try (and i would assume fail) to port ue3 to the wii

Yep, don't know what happened and what they managed to do with it. But it was pretty much like Unreal Engine 2.5 on Wii. Red Steel (Wii) and Bioshock were one with UE2.5; but is not like both looked similar nether were used in the same ways.

Even Epic said that in the case of Red Steel (and other Wii games that used 2.5) it was done by those specific developers and not officially by Epic.

Even Nintendo's own stuff; Wind Waker and Twilight Princess were done in the same engine; but both achieved things in different ways both in visuals and gameplay.

Looking at the new rumors about the manufacturing costs of the WiiU being ~$180 and expected to retail for no less than $300 there's no way this thing will support UE4. Maybe with some serious serious concessions... but I still doubt it. Nintendo price gouging again... I'll wait for the drastic price drop, redesign, ambassador games, if I get it at all.

Rumored 'bill of materials', nothing official and not related to power. Is what it costs them to build each, based on their orders. So if they order 1 million of each, that what each item costs by ordering 1 million. More or less; price varies and the other costs associated like advertising, shipping, packaging, R&D and you know..build the whole thing are not counted on that.

[frankie_baby]

Where did you see the manufacturing cost at $180?Please learn to read and comprehend.

Its appeared in the speculation thread, fron some random website

[magash]

Its appeared in the speculation thread, fron some random website

What I am contesting is his use of manufacturing cost instead of bill of materials. The Wii U is still being developed and worked on yet someone already has the estimate of the various components. Doesn't that sound fishy to you?

[frankie_baby]

What I am contensting is his use of manufacturing cost instead of bill of materials. The Wii U is still being developed and worked on yet someone already has the estimate of the various components. Doesn't that sound fishy to you?

Oh totally, the number is bollox

[lenovox1]

Its appeared in the speculation thread, fron some random website

Well, it's not really "manufacturing cost" because a BoM doesn't take the most expensive cost of making a piece of hardware into account: The people involved in assembling all these parts. ETA: Beaten like Hayden Panettierre likes to be. (Allegedly.)

[Grymm]

Edited my post, manufacturing cost was obviously the wrong phrase.

Still we can see, if true, that compared to other pieces of tech it's looking like they're going for another 3DS where they overcharge and hope they can get away with it. Hopefully they don't, it's a scumbag move to do it to the extent that Nintendo does. Taking adanvatage of moms and little kids like that... shame on WiiU Nintendo.

You know it probably deserves its own thread.

[Oddduck]

Nintendo's 3DS cost of materials when it launched at $250. That's $150 more than the bill of materials.

So let's not act like the Wii U being $180 in materials/costs and being priced over $300 at retail is out of the realm of possibility.

[frankie_baby]

Edited my post, manufacturing cost was obviously the wrong phrase. Still we can see, if true, that compared to other pieces of tech it's looking like they're going for another 3DS where they overcharge and hope they can get away with it. Hopefully they don't, it's a scumbag move to do it to the extent that Nintendo does. Taking adanvatage of moms and little kids like that... shame on WiiU Nintendo.

If it really is a 180 bom its not like they'd make much (if any) profit at 300, its not overcharging at all

You have to factor in manufacturing costs, shipping, r&d, software, marketing and retailers cut

[DCharlie]

The Wii U is still being developed and worked on yet someone already has the estimate of the various components. Doesn't that sound fishy to you?

well what does that tell you about the demos then? :O

(we already know but just saying - in all this debate we're still looking at demos from over a year ago that -clearly- are running on target spec PCs. See also : we have yet to see the WiiU pad working natively - E3 will hopefully show us the final tech all up and working, from concept to delivered product)

[Grymm]

If it really is a 180 bom its not like they'd make much (if any) profit at 300, its not overcharging at all

You are obviously out of your mind or being sarcastic.

[Codeblue]

Nintendo's 3DS cost of materials when it launched at $250. That's $150 more than the bill of materials. So let's not act like the Wii U being $180 in materials/costs and being priced over $300 at retail is out of the realm of possibility. [IMG]http://www.isuppli.com/PublishingImages/Press%20Releases/2011-03-28_Nintendo_DS.png[IMG]

Except iSuppli is full of crap.

[udivision]

You know it probably deserves its own thread.

you read my mind

[fernoca]

Edited my post, manufacturing cost was obviously the wrong phrase. Still we can see, if true, that compared to other pieces of tech it's looking like they're going for another 3DS where they overcharge and hope they can get away with it. Hopefully they don't, it's a scumbag move to do it to the extent that Nintendo does.

Like Apple, Sony and Microsoft do (and nearly everyone else) too?
Because their reported BOMs also show relatively lower costs than the MSRP (i.e. Vita's apparently BOM is $159 for the 3G-$300 version).

So, what other pieces of tech are we talking about? The $600 new iPad which (alleged) BOM is $300? The $56 Kinect?

[frankie_baby]

You are obviously out of your mind or being sarcastic.

Read the bit i edited in

[DCharlie]

If it really is a 180 bom its not like they'd make much (if any) profit at 300, its not overcharging at all

... i can't tell what this is... perhaps even Stockholm Syndrome.

[Diablos54]

well what does that tell you about the demos then? :O (we already know but just saying - in all this debate we're still looking at demos from over a year ago that -clearly- are running on target spec PCs.

Wasn't everything running off dev kits at E3 or did I hear wrong?

And about the 3DS cost. Aren't Nintendo taking a loss selling it at $180? Why is that, how much do retailers take for a start?

[frankie_baby]

... i can't tell what this is... perhaps even Stockholm Syndrome.

Why because i dont expect nintendo to take a huge loss on the system? Sure it'd be nice for me if they did but i dont have a right to expect it

[Oddduck]

Except iSuppli is full of crap.

Okay and then take the BOM for Kinect in 2010.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/k...round-56/10331

Microsoft charged $150 for it in November 2010.

Also isn't there a report that PS Vita costs $160 to make, and Sony retails it at $250?

[DCharlie]

Why because i dont expect nintendo to take a huge loss on the system? Sure it'd be nice for me if they did but i dont have a right to expect it

why don't you have a right to expect it?

I sat down and estimated how much money i've thrown at Nintendo over the years and, i got to be honest, i actually DO expect them to meet me half way.

I don't need them to bust a gut but if it turns out they've cheaped out on the Wii U (which i DO NOT expect) then it's hard to not feel they're just pissing on our chips.

I will obviously buy the Wii U because it's going to have Nintendo games on it regardless but i would love them to just put out a machine where we get good value. I frankly don't care about how much margin they are making and, to be frank, regardless of what else is getting taken out if they're at $120 from day 1? They're not only pissing on our chips, but dropping trou so they can curl one off on our chest.

Okay and then take the BOM for Kinect in 2010. http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/k...round-56/10331 Microsoft charged $150 for it in November 2010. Also isn't there a report that PS Vita costs $160 to make, and Sony retails it at $250?

"other companies are anally raping you too so it's fine" is not a defense. That might not be entirely what you are saying, but just putting it out there....

[magash]

well what does that tell you about the demos then? :O (we already know but just saying - in all this debate we're still looking at demos from over a year ago that -clearly- are running on target spec PCs. See also : we have yet to see the WiiU pad working natively - E3 will hopefully show us the final tech all up and working, from concept to delivered product)

The E3 Wii U demos were running on the actual machine.

[lenovox1]

Like Apple, Sony and Microsoft do (and nearly everyone else) too? Because their reported BOMs also show relatively lower costs than the MSRP (i.e. Vita's apparently BOM is $159 for the 3G-$300 version). So, what other pieces of tech are we talking about? The $600 new iPad which (alleged) BOM is $300? The $56 Kinect?

The PS3 was no doubt an anomaly in video game consoles and in the larger consumer electronics world. Still don't know how Sony thought it would evah make money from that thing (and the retail model was even cut down from the E3 model!).

[DCharlie]

The E3 Wii U demos were running on the actual machine.

they had boxed final machines 1 year ago? that seems extremely unlikely given other reports.

care to comment on the Wii U pad and whether that was a full functioning unit a year ago?

[frankie_baby]

why don't you have a right to expect it? I sat down and estimated how much money i've thrown at Nintendo over the years and, i got to be honest, i actually DO expect them to meet me half way. I don't need them to bust a gut but if it turns out they've cheaped out on the Wii U (which i DO NOT expect) then it's hard to not feel they're just pissing on our chips. I will obviously buy the Wii U because it's going to have Nintendo games on it regardless but i would love them to just put out a machine where we get good value. I frankly don't care about how much margin they are making and, to be frank, regardless of what else is getting taken out if they're at $120 from day 1? They're not only pissing on our chips, but dropping trou so they can curl one off on our chest. "other companies are anally raping you too so it's fine" is not a defense. That might not be entirely what you are saying, but just putting it out there....

We have already established 120 buck difference between bom and retail DOES NOT equal profit

[Medalion]

The E3 Wii U demos were running on the actual machine.

There was no actual machine. Those units were just an empty shell casing. They were running on PC devkits for what they were aiming for for the product in development.

[Reallink]

Well, it's not really "manufacturing cost" because a BoM doesn't take the most expensive cost of making a piece of hardware into account: The people involved in assembling all these parts. ETA: Beaten like Hayden Panettierre likes to be. (Allegedly.)

You think $1.20/hr Foxconn workers are the most expensive component in manufacturing? Ahhhhhahahahahahaha. Labor/assembly per unit is $5-$10 tops.

[DCharlie]

We have already established 120 buck difference between bom and retail DOES NOT equal profit

okay - so what do we think the profit margin will end up being (if this is true - of course, we have no idea right now) ?

(note that i am starting to edge towards $249/24900 yen as the Wii U launch price for a number of reasons, so i'm being a little disengenous here - but i'm a little weirded out by what i perceive as fans cheerleading Nintendo's profit margins (not saying that this is particularly what you are doing))

[lenovox1]

You think $1.20/hr Foxconn workers are the most expensive component in manufacturing? Ahhhhhahahahahahaha. Try $5-$10 tops.

Hey, you're right. That would be about $10. It seems like stuff like R&D and software development would be (much) more.

[fernoca]

The PS3 was no doubt an anomaly in video game consoles and in the larger consumer electronics world. Still don't know how Sony thought it was evah make money from that thing (and the retail model was even cut down from the E3 model!).

Not to mention that the alleged source of the Wii U's costs is basing it only on stuff that is known.

Look at how it goes into detail about NFC and the touchscreen, yet doesn't mention stuff that how much flash-memory is inside (which raises the BOM; so the Wii U per se costs less!!!!! :p) or mentions the camera costing "more than the 3DS because of the better quality"; when the resolution of the camera hasn't been mentioned (and is expected to be similar to the 3DS 640x480 @ .3 mega-pixels).

So, don't know why single-out Nintendo, out of a rumored bill of materials, when not only BOMs are not indicative of actual costs, but based on others BOMs... they're not the only ones that are going "against those poor soccer moms".

[frankie_baby]

okay - so what do we think the profit margin will end up being (if this is true - of course, we have no idea right now) ? (note that i am starting to edge towards $249/24900 yen as the Wii U launch price for a number of reasons, so i'm being a little disengenous here - but i'm a little weirded out by what i perceive as fans cheerleading Nintendo's profit margins (not saying that this is particularly what you are doing))

We really dont know what the profit is as we dont know the costs along the way, but say per unit 25 bucks r&d, 20 marketing, 15 manufacturing, 2 packing, 15 shipping, 5 included software, 10 retailer and then thats just a profit of 28 dollars and these numbers are nothing more than a guess so it could easily be much less profit