[Mobius1]

The Kickstarter succeeding means they get to keep creative control. That's a plus for everyone.

Yup. Creative control (hopefully) = a better game

[sixghost]

No income tax because it would be a business expense that is tax-deductible. Both when they spend the initial amount and after they get 91% back and spend it on business expenses. The Kickstarter taxes are not that big. Say there is $200k in the pot ($182k after Kickstarter and Amazon's cut). If you want it, you need to cough up $300k, but you'll get 91% back. So it's paying $27,000 for $182,000. Would you pay someone $27k to get $182k back?

This logic only works if they never expect to release the game, or ever generate revenue.

Here's a really simple income statement(keep in mind it would actually be much more complicated since their dev cycle seems like it will be split about 50/50 across their 2012 and 2013 tax return)
Assuming the game was developed and released in the same year:
Revenue
500,000 - Kickstarter Money
490,000 - Sales(assume 70,000 sales, at $10 less Apples 30% cut, so $7 per)
990,000 - Total Revenue
Expense
500,000 - Dev Costs(just assuming they spend the exact amount they received from KS)
490,000 - Gross Profit

The main difference between using Kickstarter as a source of capital and venture capital, or personal funds is that most of the more traditional methods of funding are not subject to tax. Kickstarter funds are seen as plain old sales revenue in the eyes of the IRS. In the situation above, if Camoflaj had saved up $500,000 of their own money, or received the $500k from an investor, they would have paid no tax at all, since the expenses would be used to cancel out the dev costs, rather than the Kickstarter money.

Like I said, it would be more complicated if things were split between 12/13, but long story short, the money would eventually be taxed. Though there is no state tax in Washington, they'd be paying somewhere between 25-39% in federal income tax.

[Vamphuntr]

It's great that the announcement of the voice actors really gave the project a boost! Hopefully this will make it. I know the game will be made anyway but it would be good if Payton could make the game he really wants.

I'll be there for the iOS version.

[Zen]

I'll be there for the PC or Vita version (Payton has commented that he'd love to bring it to Vita). I'll donate something, the project has always seemed top shelf, but the announcement of PC/Mac versions and my 2 favorite voice actors has really put it over the top (Nolan North completes the Trinity).

[NervousXtian]

It's great that the announcement of the voice actors really gave the project a boost! Hopefully this will make it. I know the game will be made anyway but it would be good if Payton could make the game he really wants. I'll be there for the iOS version.

Wait, where is this line of thinking coming from? His vision of the game is what will be made regardless of KS going through.

This isn't a game that wasn't being made any other way, it was going to be made. This fails, nothing changes.

I felt that from the start, and they've confirmed it.

[EternalGamer]

It's great that the announcement of the voice actors really gave the project a boost! Hopefully this will make it. I know the game will be made anyway but it would be good if Payton could make the game he really wants. I'll be there for the iOS version.

I don't know why everyone assumes it would be better for this new team to have to work without constraints. Sometimes contraints are good.

George Lucas had to work with an editor, producers, and within a budget on the first three Star Wars movies. He didn't have to answer to anybody when he made the sequels.

[DXPett1]

I don't know why everyone assumes it would be better for this new team to have to work without constraints. Sometimes contraints are good. George Lucas had to work with an editor, producers, and within a budget on the first three Star Wars movies. He didn't have to answer to anybody when he made the sequels.

This isn't Payton's (or the other members of the team for that matter) first blockbuster/AAA/whatever game. I understand stand your point though. Having constraints makes you more focused but I think we can agree that the positives of creative freedom outweight the negative right?

[numble]

This logic only works if they never expect to release the game, or ever generate revenue. Here's a really simple income statement(keep in mind it would actually be much more complicated since their dev cycle seems like it will be split about 50/50 across their 2012 and 2013 tax return) Assuming the game was developed and released in the same year: Revenue 500,000 - Kickstarter Money 490,000 - Sales(assume 70,000 sales, at $10 less Apples 30% cut, so $7 per) 990,000 - Total Revenue Expense 500,000 - Dev Costs(just assuming they spend the exact amount they received from KS) 490,000 - Gross Profit The main difference between using Kickstarter as a source of capital and venture capital, or personal funds is that most of the more traditional methods of funding are not subject to tax. Kickstarter funds are seen as plain old sales revenue in the eyes of the IRS. In the situation above, if Camoflaj had saved up $500,000 of their own money, or received the $500k from an investor, they would have paid no tax at all, since the expenses would be used to cancel out the dev costs, rather than the Kickstarter money. Like I said, it would be more complicated if things were split between 12/13, but long story short, the money would eventually be taxed. Though there is no state tax in Washington, they'd be paying somewhere between 25-39% in federal income tax.

That's a whole lot of writing to show that money spent in expenses are not taxed as profit, or to put it another way expenses are deducted from revenue to arrive at taxable profit. As most Kickstarters claim that the money is being raised towards development costs, that money is not taxed, it doesn't matter if it is originally labeled as sales revenue or not.

Your balance sheet assumes that sales will be equal with Kickstarter and without Kickstarter. Which is wrong. There would be more sales without Kickstarter, since Kickstarter "sells" software to those that donate. It also assumes that traditional funding from one's savings are not a tax or money from an investor does not add a "tax," which is wrong--your income has been taxed already in the past, and investors ask to share in profits. Or that Kickstarter doesn't create additional expenses that can be tax-deductible--merchandise, flying people out, adding people's voices and faces to the game, etc.

[Father_Brain]

Looks like yesterday's boost has faded pretty quickly. It's currently trending towards around $12K today, when they need to average over $39K per day for the remaining week.

[daycru]

I don't know why everyone assumes it would be better for this new team to have to work without constraints. Sometimes contraints are good. George Lucas had to work with an editor, producers, and within a budget on the first three Star Wars movies. He didn't have to answer to anybody when he made the sequels.

This is true. Our start up was pretty aimless until we met someone who will kick our ass to meet milestones.

[MrCunningham]

Looks like yesterday's boost has faded pretty quickly. It's currently trending towards around $12K today, when they need to average over $39K per day for the remaining week.

Hmm, I was expecting the David Hayter boost to last longer than a day. But it seems like they can't generate enough hype, beyond smaller interest spikes.

[Reluctant-Hero]

Upped my pledge from $10.84 to $60.84. Crossing my fingers for this one, but I don't think it'll make it. =(

[exmachina64]

Your balance sheet assumes that sales will be equal with Kickstarter and without Kickstarter. Which is wrong. There would be more sales without Kickstarter, since Kickstarter "sells" software to those that donate.

That's not necessarily true. I'd posit that successful Kickstarters actually increase sales.

Double Fine Adventure had over 87,000 backers. Those are "lost sales," sure, but without the Kickstarter money the project wouldn't exist in the first place. Double Fine is an exception, since most projects have far fewer backers. Republique is also an exception. Currently, Republique has approximately 5,000 backers and might need 10,000 total to reach $500,000. Obviously, the high profile projects we've seen intend to sell hundreds of thousands or millions of copies.

Even in the case of Republique, the additional funds Camouflaj receives would be used to improve the game, attracting more customers because of the resulting higher quality.

To say Kickstarter lowers potential sales ignores these factors.

Ultimately, a developer has to decide whether enough copies will be sold to make the project worthwhile. But thankfully, the Kickstarter funds ease the financial blow a developer would receive if their game isn't popular.

[Deadly Cyclone]

So, this thing is moving again. Was at $170k yesterday now at $234k... I wonder if the last 7 days will push this thing over the top?

[exmachina64]

It might.

[Jackpot]

You can tap on in-game cameras to "warp" into them and see the room and spaces from different points-of-view. The

Experiment 112 did this awesomely. There's a demo of it out there if people want to try.

[onlyindreams]

Everyone should up their pledges to the $50/$60 journal tier and we'd be alot closer :p

[Ignis Fatuus]

Everyone should up their pledges to the $50/$60 journal tier and we'd be alot closer :p

You're right, the average pledge is still not very high. Fuck it, I upped from $30 to $100 for the collector's addition.

[Haunted]

Experiment 112 did this awesomely. There's a demo of it out there if people want to try.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=336

internet high five

[Pachterballs]

well, the last minute swarm will push it past 500k with any luck. either way, 8-4 was pimping this; RP has friends in the industry.

[Carl]

The Hayter boost wasn't very long-lasting, was it...

[Jasper Avenue]

I'll probably up my pledge this weekend. Gotta hit that 500K

[Ignis Fatuus]

The Hayter boost wasn't very long-lasting, was it...

The Hayter boost appears to have been especially effective at raising the average pledge. There were actually more new pledges today than yesterday.



They should tweak some of the reward tiers or create a new one at the $60-80 level, something that leverages the Hayter and Hale names.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

It's gonna be tight.

[Pachterballs]

both 8-4 and weekend confirmed were pimping this. cannatta going on about AAA+ iOS game total missed the point that this KS was doomed as a AAA+ iOS game. :/ and is now multiplatform for those reasons

[Dog Problems]

I'm still hoping the iPhone case, shirt, and hoodie get shown. I'll up my pledge to those tiers depending on how nice they are.

[Ignis Fatuus]

I swear if the $10,000 tier included the opportunity to hang out with Hayter and/or Hale they would sell it out like hotcakes.

[Neuromancer]

Not even halfway with one week to go. I just don't see how they're going to do it.

[Ignis Fatuus]

Not even halfway with one week to go. I just don't see how they're going to do it.

The vast majority of their pledges came after the PC announcement last week. If they're smart about tweaking the reward tiers there might still be some hope. One $10k pledge puts a pretty significant dent into the whole. They simply haven't done enough to attract to high level pledges. I don't think any Kickstarter has reached $500k without those big donors.

If you promise a meeting with Hayter, a $10k pledge will probably be much easier to net than a hundred of the $100 pledges or a thousand of the $10 pledges.

[ArjanN]

The vast majority of their pledges came after the PC announcement last week. If they're smart about tweaking the reward tiers there might still be some hope. One $10k pledge puts a pretty significant dent into the whole. They simply haven't done enough to attract to high level pledges. I don't think any Kickstarter has reached $500k without those big donors. If you promise a meeting with Hayter, a $10k pledge will probably be much easier to net than a hundred of the $100 pledges or a thousand of the $10 pledges.

Hayter might not feel like hanging out with random people and pretending to laugh at their "I need scissors! 61" jokes.

Tweaking the tiers a bit does seem to help other kickstarters sometimes though.

[JasonUresti]

I will pledge 1000 if they setup a meeting between Alan Moore and David Hayter and film it.

[MrCunningham]

$253,028 pledged of $500,000 goal 6 days to go

Well, it's half way there. Too bad there's only 6 days left.

[Dreams-Visions]

well, they'll certainly have to reboot the Kickstarter.

Are there any metrics on the success rate of Kickstarters that have to start over with lower goals?

[HP_Wuvcraft]

well, they'll certainly have to reboot the Kickstarter. Are there any metrics on the success rate of Kickstarters that have to start over with lower goals?

That's not how this thing works.

If they hammered out a budget for the game, that's the budget for the game.

[NervousXtian]

That's not how this thing works. If they hammered out a budget for the game, that's the budget for the game.

Or the fact they already have funding, and this was just going to replace it.

Game is getting made KS or not.

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

Or the fact they already have funding, and this was just going to replace it. Game is getting made KS or not.

It feels like the KS isn't even a goal now, they are announcing more and more stuff and I'm sure it will continue past the end date.

[Goldmund]

It feels like the KS isn't even a goal now, there are announcing more and more stuff and I'm sure it will continue past the end date.

That's why I've lost a lot of the respect I once had for the guys over at Camouflaj. Yes, they made Metal Gear Solid, Halo, F.E.A.R., Kinect and other cutting edge AAA games, -- but their Kickstarter turned out to be a dishonest endeavor.

[Ignis Fatuus]

That's why I've lost a lot of the respect I once had for the guys over at Camouflaj. Yes, they made Metal Gear Solid, Halo, F.E.A.R., Kinect and other cutting edge AAA games, -- but their Kickstarter turned out to be a dishonest endeavor.

What I got from the interviews was that a lot of the offers came after the Kickstarter generated publicity, so the exercise wasn't a wash, nor would I really call it dishonest. The Banner Saga was always going to be made, just on a much different scale than it will be now. Nekro switched up their messaging towards the end and claimed that they wouldn't be able to make the game at all if they didn't cross the finish line, which directly contradicted their FAQ. I think the truth behind most of these Kickstarters is that they could be made through alternative means, just not as well and not as quickly.

Regardless, just because a team gets some offers from investors or publishers during a campaign doesn't mean they set out with the express goal of tricking people. The Kickstarter page has always made it very clear that they would be seeking venture capital. It looks like they got it, so I doubt they'll try again unless the deals fall through. We're just left to wonder what kind of control the investors will demand in return.

[onlyindreams]

That's why I've lost a lot of the respect I once had for the guys over at Camouflaj. Yes, they made Metal Gear Solid, Halo, F.E.A.R., Kinect and other cutting edge AAA games, -- but their Kickstarter turned out to be a dishonest endeavor.

It's not dishonest.. jesus

[Goldmund]

I quoted and twisted the meaning of the initial paragraph from their Kickstarter for a reason. I'm kidding around.

[border]

Yup. Creative control (hopefully) = a better game

Not necessarily. We can all think of games where talented perfectionists were given a lot of control and the result was a very protracted, often delayed final product that went way over budget and didn't really deliver. Too Human, Gran Turismo 5, Duke Nukem Forever, Battlecruiser 3000AD, and Daikatana all spring immediately to mind. I don't think Republique will necessarily fall victim to the same problems, but it's something to keep in mind with Kickstarters. Sometimes having a budget-minded publisher forcing the developer to make compromises is preferable to giving someone a huge budget with no oversight. I think the problem with publishers is that they now all force developers to give up the rights to their IPs. Then the developers are stuck making the same game forever because they aren't trusted with any other IPs or the publisher sees any new IP as too risky (see Bungie, Traveller's Tales, Infinity Ward, Bioware after the EA buyout, etc, etc). That's probably a better reason to support Kickstarter than "creative control", which is very much a double-edged sword.

[mclem]

Not necessarily. We can all think of games where talented perfectionists were given a lot of control and the result was a very protracted, often delayed final product that went way over budget and didn't really deliver. Too Human, Gran Turismo 5, Duke Nukem Forever, Battlecruiser 3000AD, and Daikatana all spring immediately to mind. I don't think Republique will necessarily fall victim to the same problems, but it's something to keep in mind with Kickstarters. Sometimes having a budget-minded publisher forcing the developer to make compromises is preferable to giving someone a huge budget with no oversight.

Except in principle with Kickstarter the budget is *very* fixed. It's a sum of money, and that's it. You can't very easily go back to the well with cap in hand like you can with a real publisher. The onus is on the dev to budget the project extremely carefully. In turn, of course, that's another thing backers should consider when deciding on how much risk they want to put into a project.

In short: the developers have a budget-minded *reality*, for want of a better word. The 'oversight' comes from the fact that they will run out of money. You can't go overbudget if there's no source for more money.

I'd say you do have a point in one respect, though, and it's something backers should bear in mind: the danger of a kickstarter project setting a funding goal that's insufficient for the development they're intending to do. That's going to be tricky for backers, and I do think that *that* is the direction most "successful kickstarter, failed/disappointing project" problems will come from.

[CarbonatedFalcon]

I swear if the $10,000 tier included the opportunity to hang out with Hayter and/or Hale they would sell it out like hotcakes.

I don't know what you'd put it at, but they should have offered Hayter/Hale voicemails.

FemShep as my voicemail? Sure!

[B_Rik_Schitthaus]

I don't know what you'd put it at, but they should have offered Hayter/Hale voicemails. FemShep as my voicemail? Sure!

Are voicemails still a thing?

[Zeouterlimits]

I wonder if the game'll be made but all the supplemental stuff like the books won't be happening.

[trinest]

It's gonna be tight.

Looking at the trending prediction its not going to make it.

[exmachina64]

Are voicemails still a thing?

Maybe? People can still set them up for cell phones.

Looking at the trending prediction its not going to make it.

True, but Kicktraq's not a good predictor.

[DXPett1]

I upped my pledge from the $50 INTELLIGENTSIA EDITION to the $100 COLLECTOR'S EDITION. I do hope KS campaign goes through. Stuff the negative nancy's around these parts

[lockload]

The main mistake they made was thinking enough people would invest in an ios game at pc game prices

Ive backed it for $30 pc version

[HadesGigas]

Did they show what the posters/shirts/hoodies look like anywhere? Don't see anything on the main page about it. Can't imagine too many people dropping hundreds of dollars to get something like that without having some idea what it looks like.