[theBishop]

This is true, but with 16GB of built in storage you can download good amount of stuff even on a cheapest version of console.

I don't know where to come down on this. Your point about build-in flash makes sense. On the other hand, it would be kind of weird for Sony to go from a 320GB PS3 to a 16GB PS4. If the average game is 8-12GB today, I figure mid-cycle next-gen games will be 20-30GB. So if MS/Sony want to have full-scale digital distribution as an attractive option, mass storage is necessary.

[AzaK]

I don't know where to come down on this. Your point about build-in flash makes sense. On the other hand, it would be kind of weird for Sony to go from a 320GB PS3 to a 16GB PS4. If the average game is 8-12GB today, I figure mid-cycle next-gen games will be 20-30GB. So if MS/Sony want to have full-scale digital distribution as an attractive option, mass storage is necessary.

Like I imagine Nintendo are doing, having only small internal storage but supporting external harddrive would offload the perceived cost of the consol (And help in case size and cooling too) to the consumer.

I think from a company point of view it's a smart move. You a large enough portion of your userbase never uses more than 16GB for a few downloadables and some cache style installs then why put that drive in and charge them. If they want it they can buy it themselves.

[JonathanPower]

Like I imagine Nintendo are doing, having only small internal storage but supporting external harddrive would offload the perceived cost of the consol (And help in case size and cooling too) to the consumer. I think from a company point of view it's a smart move. You a large enough portion of your userbase never uses more than 16GB for a few downloadables and some cache style installs then why put that drive in and charge them. If they want it they can buy it themselves.

USB storage is now also pretty cheap, and they could also include a port for external memory cards. However, a slot for an external hdd would be the most effective solution.

[ReBurn]

It doesn't have an internal one. Apparently it will support external HDDs but unless they go for USB3 transfer rates are going to make it pretty much useless. EDIT: According to reports from E3 last year the USB ports are only 2.0.

Why is that?

[Jacobi]

Why is that?

USB 2 is slow...

[Quicksilver4648]

If their ~$300 console isn't more powerful than hardware released in 2005 then that will be a problem. Maybe not in 2012 to 2014 but it will happen. If they keep on making their console with hardware that just enough to get the job done then I feel there is a major risk in competing with Apple. Don't get me wrong, I understand software is more important than hardware but it doesn't change the fact that by 2014 I can easily see the iPad out spec-ing the Wii U if Apple keeps on pushing at the current rate. Once that happens the only difference between the two becomes software library and physical input devices (buttons/joysticks) since it is obvious the iPad will have a much superior touchscreen.

[DonMigs85]

USB 2 is slow...

But you can put full 360 games on USB mass storage and in many cases it's faster than the original 20GB HDD that the console shipped with.

[markot]

Faster than dvds and blue rays too no?

[blizzardjesus]

USB 2 is slow...

No it's not. Homebrew wiis that are set up for personal backups off an hdd load faster than off the DVD.

[Eusis]

I wonder how much USB 2.0 REALLY limits hard drives. For SSDs I'd have no doubt, but I'd have to read more into USB 2.0. It's probably fast ENOUGH for what Nintendo would want though.

[Horse Armour]

I wonder how much USB 2.0 REALLY limits hard drives. For SSDs I'd have no doubt, but I'd have to read more into USB 2.0. It's probably fast ENOUGH for what Nintendo would want though.

Modern 3.5" hard drives go upto more than 120MB per second, USB2 tops out at 30MB per second so it severely limits HDDs.

[Durante]

No it's not. Homebrew wiis that are set up for personal backups off an hdd load faster than off the DVD.

That doesn't mean that USB 2 isn't slow, just that optical media is incredibly slow.

[chaosblade]

I wonder how much USB 2.0 REALLY limits hard drives. For SSDs I'd have no doubt, but I'd have to read more into USB 2.0. It's probably fast ENOUGH for what Nintendo would want though.

It shouldn't unless you have a particularly fast HDD, and even then it will probably only be on purely sequential reads.

Modern 3.5" hard drives go upto more than 120MB per second, USB2 tops out at 30MB per second so it severely limits HDDs.

USB2 has a theoretical limitation of 60MB, it will hit that about as often as the average HDD does, i.e., not really ever.

Not sure what drives will hit 120MB/s on anything but sequential read tests, and how many can even do that? Samsung F4s and Velociraptors?

[JoshuaJSlone]

No it's not. Homebrew wiis that are set up for personal backups off an hdd load faster than off the DVD.

I've brought this up before; it was replied that Wii's drive isn't as fast as, say, Xbox 360s. Given the relative amounts of data they'll be working with, something fast enough for Wii or even X360 might not seem fast enough on Wii U.

[Durante]

I've brought this up before; it was replied that Wii's drive isn't as fast as, say, Xbox 360s.

Which is in turn slower than the blu-ray drives 720 and PS4 will use. (Probably by a factor of 4 to 8)

[ScreenSplitter]

One guy to game journalists;
"Pssst... I hear some guy said the WiiU won't be very powerful..."
"SOME GUY?! OH MY GOD DID EVERYONE HEAR THAT ABSOLUTE FACT?!"
"YEAH I KNOW, NINTENDO IS DOOMED!"

Seriously guys, really?

Compared to the numerous NAMED sources who've said the contrary?
This is just like those rumours that the 3DS would exceed the PS3/360 and used some graphics chip it never ended up having. Let's consider for a moment the Zelda tech demo; I'm not saying it isn't BS, but it doesn't seem in Nintendo's interest to say the WiiU is more powerful than it is. They've made repeatedly clear that power competition isn't their business. That Zelda demo looked better than anything on PS3 or 360. PS4 or 720? Maybe not, but it looks damn good enough for me.

[Horse Armour]

It shouldn't unless you have a particularly fast HDD, and even then it will probably only be on purely sequential reads. USB2 has a theoretical limitation of 60MB, it will hit that about as often as the average HDD does, i.e., not really ever. Not sure what drives will hit 120MB/s on anything but sequential read tests, and how many can even do that? Samsung F4s and Velociraptors?

USB2 is half duplex so it will only ever reach 30MB not 60MB. By any modern HDD I mean anything newer than my 2 year old Samsung F3 which easily reaches 120MB.

[CorrisD]

Faster than dvds and blue rays too no?

In our current consoles, yup.

The 360 DVD drive is 12x so around 16MB/s, The Wii I think is around 6x so around 8MB/s and PS3's Blu-Ray is 2x so around 9MB/s. USB 2.0 can hit 30-40MB/s from memory, though it is advertised as being higher but will never hit it, at least I sure have never seen it.

So USB can be faster than the typical disk drive in current consoles but there are obviously a lot of other things you have to take into account that these devices have going on in regards to how fast they can load up games, the PS3 iirc will barely decrease the speed of games when playing from a HDD or SSD.

[Boss Doggie]

Wait, why is this thread bumped?

[wsippel]

USB2 is half duplex so it will only ever reach 30MB not 60MB. By any modern HDD I mean anything newer than my 2 year old Samsung F3 which easily reaches 120MB.

~35MB/s with a good USB stack. Good enough, as long as it's at least as fast as the optical drive. A USB2 hard disk is about as fast as an 8x Blu-ray drive, with much better seek times to boot. I don't really see the issue.

[Vagabundo]

Wait, why is this thread bumped?

USB

[JonathanPower]

Modern 3.5" hard drives go upto more than 120MB per second, USB2 tops out at 30MB per second so it severely limits HDDs.

However, USB 3.0 has a maximum transmission speed of 625 MB/s, which is more than enough for any external drive.

[skinnyrattler]

Wait, why is this thread bumped?

Probably for fud and have semi-true debates about the merits of hdd vs USB vs the future.

[JGS]

This all sounds like "& another thing I don't like about the WiiU..." All the negative about an unknown platform from a great company makes me sad faced.

The analyst have made it clear for some reason they will only like Nintendo when they are 3rd party or merged with Apple (Can't believe they get paid for that) and specs seem to pre-occupy the negativity. The only ones that should be complaining about Nintendo's strategy are the ones that don't like their games.

Regardless of HDD, regardless of specs, regardless of the other guys, their standby IP's will look and play fantastically, hopefully they'll make some new ones (Software releases are their biggest weakness. Wii would be selling great now if Nintendo had a stream of games coming out), 3rd parties who are smart enough to come on board and actually market their products instead of whining that Nintendo should dumb their games down will make moola.

That's exactly what they did on 360.

Didn't hurt 360 that much & didn't help PS3 that much selling point wise.

HDD is a convenience if you're just getting retail product like most people. USB will be fine for patches, demos, and whatnot. Plus it is likely to have some internal storage just like Wii. Cloud storage could take care of the rest.

Although I'm fine with it coming with an HDD, I didn't need it too much current gen (Probably my biggest waste of money on the 360 was the hard drive) and don't see why next gen will change radically from this one in terms of setup. Pay for it based on what is needed imo.

[H_Prestige]

So Nintendo will be selling all games through DD. Yet they will not provide users any kind of storage for those games. Whether they realize this or not, that's really going to put a hard limit on how much they sell through DD. Which will stunt the growth of their new Nintendo Network.

It would be kind of like if the 4GB 360 were the only model available, and MS didn't sell hard drives. This just sends the idea that Nintendo is either behind the curve or still doesn't take online that seriously. Or both I guess.

[mugurumakensei]

So Nintendo will be selling all games through DD. Yet they will not provide users any kind of storage for those games. Whether they realize this or not, that's really going to put a hard limit on how much they sell through DD. Which will stunt the growth of their new Nintendo Network. It would be kind of like if the 4GB 360 were the only model available, and MS didn't sell hard drives.

How? You can use any external hard drive you have. An external hard drive is still much faster than any optical drive on current consoles.

[H_Prestige]

How? You can use any external hard drive you have.

Only technically savvy consumers are fine with that. The issue has nothing to do with speed either. For the mainstream crowd, you need to provide an official solution. Either pre-installed/built in, or an official first party hard drive accessory that can be bought alongside the system. Otherwise they won't bother.

[Hieberrr]

Hence why I started with DVD. It's bad enough with DVDs, Blu-Ray game sizes bring even more issues. USB 2.0 is barely enough to play a high bitrate Blu-Ray movie over, let alone streaming game data.

I thought the wii used 2.0. My load times with an external drive are quick as he'll even with a terrible drive.

[mugurumakensei]

Only technically savvy consumers are fine with that. The issue has nothing to do with speed either. For the mainstream crowd, you need to provide an official solution. Either pre-installed/built in, or an official first party hard drive accessory that can be bought alongside the system. Otherwise they won't bother.

Only technically savy consumers are fine with plug and play as opposed to opening up the ps3 or fighting the swapping process for an XBox 360?

[JGS]

Only technically savvy consumers are fine with that. The issue has nothing to do with speed either. For the mainstream crowd, you need to provide an official solution. Either pre-installed/built in, or an official first party hard drive accessory that can be bought alongside the system. Otherwise they won't bother.

I would be shocked and amazed if Nintendo did not have an official HDD solution.

That said, it's not that important to a consumer. They understand USB just fine. By the time WiiU launches, there will not be a standard of retail sized games to be DD anyway. Over the years, it may become standard (Doubtful since those same consumers want physical media), but that's not an issue for launch.

[CrunchyFrog]

USB 2 is slow...

20-25mb/sec on USB2 is enough people. Still faster than Wiis and Xbox360s dvd drive and ps3s blu ray drive. Ps3s Blu Ray drive is a 2x drive with 72mbit wich equals 9mbyte/sec 4x Blu ray drive is 144mbit and therefor 18mb/sec. So an external hdd would have the 4.X speed of a blu ray drive. No complains from my side...

but by all means, don't let facts get in the way.

[DragonSworne]

Only technically savvy consumers are fine with that. The issue has nothing to do with speed either. For the mainstream crowd, you need to provide an official solution. Either pre-installed/built in, or an official first party hard drive accessory that can be bought alongside the system. Otherwise they won't bother.

And you know that Nintendo isn't selling a hard drive as a pheriPhal at launch how?

And there is nothing stopping third parties from branding their HDs as WiiU compatible.


Anyway, WiiU will be using a blu-ray drive, so USB2 will likely have a faster transfer rate then what comes in the WiiU.

[H_Prestige]

Only technically savy consumers are fine with plug and play as opposed to opening up the ps3 or fighting the swapping process for an XBox 360?

Yes. How many people do you think are swapping out their ps3 hard drives? Only the techy guys do it.

Yes, the actual act of using a hard drive on the wii u is "plug and play". Assuming the average guy even knows what a hard drive is and where to buy one. Or what the difference between external and internal is. Or what those 3.5 and 2.5 numbers mean. Or usb 2 vs 3.

You present all that to the average customer as one option of playing a game, or simply buying the game disc right there along with his new shiny system as the other option, which do you think he will go with?

[DragonSworne]

Yes. How many people do you think are swapping out their ps3 hard drives? Only the techy guys do it. Yes, the actual act of using a hard drive on the wii u is "plug and play". Assuming the average guy even knows what a hard drive is and where to buy one. Or what the difference between external and internal is. Or what those 3.5 and 2.5 numbers mean. Or usb 2 vs 3.

You do know there is a simple solution, right?

When using the WiiU, if storage space runs low, a notification pops up warning of the low storage and it will provide a link to compatible external hard dives on amazon or bestbuy.

Why woulsn't they do that?

You seem so focused on presenting problems when the solutions to them are so easy and numerous. A big internal hard drive is not the only correct answer.

[Cipherr]

but unless they go for USB3 transfer rates are going to make it pretty much useless.

This is the most hilariously ridiculous thing I have read in this thread.

A few mutliples FASTER than any of this current gens drives in terms of transfer rates would make USB2.0 drives useless?

Either you dont, or didnt know the transfer speeds of current USB HDs and this gens drives transfer rates, or you are just making up stuff as you go. Theres no reason rooted in reality to believe that statement would be true.

USB 2 is slow...

Except its not, especially compared to mechanical disc drives like BluRay and DVD.

20-25mb/sec on USB2 is enough people. Still faster than Wiis and Xbox360s dvd drive and ps3s blu ray drive. Ps3s Blu Ray drive is a 2x drive with 72mbit wich equals 9mbyte/sec 4x Blu ray drive is 144mbit and therefor 18mb/sec. So an external hdd would have the 4.X speed of a blu ray drive. No complains from my side...

This post pretty much seals it. Trying to sell "Multiple times faster than current gens disc drives" as "Useless" for the console is ridiculous.

[JB1981]

Yes. How many people do you think are swapping out their ps3 hard drives? Only the techy guys do it. Yes, the actual act of using a hard drive on the wii u is "plug and play". Assuming the average guy even knows what a hard drive is and where to buy one. Or what the difference between external and internal is. Or what those 3.5 and 2.5 numbers mean. Or usb 2 vs 3. You present all that to the average customer as one option of playing a game, or simply buying the game disc right there along with his new shiny system as the other option, which do you think he will go with?

Swapping out the HDD felt like a big accomplishment to me. Not only that I then had to download the latest firmware off Sony's site to my USB stick and then formatted the drive. It was easier than expected but also kind of scary. Definitely not something the average user would do.

[Vane_MagicCity]

If a HDD is not packed in, it won't be very successful and the selling of full retail games over DD won't be very successful. If the Wiimote were not sold with each and every Wii...it would have seen the success of the Move.

[H_Prestige]

If a HDD is not packed in, it won't be very successful and the selling of full retail games over DD won't be very successful. If the Wiimote were not sold with each and every Wii...it would have seen the success of the Move.

Exactly. And telling people to buy computer parts isn't the answer.

[Neo C.]

Yes, the actual act of using a hard drive on the wii u is "plug and play". Assuming the average guy even knows what a hard drive is and where to buy one. Or what the difference between external and internal is. Or what those 3.5 and 2.5 numbers mean. Or usb 2 vs 3.

2.5 or 3.5 isn't a problem, neither is usb 2 or 3. I don't even see the problem with external or internal, people buy external HDD in droves.

[PetrCobra]

However, USB 3.0 has a maximum transmission speed of 625 MB/s, which is more than enough for any external drive.

640 kilobytes ought to be enough for anybody

But yeah, nowadays, that speed is pretty cool, way faster than the fastest HDD out there and it would really make sense to use the external storage to install games if the Wii U had USB3, because it would be much faster than playing from the optical drive.

With USB2, the transfer rate kinda limits the hard drive and while it's still somewhere in the ballpark of modern DVD/BD drives, it wouldn't make much sense to install games there unless you would do it simply to make your optical drive last longer.

Still, if I can buy a cheap USB2 hard drive and use it with my Wii U, I'll just get a 2TB one and be happy. It's not like the limits are all that limiting, after all, and I won't have to worry about not having enough space or having to buy overpriced proprietary storage. Nintendo pioneered this approach when they allowed using SD cards in the Wii, while other console makers are still to this very day trying to make money on the storage solutions.

[mugurumakensei]

640 kilobytes ought to be enough for anybody But yeah, nowadays, that speed is pretty cool, way faster than the fastest HDD out there and it would really make sense to use the external storage to install games if the Wii U had USB3, because it would be much faster than playing from the optical drive. With USB2, the transfer rate kinda limits the hard drive and while it's still somewhere in the ballpark of modern DVD/BD drives, it wouldn't make much sense to install games there unless you would do it simply to make your optical drive last longer.

USB2 speeds are still around 8x BD speed. IE 4X faster than the PS3 Blu-Ray drive. Accounting for seek times, USB2 external is even more ahead of optical.

[JGS]

Exactly. And telling people to buy computer parts isn't the answer.

Hey won't need to buy the parts if they can still purchase retail games.

An HDD is not a necessary launch component for WiiU. It's still not even needed for the 360- what I am assuming is the good standard.

[5amshift]

Really? People still don't know that every Nintendo system isn't spec crazy? They never were..

[H_Prestige]

Hey won't need to buy the parts if they can still purchase retail games. An HDD is not a necessary launch component for WiiU. It's still not even needed for the 360- what I am assuming is the good standard.

This is exactly my point. Nintendo is just encouraging people to not buy games through DD.

[PetrCobra]

USB2 speeds are still around 8x BD speed. IE 4X faster than the PS3 Blu-Ray drive. Accounting for seek times, USB2 external is even more ahead of optical.

True... although PS3 is a little old by now, but still I don't think it's a problem to only have USB2.

If done right. The USB transfer speed of my 2 years old Lumix camera is horrendous compared to pulling out the SD card and loading the data directly. But I don't think Nintendo would screw up something like this.

[JoshuaJSlone]

To have any digital purchasing success you need hundreds of gigabytes built in from the start, like all of Apple's devices.

If there aren't Nintendo-branded hard drives, we'll for sure see the Nykos or Mad Catzes of the world stocking game accessory aisles with white "Works on Wii U!" drives.

[BurntPork]

Only technically savvy consumers are fine with that. The issue has nothing to do with speed either. For the mainstream crowd, you need to provide an official solution. Either pre-installed/built in, or an official first party hard drive accessory that can be bought alongside the system. Otherwise they won't bother.

People aren't as stupid as you think. They just need to be told that USB hard drives work.

EDIT: *looks at posts above* Damn. You must think that 90% of the population is mentally retarded or something...

[CoffeeJanitor]

People aren't as stupid as you think. They just need to be told that USB hard drives work. EDIT: *looks at posts above* Damn. You must think that 90% of the population is mentally retarded or something...

He's right with how clueless people can be. Also, market fragmentation, dude.

[H_Prestige]

People aren't as stupid as you think. They just need to be told that USB hard drives work. EDIT: *looks at posts above* Damn. You must think that 90% of the population is mentally retarded or something...

They are stupid. Especially when it comes to computer stuff.

You haven't heard all those stories from gamestop or best buy like where retards come in wondering why they can't play their super mario DS game on their PSP? This is the kind of intelligence these companies are dealing with.

[Vane_MagicCity]

Really? People still don't know that every Nintendo system isn't spec crazy? They never were..

There were Nintendo consoles before the Wii. Compare the Gamecube to the PS2, N64 to the PS1 and the SNES to Genesis.