[Chinner]

This looks interesting. $10 does seem a bit expensive but I'll probably donate anyway.

how is this game too expensive?

[LiK]

how is this game too expensive?

cuz all iOS games should be 99¢ or free.

[CrunchinJelly]

This is up against a few things. It's on iOS New IP Unproven Dev Mid 2013 Unclear on transparancy / Story for donors to follow during dev (especially with such a long dev time) Fingers crossed for them. I think clearing up the dev story with a monthly doc episoude at a $15 donation would help a tonne. (along with, early access, beta, tech demo build access).

Agree with all of this, plus the game will be 99c after a few weeks on the app store anyway and I'm not subsidising a game like that.

They should try and get proper investors, this seems like a cynical kickstarter.

[Zeouterlimits]

how is this game too expensive?

Precedence. Outside of their comfort zone. Could be the same for the general public on release too.

[Franklinator]

how is this game too expensive?

$10 is usually too expensive for me, I should have said. I tend to not finish many games on iOS for whatever reason, so I try to not pay a lot for them if I can help it.

But $10 is a good price for people who aren't like me, I think.

[Goldmund]

In the past, you'd get a share of the profits of the company you helped funding. These days, you get an iOS game and some related paraphernalia. It's the age of Kickstarter start-ups.

[Father_Brain]

That's a really risky budget for the platform. But this sounds like a game I'd be interested in playing, so I've put in my $10.

[boingball]

down for $10 on it. Though I am not sure this qualifies as an AAA title.

[The_Darkest_Red]

In the past, you'd get a share of the profits of the company you helped funding. These days, you get an iOS game and some related paraphernalia. It's the age of Kickstarter start-ups.

The stock market is still around, you know. If you want the hope of some kind of return on investment besides what's being offered here than go throw your money at ATVI or something.

[Omikaru]

I can see why publishers were reluctant to jump on with this, since this goes against everything they're familiar with, and most of them only like to chase bandwagons and copy each other.

For starters, it's on iOS, and everyone knows that's not a real platform for more mature games where muscle men grunt and swear a lot in a testosterone-filled slaughterhouse. On that note, it even has the gall to have a female protagonist; that's a hard sell in their eyes. Going even further, the protagonist isn't wearing a scantily-clad outfit, or a skin tight catsuit. Alas, she's dressed in robes so we'll not get an emphasis on her curves; marketing won't like that. It also doesn't have direct control, and has no shooting in it, so they'll believe that most players won't be interested and will put it down in seconds. At least, that's what the kind of people they pay to focus test their games tell them. Plus, Camouflaj hasn't even hinted at a DLC, microtransaction or consumables roadmap, which means if its sales are underwhelming they won't be able to gouge the core player base.

Funnily enough, I think those (and many more besides) are exactly the reasons why I'm excited for this game! I've already backed the project, and I hope you guys can raise the amount necessary (and lots more besides). The game looks amazing.

In the past, you'd get a share of the profits of the company you helped funding. These days, you get an iOS game and some related paraphernalia. It's the age of Kickstarter start-ups.

Kickstarter is more about sidestepping the big companies who tell everyone what does and doesn't sell. So instead of sitting there, wondering why a certain type of game isn't out, you can actually fund development of that game yourself. It's not about investing for profit, it's about taking the edge off of a risky venture and getting a game out of it.

If you want to invest for profit, I'm sure you can speak to Ryan privately and tell him how much you're willing to fund in that respect and he can decide whether he wants your money. :P

[EXGN]

In the past, you'd get a share of the profits of the company you helped funding. These days, you get an iOS game and some related paraphernalia. It's the age of Kickstarter start-ups.

There's a difference between investing in a company and funding a specific project.

[Gowans]

It's not all bad news tho, they have a lot going for themselves.

A great demo reel,
Highly Polished visuals,
A unique game idea,
People who seem incredibly passionate,
Pushing a massively popular platform (tho iPad 1 might hurt it)
A much liked lead designer,
A ambitious goal and a realistic time frame.

[Pachterballs]

how is this game too expensive?

Infinty blade2, iOS king of the hill is only $7.50

[The_Darkest_Red]

Infinty blade2, iOS king of the hill is only $7.50

The "king of the hill" doesn't generally hold the position forever. That sure would be a boring Halo gametype otherwise, you know?

[hank_tree]

Pushing a massively popular platform (tho iPad 1 might hurt it).

What do you mean by this? How will supporting iPad 1 hurt it?

[Goldmund]

The stock market is still around, you know. If you want the hope of some kind of return on investment besides what's being offered here than go throw your money at ATVI or something.

No need to get defensive.

[...] Kickstarter is more about sidestepping the big companies who tell everyone what does and doesn't sell. So instead of sitting there, wondering why a certain type of game isn't out, you can actually fund development of that game yourself. It's not about investing for profit, it's about taking the edge off of a risky venture and getting a game out of it. If you want to invest for profit, I'm sure you can speak to Ryan privately and tell him how much you're willing to fund in that respect and he can decide whether he wants your money. :P

I'll speak to his people.

There's a difference between investing in a company and funding a specific project.

That's what I was getting at. The edges are blurred here.

[Cartman86]

Put in $25.84 because I like what Ryan has had to say over the years and this project looks interesting. I likely won't have a device to play it on, so I hope it gets enough money for it to be worth porting to Android devices. Who knows though. If the game is amazing maybe I'll just get a touch by next June.

[dank0723]

This looks interesting. $10 does seem a bit expensive but I'll probably donate anyway.

$10 seems expensive seriously? These guys are going all out and I really hope it pays off. Sent this around the office to hopefully get more backers! $50

[chickdigger802]

Reminds me of half life 2 for some reason.

I do wonder how elaborate the interactions and what not will be. Night trap anyone?

I would definitely love to see some elaborate ghost trick rube goldberg style traps... but I guess this game is more stealth than trying to goof the mooks.

The one thing they really need to hit is animations.

[The_Darkest_Red]

No need to get defensive.

Sorry about that, I think the cynicism in this thread is starting to get to me a little.

I just feel like some people are missing the point here. Is this a somewhat risky project for a number of factors? Absolutely, and that's probably the main reason why it wasn't picked up by a publisher. Obviously these guys are attempting to do something that is unusual and almost entirely unprecedented (save a few rare exceptions like the Infinity Blade games). I think we all realize this. Even more, it's fairly obvious to me that Ryan understands the risk that he's taking, but if people in the industry aren't willing to take risks once in awhile then how can we expect to ever see anything new?

As far as the complaints regarding some type of financial benefit to reward you for your investment; again, I think you're missing the point. I think Omikaru said this the best a few posts up but I'll reiterate --- the point of Kickstarter is to give games a chance that otherwise wouldn't have one. That's what you're investing in, and the prize is simply the ability to play those games (and whatever other goodies they might decide to sprinkle in). This isn't so much an investment as it is a donation, and it's for a specific project. If it doesn't interest you then there is of course an easy solution --- don't back the project and spend your money on something else.

Maybe it's just me but I personally don't understand the negativity in this thread.

[chickdigger802]

$10 down.

[OldmanAndroid]

this looks amazing

Kind of a punch in the gut though...ive been working a on a surveillance game myself for a while now. More of a "paranormal activity" type game, trying to catch footage of ghosts in a single dark house, upgrading cameras, using a camera-mounted RC vehicle, etc. Ive been working on the proof of concept using Unity for about 4 weeks now. Ah well.

Do we know yet how much control we have over the main character?

[Chinner]

this looks amazing Kind of a punch in the gut though...ive been working a on a surveillance game myself for a while now. More of a "paranormal activity" type game, trying to catch footage of ghosts in a single dark house, upgrading cameras, using a camera-mounted RC vehicle, etc. Ive been working on the proof of concept using Unity for about 4 weeks now. Ah well. Do we know yet how much control we have over the main character?

not really a punch to a gut at all. keep making your game bro.

[Gowans]

What do you mean by this? How will supporting iPad 1 hurt it?

It may limit what they can do, a few games already are iPad 2 only, in 2013 who knows.

[EternalGamer]

The general reaction in this thread seems like the one to that Monkey Paw PSP kickstarter.

The big difference to me is that that game and kickstarter concept seems utterly shity. This game and concept seems good.

Perhaps bigger kickstarter budgets only work with nostalgic properties, though.

[Goldmund]

Sorry about that, I think the cynicism in this thread is starting to get to me a little. I just feel like some people are missing the point here. Is this a somewhat risky project for a number of factors? Absolutely, and that's probably the main reason why it wasn't picked up by a publisher. Obviously these guys are attempting to do something that is unusual and almost entirely unprecedented (save a few rare exceptions like the Infinity Blade games). I think we all realize this. Even more, it's fairly obvious to me that Ryan understands the risk that he's taking, but if people in the industry aren't willing to take risks once in awhile then how can we expect to ever see anything new? As far as the complaints regarding some type of financial benefit to reward you for your investment; again, I think you're missing the point. I think Omikaru said this the best a few posts up but I'll reiterate --- the point of Kickstarter is to give games a chance that otherwise wouldn't have one. That's what you're investing in, and the prize is simply the ability to play those games (and whatever other goodies they might decide to sprinkle in). This isn't so much an investment as it is a donation, and it's for a specific project. If it doesn't interest you then there is of course an easy solution --- don't back the project and spend your money on something else. Maybe it's just me but I personally don't understand the negativity in this thread.

Don't get me wrong. I'm for this project. And, yes, obviously this isn't something the antiquated developer-publisher relationship could bear and support. We'd be throwing Hope's head at totalitarian strongholds, eventually, after it has passed through all the necessary hands.

The financial argument was put forth in jest, but this is an odd twist to the whole Kickstarter business few people realize. We're still effectively funding businesses, but the profit we're eyeing is a product's existence, not its profitability. That's really weird.

[OldmanAndroid]

not really a punch to a gut at all. keep making your game bro.

Ya for sure, too invested in terms of game design to want to back out now. That opening voice in the trailer, and making the player part of the story were pretty fleshed out aspects of my current project. Just a bummer to feel like a clone after spending so long trying to come up with something original.

[The_Darkest_Red]

Don't get me wrong. I'm for this project. And, yes, obviously this isn't something the antiquated developer-publisher relationship could bear and support. We'd be throwing Hope's head at totalitarian strongholds, eventually, after it has passed through all the necessary hands. The financial argument was put forth in jest, but this is an odd twist to the whole Kickstarter business few people realize. We're still effectively funding businesses, but the profit we're eyeing is a product's existence, not its profitability. That's really weird.

Okay, when you put it look that it sounds a lot more reasonable, and I definitely see where you're coming from. It's a strange new territory that we're delving into, and that's one of the reasons why I'm extremely hesitant to back a kickstarter unless I see at least a few very good reasons to do so.

Sorry for being snappy earlier.

[Haunted]

I do admit the reward tiers aren't that great. I understand these aren't there to give value for money (especially past a certain point e.g. >$500), but some of the "lower" reward tiers seem pretty empty as well.

LE ($100) +
a poster for $50
then a shirt for $50
then a hoody for $50

and then just 250 dollars more to get a signed poster. C'mon guys.

[EXGN]

... This is an odd twist to the whole Kickstarter business few people realize. We're still effectively funding businesses, but the profit we're eyeing is a product's existence, not its profitability. That's really weird.

If you invest money into a company and that company does well, then yes you profit. However, if it bombs, you lose that money and you don't get any other perks (such as a product).

The worst that happens here is that you get a product that didn't meet your expectations. You paid $10 for a product and you will get that product, there is no questioning that.

I see it more as paying for a service rather than investing in a business.

[Salaadin]

this looks amazing Kind of a punch in the gut though...ive been working a on a surveillance game myself for a while now. More of a "paranormal activity" type game, trying to catch footage of ghosts in a single dark house, upgrading cameras, using a camera-mounted RC vehicle, etc. Ive been working on the proof of concept using Unity for about 4 weeks now. Ah well. Do we know yet how much control we have over the main character?

I think theres very little control over the main character. Its more of us directing her what to do rather than actually making her do it.

[The_Darkest_Red]

The worst that happens here is that you get a product that didn't meet your expectations. You paid $10 for a product and you will get that product, there is no questioning that.

Do we know this for sure, though? What happens when one of these funded projects doesn't make it?

[Neuromancer]

this looks amazing Kind of a punch in the gut though...ive been working a on a surveillance game myself for a while now. More of a "paranormal activity" type game, trying to catch footage of ghosts in a single dark house, upgrading cameras, using a camera-mounted RC vehicle, etc. Ive been working on the proof of concept using Unity for about 4 weeks now. Ah well. Do we know yet how much control we have over the main character?

That sounds awesome.

[Omikaru]

We're still effectively funding businesses, but the profit we're eyeing is a product's existence, not its profitability. That's really weird.

Well not really, we're funding this specific project. All the money raised, whether it's $500,000, or even more than that, should be spent on this one game and this game alone. It's not like we're funding the business to do what it wants. They've had to pitch the game to us in a not-so-dissimilar fashion as I'd be pitched a game on Steam or the App Store: a trailer, a description, some screenshots, and a listed price telling me what I'm going to get for my money. Short of a demo, it's pretty standard fare, right?

I see it as being more akin to buying something before it's out. I don't see the relationship as being that different from me buying it after release. My money is still going towards the game's development, just not retroactively in the form of paying off debts or through a publisher recouping its investment, or whatever. Instead, I'm putting my money upfront as an act of faith (which most purchases of games are anyway), and hoping I get a good product. Just because it isn't made yet doesn't really matter to me.

Now as for those people funding over $10,000? Well yeah, that seems like a crazy thing to me, especially if they're not investing in it with the hopes of seeing a return. But hey, if someone wants to have dinner with the Camouflaj guys for $10k, it's their money. They know what they're paying for.

[soultron]

I don't even own an iDevice but I'm going to pitch money to this. This is something that needs to happen. Quality games at real prices. I want to do away with the $0.99 precedent because I feel it limits the future when we go DD-only.

The game also looks great. Is there anywhere where the title track used in the KS trailer can be found and/or purchased? I'd love to listen to it in its entirety.

[Haunted]

this looks amazing Kind of a punch in the gut though...ive been working a on a surveillance game myself for a while now. More of a "paranormal activity" type game, trying to catch footage of ghosts in a single dark house, upgrading cameras, using a camera-mounted RC vehicle, etc. Ive been working on the proof of concept using Unity for about 4 weeks now. Ah well. Do we know yet how much control we have over the main character?

The premise of Republique and your proof of concept sounds similar to Experience 112, I really liked how unique the idea of that game was.

An Adventure game solely controlled and viewed through security cameras on an abandoned ship. You had to solve puzzles and redirect power to be able to navigate the girl through various parts of the ship and discover what went wrong. Came out in 2008, I think.

[Reluctant-Hero]

Threw $10 down. Game looks awesome and I've been digging Payton's design sensibilities since the KojiPro podcasts.

I really hope the $500k goal is reached.

[Uriah]

This may have been asked before, but I though Apple and Google were strict about giving away free copies of games that can be purchased through the app store. I'm pretty sure I read something similiar on another kickstarter page where they said they had to give the PC version and not the mobile one. I assume it's because they don't get a cut of the kickstarter money.

[Crazymoogle]

This may have been asked before, but I though Apple and Google were strict about giving away free copies of games that can be purchased through the app store. I'm pretty sure I read something similiar on another kickstarter page where they said they had to give the PC version and not the mobile one. I assume it's because they don't get a cut of the kickstarter money.

They can just gift copies instead. Apple gets paid that way.

[dark10x]

Infinty blade2, iOS king of the hill is only $7.50

Epic can afford that.

You really seem to be down on this game and it's kind of bothering me.

[OldmanAndroid]

The premise of Republique and your proof of concept sounds similar to Experience 112, I really liked how unique the idea of that game was. An Adventure game solely controlled and viewed through security cameras on an abandoned ship. You had to solve puzzles and redirect power to be able to navigate the girl through various parts of the ship and discover what went wrong. Came out in 2008, I think.

oh wow, this looks amazing. I'm gonna have to check it out, thanks!

[Jay-B]

I'm really interested in this type of game, but unfortunately I don't have any iOS device to play it on right now :/ I'm still hoping it'll reach its goal, as Payton seems well intentioned, but this might have been a much easier sell for many kickstarting gamers on PC/Mac.

[Dog Problems]

I do admit the reward tiers aren't that great. I understand these aren't there to give value for money (especially past a certain point e.g. >$500), but some of the "lower" reward tiers seem pretty empty as well. LE ($100) + a poster for $50 then a shirt for $50 then a hoody for $50 and then just 250 dollars more to get a signed poster. C'mon guys.

I think the journal at $50 is great, but going up $25 just for an iPhone case seems odd. Though it gets better, in my eyes, at $100 for that collector's book that holds everything.

[hank_tree]

It may limit what they can do, a few games already are iPad 2 only, in 2013 who knows.

It might hurt the final product I guess. I can't see it having much of an impact on the Kickstarter itself though.

[Lime]

Yeah, I'm not going to fund a high-budget, cutscene-esque, animations-heavy iOS game.

[Rez]

I'm not sure I'm totally onboard with everything I've seen and been pitched so far. It's all too pie-in-the-sky for me. Hiring mo-cap teams for an iPad game, before you've even been fully funded, seems wildly irresponsible. It rubs me the wrong way.

[D4Danger]

It's disappointing they've been so set on iOS and don't seem to be open to creating a version for any other platform. The trailer has a Unity logo, I'm not sure if it's running on Unity or what but I'd support this if it wasn't just an iOS game.

[Crazymoogle]

I'm not sure I'm totally onboard with everything I've seen and been pitched so far. It's all too pie-in-the-sky for me. Hiring mo-cap teams for an iPad game, before you've even been fully funded, seems wildly irresponsible. It rubs me the wrong way.

How so?

If there's one thing Ryan is clearly prepped to do from his time at KojiPro, it's that he knows the right people to work with right off the bat. He knows what Logan can do. He has the experience to deal with the right voice acting setups, he knows enough about mocap to work with the right companies and people.

Basically, he's doing shit right the first time.

I get the impression from the months they've already spent that this was the goal: to build the game they want, build it fast, and deal with the financial fallout after. Not spent 6 months hand keyframing and reinventing the wheel because it's cheaper and they're not sure if a publisher will fall into place along the way. Clearly he has already spent significant money getting this off the ground, convincing others to work with him (particularly external companies, which obviously don't work pro bono)

If anything this gives me *more* confidence because Camouflaj is showing clear preparation to do what they say: make their take on an AAA game at a fraction of the cost and time normally required, without cutting the usual corners you'd see on an iOS project.

[ArjanN]

2 million 2000000 /12/5 each member of the team was on $33333/month?

Let's say direct labor costs probably would have been in the $500-750k range, plus whatever they spent on rendering farm time or other non-labor costs = 1 to 2 million.

[D4Danger]

Let's say direct labor costs probably would have been in the $500-750k range, plus whatever they spent on rendering farm time or other non-labor costs = 1 to 2 million.

now you have to wonder if a project designed for iOS, where $.99 is king, should have a budget of 1-2 million to begin with.

maybe the time is right for it, I honestly wouldn't know, but $500k is way way way more than I thought they were going to ask for.