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Xun
Member
(05-06-2012, 11:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by Suairyu

Lesser Evil - Masturbation (without porn or porn fantasy)

So would this be back to square one then?
Suairyu
Banned
(05-06-2012, 11:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by Xun

So would this be back to square one then?

I don't believe in square one unless you fully relapse back into your old ways. Fall off the wagon, jump straight back on. Add an extra 5 or 10 days to the target amount.
Gazzawa
Member
(05-06-2012, 01:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jintor

Day Six and keeping busy, watching fighting game streams and studying to avoid meh thoughts.

Also day 6. Was tough getting to sleep last night. going H*A*M at the gym today. Gonna stay up late skyping too.
This would be a whole lot easier without the internet 4 sho.
PS3GamerKyle
Member
(05-06-2012, 03:31 PM)
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last night had a date, and yesterday was also my first day of no fapping. When we made it home we had an intense make out sesh for like an hour. Are these related? YES THEY ARE.

USE THIS AS INSPIRATION, BOYS.

Day 2
FlyingTeacup
Member
(05-06-2012, 03:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by PS3GamerKyle

.

dude... your avatar creeps me out....
sebajuNujabes
Member
(05-06-2012, 05:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by GloveSlap

Are you guys tossing out your porn stash as well? I threw away a bunch of it but I couldn't bring myself to toss the best stuff. Maybe ill just pack away whats left so it isn't easy to get to.

Deleted my whole stash as well as all the sexy gifs and pictures I had. Having those around would be too tempting especially this early on.

Originally Posted by Johnny Cage In The Shower

Which brings to this app: http://tinyurl.com/cecxbvm

If you guys use iGoogle etc it very motivational/encouraging to see your days count up , it becomes more like a game.

I even recommend telling your close friends about it, joke about it, just so you are not alone on it an feel like there's more at stake. Having said that, I haven't had the balls (no pun intended) to tell my two friends that I cracked yet! krameri'mout.gif

Thanks for the tip; that app has been really helpful because I see my progress every time I turn on my laptop.
BeesEight
Member
(05-06-2012, 06:34 PM)
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Pseudoscience and You!

Why Gary Wilson is Full of Shit and Why You Shouldn't Trust Talks Beside Bookcases

For this little deconstruction, I'll be using wikipedia as my source. Nothing fancy or complex because I am both lazy and you really don't need much else to debunk the science behind the No Fap Challenge.

The Great Pornography Experiment is Gary Wilson's cute little title for a no masturbation challenge based on the premise of widespread pornography addiction afflicting our modern population. Mr. Wilson suggests that this pandemic has gone unnoticed by society at large, but he is here on his white stallion to save us all from the dreaded Internet. Too bad he's promoting nothing by shoddy science, misinterpreted results and downright intellectually dishonest conclusions.

But why is he so wrong?

Addiction

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) does not use the term addiction at all. Why is this relevant? For those that do not known, the DSM is the standard diagnostic tool used in the classification of mental disorders. It is used in the United States and abroad, though if you're situated in Europe, the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ISD) is probably your thing. Either way, neither recognizes addiction as a mental disorder but, instead, classify it as Substance Abuse.

Substance Abuse

“When an individual persists in use of alcohol or other drugs despite problems related to use of the substance, substance dependence may be diagnosed. Compulsive and repetitive use may result in tolerance to the effect of the drug and withdrawal symptoms when use is reduced or stopped. This, along with Substance Abuse are considered Substance Use Disorders....” - DSM-IV

A quick and dirty summary for substance dependency is that when you take a drug, it will affect the neuropathways in your body, typically by stimulating the production of certain neurotransmitters. Your body is striving for a state of equilibrium so artificially stimulating these pathways with an outside source will cause your body to produce less on its own to compensate. Thus, when you stop taking the drug, your body is producing at a deficit and you have withdrawal symptoms. This is also why you need to increase the drug in order to attain the same level of high which is known as tolerance.

Why does this not apply with masturbation? Because you are not artificially enhancing the release of dopamine in your body. Your body is able to regulate it naturally, thus lowering your libido from constant masturbation whether you wish to engage with more or seek sex with another individual. This is why you can abstain from masturbation for whatever time you want and you'll “get better.”

Why won't this work with substance dependency? Withdrawal. When a substance abuser withholds their drug, they go through physical symptoms that can make it impossible to function on a day to day basis. They need the drug in order for their body to operate. When you abstain from masturbating and porn... you get horny. These are not the same.

But, why am I so angry at Gary Wilson? Perhaps he is just mistaken about the subject or using a new definition of addiction (to be addressed later).

Alas, no. Gary Wilson is a terrible person and here is why:

Using Gary's own words: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zif0_60b3WU

“Mother Nature likes to keep a male fertilizing willing females as long as any new ones are around. Take a look at these sheep.”

Hold your horses there old chap. Firstly, 'mother nature' is not a scientifically meaningful statement. If you are trying to suggest that all animals follow this reproductive schema, then boy do I have some news for you. Emperor penguins are monogamous (at least during mating season). Some insects have an incredibly complex hierarchical structure based around a single egg laying female. So no, Gary, Mother Nature isn't trying to get a male boning every pretty thing with boobs and a tempting pair of thighs. You can not compare behaviours across species and hope to have a scientifically sound conclusion drawn about humans because physiologically we are all different. That is why drug research has to work its way through multiple species before it can receive certification for human testing before it can be considered sound for general use. We don't hibernate, we don't have mating seasons and your observations of other animals "binging mechanisms" is woefully misleading.

“Without the Coolidge effect, there would be no Internet porn.”

Porn stashes seem to say otherwise, Mr. Wilson. I think you're forgetting that the Coolidge effect is temporary in that the refractory period will end even with the same partner. Also, in human males, the Coolidge effect is attributed solely to the inability for a male to engage in sex. It does not refer to a decrease in interest.

“Arousal addiction symptoms are easily associated with this long list of terrifying mental disorders.”

Mr. Wilson, please take a course that examines addiction. You will find that substance abuse has a high co-morbidity with a host of other psychological problems. If you're going to try and suggest that addiction causes these other disorders then I hope you have some research to back that up. Oh wait, you don't? Quelle surprise.

“This is also why 4 out of 5 Americans are overweight and about half of those are obese. That is, addicted to food. In contrast to natural rewards, drugs such as alcohol and cocaine will only hook about ten to fifteen percent of users whether they're humans or animals.”

Holy fuck! This is actual outright dishonesty. Any cursory glance into the subject demonstrates that the weight issue in America IS NOT attributed to food addiction. In fact, food addiction isn't even a thing. The closest recognized condition is called Compulsive Overeating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_addiction) and it is not found in four out of five Americans. In fact, it is about as prevalent as any other addiction. A quick google search shows a study that finds 1% of women in the United States have a binge-eating disorder and 30% of women seeking treatment for obesity suffer the the disorder (http://www.pale-reflections.com/ed_stats.asp).

So, no - “natural rewards” are not more addictive than drugs. No one has tried to argue this because it is factually wrong.

“I apologize for filling up this slide on brain studies for Internet addiction. Just notice the dates.”

Yes, let's notice the dates. The earliest is in 2010 with the vast majority published in 2011. Why is that? Well, the American Society of Addiction Medicine released a new definition of addiction that is not accepted by the DSM or ISD. This appears to be where Mr. Wilson gets his definition. However, this is certainly not a widely accepted and furthermore, it's criteria for Internet addiction only shows a prevalence rate of about 10%. Which, oddly enough, is the same for cocaine. This is hardly the widespread phenomenon that Mr. Wilson is purporting AND their treatment of the disorder varies quite wildly from Mr. Wilson's abstinence program. So even if we accept this premise, there is still something very wrong with Mr. Wilson's assertions. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_addiction)

“Here's a group on reddit.com... Fapping is slang for solo sex but what they really mean is giving up porn.”

Here's the thing, it's not the porn that's the issue but the excessive masturbation. Oddly enough, that's not Mr. Wilson's point. If you look at porn but never masturbate, you will get the EXACT same results as people that don't look at porn and don't masturbate. And this is obvious, since by abstaining from masturbating, you're building up testosterone in your system. Testosterone has a well documented effect of increasing libido, self-confidence and the whole list of positive effects that Mr. Wilson attributes to abstaining from porn.

“I'd like to conclude with a wish.”

So would I Mr. Wilson. I wish that people who adopt scientific rhetoric actually hold themselves to scientific rigour and methodology. Instead of standing by a bookshelf, or perhaps throwing on a lab coat, how about you read some studies next time and educate yourself on the topic. Maybe, just maybe, we can cut down on the bullshit.

Disclaimer - Please note that if I did not address something in his speech it was not because it was accurate but because I got tired of looking up all his nonsense and demonstrating its wrong. There's actually very little in his whole spiel that is correct. Also note I didn't even look at the positive effects of masturbating which is correlated with a decrease in prostate cancer and other effects.
LabouredSubterfuge
Member
(05-06-2012, 06:36 PM)
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I'm glad someone said it. This thread is fucking weird.
Desperado
Member
(05-06-2012, 06:42 PM)
So should I fap or not fap?! I'm at day 13. TELL ME HOW TO LIVE MY LIFE
Atramental
Banned
(05-06-2012, 06:44 PM)
Uh oh.
Pakkidis
Member
(05-06-2012, 06:44 PM)
Although you make a lot of good points,I take exception to this:

Here's the thing, it's not the porn that's the issue but the excessive masturbation. Oddly enough, that's not Mr. Wilson's point. If you look at porn but never masturbate, you will get the EXACT same results as people that don't look at porn and don't masturbate. And this is obvious, since by abstaining from masturbating, you're building up testosterone in your system. Testosterone has a well documented effect of increasing libido, self-confidence and the whole list of positive effects that Mr. Wilson attributes to abstaining from porn.

I don't agree with this at all. I believe watching porn does release certain chemicals in the brain unless of course you have scientific studies that say otherwise.
BeesEight
Member
(05-06-2012, 06:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by Pakkidis

I don't agree with this at all. I believe watching porn does release certain chemicals in the brain unless of course you have scientific studies that say otherwise.

Of course it does. It stimulates your libido and if you find it attractive then you'll probably get an erection (which would suggest a release of adrenaline since your heart rate is increasing).

You can't be addicted to this though. But here, since you're already taking part in the challenge, try this: continue to not masturbate but take a look at pornographic images from time to time. See if you lose whatever gains you've got from abstaining without porn so far.
Zeouterlimits
Member
(05-06-2012, 06:49 PM)
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*shrugs* I never had any investment in the Talk or Wilson - I've never watched it.

I just think it would be healthy to have a better control over these urges and self direct myself better rather than turning to porn and masturbation so easily.
Ra1den
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(05-06-2012, 06:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by BeesEight


If you look at porn but never masturbate, you will get the EXACT same results as people that don't look at porn and don't masturbate.

And who does this? You watch porn for the sake of masturbating. There is no other reason. You also ignored a number of the other drawbacks porn viewing has, and instead tried to nitpick and find fault with some technicalities in his definitions. Unimpressive.
BeesEight
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(05-06-2012, 06:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zeouterlimits

*shrugs* I never had any investment in the Talk or Wilson - I've never watched it.

I just think it would be healthy to have a better control over these urges and self direct myself better rather than turning to porn and masturbation so easily.

Agreed. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I'm still participating in this challenge. Personally, I found that I was masturbating more out of habit than anything else and this is mostly an exercise to cut down on that habit.

But, sexual activity is healthy for you. There are studies on it, and the benefits of masturbation itself. I'm not entirely sure what Gary Wilson's angle is on this since when I tried to google his credentials I couldn't find any. I'm not sure if he's anti-porn advocate or if he's anti-masturbation but I suspect from his talk he's mostly just against the perceived evils of pornography.

Originally Posted by Ra1den

And who does this? You watch porn for the sake of masturbating. There is no other reason. You also ignored a number of the other drawbacks porn viewing has, and instead tried to nitpick and find fault with some technicalities in his definitions. Unimpressive.

Errr... I'm not sure undermining his entire premise is nitpicking, but sure. What other drawbacks are there for pornography? The only one I can think of is the perceived distortions of the role and image of women but there aren't any scientific experiments on that to my knowledge (perhaps some sociology papers but given the lack of reference to them in the talks, I suspect there aren't any).
Last edited by BeesEight; 05-06-2012 at 07:02 PM.
filler
Banned
(05-06-2012, 06:58 PM)
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I've gone about a week and a half with no porn/masturbation and my appreciation for sex has increased about ten fold. Every day is a struggle though, I feel like Pookie in New Jack City.
Barbacoatl
Banned
(05-06-2012, 07:06 PM)
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BeesEight, you can dissect the intricacies and falacies of the study, I will keep improving my life by using my time in a more meaningful way. Since I stopped pmo I experienced a chain reaction. Built up the confidence to seek help externally for my depression. Started therapy with a honest psychiatrist who doesn't fear telling me how it is. Took his advice, stopped smoking weed and drinking, which led me to stop smoking cigarettes. I'm eating better, sleeping better, exercising, working harder. I have more money in my pockets. I plan on joining a support group for alcoholics, neurotics, drug addicts. This was unthinkable for myself two months ago. I would have laughed my ass off at the notion, being the cynical bastard that I still am. It's been rough, I'm constantly battling with my hedonistic self; just a week ago I gave in to my lustful gluttony after 21 days. But here I am, another week going strong.

I was all about selfish pleasure, but feeling a perpetual void that didn't let me truly enjoy myself. I don't attribute all of this to nofap, at all. But I recognize it has helped me getting the machine unclogged, so to say. I think this is about choice. Are you content with the way you're living your life? is a question that led me to ask a lot of other questions about MY life. We all carry our own crux as they say, but I honestly feel like it's worth making the introspection and the sacrifices needed to turn the cards around.

This is all of course my own experience, and I don't pretend to make a living example out of myself for others. This is a daily, personal struggle, life. If you're happy the way it is, more power to you. In my case, my gut told me something needed to change. I'm just thankful there are places like gaf and nofap where much needed support can be found. Maybe it's all psychological, maybe the great porn experiment is a sham. Maybe porn is healthy and the more you consume the happier you'll feel. That wasn't the case for me.
Ra1den
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(05-06-2012, 07:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by BeesEight




Errr... I'm not sure undermining his entire premise is nitpicking, but sure. What other drawbacks are there for pornography? The only one I can think of is the perceived distortions of the role and image of women but there aren't any scientific experiments on that to my knowledge (perhaps some sociology papers but given the lack of reference to them in the talks, I suspect there aren't any).

I don't see how you undermined his point at all. His main point is that porn(which means masturbating to porn, since there is no other reason to watch porn) is leading to weakened sexual performance in men(e.g. erectile dysfunction or earlier phases of it). Nothing you mentioned undermined this in any way.

Unless you are really postulating that a good number of people watch porn for the plot, with no intention of masturbating?

I may also point out that we need to exercise common sense and consult our own experiences and not just blindly grasp for scientific studies all the time. Anybody who has gone without porn/masturbation for significant periods can attest to the benefits it offers.
Last edited by Ra1den; 05-06-2012 at 07:21 PM.
GloveSlap
Member
(05-06-2012, 07:22 PM)
Its all about desensitization, both mentally and physically. It doesn't really matter how you define it, it is a problem with porn.
Ra1den
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(05-06-2012, 07:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by GloveSlap

Its all about desensitization, both mentally and physically. It doesn't really matter how you define it, it is a problem with porn.

Exactly. Whether "addiction" is the best word to use is a moot point. It is obvious what he means.
MNC
(05-06-2012, 07:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Suairyu

As does cutting down on sodas, fast-foods and shit with additives.

Eat clean for a week, pineapple, eggs and some zinc and you'll be making sweet, sweet milkshake by the gallon.

Combine with the 90 day plan to have so much swag you'll have a hoard of hunnies after you.

How fast does the taste change if you change your food diet?
Zeouterlimits
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(05-06-2012, 07:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by BeesEight

Agreed. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I'm still participating in this challenge. Personally, I found that I was masturbating more out of habit than anything else and this is mostly an exercise to cut down on that habit.

But, sexual activity is healthy for you. There are studies on it, and the benefits of masturbation itself. I'm not entirely sure what Gary Wilson's angle is on this since when I tried to google his credentials I couldn't find any. I'm not sure if he's anti-porn advocate or if he's anti-masturbation but I suspect from his talk he's mostly just against the perceived evils of pornography.

Oh I completely agree. Teasing myself with this and my girlfriend (who's been in Japan for a few months) has been great, and this is another layer of self-improvement before I get to be with her again in July.
BeesEight
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(05-06-2012, 07:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Trip Warhawkins

BeesEight, you can dissect the intricacies and falacies of the study, I will keep improving my life by using my time in a more meaningful way. Since I stopped pmo I experienced a chain reaction. Built up the confidence to seek help externally for my depression. Started therapy with a honest psychiatrist who doesn't fear telling me how it is. Took his advice, stopped smoking weed and drinking, which led me to stop smoking cigarettes. I'm eating better, sleeping better, exercising, working harder. I have more money in my pockets. I plan on joining a support group for alcoholics, neurotics, drug addicts. This was unthinkable for myself two months ago. I would have laughed my ass off at the notion, being the cynical bastard that I still am. It's been rough, I'm constantly battling with my hedonistic self; just a week ago I gave in to my lustful gluttony after 21 days. But here I am, another week going strong.

Hey dude, congratulations! What you've done is really, really good and all the power to you. It sounded like this really started a complete overhaul of your life and that's something you should feel great about. Keep up the good work!

I also hope that you keep this up. Giving up addictions is a very long, and difficult process and if you ever need support, Gaf will have your back.

Originally Posted by Ra1den

I don't see how you undermined his point at all. His main point is that porn(which means masturbating to porn, since there is no other reason to watch porn) is leading to weakened sexual performance in men(e.g. erectile dysfunction or earlier phases of it). Nothing you mentioned undermined this in any way.

If that is his main point, he never demonstrated that in his talk. The only times erectile dysfunction were mentioned was at the start when he listed a whole long series of mental illnesses and tried to spuriously claim they were caused by pornography and at the end when he was reading testimonies.

No where else did he ever, once, demonstrate that pornography leads to erectile dysfunction. And if we really want to get into that, there's a 2002 study that suggests erectile dysfunction can be correlated with riding a bicycle. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erectil...unction#Causes)

But no, I'm pretty sure you're right and it's the porn. I mean, he offered so many sources to back up his claim.

I may also point out that we need to exercise common sense and consult our own experiences and not just blindly grasp for scientific studies all the time. Anybody who has gone without porn/masturbation for significant periods can attest to the benefits it offers.

Anecdotal evidence has negligible use in the scientific field. If the guy wanted to base his point on personal experience he should not have tried to suggest that he was talking from a scientific background.
Last edited by BeesEight; 05-06-2012 at 07:39 PM.
Gospel
Parmesan et Romano
(05-06-2012, 07:39 PM)
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I can't go two days without beating my meat. Finals week is here too so whenever I get stressed out I just want to look at porn and go skeet skeet skeet
Barbacoatl
Banned
(05-06-2012, 07:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by BeesEight

Hey dude, congratulations! What you've done is really, really good and all the power to you. It sounded like this really started a complete overhaul of your life and that's something you should feel great about. Keep up the good work!

I also hope that you keep this up. Giving up addictions is a very long, and difficult process and if you ever need support, Gaf will have your back.

Thanks man, I appreciate that. It's exactly why I'm joining a support group, giving up on something your body and mind is so accustomed to is hard as balls when doing it alone. And I can see your inquisitve nature and admire it, I'm way more gullible.
Ra1den
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(05-06-2012, 07:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by BeesEight


No where else did he ever, once, demonstrate that pornography leads to erectile dysfunction. And if we really want to get into that, there's a 2002 study that suggests erectile dysfunction can be correlated with riding a bicycle. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erectil...unction#Causes)

What? Did we watch the same video? I recall him leading up to it, and mentioning it as the main thing that inspired all of these nofap groups to pop up. Towards the end of the video.

Sure he may not be able to prove it with studies, but he makes a strong case for it.

And I believe he made it clear that he didn't have studies backing up seeing he was saying, and cited the reason as being the difficulty of finding men that do not use pornography. That was one of the first things he talked about. But he said with this new no fap movement, things are changing.
Last edited by Ra1den; 05-06-2012 at 07:51 PM.
maxxpower
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(05-06-2012, 07:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ra1den

And who does this? You watch porn for the sake of masturbating. There is no other reason. You also ignored a number of the other drawbacks porn viewing has, and instead tried to nitpick and find fault with some technicalities in his definitions. Unimpressive.

I watch porn while eating some popcorn, I don't masturbate to it.
Bread
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(05-06-2012, 07:54 PM)
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I was reading this thread last week and you guys convinced me. I'm already on day 7, surprisingly I've only had urges to jerk it once or twice.

The only other huge habit I've broken is biting my fingernails, and this is going to be a lot harder and less rewarding. Good luck gentlemen.
Ra1den
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(05-06-2012, 07:59 PM)
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Originally Posted by maxxpower

I watch porn while eating some popcorn, I don't masturbate to it.

With your left hand maybe.
BeesEight
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(05-06-2012, 08:00 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ra1den

What? Did we watch the same video? I recall him leading up to it, and mentioning it as the main thing that inspired all of these nofap groups to pop up. Towards the end of the video.

Sure he may not be able to prove it with studies, but he makes a strong case for it.

And I believe he made it clear that he didn't have studies backing up seeing he was saying, and cited the reason as being the difficulty of finding men that do not use pornography. That was one of the first things he talked about. But he said with this new no fap movement, things are changing.

His whole argument was that pornography was addictive. The erectile dysfunction was a symptom of that addiction. This, however, is a misrepresentation of erectile dysfunction and disingenuous to the actual treatment methods for that disorder.

It also wouldn't be difficult to create a control group (though, technically they would be the experimental group) when making an experiment by having the participants agree to not look at pornography over the course of the study. It was a flimsy excuse that suggests he's probably not involved with scientific research than anything else.
J.W.Crazy
Member
(05-06-2012, 08:24 PM)

Originally Posted by BeesEight

Pseudoscience and You!

Why Gary Wilson is Full of Shit and Why You Shouldn't Trust Talks Beside Bookcases

For this little deconstruction, I'll be using wikipedia as my source. Nothing fancy or complex because I am both lazy and you really don't need much else to debunk the science behind the No Fap Challenge.

The Great Pornography Experiment is Gary Wilson's cute little title for a no masturbation challenge based on the premise of widespread pornography addiction afflicting our modern population. Mr. Wilson suggests that this pandemic has gone unnoticed by society at large, but he is here on his white stallion to save us all from the dreaded Internet. Too bad he's promoting nothing by shoddy science, misinterpreted results and downright intellectually dishonest conclusions.

But why is he so wrong?

Addiction

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) does not use the term addiction at all. Why is this relevant? For those that do not known, the DSM is the standard diagnostic tool used in the classification of mental disorders. It is used in the United States and abroad, though if you're situated in Europe, the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems (ISD) is probably your thing. Either way, neither recognizes addiction as a mental disorder but, instead, classify it as Substance Abuse.

Substance Abuse

“When an individual persists in use of alcohol or other drugs despite problems related to use of the substance, substance dependence may be diagnosed. Compulsive and repetitive use may result in tolerance to the effect of the drug and withdrawal symptoms when use is reduced or stopped. This, along with Substance Abuse are considered Substance Use Disorders....” - DSM-IV

A quick and dirty summary for substance dependency is that when you take a drug, it will affect the neuropathways in your body, typically by stimulating the production of certain neurotransmitters. Your body is striving for a state of equilibrium so artificially stimulating these pathways with an outside source will cause your body to produce less on its own to compensate. Thus, when you stop taking the drug, your body is producing at a deficit and you have withdrawal symptoms. This is also why you need to increase the drug in order to attain the same level of high which is known as tolerance.

Why does this not apply with masturbation? Because you are not artificially enhancing the release of dopamine in your body. Your body is able to regulate it naturally, thus lowering your libido from constant masturbation whether you wish to engage with more or seek sex with another individual. This is why you can abstain from masturbation for whatever time you want and you'll “get better.”

Why won't this work with substance dependency? Withdrawal. When a substance abuser withholds their drug, they go through physical symptoms that can make it impossible to function on a day to day basis. They need the drug in order for their body to operate. When you abstain from masturbating and porn... you get horny. These are not the same.

But, why am I so angry at Gary Wilson? Perhaps he is just mistaken about the subject or using a new definition of addiction (to be addressed later).

Alas, no. Gary Wilson is a terrible person and here is why:

Using Gary's own words: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zif0_60b3WU

“Mother Nature likes to keep a male fertilizing willing females as long as any new ones are around. Take a look at these sheep.”

Hold your horses there old chap. Firstly, 'mother nature' is not a scientifically meaningful statement. If you are trying to suggest that all animals follow this reproductive schema, then boy do I have some news for you. Emperor penguins are monogamous (at least during mating season). Some insects have an incredibly complex hierarchical structure based around a single egg laying female. So no, Gary, Mother Nature isn't trying to get a male boning every pretty thing with boobs and a tempting pair of thighs. You can not compare behaviours across species and hope to have a scientifically sound conclusion drawn about humans because physiologically we are all different. That is why drug research has to work its way through multiple species before it can receive certification for human testing before it can be considered sound for general use. We don't hibernate, we don't have mating seasons and your observations of other animals "binging mechanisms" is woefully misleading.


“Without the Coolidge effect, there would be no Internet porn.”

Porn stashes seem to say otherwise, Mr. Wilson. I think you're forgetting that the Coolidge effect is temporary in that the refractory period will end even with the same partner. Also, in human males, the Coolidge effect is attributed solely to the inability for a male to engage in sex. It does not refer to a decrease in interest.

“Arousal addiction symptoms are easily associated with this long list of terrifying mental disorders.”

Mr. Wilson, please take a course that examines addiction. You will find that substance abuse has a high co-morbidity with a host of other psychological problems. If you're going to try and suggest that addiction causes these other disorders then I hope you have some research to back that up. Oh wait, you don't? Quelle surprise.

“This is also why 4 out of 5 Americans are overweight and about half of those are obese. That is, addicted to food. In contrast to natural rewards, drugs such as alcohol and cocaine will only hook about ten to fifteen percent of users whether they're humans or animals.”

Holy fuck! This is actual outright dishonesty. Any cursory glance into the subject demonstrates that the weight issue in America IS NOT attributed to food addiction. In fact, food addiction isn't even a thing. The closest recognized condition is called Compulsive Overeating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_addiction) and it is not found in four out of five Americans. In fact, it is about as prevalent as any other addiction. A quick google search shows a study that finds 1% of women in the United States have a binge-eating disorder and 30% of women seeking treatment for obesity suffer the the disorder (http://www.pale-reflections.com/ed_stats.asp).

So, no - “natural rewards” are not more addictive than drugs. No one has tried to argue this because it is factually wrong.

“I apologize for filling up this slide on brain studies for Internet addiction. Just notice the dates.”

Yes, let's notice the dates. The earliest is in 2010 with the vast majority published in 2011. Why is that? Well, the American Society of Addiction Medicine released a new definition of addiction that is not accepted by the DSM or ISD. This appears to be where Mr. Wilson gets his definition. However, this is certainly not a widely accepted and furthermore, it's criteria for Internet addiction only shows a prevalence rate of about 10%. Which, oddly enough, is the same for cocaine. This is hardly the widespread phenomenon that Mr. Wilson is purporting AND their treatment of the disorder varies quite wildly from Mr. Wilson's abstinence program. So even if we accept this premise, there is still something very wrong with Mr. Wilson's assertions. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_addiction)

“Here's a group on reddit.com... Fapping is slang for solo sex but what they really mean is giving up porn.”

Here's the thing, it's not the porn that's the issue but the excessive masturbation. Oddly enough, that's not Mr. Wilson's point. If you look at porn but never masturbate, you will get the EXACT same results as people that don't look at porn and don't masturbate. And this is obvious, since by abstaining from masturbating, you're building up testosterone in your system. Testosterone has a well documented effect of increasing libido, self-confidence and the whole list of positive effects that Mr. Wilson attributes to abstaining from porn.

“I'd like to conclude with a wish.”

So would I Mr. Wilson. I wish that people who adopt scientific rhetoric actually hold themselves to scientific rigour and methodology. Instead of standing by a bookshelf, or perhaps throwing on a lab coat, how about you read some studies next time and educate yourself on the topic. Maybe, just maybe, we can cut down on the bullshit.

Disclaimer - Please note that if I did not address something in his speech it was not because it was accurate but because I got tired of looking up all his nonsense and demonstrating its wrong. There's actually very little in his whole spiel that is correct. Also note I didn't even look at the positive effects of masturbating which is correlated with a decrease in prostate cancer and other effects.

A lot of this is way off base. A lot of misunderstandings, a lot of ignorance. The whole bolded section is mind boggling. "Mother Nature" is in pretty common use among scientists of all fields as a catch all term for everything from evolution to weather phenomenon. The fact that you present animal testing as evidence against comparisons between species is stunning. Insects and birds? That disproves a possible similarity between two mammals? Pseudoscience is what you're engaging in.

Your understanding of addiction is supremely flawed. Relying on the DSM for definitions is nearly useless, it's highly political and out of date before it's published, and then using those definitions to refute newer studies is completely backwards.

There is just too much to go through. Sentence by sentence you have glaring misunderstandings.

I don't agree with 100% of what Gary Wilson says, and as a scientist I'm sure he'd admit that some of it may be little more than conjecture, but it's conjecture based on real, bleeding edge science in the fields of Psychology and Physiology. Addiction is Psychological at it's core. Without that element it would be nearly harmless. Physical/chemical addictions end fairly quickly after withdrawal (which is not at all what you make it out to be), people wouldn't go back to addiction 10 years later if it were only chemical.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by BeesEight

His whole argument was that pornography was addictive. The erectile dysfunction was a symptom of that addiction. This, however, is a misrepresentation of erectile dysfunction and disingenuous to the actual treatment methods for that disorder.

Again, WOW! Erectile dysfunction is literally anything that causes irregular or abnormal sexual functions in males with regards to the ability to achieve and maintain an erection. There are in fact many treatments that have varying degrees of success because there is no one singular cause. His actual point was to illuminate the difference between the particular ED faced by older men and those in their 20s. That older men seem to be affected in a purely physical way while for younger men medications do not work as effectively suggesting it might be psychological.
Last edited by J.W.Crazy; 05-06-2012 at 09:55 PM.
Johnny Cage In The Shower
Banned
(05-06-2012, 08:34 PM)

Originally Posted by BeesEight

His whole argument was that pornography was addictive. The erectile dysfunction was a symptom of that addiction. This, however, is a misrepresentation of erectile dysfunction and disingenuous to the actual treatment methods for that disorder.

I'm not sure he said that pornography alone was the cause of ED. His entire Talk was based on the argument of men turning to porn to satisfy their sexual needs. He proved how porn can be highly addictive and a never ending hole "a novelty" theses days compared to decades ago. Since the high speed internet streaming age, the novelty factor is multiplied by the thousands and it's just too easy to rely on porn for masturbation, the culprit to erectile dysfunction is excessive masturbation, not porn, and the culprit in excessive (a lot more than necessary) masturbation is (never ending stream of) porn.
Gazzawa
Member
(05-06-2012, 08:40 PM)
Gazzawa's Avatar
The naysayers make some good points.
But still gonna go the full 9 yards on this one.
If it doesnt work out i'll tell everyone its false and this is a lie.
watchin sexay pronz has no long term benefits in my mind.

i think this might be a valid time to point this out:
HATERS GONNA HATE!
Master Milk
Member
(05-06-2012, 08:43 PM)
Master Milk's Avatar

Originally Posted by Bread

I was reading this thread last week and you guys convinced me. I'm already on day 7, surprisingly I've only had urges to jerk it once or twice.

The only other huge habit I've broken is biting my fingernails, and this is going to be a lot harder and less rewarding. Good luck gentlemen.

Most here seem to find it very rewarding, once they actually make a decent amount of progress. Hopefully the same is true for you.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
(05-06-2012, 09:57 PM)
RatskyWatsky's Avatar

Originally Posted by BeesEight

The only one I can think of is the perceived distortions of the role and image of women

Doesn't porn also distort the image and role of men as well?
Naked Snake
(05-07-2012, 02:36 AM)
Naked Snake's Avatar

Originally Posted by J.W.Crazy

A lot of this is way off base. A lot of misunderstandings, a lot of ignorance. The whole bolded section is mind boggling. "Mother Nature" is in pretty common use among scientists of all fields as a catch all term for everything from evolution to weather phenomenon. The fact that you present animal testing as evidence against comparisons between species is stunning. Insects and birds? That disproves a possible similarity between two mammals? Pseudoscience is what you're engaging in.

Your understanding of addiction is supremely flawed. Relying on the DSM for definitions is nearly useless, it's highly political and out of date before it's published, and then using those definitions to refute newer studies is completely backwards.

There is just too much to go through. Sentence by sentence you have glaring misunderstandings.

I don't agree with 100% of what Gary Wilson says, and as a scientist I'm sure he'd admit that some of it may be little more than conjecture, but it's conjecture based on real, bleeding edge science in the fields of Psychology and Physiology. Addiction is Psychological at it's core. Without that element it would be nearly harmless. Physical/chemical addictions end fairly quickly after withdrawal (which is not at all what you make it out to be), people wouldn't go back to addiction 10 years later if it were only chemical.

EDIT:

Again, WOW! Erectile dysfunction is literally anything that causes irregular or abnormal sexual functions in males with regards to the ability to achieve and maintain an erection. There are in fact many treatments that have varying degrees of success because there is no one singular cause. His actual point was to illuminate the difference between the particular ED faced by older men and those in their 20s. That older men seem to be affected in a purely physical way while for younger men medications do not work as effectively suggesting it might be psychological.

Thank you, for posting what I was thinking while reading his post.
Surface of Me
Member
(05-07-2012, 07:01 AM)
Surface of Me's Avatar

Originally Posted by Gospel

I can't go two days without beating my meat. Finals week is here too so whenever I get stressed out I just want to look at porn and go skeet skeet skeet

This, so much. I was going to partake in this experiment, but then finals. I'll try it after this week, I'm also joining a gym in about a week, so who knows what the future holds.
Suairyu
Banned
(05-07-2012, 11:07 AM)
Suairyu's Avatar
I have been in an 14 hour daze of sex and sleep.

A hotel cleaner just walked in on the last session.

Will rejoin the 90 day pilgrimage tomorrow.
Atramental
Banned
(05-07-2012, 04:38 PM)
Er...

It seems like I've killed off my sex drive somehow. This morning I didn't even get morning wood and nothing really turns me on sexually these last couple of days. >_>

I've been doing a ton of exercise as of late so I wonder if that has something to do with it.
Last edited by Atramental; 05-07-2012 at 04:45 PM.
Suairyu
Banned
(05-07-2012, 05:32 PM)
Suairyu's Avatar

Originally Posted by Atramental

Er...

It seems like I've killed off my sex drive somehow. This morning I didn't even get morning wood and nothing really turns me on sexually these last couple of days. >_>

I've been doing a ton of exercise as of late so I wonder if that has something to do with it.

How many days have you been without pmo?
BeesEight
Member
(05-07-2012, 05:41 PM)
BeesEight's Avatar

Originally Posted by J.W.Crazy

A lot of this is way off base. A lot of misunderstandings, a lot of ignorance. The whole bolded section is mind boggling. "Mother Nature" is in pretty common use among scientists of all fields as a catch all term for everything from evolution to weather phenomenon. The fact that you present animal testing as evidence against comparisons between species is stunning. Insects and birds? That disproves a possible similarity between two mammals? Pseudoscience is what you're engaging in.

I'm sorry, of all the papers I've read, Mother Nature was never mentioned in any of them. Maybe I should speak to my lab supervisor about that.

Your understanding of addiction is supremely flawed. Relying on the DSM for definitions is nearly useless, it's highly political and out of date before it's published, and then using those definitions to refute newer studies is completely backwards.

You really can't be serious.

Here, let me put it this way. I have B.Sc.H. I've worked in an addiction lab, assisted in a Master's thesis and done my own experimentations. Did I use some short hand? Of course - because I'm not addressing a scientific community here. But what you're saying is completely false.

And the discussions on addiction are hardly universally accepted. This is my point. The concept of Video Game Addiction is not a recognized affliction but Gary Wilson throws it out there as if it's just your regular thing.

But that's okay, because I disagree with 100% of what you said. The difference between you and me is I back up my arguments instead of just making bold statements. But whatever, what do I care whether you blindly accept every argument that wraps itself in flimsy science and methodology?

Edit:

Originally Posted by J.W.Crazy

EDIT:

Again, WOW! Erectile dysfunction is literally anything that causes irregular or abnormal sexual functions in males with regards to the ability to achieve and maintain an erection. There are in fact many treatments that have varying degrees of success because there is no one singular cause. His actual point was to illuminate the difference between the particular ED faced by older men and those in their 20s. That older men seem to be affected in a purely physical way while for younger men medications do not work as effectively suggesting it might be psychological.

The Coolidge Effect is not considered a cause of ED. So no, not everything that prevents males from getting an erection is considered a cause of ED. 'Exhausting your libido' is not considered an abnormal cause for your poor performance with women.
Last edited by BeesEight; 05-07-2012 at 07:59 PM.
Arnie
Member
(05-07-2012, 05:41 PM)
Arnie's Avatar
I'm five days into this and it's extremely challenging. I do feel like my sex drive is skyrocketing though, and I suppose that's a good thing. But man, I'm not sure starving myself of masturbation is the right way to go about it.
Atramental
Banned
(05-07-2012, 05:43 PM)

Originally Posted by Suairyu

How many days have you been without pmo?

I'm on day 7.
Suairyu
Banned
(05-07-2012, 05:47 PM)
Suairyu's Avatar

Originally Posted by Atramental

I'm on day 7.

huh. Very quick turn around on death of sex drive. Still, don't complain. It's an advantage.
Beer Monkey
Member
(05-07-2012, 05:58 PM)
Had the best sex I've had in years Saturday night after 16 days abstaining from any pornography. I'm not ED, but everything was more powerful.

EDIT: this article talks about reward circuits normalizing after as little as 14 days, though it's about food/overeating: http://www.reuniting.info/node/3652
Last edited by Beer Monkey; 05-07-2012 at 06:01 PM.
BeesEight
Member
(05-07-2012, 06:20 PM)
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"Gary's passion is neuroscience, and he spends many hours scanning the Web and integrating the latest discoveries. As adjunct faculty at Southern Oregon University, he has taught anatomy and physiology labs. He has also taught anatomy, physiology, kinesiology, and pathology at vocational schools in California and Oregon. He attended nursing school, and has continued to take university courses in microbiology, cell biology, immunology and genetics." - http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/about-us

Some background on our good boy Mr. Wilson. His credentials include having an avid interest in neuroscience and attending nursing school. You'll forgive me if I question his expertise in the field considering the most he's done in higher level education is teach the lab component of anatomy and physiology courses.

Curiously, it doesn't appear like he's taken a psychology course or felt it necessary to include them on his website about psychology despite listing his biology courses. Interesting.
ChuyMasta
Member
(05-07-2012, 06:31 PM)
ChuyMasta's Avatar
OK! Day zero again. But let me tell you what happened.

Had pretty amazing sex with the missus this Saturday. She caught me looking at her several times when we were watching the boxing match at our friends house and also how I kept caressing her wait and back wherever we walked. She did notice I spent more time caressing her than usual. She loved how I kissed her and pretty much everything that lead to the sex.

INTERESTINGLY enough though, she also saw way more pimples on my back. I am usually very clean. I almost want to say this is a byproduct of me not jerking off for a week.

Any experts in the subject?

Then I fapped sunday evening thinking about all the great stuff I did to her.
FELT GOOD.
/brag
Naked Snake
(05-07-2012, 07:10 PM)
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Day 7 for me too, been relatively easy so far. I did get the urge a few times but it wasn't hard to suppress.
Slycoopr
Junior Member
(05-07-2012, 07:16 PM)
Several months ago I restrained myself from watching porn or masturbating for over 3 weeks, and sometime between this I was standing in line behind this beautiful woman at the bank. The urge I felt to strike conversation in hopes of mating with her was ridiculous, it was one of the most tense feelings I've ever experienced.
Zeouterlimits
Member
(05-07-2012, 08:40 PM)
Zeouterlimits's Avatar
I'm down, feeling empty and want to fap dang namit!
#temperTantrum

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