[Alextended]

You didn't actually answer the question you quoted...

[numble]

You didn't actually answer the question you quoted...

I don't think you need a $50 million budget to be AAA, or even under your edited $25-$50 million description, and I think it can be lower on iOS.

Gears of War just cost $10 million, for instance.
AAA games on PS2, PSP, Vita, Wii, DS cost much less, but I think they're not actually AAA under your criteria.
Wii Sports has the revenue and pricing for AAA.

[Alextended]

Yeah, and NES games cost even less to make!

And Angry Birds is AAA cos profit.

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

[Dreams-Visions]

Yeah, and NES games cost even less to make! And Angry Birds is AAA cos profit.

You're trying way too hard. Creating hyperbole-filled straw men like this and failing to respond intellectually to his comments is not a good look.

[Alextended]

You're trying way too hard.

Nah, I just mostly replied to the first instance of his post which mostly mentioned PS2 budgets there, as irrelevant as they are at the end of the gen after theirs. And no, I don't think PSP/3DS/Vita and the like have any AAA games either, that I've seen or to my knowledge. Good games with at best medium budgets? Sure, but that's a different matter, one I didn't begin to discuss here. It's not like I ever said Republique or other, even far lower budget, games couldn't be good, great, awesome or anything of the sort, I love many indie, obscure, low budget games, and a few on iOS, I merely disagreed with its AAA description as it's there just as PR.

[numble]

Yeah, and NES games cost even less to make! And Angry Birds is AAA cos profit.

Why must iOS games have $25-50 million budgets when they have at-best, PS2-level hardware?
Are there no AAA games on Wii because the games have PS2 level budgets?
Even Gears of War and Uncharted 2 was under your $25-50 million budget, you have a very high standard for budgets.
If it's just about pricing of the games, all those shovelware console games for $59.99 can't be AAA, either.

[Alextended]

Well, I haven't seen AAA Wii games either for that matter, outside some last gen port perhaps. Though we don't know what kind of production budgets the first Galaxy game had, it was probably quite modest regardless of the quality.

iOS has exceeded PS2 in many ways, sorry.

And I never implied it's anything but the development budget that defines AAA so I dunno why you keep talking about pricing.

[numble]

And I never implied it's anything but the development budget that defines AAA so I dunno why you keep talking about pricing.

You implied right here that you need "AAA pricing" and "AAA revenue" to be an AAA product:

Not that your 2) there has any real basis since regardless of their immitation they're not AAA products, don't have AAA pricing, and don't have AAA revenue (a single AAA game would have the whole of Gameloft's revenue you cited if successful, though not all would go to the publisher, and revenue isn't what qualifies a product as AAA, or Angry Birds would be considered one too, lol).

And here:

none of their games come close to being AAA products, which their iOS friendly pricing also reflects

[Alextended]

Well, I do believe that a real AAA game would have to be more expensive than Gameloft's games are, to make up for the much, much higher budgets needed, but that's not what would make them AAA, I'm sorry if that came across wrong (though at worst that implied you need all the elements, so just going on about pricing as stand alone still doesn't fit). If they wanted to be charitable and pay more yet risk not earning more (because sales volume wouldn't necessarily increase dramatically, and AAA games can fail to become worthwhile for the publisher too, as shown by my "if successful" qualifer there) I wouldn't stop them, fear not.

I mean, if any pretty good game with nice enough graphics, VA, and the like, is AAA, what are the $25-50 million projects?

AAAA or AAA+++ like that one company's ridiculous PR (iirc)?

AAA has always defined the top tier, and the current (not the PS2's or whatever) top tier is pretty damn high. That is all.

[numble]

Nah, I just mostly replied to the first instance of his post which mostly mentioned PS2 budgets there, as irrelevant as they are at the end of the gen after theirs. And no, I don't think PSP/3DS/Vita and the like have any AAA games either, that I've seen or to my knowledge. Good games with at best medium budgets? Sure, but that's a different matter, one I didn't begin to discuss here. It's not like I ever said Republique or other, even far lower budget, games couldn't be good, great, awesome or anything of the sort, I love many indie, obscure, low budget games, and a few on iOS, I merely disagreed with its AAA description as it's there just as PR.

I think you have a very weird definition of AAA that does not fit with common usage. Both the gaming press and the gaming companies regularly refer to certain games on those platforms as being AAA. And they definitely referred to Gears of War, Mario Galaxy, and Uncharted 2 as AAA games despite falling short of your $25-50 million budget figure. I think production values and quality are far more important.

AAA has always defined the top tier, and the current (not the PS2's or whatever) top tier is pretty damn high.

A top tier game does not mean the most expensive to produce.
Is John Carter a top tier movie?

[Alextended]

I meant the top tier production cost wise, as I said before. GTA etc. And I dunno if I'm weird, searching for the meaning of AAA on GAF shows lots of people have similar budget based definitions for it. I suppose when everyone started using it as just marketing speak things got muddled. 2 dudes in their basement might be able to make the best looking game ever and may sell it for $20 (heh, Hawken comes to mind as almost that situation, just not so exaggerated) but that wouldn't make it an AAA game to me, and others, even if it was so awesome I was willing to pay $60 for it and thought they're crazy asking for less and it went on to sell a billion copies or whatever. Anyway, still, as my first post said, it's just a reason for why people may not be going along with that AAA thing, ie, because their definition of AAA, like mine, differs to the definition people like Republique's devs have. Simple.

Yeah, ok, so Uncharted 1 & 2 cost 20 million each, still the same ballpark, not exactly the kind of gap from 200k or 2m... My numbers were examples obviously, there's no official threshold as there's no central authority for the matter. Again, feel free to think $200k = AAA, others don't consider it such and that is why there may be arguments against such statements is all I said.

[numble]

I meant the top tier production cost wise, as I said before. GTA etc. And I dunno if I'm weird, searching for the meaning of AAA on GAF shows lots of people have similar budget based definitions for it. I suppose when everyone started using it as just marketing speak things got muddled. 2 dudes in their basement might be able to make the best looking game ever and may sell it for $20 (heh, Hawken comes to mind as almost that situation, just not so exaggerated) but that wouldn't make it an AAA game to me, and others, even if it was so awesome I was willing to pay $60 for it and thought they're crazy asking for less and it went on to sell a billion copies or whatever. Anyway, still, as my first post said, it's just a reason for why people may not be going along with that AAA thing, ie, because their definition of AAA, like mine, differs to the definition people like Republique's devs have. Simple.

People on GAF really would say Mario Galaxy, Uncharted 2 and Gears of War aren't AAA? That you need a $25-50 million budget on any platform to be AAA? That the only platforms with AAA games are PS360? I doubt it.

[StuBurns]

AAA was always a matter of it's importance to the publisher as I understand it. It means the equivalent of a summer blockbuster, and event movie etc. The actual cost to the publisher isn't what defines it I don't think. It's certainly not a question of quality.

[Sarah_Bryant]

So he's one of those people who gets in the face of the more famous posters on GAF trying to make a name for himself. What a chap.

Just not a fan of fake indies actually.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Just not a fan of fake indies actually.

Doesn't explain why you were hounding him before and calling him a liar and claiming he was fired when he first left 343i. Care to explain your fixation upon the man? When over a quarter of your entire post history is devoted to smearing someone personally across multiple threads, it begs the question: Who are you? A bitter colleague? Jealous rival? Jilted lover? All of the above? If your intent is to make him look bad you're only making him look like a champ for taking your creepy vendetta in stride.

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

Just not a fan of fake indies actually.

Not a fan of knowing what words mean either, independent 'indie' in this case just refers to not being own by a larger company, the idea that people in that position shouldn't take a salary is childish and absurd.

[Dog Problems]

Doesn't explain why you were hounding him before and calling him a liar and claiming he was fired when he first left 343i. Care to explain your fixation upon the man? When over a quarter of your entire post history is devoted to smearing someone personally across multiple threads, it begs the question: Who are you? A bitter colleague? Jealous rival? Jilted lover? All of the above? If your intent is to make him look bad you're only making him look like a champ for taking your creepy vendetta in stride.

Judging from previous posts I'm under the impression that it's just a troll account. Most of the posts aren't to be taken serious. Though I like the idea of a bitter lover more.

[Special J]

was looking at other kickstarter projects and really dont understand why things are popular and others aren't theres no logic in what gets funded and what doesnt

some barely make it others manage to make 10x their funding. i dunno.

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

was looking at other kickstarter projects and really dont understand why things are popular and others aren't theres no logic in what gets funded and what doesnt some barely make it others manage to make 10x their funding. i dunno.

I could point to a 3 letter answer, but it's already been said.

[Tigel]

I just pledged 60$.
I really hope that this project will be successful. Good luck Ryan!

[Vyer]

AAA was always a matter of it's importance to the publisher as I understand it. It means the equivalent of a summer blockbuster, and event movie etc. The actual cost to the publisher isn't what defines it I don't think. It's certainly not a question of quality.

I've always felt it depends on the source. Like you said, publisher might have a different definition than developer than gamer. Quality might not a big part of the definition across the board.

[Sarah_Bryant]

Who are you? A bitter colleague? Jealous rival? Jilted lover? All of the above? If your intent is to make him look bad you're only making him look like a champ for taking your creepy vendetta in stride.

Believe what you want. I am just calling a spade a spade where I see it.

Payton claims that he's not creatively excited about Halo 4 but he's the creative director for the game? The creative director cant make the game creatively exciting? In Halo? ORly?

Then later when 343 set the record straight he changes his tune and admits he wasn't the creative director after all.

Now he's a scrappy indie but he needs a million dollars to keep paying himself a salary so he can make the worlds first "real" game on mobile.

Ok.

[ArjanN]

Believe what you want. I am just calling a spade a spade where I see it. Payton claims that he's not creatively excited about Halo 4 but he's the creative director for the game? The creative director cant make the game creatively exciting? In Halo? ORly? Then later when 343 set the record straight he changes his tune and admits he wasn't the creative director after all. Now he's a scrappy indie but he needs a million dollars to keep paying himself a salary so he can make the worlds first "real" game on mobile. Ok.

Haha, so bitter.

[Dreams-Visions]

Haha, so bitter.

Seriously. I don't even.

[Sumidor]

This thread is so.. not what I thought it would be like.

[Dog Problems]

This thread is so.. not what I thought it would be like.

Yeah, it's been a roller coaster. Discussions on various aspects of iOS gaming that go all over the place, a crazy stalker of Ryan's showing up.

[Dacvak]

Half a million on Kickstarter for an iPhone game. Get. Freaking. Real.

This will not be made.

[Margalis]

The creative director cant make the game creatively exciting? In Halo? ORly?

It's pretty clear that Halo 4 has a mandate to copy COD.

[Massa]

Half a million on Kickstarter for an iPhone game. Get. Freaking. Real. This will not be made.

It's actually getting made right now.

[Dacvak]

It's actually getting made right now.

What happens when he doesn't reach his Kickstarter goal? Doesn't he lose all that pledge money?

[narca]

What happens when he doesn't reach his Kickstarter goal? Doesn't he lose all that pledge money?

Yes, Kickstarters only get funded if the project meets its goal, otherwise the money is never collected from the backers.

[Massa]

What happens when he doesn't reach his Kickstarter goal? Doesn't he lose all that pledge money?

If they don't get funding from Kickstarter they will evaluate their other options.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

was looking at other kickstarter projects and really dont understand why things are popular and others aren't theres no logic in what gets funded and what doesn't

You just now noticed this?

[randrews]

I had a chance to meet with Ryan this weekend. He seems like a totally genuine guy and he totally believes in the project. I have no idea if he's gonna reach his goal or not, but I totally support the guy. Good luck Ryan! I'm really stoked to see the finished game!

[Ministration]

Ryan, I don't know you, but thank you for dreaming big. It's goddamned scary to see how things are unfolding, but your (hopeful) success may help the rest of us who believe in serious gaming on iOS.

I feel like being an indie dev is tough enough, and being an indie dev on iOS is even worse. If you try to make a sophisticated game for a core audience, you often run the risk of falling into the abyss of "niche". This is what happened when I and my partners pooled our life savings together to make our first game, Ravenmark on iOS. Things haven't worked out as well as we'd hoped, but I always chalked it up to being more niche than the average iOS gamer could stand to swallow.

It's taken me by surprise to see how the backing rate for Republique has slowed, despite the amazing amount of buzz it's generating (whether by merit or by controversy). I would have thought that the promise of AAA gaming on iOS that isn't Infinity Blade or Chaos Rings would have galvanized core gamers, but watching how things are unfolding for Republique now, I've realized how much people at large just dislike taking risks on unknown quantities.

I hope things change. Movements like Kickstarter were meant to provide the opportunity for the market at large to give projects other than endless Call of Duty clones and nostalgia trips (see Double Fine Adventure, Wasteland 2) a chance to thrive. The Banner Saga is a great example of something started by folks without an existing IP or "star power"; if that works for people, why doesn't Republique? Is it purely the "stigma" of iOS?

[Ignis Fatuus]

The Banner Saga is a great example of something started by folks without an existing IP or "star power"; if that works for people, why doesn't Republique? Is it purely the "stigma" of iOS?

This thread has many pages of answers to that. Here's the gist in a few posts.

I would have thought that the promise of AAA gaming on iOS that isn't Infinity Blade or Chaos Rings would have galvanized core gamers

Oh it's galvanized core gamers, just not in the direction you want.

[funkystudent]

Is Ryan really wearing a leather hoodie in that video interview on there kickstarter page?

I didnt even know such a thing existed.

[Ministration]

This thread has many pages of answers to that. Here's the gist in a few posts.

Thanks for pointing the way back to those posts, I appreciate it. The insights are great.

Without data, it's hard to determine the truth, but can anyone say it true that most core gamers on PC and consoles do not own a smartphone (whether iOS or Android) and are therefore disinclined to support smartphone game projects, as you are suggesting?

If we're going to talk about market segmentation, I find it fairly hard to believe, based on the sheer number of iOS devices sold, that there is no significant overlap between the core gamer market and the market of iOS device owners.

If you consider yourself a core gamer, but also own an iOS device, is your inclination really to say "I'm only gonna use iOS to play timewasters, core-gaming experiences MUST stay on PC and consoles"? My impression is that people would be open to core-gaming experiences on any platform they own, but I seem to receiving information to the contrary.

EDIT: Just in case I've been mistaken - I'm not saying that this overlap between core gamer types and smartphone owners is necessarily comparable to the size of the full "hungry" core gamer market that backs stuff like DFA and Wasteland 2. But I generally thought the overlap would be large enough to sustain interest in projects like Republique.

[mavs]

Thanks for pointing the way back to those posts, I appreciate it. The insights are great. Without data, it's hard to determine the truth, but can anyone say it true that most core gamers on PC and consoles do not own a smartphone (whether iOS or Android) and are therefore disinclined to support smartphone game projects, as you are suggesting? If we're going to talk about market segmentation, I find it fairly hard to believe, based on the sheer number of iOS devices sold, that there is no significant overlap between the core gamer market and the market of iOS device owners. If you consider yourself a core gamer, but also own an iOS device, is your inclination really to say "I'm only gonna use iOS to play timewasters, core-gaming experiences MUST stay on PC and consoles"? My impression is that people would be open to core-gaming experiences on any platform they own, but I seem to receiving information to the contrary. EDIT: Just in case I've been mistaken - I'm not saying that this overlap between core gamer types and smartphone owners is necessarily comparable to the size of the full "hungry" core gamer market that backs stuff like DFA and Wasteland 2. But I generally thought the overlap would be large enough to sustain interest in projects like Republique.

I don't think it's a given that this project would make it on PC. It has an extremely high goal, a relatively thin pedigree, and the design doesn't match up well with any pools of burning passion waiting to be ignited. I don't have any stake in this project though so if I'm way off base I'd like to hear about it.

[DiscoJer]

If you consider yourself a core gamer, but also own an iOS device, is your inclination really to say "I'm only gonna use iOS to play timewasters, core-gaming experiences MUST stay on PC and consoles"? My impression is that people would be open to core-gaming experiences on any platform they own, but I seem to receiving information to the contrary. EDIT: Just in case I've been mistaken - I'm not saying that this overlap between core gamer types and smartphone owners is necessarily comparable to the size of the full "hungry" core gamer market that backs stuff like DFA and Wasteland 2. But I generally thought the overlap would be large enough to sustain interest in projects like Republique.

If you read the various Vita threads (or rumors about Sony announcing new games), a large number of people apparently think that gaming like this should only be done on consoles (or PCs), and putting a complex or console like experience on a portable is a waste.

And while some people disagree (most Vita threads seem to devolve into two camps), most of those own Vitas, who also tend to be hostile to games like this coming to iOS but not Vita (since they bought a Vita for complex games).

And lastly, I think there are simply many gamers who see traditional gaming, either on handhelds (with buttons) or even consoles threatened by iOS. It's like asking cavalrymen to donate money to help make a new model of tank.

I don't think it's a given that this project would make it on PC. It has an extremely high goal, a relatively thin pedigree, and the design doesn't match up well with any pools of burning passion waiting to be ignited. I don't have any stake in this project though so if I'm way off base I'd like to hear about it.

I'm sure it would do better, but yeah, if Jane Jensen can't reach $500,000, well...

[soultron]

Have you and Ryan done the podcast yet, Ignis? It's coming, right? I'd actually love to hear you guys discuss the sphere of issues relating to Republique.

[EternalGamer]

Is Ryan really wearing a leather hoodie in that video interview on there kickstarter page? I didnt even know such a thing existed.

It's to protect from the Big Brother mind waves!

Seriously, though I think IOS is the wrong platform (despite owning an IPAd 3), but I still invested because I respected the idea of Ryan Payton talking about developing more meaningful games on the 8-4 Podcast months ago.

But hearing Payton talk about this game's themes and it's relevance makes me sort of cringe. He wants to claim he is making a game that is meaningful and relevant but that really doesn't seem true. The reason you make a game about a police state isn't because it is relevant to anyone living in the West. It is stupid to even say that and it makes me think your politics and your worldview lacks sophistication at best, and that they are paranoid and outdated ("The Red Scare") at the worst.

The reason he is using the police state theme in reality is probably because it makes for an entertaining game set up, which is fine. Just don't try to hide behind the idea that it is culturally or politically relevant "in these crazy times we are living in." That kind of talk makes me regret my support.

[Ulairi]

Is Ryan really wearing a leather hoodie in that video interview on there kickstarter page? I didnt even know such a thing existed.

To be an iOS developer one must look like an iOS developer.

[diffusionx]

Nintendos Sales/Revenue for Quarter Ended 03/31/2011 is $206.35B http://www.marketwatch.com/investing...income/quarter $25.4 million for one of iOS most successful publishers isn't very impressive at all.

206.35B yen. You need to convert that to dollars. It's actually like $2.5 billion.

Which obviously makes Nintendo about 100x bigger than Gameloft, but this isn't a surprise. Anyone who says Nintendo should wholeheartedly embrace iOS is a moron, but it's not like the iOS pie is shrinking. There's going to be a lot of money going forward. $25 million in a quarter will look like pocket change in a few years.

[K701]

I've donated about $600 to various kickstarter projects. This one won't see a single cent from me.

Why?

1. Because what they show in the video does not interest me. From what is shown it look like you pinch to zoom to look for stuff to hijack and then use the info gathered to tell her where to go. It just doesn't seem fun to me.

2. On the "Why use kickstarter?" section you can find this:

"After months of meetings and due diligence, we believe that we can raise the necessary additional funds to complete République from potential outside investors, but there is some risk that our efforts will be unsuccessful. Before we enter into any financial agreements, we want to prove through Kickstarter that there is a market for a serious AAA mobile game."

To me this reads like:

"We don't really need kickstarter, we're just using it to prove a point."

Furthermore to claim your game is AAA seems cocky, and the way it's written implies there are no other AAA games on iOS, which is even cockier and annoying.

It also implies:

"If you want future AAA games on iOS from anyone, you must donate to us to prove there is a merket"

Which, based on the comments in this thread, is what some people really believe.

[LuchaShaq]

As someone who hasn't liked anything the man has made, and have ZERO desire for this type of game (even if it was the best stealth game ever) I have to believe this would have 10X as much funding if this was PC first not ios.

The best parts of ios gaming are things like dungeon raid/game dev story. Stuff I can play for 2-3 minutes and come back.

Story driven with voice acting/cut scenes? I don't even want that on vita/3ds let alone an iphone that doesn't have physical controls and is on a tiny tiny screen.

Madness.

[Ignis Fatuus]

If you consider yourself a core gamer, but also own an iOS device, is your inclination really to say "I'm only gonna use iOS to play timewasters, core-gaming experiences MUST stay on PC and consoles"? My impression is that people would be open to core-gaming experiences on any platform they own, but I seem to receiving information to the contrary. EDIT: Just in case I've been mistaken - I'm not saying that this overlap between core gamer types and smartphone owners is necessarily comparable to the size of the full "hungry" core gamer market that backs stuff like DFA and Wasteland 2. But I generally thought the overlap would be large enough to sustain interest in projects like Republique.

I think you underestimate just how divisive and clannish gamers can be, core gamers especially. The most passionate enthusiasts tend to have the strongest opinions, the strongest loyalties, and indeed the strongest biases. For a case in point, if you were following The Banner Saga's progress closely you might have noticed that a very vocal chunk of backers began rioting when console ports entered the discussion. These were tactical RPG gamers who had watched Dragon Age become mangled beyond recognition in the pursuit of console cash. Those of us who could consider the matter rationally realized that there's really almost no plausible way that a console port could damage a turn based strategy game, but a subset of gamers simply did not want to apply critical thinking. Their rage against the console crowd burned so hot that they didn't want to tolerate any console porting whatsoever.

And that was mere infighting among fans who all probably considered themselves core gamers. Imagine then how many gamers might consider phone gaming and Facebook gaming to be the enemy. Look at the reaction Brian Fargo got at the very mention of the word social. There is a broad spectrum of people who might be opposed to games like Republique being iOS exclusive, and there are many legitimate arguments that they can make. But there is also the fact that in this industry, you can never count on getting a fair hearing from everyone.

Have you and Ryan done the podcast yet, Ignis? It's coming, right? I'd actually love to hear you guys discuss the sphere of issues relating to Republique.

Last I heard he's trying to find a podcast this week that will suit both our schedules. I'm looking forward to it.

[LuchaShaq]

People are blaming toucharcade in earlier parts of this thread? LOLWUT?

There are literally almost 100 ios kickstarters, after sites got spammed by people jumping on the double fine wagon they didn't want to keep covering them. It's not that complicated and it's happened on plenty of sites. Giantbomb is another example, they covered a bunch right after double fine then realized oh wait fuck this nonsense.

[Jhriad]

Just not a fan of fake indies actually.

Join Date: 06-10-2004

Total Posts: 23 (0.01 posts per day)


I think we can all benefit from your continued silence.